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[Kinyou]

He could have stood trial and try to invoke a societal change (this is what heroes like, say, Rosa Parks, do), instead he flew right into Putin's ass.

So he'd end up being the only guy in prison while everyone who broke the law walks free. We've seen that happen before with the CIA torture program and John Kiriakou

 

[Balphon]

All my favorite sources are unnamed sources.

 

[leadbelly]

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmCEVl3Ey8Y

Terrible quality though.

 

[DragonSworne]

So status quo?

Is there any proof that these spies do anything meaningful to protect their citizens in time of peace?

 

[Daemul]

All my favorite sources are unnamed sources.

All the unnamed sources were probably Theresa May, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she was the one who actually wrote this whole article.

 

[krazykei]

If I was a spy and there were 1.7 million pages of documents that could implicate me I would be nervous as shit.

 

[Enco]

He could have stood trial and try to invoke a societal change (this is what heroes like, say, Rosa Parks, do), instead he flew right into Putin's ass.

Yes. Snowden should go back to the US and stand trial.

I'm sure the amazing justice system will treat him 100% fairly and true justice will be served.

Please.

 

[Archer]

http://20committee.com/2015/06/12/snowden-is-a-fraud/

In the two years since the Edward Snowden saga went public, a handful of people who actually understand the Western signals intelligence system have tried to explain the many ways that the Snowden Operation has smeared NSA and its partners with salacious charges of criminality and abuse. I’ve been one of the public faces of what may be called the Snowden Truth movement, and finally there are signs that reality may be intruding on this debate.

No American ally was rocked harder by Snowden’s allegations than Germany, which has endured a bout of hysteria over charges that NSA was listening in on senior German officials, including Chancellor Angela Merkel. Although these stories included a good deal of bunkum from the start, they caused a firestorm in Germany, particularly the alleged spying on Merkel, which was termed Handygate by the media.

In response, Germany tasked Federal prosecutors with looking into the matter and, they if determined there was sufficient evidence, to press charges against NSA for breaking stringent German privacy laws. The investigation, led by Harald Range, Germany’s attorney general, has been slow and diligent, examining all possible evidence about NSA spying on Germany. Here Snowden’s purloined information would play a key role.

However, the matter has become politically fraught. In the first place, senior German security officials were circumspect about the case, since Berlin is heavily dependent on NSA for intelligence on vital matters like terrorism. Worse, follow-on Snowden revelations showed that the BND, German’s foreign intelligence service, and NSA are close partners, and the BND has itself been spying on EU neighbor states that are friendly to Germany such as Austria, Belgium, and the Netherlands.

To top it off, last month’s major hack of the Bundestag, Germany’s parliament, turns out to have been the work of Russians, apparently state-sponsored. In reality, the major spy threats to Germany are not NSA, but Russians and Chinese, as I’ve been saying for some time — and, to be fair, so have German security officials, though they got drowned out in the public hysteria over Snowden.

Now we learn that Range’s prosecutors are dropping their year-long Handygate inquiry, for want of hard evidence. Federal prosecutors in Karlsruhe aren’t saying much, beyond that they simply don’t have evidence of spying that would stand up in court. Back in December, Attorney General Range offered a warning about the dubious nature of much of the “evidence” against NSA:

The document presented in public as proof of an actual tapping of the mobile phone is not an authentic surveillance order by the NSA. It does not come from the NSA database. There is no proof at the moment which could lead to charges that Chancellor Merkel’s phone connection data was collected or her calls tapped.

Got that? That’s the polite, legalistic way of saying the Snowden claims are backed by faked NSA documents, as has been clear for some time to anybody who understands counterintelligence and the SIGINT system. This should surprise no one, since using fake or doctored Western intelligence documents to embarrass democracies is a venerable tradition for Russian intelligence — the proper espionage term is Active Measures — and since Snowden’s been in Moscow for the last two years and shows no signs of going anywhere else anytime soon, two and two can be added together here.

To make matters worse for Snowden’s fans, a report about the Handygate inquiry being dropped in the magazine Der Spiegel, which has been a key player in the Snowden Operation, includes the painful truth. While some have clamored to get Snowden out of Moscow to testify before prosecutors, Berlin understood how politically tricky that would be. Moreover, prosecutors determined that Ed simply didn’t have much to say.

As a prosecutor explained, Snowden provided “no evidence that he has his own knowledge” (keine Hinweise dafür, dass er über eigene Kenntnisse verfügt). In other words, Ed doesn’t actually know what he’s talking about. This is not news to anybody who understands how NSA and the Allied SIGINT system actually work.

Snowden was an IT guy, not a SIGINT analyst, and in his final position he was working as a contracted infrastructure analyst for NSA’s Information Assurance arm, i.e. the Agency’s defensive side, which protects classified U.S. communications networks. Snowden was never a SIGINTer, working on the intelligence collection side of the house, and he doesn’t seem to understand how that complex system, built over decades, actually functions.

This is why Snowden has made so many odd, contradictory, and even outlandish statements over the past couple years about SIGINT, which have caused those who actually understand how NSA works to scratch their heads … Ed doesn’t know any better.

It’s been obvious for some time to insiders that, for reasons we still don’t fully understand, Snowden decided to steal something like 1.7 million classified documents from NSA servers through internal hacks. About 900,000 of those documents came from the Pentagon and have nothing to do with intelligence matters.

There’s no way Snowden could have read more than a tiny fraction of what he stole, nobody has that much time, and it’s clear now that Ed, an IT guy and a thief, who was never any sort of “spy” as he portrays himself, would not have understood all those NSA documents he made off with anyway.

Snowden’s been living under the protection of Putin’s Federal Security Service now for two years, functioning as a pawn of Russian intelligence. When his secret relationship with the Kremlin started remains an open question, but that he has one now can only be denied by the foolish (witness the weak lies told by his supporters about Ed’s FSB ties), since when you defect, you wind up in the care of that country’s security service. That’s how it works in America, and I don’t hear anybody seriously suggesting that Putin’s Kremlin is more liberal in these matters than the FBI or CIA.

In light of these revelations from Germany, it’s worth pondering whether Ed was always just a pawn, a talking head, for others with agendas to harm Western security. As we’re now in the Cold War 2.0 with Russia that I warned you about after Putin’s theft of Crimea, this seems like a more than academic question.

For two years now, I’ve been trying to inform the public about what’s really going on behind the Snowden Operation, using my understanding of how the SpyWar actually functions, and I’ve gotten a lot of grief for it from Ed’s hardcore fans. News out of Germany can’t help but lead me to point out that, well … I told you so.

 

[SliceSabre]

So status quo?

Is there any proof that these spies do anything meaningful to protect their citizens in time of peace?

Doesn't that run completely opposite of what spies do?

Like if you went around telling the public what spies are doing, they aren't spies anymore they are soon to be dead bodies or prisoners.

 

[Enco]

...the Snowden Operation has smeared NSA and its partners with salacious charges of criminality and abuse.

The document presented in public as proof of an actual tapping of the mobile phone is not an authentic surveillance order by the NSA.

Got that? That’s the polite, legalistic way of saying the Snowden claims are backed by faked NSA documents

Lol

Is this guy saying that all the leaks have been bullshit?

That the poor NSA is being smeared? Fucking lol.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmCEVl3Ey8Y

Terrible quality though.

I find it funny how much greenwald acts like those he lambastes.

 

[Malfunky]

The corporate-state's PR firm and the nationalist dupes who buy into its every report. The buzzword of the century is "national security" and it's a nebulous and empty one. Whistleblowers like Snowden are a blessing.

 

[Archer]

Is this guy saying that all the leaks have been bullshit?

If not, a majority were fabricated.

 

[Minion101]

an intelligence organisation would never lie to us

They don't lie, they engage in "disinformation"!

 

[Enco]

If not, a majority were fabricated.

Ok so there is no mass surveillance and there never has been?

Good to know. All is well.

 

[Archer]

Ok so there is no mass surveillance and there never has been?

Good to know. All is well.

I'm not going to debate you. Cheers.

 

[reckless]

If not, a majority were fabricated.

Really? After everything that was disclosed about the NSA and its domestic spying alone by Snowden you actually believe that,

I guess you should tell the NSA and the Senate/House/Courts about how everything was fake because they've sure been acting like its real.

 

[shem935]

I'm not going to debate you. Cheers.

So why did you pop into the thread only to say you won't talk about it.? Obviously you wanted that info discussed or you wouldn't have bothered to post it.

 

[Dopus]

If not, a majority were fabricated.

I'm not going to debate you. Cheers.

Well I guess that settles it then.

 

[GaimeGuy]

He's a coward who broke the law without having the backbone to face the consequences. So he abandoned the country and the people he was supposedly trying to "help"

 

[neshcom]

He's a coward who broke the law without having the backbone to face the consequences. So he abandoned the country and the people he was supposedly trying to "help"

How would the people benefit by his facing trial?

 

[The Faceless Master]

looks like 'videogame journalists' are actually as credible as 'real news journalists' nowadays

 

[pgtl_10]

The fact he is in bed with the Russian government undermines him more than anything else.

He has criticized the Russian government for spying more than once.

 

[Syph Medwes]

The suspension of belief on both sides of this argument is embarrassing.
Personally, I think Snowden is a piece of shit and a traitor, but I understand why some would disagree.
But both sides would concede that some of the leaks were incredibly important and lended a sense of "justification" to his attacks, while both would also concede that he has caused tremendous harm. To act as if it's only one or the other is foolish.

 

[shem935]

The suspension of belief on both sides of this argument is embarrassing.
Personally, I think Snowden is a piece of shit and a traitor, but I understand why some would disagree.
But both sides would concede that some of the leaks were incredibly important and lended a sense of "justification" to his attacks, while both would also concede that he has caused tremendous harm. To act as if it's only one or the other is foolish.

What harm has he caused? I'm not trying to be facetious I just have never heard anything negative about him other than "he leaked other important things". What else did he leak that was so important as to negate or even counterbalance all of the negative NSA stuff that was revealed in the minds of some? All that I know he released was the NSA spying stuff.

 

[pgtl_10]

Wow at people hating on Snowden ...

Just wow.

If Russian or Chinese did this, the board would consider the person a hero. Honestly, I feel like in the Cold War at times when reading this board.

 

[pgtl_10]

The suspension of belief on both sides of this argument is embarrassing.
Personally, I think Snowden is a piece of shit and a traitor, but I understand why some would disagree.
But both sides would concede that some of the leaks were incredibly important and lended a sense of "justification" to his attacks, while both would also concede that he has caused tremendous harm. To act as if it's only one or the other is foolish.

That would have been the case no matter what. Putting nationalism before human rights is the beginning of fascism.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

He could have stood trial and try to invoke a societal change (this is what heroes like, say, Rosa Parks, do), instead he flew right into Putin's ass.

What an inane comparison. Sure, what Rosa Parks did was brave, but she wasn't going to be charged with treason now was she? As for societal change, what's your point? Isn't Snowden's leak changing society? Didn't he push the issue to the forefront of discourse?

What, he has to martyr himself to medal in your own personal Hero Olympics? Exile from the first world seems like a pretty big sacrifice especially when you consider his alternative was to keep living a life of upper middle class comfort.

 

[leadbelly]

The suspension of belief on both sides of this argument is embarrassing.
Personally, I think Snowden is a piece of shit and a traitor, but I understand why some would disagree.
But both sides would concede that some of the leaks were incredibly important and lended a sense of "justification" to his attacks, while both would also concede that he has caused tremendous harm. To act as if it's only one or the other is foolish.

It has been known for a while now that Snowden never took the documents with him to Moscow. I remember this being mentioned months back. Greenwald has recently reiterated this.

It could be that Snowden lied, but absolutely no evidence has been presented to show that.

 

[lednerg]

Snowden should've quit when he was ahead, when he exposed the unconstitutional domestic spying operation. That was great, and it's the thing he was going to be remembered for. His antics afterwards were more than a little upsetting, leading us the situation we apparently find ourselves in now. Even if those documents aren't actually cracked, it's still bad enough that the uncertainty is there.

 

[El Topo]

http://20committee.com/2015/06/12/snowden-is-a-fraud/

What a hateful article, without any insight, sources or explanation. Pretending that the German investigations (and the subsequent decision to no longer prosecute/investigate) is evidence that Snowden is a liar (who apparently works for Russia and/or only had fake information) is...ludicrous.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'd rather live in a world where the public found out about prism and NSA shenanigans and some agents were compromised, than not.

 

[Ominym]

He's a coward who broke the law without having the backbone to face the consequences. So he abandoned the country and the people he was supposedly trying to "help"

So you're a coward for running from the people you snitched on because they might try to kill you, or worse, imprison and torture you forever for snitching on their borderline illegal and nefarious activity? Pretty cowardly to willfully give up your family, life, sense of normalcy, country, and ability to not have to look over your shoulder till you die too, I suppose?

What am I even reading?

 

[squidyj]

If not, a majority were fabricated.

pro-NSA conspiracy theories, now I've seen it all.

 

[esms]

Wow at people hating on Snowden ...

Just wow.

Par for the course, really. There will always be people looking to diminish what he did.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

He's a coward who broke the law without having the backbone to face the consequences. So he abandoned the country and the people he was supposedly trying to "help"

A "coward" wouldn't have the courage to expose the most corrupt, evil, murderous nation on the face of earth for the hypocritical and fascist joke that it is.

 

[Oersted]

Par for the course, really. There will always be people looking to diminish what he did.

The machinery, fuming their flames, has been perfectionalized troughout the centuries. Can't really blame them. Its kind of amusing though.

 

[GloriousBagel]

A "coward" wouldn't have the courage to expose the most corrupt, evil, murderous nation on the face of earth for the hypocritical and fascist joke that it is.

You don't know what you're talking about

 

[leadbelly]

Another Snowden lie. http://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-told-snowden-to-stay-in-russia-2014-5

You know, I've been trying to make sense of this and what relevance it actually has. When Snowden was in Russia he filed for asylum in Latin America. I think Venezuela and Bolivia accepted his asylum request. Cuba is a key transit point on the way to Latin America and they supported his request for asylum. This was why Evo Morales plane was grounded, remember?

This was a month after he reached Moscow. What is being discussed in that article is the details of him leaving Hong Kong to Moscow. They are not necessarily related.

 

[Dictator93]

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmCEVl3Ey8Y

Terrible quality though.

Is sky news like some joke network? Holy shit.

 

[akira28]

I love how there is zero evidence of anything happening. It seems really easy for anyone how wants to undermine Snowden action to claim some kind of bullshit security threat to get everyone alarmed. It seems like the perfect target. He has zero way to defend himself.

you said it. If they waited till now to start pullback operations when they knew they were invariably compromised??? Like it was just a matter of time until someone broke whatever encryption? fuck.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I'm glad snowmen did what he did. I'm sick of governments thinking they can kill in my name and then turn around and say it was for my safety.
If peolple/governments are going to evolve and face the challenges of the 21st century we need to drop the way we conduct business with each other.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Snowden tried to go in Latin america then he went to China and then Russia right? Even then I don't get why some of you are so against his actions and him being in Russia.

 

[cutmeamango]

He's a coward who broke the law without having the backbone to face the consequences. So he abandoned the country and the people he was supposedly trying to "help"

He should have waited til a republican was elected, yeah.

 

[leadbelly]

Snowden tried to go in Latin america then he went to China and then Russia right? Even then I don't get why some of you are so against his actions and him being in Russia.

Wikileaks aided him out of Hong Kong. They were always a bit tight lipped as to how they got him out of there.

That Business Insider article seems to think some big hole was ripped in the narrative, but after reading it, I was confused as to what relevance the information really has to the narrative.

It first states this:

I was traveling with him on our way to Latin America when the United States revoked his passport, stranding him in Russia," said Sarah Harrison, the WikiLeaks adviser who met Snowden in Hong Kong and accompanied him to Moscow on June 23.

There had already been issues with this assertion, primarily that the U.S. revoked Snowden's passport on June 22, and the unsigned Ecuadorian travel document acquired for Snowden by WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange — ostensibly for safe passage to Latin America — was void when Snowden landed in Moscow. Consequently, he had no valid travel documents when he landed.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-told-snowden-to-stay-in-russia-2014-5#ixzz3d4k8GLMkp.

Okay there was some discrepancies in when his passport was revoked. I followed this quite closely from the beginning, and I know that when Sarah Harrison was asked about how she got Snowden out of Hong Kong she was pretty tight lipped about it.

Anyway, it then goes on to say that Wikileaks advised Snowden to stay in Russia. Personally that seems to me like good advice.

The problem I have with this article, and the assertion made by the poster in this thread I quoted, is that Snowden filed for asylum in Latin America a month after landing in Russia. This was why Evo Morales plane was grounded, because Bolivia granted him asylum. His intention was to go to Latin America. I think at that point everyone would have advised him to stay in Russia.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Truly dreadful reporting, and disappointed to see the BBC also ran the story.

The whole article does literally nothing other than quote anonymous British officials. It gives voice to banal but inflammatory accusations that are made about every whistleblower from Daniel Ellsberg to Chelsea Manning. It offers zero evidence or confirmation for any of its claims. The “journalists” who wrote it neither questioned any of the official assertions nor even quoted anyone who denies them. It’s pure stenography of the worst kind: some government officials whispered these inflammatory claims in our ears and told us to print them, but not reveal who they are, and we’re obeying. Breaking!

How does the blog post writer know this?

 

[DTKT]

What a hateful article, without any insight, sources or explanation. Pretending that the German investigations (and the subsequent decision to no longer prosecute/investigate) is evidence that Snowden is a liar (who apparently works for Russia and/or only had fake information) is...ludicrous.

Well, the man behind the blog is a former NSA analyst. It seems on par with the course that he would defend his agency. His entire position is that this is some kind of massive Russian-led spywar and we are all just eating it up.

http://20committee.com/2015/05/28/i-told-you-so/

AT WAR IN THE SUMMER. MASSIVE RUSSIAN CONSPIRACY. JULIAN ASSANGE TOO

 

[Skyzard]

Even if it's true, well worth it.

 

[Enron]

I remember when I said this in the many Snowden threads and ended up getting called all kinds of shit. Well well.

 

[Moosichu]

I remember when I said this in the many Snowden threads and ended up getting called all kinds of shit. Well well.

Well what? The story is dubious at best
best.

The thread has some interesting discussion on it.