CyclopsRock
Member
"Come on, Mark! Germans? Sausages? Do I have to spell it out? The sausage-munching Boche. Fritz, the bratwurst guzzler."Poltical correctness gone mad!
"Come on, Mark! Germans? Sausages? Do I have to spell it out? The sausage-munching Boche. Fritz, the bratwurst guzzler."Poltical correctness gone mad!
Even Amazon don't use RM much any more do they? It's mostly just eBay stuff.
I wouldn't have done it so soon, and the sale was a complete shambles, but I agree it was right to privatise it at some point.
Yeah, Amazon used Royal Mail to send me my copy of Dark Souls III...
...and I'm still fucking waiting on it! If Royal Mail wasn't privatised, I'd probably be playing Dark Souls III already, so for that reason alone, it was an awful decision.
Even then, I still have a better experience with my packages with Royal mail rather than almost any courier including Amazon Logistics. DPD and UPS are usually pretty damn good though.
Shows democracy works I suppose.
Sometimes.
The Chinese have been devaluing their currency for a long time as it brings competitive benefits when exporting.
Can be a pain in the ass when importing, granted.
It should normalise once the uncertainty is gone in June.
"Come on, Mark! Germans? Sausages? Do I have to spell it out? The sausage-munching Boche. Fritz, the bratwurst guzzler."
Yeah, Amazon used Royal Mail to send me my copy of Dark Souls III...
...and I'm still fucking waiting on it! If Royal Mail wasn't privatised, I'd probably be playing Dark Souls III already, so for that reason alone, it was an awful decision.
I don't think it is democratic at all. Regardless of your views on UKIP -for or against- they still had very little actual power in parliament. Cameron allowed himself to be strong-armed into a debate and referendum he didn't need to have. Labour wouldn't have a referendum and UKIP certainly could not have democratically secured the support it needed to push its beliefs through parliament.
Of course, if people were swayed back to the tory party based upon this referendum, that is perfectly democratic, but everything leading up to it was the parliamentary minority overriding the majority.
Eh, you start to get problems when single issue parties get ~27% of the vote, like UKIP did at the 2014 European elections. Admittedly they didn't replicate that in the 2015 General Election, but they still got 13% of the vote and one MP. Even left wing commentators have noted that as pretty outrageous.
You're right that they "could not have democratically secured the support it needed to push its beliefs through parliament", but that's more down to the FPTP system than a lack of appetite for a referendum. Obviously Dave (and Labour too tbh) don't want questions to start getting asked about that. He's already staved off voting reform for a bit with the AV referendum, and this was another bone for the disenfranchised to quash any chatter about moving to a more proportional system.
Yeah, this will either make us leave Europe, or shut up that side for a little bit. For how long would depend on how much of a majority the stay side won buy.
Really hoping that there's not stats the leave side can hang their hat on. I can see something like England getting the majority of Out votes and Scotland keeping us in or something stupid like that. We'd never hear the end of it.
I don't think it is democratic at all. Regardless of your views on UKIP -for or against- they still had very little actual power in parliament. Cameron allowed himself to be strong-armed into a debate and referendum he didn't need to have. Labour wouldn't have a referendum and UKIP certainly could not have democratically secured the support it needed to push its beliefs through parliament.
Of course, if people were swayed back to the tory party based upon this referendum, that is perfectly democratic, but everything leading up to it was the parliamentary minority overriding the majority.
3 million people voted for UKIP and only won one seat. Regardless of how much power they actually attained.
By having a referendum and killing the issue. That's a lot of voters the Conservatives can win back for 'free'
3 million people voted for UKIP and only won one seat. Regardless of how much power they actually attained.
By having a referendum and killing the issue. That's a lot of voters the Conservatives can win back for 'free'
Latest new:
Mortgage rates to go up if we leave Europe. How do they work that one out?
If we leave economy is to tank apparently.
If that happens we'd really expect more QE and a further cut to interest rates to help stimulate.
Rates going up would suggest economy is performing well.
Loving the scare tactics
Many of those voters came from Labour.
It's bordering on the ridiculous, they need to be careful or they will push people to vote the opposite way.
The notion that the country cannot function unless in a union is a stretch considering lots of other countries do perfectly well without being in one.
I can't make my mind up but the pathetic scare mongering is putting me off. I see short term pain whichever way we vote. The EU is a basket case at the moment and I do wonder if we should start to focus further afield.
What short term pain do you see from staying? Can't really see any myself. I could understand someone thinking something more long term as they don't think the EU is a good fit or something, but short term we'd just carry on like we are right this second, right? Just with the added bonus of the pound starting to recover.
I'm sorry, but we can get into debates about AV, full on proportional representation of first past the post, but all are democratic systems with flaws and advantages. Moreover, our system does not necessarily dissuade smaller parties from gaining power if there is enough of a push. Hell, the liberal democrats have long championed electoral reform, but they still attained power under our FPTP system. How many concessionary policies do you think the liberal democrats got before going into coalition despite having consistantly more seats than UKIP could ever dream of?
What short term pain do you see from staying? Can't really see any myself. I could understand someone thinking something more long term as they don't think the EU is a good fit or something, but short term we'd just carry on like we are right this second, right? Just with the added bonus of the pound starting to recover.
I'm probably going to vote Brexit, and I honestly don't see any short term pain either to be honest. The status quo is the status quo - we are where we are - and really we're doing alright. I think the referendum is more about the long term.
For me, it's more about whether the EU represents the future or the past. If you look at the numbers, the EU represented a greater percentage of global GDP when we joined in the 70s than it does now, even with all the extra countries post-2000. Personally, I don't see that getting better, and think we should be chumming up with the emerging economies. In particular, our Commonwealth pals.
You don't think a HUGE part of that is due to China's rise and not so much Europe's fall? If anything that is an argument in favour of more European integration, not some push to get chummy with the fuckers running China (Gideon is that you?). The world is continuing to coalesce around a small number of continent-sized economies, and England alone will not come out well. I mean christ, do you think we'll come out better for having *more* lopsided trade agreements with China? Do you trust the Tories to get *that* right??
Also... You can't really think the Commonwealth can ever be a serious grouping again? That ship sailed over half a century ago when the whole imperial senate thing failed, and more's better for it.
I'm probably going to vote Brexit, and I honestly don't see any short term pain either to be honest. The status quo is the status quo - we are where we are - and really we're doing alright. I think the referendum is more about the long term.
For me, it's more about whether the EU represents the future or the past. If you look at the numbers, the EU represented a greater percentage of global GDP when we joined in the 70s than it does now, even with all the extra countries post-2000. Personally, I don't see that getting better, and think we should be chumming up with the emerging economies. In particular, our Commonwealth pals.
UKIP rapidly gaining support on the back of one issue alone suggests that issue is important amongst the electorate and needs addressing no?
Putting it to a vote effectively kills off ukip whichever way it goes. Come June Farage will feel his job is done, unless it's close and nefarious manipulation occurs.
Which it may.
I can't see us leaving the EU on the back of at 51/49 vote for instance.
Democracies great when everyone agrees with you.
Even the leave campaigns agree there will be short term pain. That's undeniable really - we know that if the vote is to leave, the markets will bolt and the economy will suffer. The question is about what happens a few years down the line. The leave campaigns think we'll recover and do better than before when freed from Europe in the long term. (cutting back on all those pesky health and safety and workers rights laws will make the country a better place!).
But there's no real question - in the short term the economy is going to suffer badly if we vote to leave.
UKIP won't go away though. I predict their next target being the foreigners that are already here, taking our jobs and ruining our economy, etc. Brexit will only make things worse short term and Farage and co. are hardly likely to put their hands up and admit it was their fault. They just move to the next straw man.
I'm sorry, but we can get into debates about AV, full on proportional representation of first past the post, but all are democratic systems with flaws and advantages. Moreover, our system does not necessarily dissuade smaller parties from gaining power if there is enough of a push. Hell, the liberal democrats have long championed electoral reform, but they still attained power under our FPTP system. How many concessionary policies do you think the liberal democrats got before going into coalition despite having consistantly more seats than UKIP could ever dream of?
Too add a bit more content to try and remain on topic - did you guys see what Boris did mid-speech to a Channel 4 reporter yesterday? It was Trump-like....
There's something about blocking the view of a news camera during a political speech that is incredibly unsettling.
Video here:
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/721064960076304385
There's something about blocking the view of a news camera during a political speech that is incredibly unsettling.
Video here:
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/721064960076304385
For example, in my country it is very easy to call my local MP if I want and make my voice heard (I believe the same is true in Britain), but is extremely difficult as a voter to influence what is going on in Bruxelles.
Why do you think anyone would even let the UK in the EEA, EFTA or negotiate any other free trade deal?
Classic Boris.
I'm amazed the man is allowed to hold high office when there's a recording of him have a journalist beaten up (source).
His whole character is an act, he's a thug. Bullingdon to the core.
British Trump. Basically not as bad, but still a huge twat.
To the "yes" people seeing "no short term damage." Why do you think anyone would even let the UK in the EEA, EFTA or negotiate any other free trade deal. Do you really think things would be amicable enough to negotiate any kind of deal?
For their own benefit. Take a look at the commercial balances between the uk and the european countries.
I know right? Why would anyone want to cut a deal with the fifth largest economy. Makes no sense.
Clearly there will be a negotiation and some kind of deal made, it'd be daft to think otherwise. However the question is what does that deal contain? For example if the UK is to strike a similar deal like Norway, the UK would still be paying almost as much to the EU, be subjected to most of the EU trade regulations and have no say about the regulations in question. Same with the Swiss, EU trade regulations would still apply, Switzerland still contributes to the EU budget and they have no say in the EU policy.
The question I have is why is it that the fifth largest economy is seen to be utterly useless at influencing EU policies to its advance at the moment? The UK is the second most dominant power in the EU after all and has much more leverage than almost any other country.
I don't think we are the 2nd most dominant power, though. Pretty much any country in the eurozone leaving the EU (and reverting to its prior currency) would be a bigger deal, I think, than Brexit which allows them greater negotiating power via brinkmanship. Or the potential for it, anyway.
The strongest argument against leaving is that it would likely end up leaving us with Boris as PM. It would be like the US accidentally getting Trump except we get someone even less qualified and more of a joke.
The strongest argument against leaving is that it would likely end up leaving us with Boris as PM. It would be like the US accidentally getting Trump except we get someone even less qualified and more of a joke.