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[disco]

As I remoaner I especially hate all of the 'WELL SURPRISE SURPRISE NO EU AGENCIES IN THE UK, HOW IS THIS NEWS!?' responses. It's as though brexiters are trying to shut down bad news by stating how it's non-news, it simply was obvious.

I just find the whole scenario just desperately sad. I shouldn't even comment, every bit of news I read today is just too depressing. I feel my own country is mad, the jokey semiotics of Rule Britannia that the rest of the world put up with as a bit of a 'har har, you have a Queen, fish and chips, tea, jam, bullshit - it's all just a jolly good laugh, we know you're not really that mad' have actually solidified into a real identity for 52% of the nation. I look at every old normal retired person I come across differently today. The only way to cope is be mute, to passively accept the circumstances and withdraw and save myself - or express my pointless opinion in a post like this - which will be deemed dramatic, erratic, emotional, Dionysian - or to hold myself up to the storm and try to correct it with such effort and distress you almost destroy yourself in the process... I guess that what it means to fight and to feel as though have lived right? So yes... I digress...

 

[boxoctosis]

What does that even have to do with EU FoM? Who is talking about global FoM? Are you literally making shit up now to explain how you claim to be from the far left but voted because of far right reasons?

Because people see EU FoM as a good thing, whereas I suspect it's because they've not thought too hard about it - the inconsistency between EU FoM = good, Global FoM = not good. As the EU continues to expand , it becomes more and more of an issue.

Also, i never claimed to be far left. Not at all. And also, not being happy with EU FoM doesn't have to be a far right position.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Because people see EU FoM as a good thing, whereas I suspect it's because they've not thought too hard about it - the inconsistency between EU FoM = good, Global FoM = not good. As the EU continues to expand , it becomes more and more of an issue.

Also, i never claimed to be far left. Not at all. And also, not being happy with EU FoM doesn't have to be a far right position.

There is no inconsistency here. You are the only one thinking that. Of course there is a difference between opening up borders with states that meet certain requirements and ones that don't.

 

[Xando]

Because people see EU FoM as a good thing, whereas I suspect it's because they've not thought too hard about it - the inconsistency between EU FoM = good, Global FoM = not good. As the EU continues to expand , it becomes more and more of an issue.

Also, i never claimed to be far left. Not at all. And also, not being happy with EU FoM doesn't have to be a far right position.

There is no inconsistency here. How one can compare freedom of movement between countries closely aligned culturally, historically and economicaly to global freedom of movement is just delusion.

If we go by your logic we should have border patrols between NI, Scotland, Wales and England or the 50 US states because apparently the majority of british people don't want FoM.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Because people see EU FoM as a good thing, whereas I suspect it's because they've not thought too hard about it - the inconsistency between EU FoM = good, Global FoM = not good. As the EU continues to expand , it becomes more and more of an issue.

Also, i never claimed to be far left. Not at all. And also, not being happy with EU FoM doesn't have to be a far right position.

You do know how long it takes to join the EU right? Prospective new members face a long wait to join, and 7 years after that before having free movement for themselves. Plenty of economic development can take place during this time. Eastern Europe is already doing much better as a result of EU membership. More people will choose to stay as new opportunities are created.

There's no inconsistency between supporting EU freedom of movement and being against global free movement. We inhabit the same continent and share the same values. We also trade freely with them with zero barriers. Why not offer all our citizens an opportunity to live elsewhere in this continent if they wish? Automation will also hit us in the next 20 years. This way people can still live an international lifestyle if they so choose in future. I guarantee you when this happens Brits will be the first to lobby the government to give us our free movement with the EU back when they find it much, much harder to go off to Australia or something.

 

[Jasup]

Binding decisions made by officials elected by other countries doesn't sound like sovereignity for me.

Well, by that definition there are no sovereign countries in the world nor can there be any. Even the definition of a sovereign state itself is subjected to international law made by officials elected by other countries.

But let's go further:
Want to be a part of the World Trade Organization? You must adopt binding legislation made by officials elected by other countries.
IMF? Binding legislation legislation made by officials elected by other countries.
NATO? Binding legislation...
World Bank? International Criminal Court? Geneva Convention? Paris Agreement? The list goes on and on. Even a bilateral trade agreement between two nations contains giving out some legislative power to the other party. And that's the point of international agreements, they have more than one actor and can not be decided on by one actor alone. Therefore all the agreements contain various policies or policy areas that are agreed upon between the partners superceding national polity. Sovereignity doesn't work like how you described it.

That's the thing with the EU. The member states are sovereign nations but they have also agreed that in order to have things like the common market some areas of legislation must be made on transnational level.

 

[Linkified]

Which is why it's limited to the EU. Economic blocs open themselves up to worker movement, it's a result of close economic integration. It isn't a bad thing. And it is controlled. You have 3 months to look for a job and you have to leave if you can't support yourself after that time. I don't want global FoM either, and no advocate of free movement except for anarcho-capitalists wants that. But I believe that free movement between countries in economic blocs is the way of the future. You've got Mercosur and the African Union wanting the same between their members, as an example of 2 trade bodies advocating this.

But has any country tried that, in the sense of - you have failed to find work now please leave. Is their any official pan-European database to be able to accomplish this?

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

But has any country tried that, in the sense of - you have failed to find work now please leave. Is their any official pan-European database to be able to accomplish this?

Plenty of European countries require you to register as an EU jobseeker for tax purposes. The UK doesn't do it for some inexplicable reason. Also no welfare eligibility at all for the unemployed EU citizen so the lack of money will force you to return anyway.

 

[ClosingADoor]

But has any country tried that, in the sense of - you have failed to find work now please leave. Is their any official pan-European database to be able to accomplish this?

If these people have enough money to live in another country without a job, they are no problem.

They can't apply for welfare or anything like that, so it is no problem.

If they are criminals or work illegally, they would do it anyway and there are agencies to catch them.

I don't see why anyone would care if a random person from Greece would stay in Sweden and pay for himself there.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Don't know why the government hasn't even thought of exempting students from immigration statistics. They can just keep free movement and the single market and accomplish a huge immigration cut anyway.

 

[Linkified]

Plenty of European countries require you to register as an EU jobseeker for tax purposes. The UK doesn't do it for some inexplicable reason. Also no welfare eligibility at all for the unemployed EU citizen so the lack of money will force you to return anyway.

Doesn't the whole registering for a NINO do just that? They can only apply for work if you have one if not you have to register.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Binding decisions made by officials elected by other countries doesn't sound like sovereignity for me.

Thanks for putting a border on my Island.

 

[Acorn]

Doesn't the whole registering for a NINO do just that? They can only apply for work if you have one if not you have to register.

We don't use the rules that can deport non working eu migrants without the means to support themselves is his point. People are hoodwinked into thinking states can't do it by the mail et al.

If I move to Sweden and don't work for 3 months with less than 6 or 7k in my bank account I'd get deported back here.

 

[Joni]

We don't use the rules that can deport non working eu migrants without the means to support themselves is his point. People are hoodwinked into thinking states can't do it by the mail et al.

If I move to Sweden and don't work for 3 months with less than 6 or 7k in my bank account I'd get deported back here.

Indeed. 90% of the things the UK complains about are stuff countries can do. Like those EU criminal immigrants, you can deport them as much as you want.

 

[daxy]

I can only speak for myself but it was clear there's going to be an economical impact.

Binding decisions made by officials elected by other countries doesn't sound like sovereignity for me.

And of course the anti-immigration course was part of the appeal, even if the tone was rough. I don't think I've ever made a secret about not being a fan of mass immigration. What's interesting is that you think being anti-immigration automatically means being racist at which point I can safely disregard your future posts on this matter.

Ever closer union, more and more decisions made by Brussels. How does that not sound like a federal super state? The comission is even trying to control the energy sector now when the treaties make clear that it's a national issue. But that doesn't stop those leeches from their power grab.

Sovereignty is a politically constructed fairy tale. No country has complete sovereignty over their actions in the contemporary geopolitical system. The United Kingdom gave up its ability to have a say in the world's largest trading bloc and will now instead be subjected to its rules. Does that really sound like sovereignty to you? Is Brexit sovereignty a form of sovereignty that has a functional purpose or is it merely an abstract concept that's supposedly positive? At this point in time, everything points toward the latter. To use it as a ploy to gain votes for a cause that is objectively bad for the broader population is as deceitful as blaming minority populations for whatever the issue of the week is.

Sovereignty to the UK is what the second amendment is to the United States. Everybody wants it, but nobody is willing to recognize how self-destructive it is, how it's being supported by a lobby that is purely out for its own gain, or how it offers absolutely no functional benefits because in the contemporary world it is as good as useless in fulfilling its own premise. It constantly amazes me how people just eat this bullshit up day after day.

 

[boxoctosis]

There is no inconsistency here. How one can compare freedom of movement between countries closely aligned culturally, historically and economicaly to global freedom of movement is just delusion.

I absolutely don't think the UK is aligned culturally and economically to a lot of the EU. But I'm sure others disagree with me.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Well that's because you're aligned culturally to an imaginary 1950's that never happened.

 

[Acorn]

Indeed. 90% of the things the UK complains about are stuff countries can do. Like those EU criminal immigrants, you can deport them as much as you want.

Yup. Which makes this whole fucking situation even more infuriating.

 

[boxoctosis]

Well that's because you're aligned culturally to an imaginary 1950's that never happened.

Quite possibly. England in particular is a grubby little nation these days, in my view (spoken as an Englishman who's been in Scotland for nearly 20 years).

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Indeed. 90% of the things the UK complains about are stuff countries can do. Like those EU criminal immigrants, you can deport them as much as you want.

You have to invest in those services though. Why do that when you can just blame it all on the EU?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Indeed. 90% of the things the UK complains about are stuff countries can do. Like those EU criminal immigrants, you can deport them as much as you want.

Even better, Britain is the only one with actual border checks still, so they can even stop them from returning after.

I absolutely don't think the UK is aligned culturally and economically to a lot of the EU. But I'm sure others disagree with me.

Every country had its differences of course. Nothing will be a perfect match. But Britain fits in just fine with the other EU countries. It is different from Germany as much as Spain is different from Germany, or Sweden from France, or Poland from Portugal. The UK is nothing special in all this, no matter how much they think it themselves.