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[mysticwhip]

I don't consider Walt a bad guy yet, just a bit of an asshole.

In regards to the most recent episode I thought it was really pathetic when Walt tried to guilt trip Jessie into killing Gus. Asking him to kill Gale was different since he was about to be offed but with Gus it's a little bit more unpredictable. I'd rather he have went about it a different way instead of bringing up the past to get a rile of of Jessie but Walt is a desperate man.

 

[Speevy]

I don't consider Walt a bad guy yet, just a bit of an asshole.

He's turned an otherwise harmless drug dealer into a killer, caused the death of a girl, murdered multiple people who he himself provoked, put his wife and children in danger, contributed to the addiction and destruction of who knows how many lives through cooking crystal meth, contributed to organized crime, and very nearly created the circumstances where his brother in law would be killed.

 

[mysticwhip]

He's turned an otherwise harmless drug dealer into a killer, caused the death of a girl, murdered multiple people who he himself provoked, put his wife and children in danger, contributed to the addiction and destruction of who knows how many lives through cooking crystal meth, contributed to organized crime, and very nearly created the circumstances where his brother in law would be killed.

All to protect himself, boost his ego, and protect his family. Some of that stuff is indirectly caused by him so i'm not too bothered by it. I just don't consider him to be bad guy. He isn't sinister, he's remorseful. he's just an egocentric asshole who fucked up and is trying to deal with it.

 

[ruuk]

All to protect himself, boost his ego, and protect his family. Some of that stuff is indirectly caused by him so i'm not too bothered by it. I just don't consider him to be bad guy. He isn't sinister, he's remorseful. he's just an egocentric asshole who fucked up and is trying to deal with it.

He is a bad guy.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

This was when he crossed my line:

EDIT: Wasn't there a point this season so far where he says "I'm not the bad guy."?

 

[maharg]

When has he ever expressed genuine remorse?

I think the show demonstrated his lack in the scene where he bullshitted an apology to Skylar and then changed tone 180 degrees to an angry "so how was THAT?"

And again with the protect his family. He's never done that even once. All he's ever done is put them in danger.

 

[mysticwhip]

He is a bad guy.

nah

 

[mysticwhip]

When has he ever expressed genuine remorse?

I think the show demonstrated his lack in the scene where he bullshitted an apology to Skylar and then changed tone 180 degrees to an angry "so how was THAT?"

And again with the protect his family. He's never done that even once. All he's ever done is put them in danger.

Well when he let Jane die, there was definitely remorse in his face, but it's not like he can openly say ''Oh od no why did I let Jane diiiieee?''

 

[Speevy]

I believe the writers of Breaking Bad created the characters of Walt and Jesse to make a statement about how society views upstanding citizens vs. "criminal scum". Walt still teaches high school Biology and eats dinner with his family while he's making reprehensible decisions in other areas of his life. Meanwhile you have this character Jesse who you see first as a lowlife drug dealer but he actually speaks for the audience. He has a lot of problems, but even still his journey and logic are more similar to ours than the remorseless selfishness Walt exhibits.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Well when he let Jane die, there was definitely remorse in his face, but it's not like he can openly say ''Oh od no why did I let Jane diiiieee?''

He was never remorseful. In fact he is now using her death to manipulate Jesse

 

[Spotless Mind]

The last 2 weeks have been outstanding. Hank laying everything out perfectly was one of the most satisfying scenes in the show.

I do think that letting Jane die was a pretty terrible thing to do, and something that I wouldn't do personally, but he didn't actually kill her. He just didn't save her. If it works for Batman...

Jane was sleeping on her side spooning Jesse before Walt came in and knocked her on her back...

 

[Puddles]

what moral boundary hasn't he crossed yet? man some of you guys are tough cookies. At this rate he's going to have to rape an entire school full of children and then shoot his balls off and smear the blood on a church wall....

...and Puddles still won't know why everybody thinks he's a bad guy lol

No way he's a "bad guy" at this point. Tony Montana is a "bad guy". Macbeth is a "bad guy". Walter White isn't, at least not yet. He's a good guy who has done some shitty things and is in a horrible situation.

If he fucked Ted, THEN I'd agree that he's a bad guy.

He's turned an otherwise harmless drug dealer into a killer, caused the death of a girl, murdered multiple people who he himself provoked, put his wife and children in danger, contributed to the addiction and destruction of who knows how many lives through cooking crystal meth, contributed to organized crime, and very nearly created the circumstances where his brother in law would be killed.

Jesse had already attempted to murder the two dealers who killed that little kid WELL before Walt sent him to kill Gale.

And we've already established that the murders that Walt himself committed were justifiable.

 

[RaidenZR]

Lost almost seems campy in comparison to Breaking Bad.

Almost?
o_0

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

what moral boundary hasn't he crossed yet? man some of you guys are tough cookies. At this rate he's going to have to rape an entire school full of children and then shoot his balls off and smear the blood on a church wall....

...and Puddles still won't know why everybody thinks he's a bad guy lol

It's so funny...

No way he's a "bad guy" at this point. Tony Montana is a "bad guy". Macbeth is a "bad guy". Walter White isn't, at least not yet. He's a good guy who has done some shitty things and is in a horrible situation.

If he fucked Ted, THEN I'd agree that he's a bad guy.

... because it's so true.

 

[Puddles]

It's so funny...


... because it's so true.

I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Walt should be classified as a villain protagonist.

 

[maharg]

Macbeth is a "bad guy".

Actually, I think Shakespeare's Macbeth is a pretty good analogy for Walt. Both prideful, both set on their path with the intent of improving their family's lot in life, but in the end both their family and themselves are undone by their callous treatment of the people around them. Both utterly unrepentant for their wrongdoing. Actually, Macbeth is really more repentant than Walt.

The big difference is that Lady Macbeth practically shoved Macbeth into his treasonous act, while Walt did his horrible things entirely on his own motivation.

I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Walt should be classified as a villain protagonist.

Do you have a compelling argument why he should be considered a "good guy"? I haven't seen one yet. At least not one that's actually supported by the text.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Walt should be classified as a villain protagonist.

Then at this point you never will. Crash two planes together, let a woman die, refuse to go to the cops and thus force a kid into murder.

There's not much left.

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Walt should be classified as a villain protagonist.

There are pages and pages of explanation why a murdering, drug making, manipulative, egotistical, psychopath is the very definition of being a "bad guy".

For some reason you keep dismissing it and insiting he's just a nice guy who has fallen on hard times. I'm almost certain you have no ability to accurately judge characters or situations.

 

[Puddles]

There are pages and pages of explanation why a murdering, drug making, manipulative, egotistical, psychopath is the very definition of being a "bad guy".

There are pages and pages of explanation for why My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is one of the best animated series of this century, but I'm not having any of that either.

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

You could easily do a counter argument to that.

No counter argument to the argument that Walter is one of the most horrible characters on TV has so far been valid. Why? Because he just is.

If Breaking Bad was a book and this was an English Literature class you'd get an F. You're misinterpreting it that badly.

And with that, I'm done. It's like talking to a wall.

 

[mysticwhip]

Walt might have endangered his family by being too proud to accept money and delve into the drug world but I just can't see that being evil. It's just a man trying to provide for his family the way he knows how, not by accepting pity money but working for it. Sure his motive isn't always his family but deep in the core of it all that's all he cars about.

 

[Spotless Mind]

It's not something i want to see, but i'm kind of morbidly curious to see audience reaction if Walt physically abused Skylar. I actually thought it was a possibility around the I.F.T. episode last season. As disgusting as it sounds, i wouldn't be surprised to see people still defending his actions.

 

[mysticwhip]

Does anyone of a clip of Walt talking to his previous girlfriend(the one who works at Grey Matter) about covering for him? the one where he mumbles ''fuck you''.
That was so intense.

 

[Puddles]

Do you have a compelling argument why he should be considered a "good guy"? I haven't seen one yet. At least not one that's actually supported by the text.

He's a good father, has tried to be a good husband, has done his best to protect his family and maintain the lives they have without exposing them to the severity of the situation he's in (which would be totally undone if he went into witness protection), he's helping Hank with his medical bills, he's tried to help Jesse stay clean, he risked his life to save Jesse's, he hasn't killed an innocent person yet (letting Jane die is the ONLY questionable decision in this area, and we've established that he didn't "kill" her), and he's a pretty decent fellow in his everyday life.

A villain would have let Jesse get killed by the dealers. A villain might have even handed him over to Gus while it was still possible to escape with his own life. A villain would just say fuck it and leave Skyler and Walt Jr. forever and go snort coke with $100 bills.

He's still way too loving, protective and empathetic to be classified as a villain.

And with that, I'm done. It's like talking to a wall.

More like playing tennis with a wall. You're minor league.

 

[maharg]

He doesn't give two shits about his family. He cares about them as a status symbol or possession, perhaps, but not about them as people. He constantly *says* that's what he cares about, but his actions speak far louder than words.

He wasn't offered pity money. He was offered a job that he, as far as we know, probably bailed on because his pride was hurt years before.

Walt has *always* had the option of a legitimate career. Always. But that wasn't good enough for him.

Pride is the only thing he cares about or understands.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Then at this point you never will. Crash two planes together, let a woman die, refuse to go to the cops and thus force a kid into murder.

There's not much left.

While that is indirectly his fault, you can't pin that on Walt, the others are fair.

 

[Puddles]

He doesn't give two shits about his family.

This is probably the fundamental disagreement that causes all other disagreements.

I think he genuinely loves Walt Jr. and still loves Skyler. When he called her a few episodes ago just to tell her he loved her because he wasn't sure if he'd make it through that day or not, I don't think he was being manipulative. I think that came from a very real place inside of him.


Anyway, you guys go ahead and keep watching Breaking Bad, featuring despicable villain protagonist Walter White, and I'll keep watching Breaking Bad, featuring fascinating anti-hero who wants everything to work out well for the people he loves, but keeps getting shoved into increasingly horrible situations Walter White. We'll all enjoy the show the same amount, I suspect, and we can all agree that Walt Jr. is a pimp, Mike is a badass, Jesse is an amazing character, and that fucking Ted is not something that anyone should do at any time.

 

[maharg]

For the record, I don't really count the airplane crash as Walt's responsibility in any meaningful way. I hold him fully responsible for Jane, but the airplane crash is really just kind of a hamfisted way of dramatizing Walt's destructive influence on the world around him.

 

[mysticwhip]

He doesn't give two shits about his family. He cares about them as a status symbol or possession, perhaps, but not about them as people. He constantly *says* that's what he cares about, but his actions speak far louder than words.

He wasn't offered pity money. He was offered a job that he, as far as we know, probably bailed on because his pride was hurt years before.

Walt has *always* had the option of a legitimate career. Always. But that wasn't good enough for him.

Pride is the only thing he cares about or understands.

The only reason he was offered that job was because Skylar told them about his cancer and they felt sorry for him. I wouldn't consider that to be a legitimate career. You're right that his pride was hurt because apparently Walt feels that they screwed him out of a company that he helped build.

If he didn't give a fuck about his family he wouldn't of called and left that message on their answering machine when he thought that Mike was going to kill Jessie.

 

[maharg]

The only reason he was offered that job was because Skylar told them about his cancer and they felt sorry for him. I wouldn't consider that to be a legitimate career. You're right that his pride was hurt because apparently Walt feels that they screwed him out of a company that he helped build.

If he didn't give a fuck about his family he wouldn't of called and left that message on their answering machine when he thought that Mike was going to kill Jessie.

It was a job he left. It's not like he was fired from it. He co-founded that company. We have no reason to think that they held any kind of animosity towards him (except, maybe, for abandoning them) or wouldn't have taken him back at any point up to then. Walt's pride hurt him and his family LONG before the show started. It's a pattern that's buried right deep into his character.

And regardless of that, he's a fucking brilliant chemist who's work helped get a nobel prize. At any point in all of this he could have had a normal career, with Grey Matter or otherwise. But then he'd have to share credit with someone he might not consider an inferior, and that would just be unacceptable for Walter White.

Incidentally, we still don't know why he left Grey Matter or his girlfriend at the time. I sure hope they resolve that at some point.

 

[mysticwhip]

It was a job he left. It's not like he was fired from it. He co-founded that company. We have no reason to think that they held any kind of animosity towards him (except, maybe, for abandoning them) or wouldn't have taken him back at any point up to then. Walt's pride hurt him and his family LONG before the show started. It's a pattern that's buried right deep into his character.

And regardless of that, he's a fucking brilliant chemist who's work helped get a nobel prize. At any point in all of this he could have had a normal career, with Grey Matter or otherwise. But then he'd have to share credit with someone he might not consider an inferior, and that would just be unacceptable for Walter White.

Incidentally, we still don't know why he left Grey Matter or his girlfriend at the time. I sure hope they resolve that at some point.

It seemed to me that he left the job that wasn't even there but no one can say for sure since the whole Grey matter incident is vague.

 

[bigboss370]

For the record, I don't really count the airplane crash as Walt's responsibility in any meaningful way. I hold him fully responsible for Jane, but the airplane crash is really just kind of a hamfisted way of dramatizing Walt's destructive influence on the world around him.

you hold Walt fully responsible for her death? why? i mean yeah he could have prevented it but you don't hold Pinkman or herself accountable for her fate at all? Walt was just protecting Pinkman by doing nothing.

 

[markot]

you hold Walt fully responsible for her death? why? i mean yeah he could have prevented it but you don't hold Pinkman or herself accountable for her fate at all? Walt was just protecting Pinkman by doing nothing.

She is obviously to blame too. But Walt did, if I remember, at least partially make her roll onto her back so she started chocking. And I think that he may have been protecting himself over Pinkman in not helping her.

Incidentally, we still don't know why he left Grey Matter or his girlfriend at the time. I sure hope they resolve that at some point.

Yeah, it was abit too abrupt. He felt like he got screwed over, but thats about all we know >.< Would be nice to see a flashback later on, maybe when he is feeling like he is going to be screwed over again, wouldnt be too surprised if he felt like Jesse was being groomed to take over production later on, he is no walter white but he has worked with him long enough to be a decent knock off I guess..

 

[Black Mamba]

People seem to be conveniently ignoring that Walt abandoned Jesse the moment the opportunity was possible only to come crawling back when his wife forced him to do it to save her brother-in-law. Yes, he also cares for Jesse in some respects, too, but he's pretty fucking selfish.

Walt is a mix of a bad guy and a greek tragedy protagonist whose hubris is his downfall.


I think the mistake people are making here is those that don't think he's bad ignore that being bad doesn't mean he stops being human. He is still capable of love, remorse, and affection. It doesn't change the fact that, at his core, his actions are wrong. We should not be rooting for him to succeed because he is doing bad things.

His great downfall to come will be well deserved.

But it's okay. The rest of you will come around after Flynn is killed.

Spoiler

Don't say I didn't warn you.

you hold Walt fully responsible for her death? why? i mean yeah he could have prevented it but you don't hold Pinkman or herself accountable for her fate at all? Walt was just protecting Pinkman by doing nothing.

I do. he moved her which caused her to choke. So what that she was high? She took the necessary precaution to prevent death, something Walt disrupted and then let her die.

 

[Zeliard]

I think it's largely the terminal cancer that drives much of what Walt does. He may have started off with good intentions - to provide for his family - but at some point that clearly stopped being the case. He's hooked on the act of breaking bad - after everything that's happened in his life, he wants revenge against the world.

Walt knows he doesn't have much time left, and with the mess he's gotten himself and others into, his actions are becoming progressively riskier and more desperate. There's only one way this can end if Walt doesn't turn himself around a full 180°, but even if he changes his behavior, he's still going to die of lung cancer. That may be the biggest obstacle towards Walt taking positive steps forward.

 

[Black Mamba]

I think it's largely the terminal cancer that drives much of what Walt does. He may have started off with good intentions - to provide for his family - but at some point that clearly stopped being the case. He's hooked on the act of breaking bad - after everything that's happened in his life, he wants revenge against the world.

Walt knows he doesn't have much time left, and with the mess he's gotten himself and others into, his actions are becoming progressively riskier and more desperate. There's only one way this can end if Walt doesn't turn himself around a full 180°, but even if he changes his behavior, he's still going to die of lung cancer. That may be the biggest obstacle towards Walt taking positive steps forward.

Don't think I completely agree, here. I think he panicked and cooked meth and liked it. Terminal cancer is his crutch.

Cooking meth and being "in control" of it is his addiction, now. It's what he needs. I think that if Walt was never diagnosed with cancer, but instead found himself in debt he'd have done the same thing and would be in this same position, now.

Time left wouldn't change a thing. My view, at least.

 

[Black-Wind]

I only started watching the series after I read the thread praising White's actor last week.

... Haven't been able to pull myself away from the series. Didn't want to come into this thread until I was COMPLETELY up-to-date on the show.

LOVE THIS SHOW!!!

I don't think White is as bad as some here think.
But its 4 in the morning so I guess I will explain later.

 

[Zeliard]

Don't think I completely agree, here. I think he panicked and cooked meth and liked it. Terminal cancer is his crutch.

Cooking meth and being "in control" of it is his addiction, now. It's what he needs. I think that if Walt was never diagnosed with cancer, but instead found himself in debt he'd have done the same thing and would be in this same position, now.

Time left wouldn't change a thing. My view, at least.

Well, my point is that it's what led him to start breaking bad; what drove him to it in the first place. That was the origin. As I noted, other things in his life definitely played a part, such as his apparently being stepped on career-wise for much of his life. I feel the cancer was basically the final straw.

It's terminal, so he looked into the abyss, and he saw darkness. I disagree that being in debt would have had the same effect; it had to have been something as desperate and threatening as terminal lung cancer. There is little doubt that he enjoys the act of cooking meth and takes great pride in it, ultimately feeling that's his calling.

 

[Black Mamba]

there's no disagreement from me that terminal cancer was the causi belli for him, but i don't buy it's the "why." He had an out early on and declined. Since that moment in season 1, the cancer has been irrelevant to his reasoning.

It would be hard to debate whether something like debt would see him in this position now, but based on his actions and thinking process, it's what I believe to be true. Remember, it was the money and not leaving anything but debt behind for Skyler that drove him to cook meth.



back to others regarding him not being bad. I think that's how Gilligan was smart in demonstrating the show.

We were introduced to Walter as a good teacher who seemed to care for his students. He was a family man and a hard worker. He quietly dealt with a somewhat obnoxious brother-in-law of his wife, his wife was preggars, and he was a formerly good chemist who is somewhat humbled by what life has thrown at him.

He's presented to us as a good, everyday middle-class man struggling to cope with being insignificant and then BAM, lung cancer when he didn't even smoke.

This is why some people here think he's still good. It's hard to take all that and strip away at it piece by piece because we don't want to believe it's so easy to go from good all-american dad to piece of shit scum. And that's the brilliance of this show.

There should be no doubt that he is just that. But because of how we were presented Walter, how his process of "breaking bad" has gone, and his moments of humanity mixed in, people are still in denial.

Just like meth addicts. Gilligan is separating the addicts (viewers who are in denial about him being bad) from those that are not (those that know he is bad).

 

[markot]

Was it really an 'out' though?

If he did feel screwed over by these people... then I can see why he refused their pity money. It just rubs salt into old wounds.

 

[maharg]

Walt would feel screwed by a fly landing on his shirt.

He can't stand to share credit, or to have anyone believe he is anything less than brilliant (made even worse by the fact that he is). I think it's far more likely that Walt's overinflated ego is what made him bail on Grey Matter, not some horrible thing done to him.

 

[mysticwhip]

Speaking of a Fly, Walt has has always hated them.

 

[Puddles]

I don't think White is as bad as some here think.
But its 4 in the morning so I guess I will explain later.

No need to explain, dude.

The majority of the rational posters in this thread agree with you

He's presented to us as a good, everyday middle-class man struggling to cope with being insignificant and then BAM, lung cancer when he didn't even smoke.

This is why some people here think he's still good. It's hard to take all that and strip away at it piece by piece because we don't want to believe it's so easy to go from good all-american dad to piece of shit scum. And that's the brilliance of this show.

There should be no doubt that he is just that. But because of how we were presented Walter, how his process of "breaking bad" has gone, and his moments of humanity mixed in, people are still in denial.

But there is doubt, a whole lot of doubt, and not so much denial.

 

[Black Mamba]

Was it really an 'out' though?

If he did feel screwed over by these people... then I can see why he refused their pity money. It just rubs salt into old wounds.

Of course it's an out. Since when is free money not. Poor baby, his pride is hit.


it's okay to have pride and everything, but when the other option is cooking and selling meth and staying involved in a lifestyle where you've killed people and are highly likely to be killed or have your family killed, you take the fucking out even if it means he had to have sex with Ted.

You cannot argue that the 'out,' wasn't really one without going through all kinds of delusional rationale. But that's not your fault, because the show was cleverly constructed as to make you not realize how delusional it is without actively thinking about it. Kind of how it takes you half of the Sopranos to realize "holy shit, I am rooting for Tony Soprano, WTF."

No need to explain, dude.

The majority of the rational posters in this thread agree with you.

Fair warning. Anger is the next stage when you leave denial.

 

[Trent Strong]

I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Walt should be classified as a villain protagonist.

He makes meth.

 

[Zeliard]

there's no disagreement from me that terminal cancer was the causi belli for him, but i don't buy it's the "why." He had an out early on and declined. Since that moment in season 1, the cancer has been irrelevant to his reasoning.

It would be hard to debate whether something like debt would see him in this position now, but based on his actions and thinking process, it's what I believe to be true. Remember, it was the money and not leaving anything but debt behind for Skyler that drove him to cook meth.

I'm not sure if the cancer still isn't significant. It's the primary reason he became unhinged in the first place. The more he gets himself into shit, the more things pile on, but ultimately you're still looking a sick man who doesn't have a great deal of time to live. He's angry at the world for what he feels it's done to him, and the cancer was what made him go "okay fuck it."

He has all the money in the world now, so that's clearly not a motivator. He's hooked on cooking meth, and that's a big key. But why? It isn't just because he's excellent at it, though that's certainly a primary reason, given his pride. More critically, I believe he knows full-well he's doing something incredibly wrong and immoral, but that he consciously does not give a shit because he's too angry at everyone, and he nets some form of "fuck you all" satisfaction out of it. There is probably some self-loathing there as well, but he primarily takes it all out on everyone else, not considering or caring about the consequences.

 

[Discotheque]

He makes meth.

lol pretty much. God damn it's as simple as that and yet we're still having this argument at season 4.

God forbid Puddles watches The Wire. He's probably gonna be so conflicted when they introduce Omar.

 

[Puddles]

He makes meth.

I said "compelling argument".

Fair warning. Anger is the next stage when you leave denial.

You guys are trying to shoehorn this show into your neat little black/white dichotomies, and I'm the one going through the Five Stages?

 

[mysticwhip]

He makes meth.

Skylar fucked Ted.

 

[Black Mamba]

But there is doubt, a whole lot of doubt, and not so much denial.

There is only denial.

He has put his family in harm's way against their will.

He has murdered.

He tried to have sex with his boss (just like Skyler!)

He stole from school.

He stole from a business (the stuff that makes it blue, name escapes me).

Etc etc etc.

There is no doubt, only denial.