CyclopsRock
Member
"Come on, Mark! Germans? Sausages? Do I have to spell it out? The sausage-munching Boche. Fritz, the bratwurst guzzler."
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Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016
- Thread starter QuicheFontaine
- Start date
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Yeah, Amazon used Royal Mail to send me my copy of Dark Souls III...
...and I'm still fucking waiting on it! If Royal Mail wasn't privatised, I'd probably be playing Dark Souls III already, so for that reason alone, it was an awful decision.
Even then, I still have a better experience with my packages with Royal mail rather than almost any courier including Amazon Logistics. DPD and UPS are usually pretty damn good though.
True. I never have issue when those two are involved. Sometimes they like to send me things via Asendia, which means the item takes two weeks to arrive, never arrives, or in one case, arrives a month late with a "Missent to Canada" sticker on it. Royal Mail is, at least, better than that.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I don't think it is democratic at all. Regardless of your views on UKIP -for or against- they still had very little actual power in parliament. Cameron allowed himself to be strong-armed into a debate and referendum he didn't need to have. Labour wouldn't have a referendum and UKIP certainly could not have democratically secured the support it needed to push its beliefs through parliament.
Of course, if people were swayed back to the tory party based upon this referendum, that is perfectly democratic, but everything leading up to it was the parliamentary minority overriding the majority.
Facism
Member
The games collection sent my ds3 last Friday via royal mail. Arrived through my post box 10am the next day
QuicheFontaine
Member
Eh, you start to get problems when single issue parties get ~27% of the vote, like UKIP did at the 2014 European elections. Admittedly they didn't replicate that in the 2015 General Election, but they still got 13% of the vote and one MP. Even left wing commentators have noted that as pretty outrageous.
You're right that they "could not have democratically secured the support it needed to push its beliefs through parliament", but that's more down to the FPTP system than a lack of appetite for a referendum. Obviously Dave (and Labour too tbh) don't want questions to start getting asked about that. He's already staved off voting reform for a bit with the AV referendum, and this was another bone for the disenfranchised to quash any chatter about moving to a more proportional system.
Yeah, this will either make us leave Europe, or shut up that side for a little bit. For how long would depend on how much of a majority the stay side won buy.
Really hoping that there's not stats the leave side can hang their hat on. I can see something like England getting the majority of Out votes and Scotland keeping us in or something stupid like that. We'd never hear the end of it.
Just tell UKIP to rename themselves the English Superiority Party, god knows they act like it anyway.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
UKIP rapidly gaining support on the back of one issue alone suggests that issue is important amongst the electorate and needs addressing no?
Putting it to a vote effectively kills off ukip whichever way it goes. Come June Farage will feel his job is done, unless it's close and nefarious manipulation occurs.
Which it may.
I can't see us leaving the EU on the back of at 51/49 vote for instance.
Democracies great when everyone agrees with you.
Bananajama
Banned
3 million people voted for UKIP and only won one seat. Regardless of how much power they actually attained.
By having a referendum and killing the issue. That's a lot of voters the Conservatives can win back for 'free'
Latest new:
Mortgage rates to go up if we leave Europe. How do they work that one out?
If we leave economy is to tank apparently.
If that happens we'd really expect more QE and a further cut to interest rates to help stimulate.
Rates going up would suggest economy is performing well.
Loving the scare tactics
By having a referendum and killing the issue. That's a lot of voters the Conservatives can win back for 'free'
Latest new:
Mortgage rates to go up if we leave Europe. How do they work that one out?
If we leave economy is to tank apparently.
If that happens we'd really expect more QE and a further cut to interest rates to help stimulate.
Rates going up would suggest economy is performing well.
Loving the scare tactics
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Many of those voters came from Labour.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
It's bordering on the ridiculous, they need to be careful or they will push people to vote the opposite way.
The notion that the country cannot function unless in a union is a stretch considering lots of other countries do perfectly well without being in one.
I can't make my mind up but the pathetic scare mongering is putting me off. I see short term pain whichever way we vote. The EU is a basket case at the moment and I do wonder if we should start to focus further afield.
Bananajama
Banned
True. But...
Labour is doing a fine job of driving those UKIP supporters away by being a staunch supporter of the EU.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a fair few switch to Con. Due to the allowing of a referendum
What short term pain do you see from staying? Can't really see any myself. I could understand someone thinking something more long term as they don't think the EU is a good fit or something, but short term we'd just carry on like we are right this second, right? Just with the added bonus of the pound starting to recover.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm probably going to vote Brexit, and I honestly don't see any short term pain either to be honest. The status quo is the status quo - we are where we are - and really we're doing alright. I think the referendum is more about the long term.
For me, it's more about whether the EU represents the future or the past. If you look at the numbers, the EU represented a greater percentage of global GDP when we joined in the 70s than it does now, even with all the extra countries post-2000. Personally, I don't see that getting better, and think we should be chumming up with the emerging economies. In particular, our Commonwealth pals.
Just out of interest what would qualify as non scare tactics from the remain side?
We all know the benefits of staying and from the look of it are being taken for granted. Pointing out what could potentially happen if the UK leaves maybe considered scare tactics for the leave side but should be taken seriously as even if it's a worst case scenario things won't carry on as normal.
I personally think there should be two referendums on the issue. One in June and if the leave side wins another in two years time when all the new deals ready to be implemented and give the public a picture of what they have gained and what they are losing.
So far the leave have been playing the British Nationalism card and giving a cheery rose coloured spectacles view of leaving Europe and ignoring all the potential hazards.
The Remain side have guarantee to keep all its current benefits and the minor ones Cameron squeezed out. The Leave have nothing but uncertainty. If they came out saying "We will keep this, this and this" they might get more support.
We all know the benefits of staying and from the look of it are being taken for granted. Pointing out what could potentially happen if the UK leaves maybe considered scare tactics for the leave side but should be taken seriously as even if it's a worst case scenario things won't carry on as normal.
I personally think there should be two referendums on the issue. One in June and if the leave side wins another in two years time when all the new deals ready to be implemented and give the public a picture of what they have gained and what they are losing.
So far the leave have been playing the British Nationalism card and giving a cheery rose coloured spectacles view of leaving Europe and ignoring all the potential hazards.
The Remain side have guarantee to keep all its current benefits and the minor ones Cameron squeezed out. The Leave have nothing but uncertainty. If they came out saying "We will keep this, this and this" they might get more support.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I'm sorry, but we can get into debates about AV, full on proportional representation of first past the post, but all are democratic systems with flaws and advantages. Moreover, our system does not necessarily dissuade smaller parties from gaining power if there is enough of a push. Hell, the liberal democrats have long championed electoral reform, but they still attained power under our FPTP system. How many concessionary policies do you think the liberal democrats got before going into coalition despite having consistantly more seats than UKIP could ever dream of?
QuicheFontaine
Member
What are you arguing? The Lib Dems are an electoral joke: they traded away every principle they had to get in government with a party diametrically opposed to them, and you want to hold them up as an example of our system working?
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
There's a few EU member countries getting crushed by other members willing to sacrifice them for the greater good, ie themselves.
Somethings got to pop soon, surely. I don't know if the economics teaching I had at school is now considered incorrect, but sometimes countries need to artificially manipulate things like spending, currency, inflation and interest rates to get out of a hole and in the EU you can't do that unless everyone agrees which they won't. Strugglers just seem to get further into the mire.
We don't hear much about Spain over here but it's been festering in the economic doldrums for years with no apparent way out. They are going through problems worse than ever witnessed in this country and there's nothing they can do about it unless the EU as a whole agrees which there's no sign of assistance anytime soon.
The pound recovering is not particularly a good thing in a country with a large trade deficit.
You don't think a HUGE part of that is due to China's rise and not so much Europe's fall? If anything that is an argument in favour of more European integration, not some push to get chummy with the fuckers running China (Gideon is that you?
). The world is continuing to coalesce around a small number of continent-sized economies, and England alone will not come out well. I mean christ, do you think we'll come out better for having *more* lopsided trade agreements with China? Do you trust the Tories to get *that* right??Also... You can't really think the Commonwealth can ever be a serious grouping again? That ship sailed over half a century ago when the whole imperial senate thing failed, and more's better for it.
Jimbob Smalls
Banned
You don't think a HUGE part of that is due to China's rise and not so much Europe's fall? If anything that is an argument in favour of more European integration, not some push to get chummy with the fuckers running China (Gideon is that you?
Also... You can't really think the Commonwealth can ever be a serious grouping again? That ship sailed over half a century ago when the whole imperial senate thing failed, and more's better for it.
Why do we need to group with anyone? I'm not seeing the desperation some have to feel part of a "group."
Yes, let's have plenty of friends and allies in the world but there's no absolute need to be in someone's gang just for the sake of it.
The EU can't do anything about China, nor should it try to compete with its blatant market manipulation that we can't or seem to want to do anything about. Let China keep making the Nick nacks and the rest of us focus on the stuff we're good at.
Even the leave campaigns agree there will be short term pain. That's undeniable really - we know that if the vote is to leave, the markets will bolt and the economy will suffer. The question is about what happens a few years down the line. The leave campaigns think we'll recover and do better than before when freed from Europe in the long term. (cutting back on all those pesky health and safety and workers rights laws will make the country a better place!).
But there's no real question - in the short term the economy is going to suffer badly if we vote to leave.
dapperbandit
Banned
I take issue with this "we can't leave because the Tories are in power and they'll scrap x y and z".
We may never get another opportunity to disentangle ourselves from the EU, it's a choice that will affect all future governments not just the one we have now. If you're concerned about worker rights being infringed upon then vote Labour. Maybe a post-Brexit Labour party could pick up EU legislation and try to restore it, it may even be good for them to have that kind of focus.
We may never get another opportunity to disentangle ourselves from the EU, it's a choice that will affect all future governments not just the one we have now. If you're concerned about worker rights being infringed upon then vote Labour. Maybe a post-Brexit Labour party could pick up EU legislation and try to restore it, it may even be good for them to have that kind of focus.
UKIP won't go away though. I predict their next target being the foreigners that are already here, taking our jobs and ruining our economy, etc. Brexit will only make things worse short term and Farage and co. are hardly likely to put their hands up and admit it was their fault. They just move to the next straw man.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Sorry I meant I don't see any short term pain in staying. Sorry if I wasn't clear there. See the post I was responding to.
dapperbandit
Banned
That's ironic.
First past the post is a terrible system. It's not democratic. That isn't politics - it's maths. Millions of people disenfranchised every election. My vote has literally never counted in a general election.
With enough of a push, small parties can gain traction. Over decades. If they're lucky.
The system is designed to entrench two-party politics, which is obviously absolutely fine with the two parties who trade power.
In 2015, UKIP won 12.7% and 3,881,099 votes, getting one seat. The SNP won 4.7% of the vote and 1,454,436, getting fifty-six seats. That is absolutely disgusting.
Anybody coming in with, "Oh, but UKIP are bad!" can put it into Google Translate, put the settings to Bollocks ---> English and get "I don't care about democracy as long as the parties I don't like don't win."
Fortunately, David Cameron hatched a plan to kill electoral reform for a generation and Nick Clegg unbuckled his belt, pulled down his pants, grabbed on to each corner of his mahogany desk and helped it happen. The AV referendum was a farse and not something anybody with a genuine interest in electoral reform wanted - at all.
Our democracy is fundamentally broken and only a handful of people seem to realise.
Luckily for me, nobody has figured out how to make somebody in Scotland's vote count fifty times more than mine in a referendum.
There's something about blocking the view of a news camera during a political speech that is incredibly unsettling.
Video here:
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/721064960076304385
Internet Celebrity
Member
I think a referendum on this issue is pretty counterproductive since, to varying degrees obviously, people are generally completely lost as to what the consequences of leaving or staying are. On other issues, where because of differences in values most people will legitimately have different views on policies which they understand perfectly, yeah voting is great. But I don't think it serves the same kind of purpose for Brexit.
Classic Boris.
I'm amazed the man is allowed to hold high office when there's a recording of him have a journalist beaten up (source).
His whole character is an act, he's a thug. Bullingdon to the core.
I'm Danish not British, but I hope Britain votes to leave the European Union. It would be an unprecedented prestige loss for the EU and would probably fuel euroscepticism all across Europe.
Denmark joined the EU in 1973 together with Britain - mostly to maintain good relations with one of our biggest trading partners.
Back then the EU was all about facilitating free trade among member states and breaking down economic barriers. With the idea being we all benefit in Western Europe when we can sell our stuff to each other i.e. we sell Lego and bacon to the Brits while you lot sell us biscuits and cars.
I still think encouraging free trade inside Europe is worthwhile, however the EU has morphed into an all-encompassing entity that meddles in almost every realm of politics and there is a parliament in Bruxelles which makes decision over our heads.
At the end of the day I believe the EU will be undone be the "democratic deficit" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union at the core of the publics scepticism towards the EU. For example, in my country it is very easy to call my local MP if I want and make my voice heard (I believe the same is true in Britain), but is extremely difficult as a voter to influence what is going on in Bruxelles. Things over there are run by a powerful entrenched franco-german bureaucracy.
For me, at the end of the day that is the core of my problem with the European Union as it stands today: There is just no way you can really make your voice heard effectively. On the contrary, if you hate Cameron, Corbyn or whatever a voter can punish them at the next election and facilitate real change.
Therefore, vote leave and restore genuine democracy instead of the EU's elite driven pseudo-democracy
Denmark joined the EU in 1973 together with Britain - mostly to maintain good relations with one of our biggest trading partners.
Back then the EU was all about facilitating free trade among member states and breaking down economic barriers. With the idea being we all benefit in Western Europe when we can sell our stuff to each other i.e. we sell Lego and bacon to the Brits while you lot sell us biscuits and cars.
I still think encouraging free trade inside Europe is worthwhile, however the EU has morphed into an all-encompassing entity that meddles in almost every realm of politics and there is a parliament in Bruxelles which makes decision over our heads.
At the end of the day I believe the EU will be undone be the "democratic deficit" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union at the core of the publics scepticism towards the EU. For example, in my country it is very easy to call my local MP if I want and make my voice heard (I believe the same is true in Britain), but is extremely difficult as a voter to influence what is going on in Bruxelles. Things over there are run by a powerful entrenched franco-german bureaucracy.
For me, at the end of the day that is the core of my problem with the European Union as it stands today: There is just no way you can really make your voice heard effectively. On the contrary, if you hate Cameron, Corbyn or whatever a voter can punish them at the next election and facilitate real change.
Therefore, vote leave and restore genuine democracy instead of the EU's elite driven pseudo-democracy
British Trump. Basically not as bad, but still a huge twat.
To the "yes" people seeing "no short term damage." Why do you think anyone would even let the UK in the EEA, EFTA or negotiate any other free trade deal. Do you really think things would be amicable enough to negotiate any kind of deal?
Curious, in this case why is it any harder to call your MEP vs MP?
Curious, in this case why is it any harder to call your MEP vs MP?
For their own benefit. Take a look at the commercial balances between the uk and the european countries.
Great thread, cheears Quiche!
It's also worth keeping his Treasury Committee questioning doing the rounds too, considering they pluck him apart, bit by bit.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/treasury-committee/news-parliament-2015/eu-referendum-evidence-15-16/
It's also worth keeping his Treasury Committee questioning doing the rounds too, considering they pluck him apart, bit by bit.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/treasury-committee/news-parliament-2015/eu-referendum-evidence-15-16/
Jezbollah
Member
lol. Came in to post just that. God help us if he becomes PM. Fuck me.
I know right? Why would anyone want to cut a deal with the fifth largest economy. Makes no sense.
I think UK exports over 50% to the EU. I thought the opposite not to be as dependant, maybe Ireland would be hit hard.
Seriously, I am just to understand better what gives people this confidence that they're only getting wins out of it.
Clearly there will be a negotiation and some kind of deal made, it'd be daft to think otherwise. However the question is what does that deal contain? For example if the UK is to strike a similar deal like Norway, the UK would still be paying almost as much to the EU, be subjected to most of the EU trade regulations and have no say about the regulations in question. Same with the Swiss, EU trade regulations would still apply, Switzerland still contributes to the EU budget and they have no say in the EU policy.
The question I have is why is it that the fifth largest economy is seen to be utterly useless at influencing EU policies to its advance at the moment? The UK is the second most dominant power in the EU after all and has much more leverage than almost any other country.
CyclopsRock
Member
I don't think we are the 2nd most dominant power, though. Pretty much any country in the eurozone leaving the EU (and reverting to its prior currency) would be a bigger deal, I think, than Brexit which allows them greater negotiating power via brinkmanship. Or the potential for it, anyway.
If a country would leave the Eurozone it'd have serious effects for sure. It'd undermine the Eurozone as a whole. Still I'd be hesitant to say that Eurozone countries are as dominant as single countries as the UK. Outside of that, in policies that do not govern single currency, meaning the regulations, directives and other acts Britain is a top tier player.
I'm talking about a country that has the second biggest economy in the EU, third largest representation in the European Parliament (France has one more seat), by far the largest financial sector in the EU, a huge industrial sector etc. That's far more than most European countries have to offer.
I understand that many in the UK sees that leaving the EU would give Britain more negotiating power. But that's not what I was after, it was how the things are now as is.
thequickandthedead
Member
Saw an article on BBC News about Boris Johnson calling Obama a hypocrite for being in favor of the UK remaining in the EU. I thought Boris changed his mind in favor of remaining a while ago. Did he change his mind again?
More Fun To Compute
Member
The strongest argument against leaving is that it would likely end up leaving us with Boris as PM. It would be like the US accidentally getting Trump except we get someone even less qualified and more of a joke.
dapperbandit
Banned
Let's be real here, he'd be a popular candidate for PM any day of the week regardless of the EU question
Less qualified than Trump? I'm no fan of Boris but he's got a bit of experience at least.
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