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[CHEEZMO™]

I wonder why Ed Milliband isn't holding the government to account daily over what appears to be a grave injustice?

Maybe they don't get the figures or something

Spoiler

They're all right-wing neoliberals

 

[kitch9]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17139088

The benefits system is a complex bulging mess that even financial advisers struggle with, hence the recent simplification of the system.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I wonder why Ed Milliband isn't holding the government to account daily over what appears to be a grave injustice?

Maybe they don't get the figures or something

His party is equally culpable for decades of government number fiddling, in fairness.

EDIT: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17139088 is to do with pension top-ups, not employment benefit.

 

[kitch9]

Spoiler

They're all right-wing neoliberals

Nah, he's just too worried about banging on a tax cut that is still 5% higher than they charged for all the time they were in government and a 2p cut in Vat.

 

[PJV3]

Let's not use the Labour party of sell outs and 3rd way bullshit, as an excuse for anything. All their positions are based on a moral vacumn of triangulation.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Honestly it feels like this country is heading into a death spiral I'm not convinced will change without violent ugly revolt being at its core. Everything is just slipping down into an endless maw of unacceptable mistakes being made across every fucking aspect of government.

Fucking with the NHS to the point of insanity, trying to carve a bloody raw wound across the face of the benefit system without actually tackling the the true malignant issues at its core, pure insanity coming out of the education board and of course University now back to being a pipedream for the majority. All while more and more companies go bust with no new forms of employment and labour replacing them.

Sure we're not at the "no-ones got hot water" 80's point yet, but thats because all this stuff is happening just now. A year or two down the line and people are going to be losing their mind and feeling a sudden and frankly insane pinch that will bubble over and have the London youth riots look like a warm-up act to Britain's Got Talent.

All while clueless Ed gets into government strictly through "isnt a reptile android at least" voting and proceeds to Mr Bean his way into oblivion. Dark days.

 

[kharma45]

National Union of Students are morons.

Amen.

 

[cyberheater]

Honestly it feels like this country is heading into a death spiral I'm not convinced will change without violent ugly revolt being at its core. Everything is just slipping down into an endless maw of unacceptable mistakes being made across every fucking aspect of government.

Fucking with the NHS to the point of insanity, trying to carve a bloody raw wound across the face of the benefit system without actually tackling the the true malignant issues at its core, pure insanity coming out of the education board and of course University now back to being a pipedream for the majority. All while more and more companies go bust with no new forms of employment and labour replacing them.

Sure we're not at the "no-ones got hot water" 80's point yet, but thats because all this stuff is happening just now. A year or two down the line and people are going to be losing their mind and feeling a sudden and frankly insane pinch that will bubble over and have the London youth riots look like a warm-up act to Britain's Got Talent.

All while clueless Ed gets into government strictly through "isnt a reptile android at least" voting and proceeds to Mr Bean his way into oblivion. Dark days.

That's just horrible. I hope you are wrong but there's nothing you've said thats out of line. We could be in for a truly horrifying time. Could last decades. Fuck.

 

[PJV3]

That's just horrible. I hope you are wrong but there's nothing you've said thats out of line. We could be in for a truly horrifying time. Could last decades. Fuck.

The Capitalist system works, the people are the problem, work til you're 80, lose all your rights for £2000 (of shares lol)* and work harder...It will be great, honest.

*Still Going through parliament.

 

[RSLAEV]

This is not a good enough excuse.

I think it is good enough. And what makes you think the parents should have to take in their adult children when the economy is bad?

 

[sans_pants]

Hyperbolic media articles like that are exactly what I'm talking about.

quality rebuttal

 

[Pasco_]

Oh come on.

No one is saying there aren't people who are on benefits that want to get off them who can't, same as no one should be saying that there aren't people on benefits who have no intention of getting off them and are gaming the system to death.

I... there's like a sextuple negative in that sentence. I'll have a go though.

There are people who cheat the benefit system, yes. They are a vanishing minority, costing the tax payer a pittance (measured in the £millions), to the point that any effective enforcement would actually cost more money than would be saved. At the same time there is tax evasion and avoision being allowed, with orders of magnitude larger sums of money (in the £billions), but you rarely get a headline in The Sun about that.

The majority of benefit claimants should not be punished for the actions of a few. The welfare state is designed to be a safety net, and its a pretty shit safety net if we cut bloody great holes in it just so we can let some chancers fall to their deaths.

We won't go full Hitler though, we just like to moan a lot.

Nope, not full Hitler. Semi-Hitler is pretty popular at the minute, though I'm sure they'll quieten down eventually.

I know of whole communities that are basically on the dole and are more then happy to stay like that. Folks that have told me over and over again that it's simply not worth their time to work. That they'd have to earn 25k a year or more just to break even.

The problem here is not the benefits system, it's the subsidisation of a failed capitalism, and the collapse of wages.

The solution is to raise wages to a liveable level, not cut benefits past the point where it's impossible to survive.

Honestly it feels like this country is heading into a death spiral I'm not convinced will change without violent ugly revolt being at its core.

Welcome to the revolution comrade, would you like to buy a paper?

 

[CyclopsRock]

Fucking with the NHS to the point of insanity, trying to carve a bloody raw wound across the face of the benefit system without actually tackling the the true malignant issues at its core, pure insanity coming out of the education board and of course University now back to being a pipedream for the majority. All while more and more companies go bust with no new forms of employment and labour replacing them.

Christ on a bike. This was a paragraph particularly steeped in hyperbole in a whole post of madness.

"Fucking with the NHS to the point of insanity", sorry, what? "To the point of insanity"? Is it still free at the point of use? Has it had its budgets slashes? Are you forced to go to work sick because you can't afford to see the Doctor? The NHS needs to change, I don't think anyone doubts that. I don't see, however, how you can look at the changes being made and conclude that they are at "the point of insanity" and expect to get taken seriously.

"Without actually tackling the malignant issues at [the welfare system's] core" - which is what? Because, to my mind, the malign at its heart is that it traps people in a system of incentives which make it harder, not easier to return to work. I think the universal benefit system is the single largest attempt to actually fix that problem in absolutely decades of government's whose only tool to fix welfare was to throw more money (including under Thatcher, who increased it by more than the last Labour government in percentage terms, though obviously from a smaller starting point). What do you think the big problem with the system is, and what's your solution to the problem?

"pure insanity" in education - again, a silly stance to take on the usual tweaks that governments make to curriculums, without mentioning the fact that academies - which now make up well over half of secondary schools in the country - don't have to abide by the national curriculum anyway.

"University now back to being a pipedream for the majority" - A pipedream that requires no upfront funding, and has less significant repayment conditions than the system it replaced, sure. You only end up paying more than the old system if you earn over the average income, and even then, it's paid back at a slower rate so you keep more of your money every month than currently. The alternative is that people who never have, and never had the opportunity to go to university pay for it via taxes. I know which system I prefer, in a country where we already spend more money per year on debt interest than we do on all the state funded primary and secondary schools in the entire country.


Finally, re: employment replacing jobs lost - well, it is. It's going slowly, for sure, but then it's always going to in a global economy. Private sector jobs are going up, and in the last quarter, full time jobs were being created at a faster rate than part time ones. No matter what any government says, they can't create jobs in the private sector - all they can do is get out the way and let the private sector do it. And there's certainly a lot that they could be doing better in that respect, but they're getting better - reducing corporation tax is useful and removing national insurance for some small businesses employees will help a lot too. I also think they should be building more infrastructure projects, though that's really only a short term solution to creating jobs. In terms of "new industries" to replace those being shipped overseas, what would you have them do?

 

[Polari]

In a few months I will hopefully get myself an internship, which I know now is worth taking out a loan to cover the costs of. With that internship and what I have learned in work, I will be able to get on with my life and move out.

Ah, internships. Modern day slavery. Personally I think they should be banned and anyone "interning" should at the very least be paid minimum wage.

 

[cyberheater]

The problem here is not the benefits system, it's the subsidisation of a failed capitalism, and the collapse of wages.

The solution is to raise wages to a liveable level, not cut benefits past the point where it's impossible to survive.

Although I somewhat agree even if there was more parity relative to renumeration a guy without qualifications isn't going to earn anything like that amount in the UK.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Ah, internships. Modern day slavery. Personally I think they should be banned and anyone "interning" should at the very least be paid minimum wage.

I think it's tough, though. I've worked at a few places where we had interns - university students on sandwich courses where they literally had to do internships, and received their usual student loan (minus the fees, obviously) for their time, so it's not like they were entirely left to the elements, but we weren't paying them - but there's no way we could have afforded to pay them. The problem is, most interns are fucking useless. That's why they're interns rather than workers. For most, it's their first time in a professional environment - or, at least, a professional environment in that given industry - and have little idea what they're doing. And that's fine - they're there to learn, and we were happy to teach them what we could. In exchange, we got someone who did some dogsbody work for half the day (some relevant, some not), and sat next to us for the other half, asking us questions. It wouldn't really have caused us any problems if they hadn't been there - the time we'd save in not answering questions was enough to do the dogsbody work. But the interns would have been a lot worse off.

Of course, we didn't have them next to other, paid employees, doing the same job. Maybe that's the difference. But I think that our interns got a lot out of it - just money wasn't one of those things. I certainly wouldn't call what they did slavery, and I know that if what we did with them was illegal, there'd be several guys now working in the industry that wouldn't have gotten their leg up.

That said, I know another guy who shagged his intern. She certainly got more than just some After Effects skills, AHAHAHA. Get it? Because she got his penis inside her. Ahhhhh. Life skills, one and all.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

quality rebuttal

Brick wall dude. He won't accept anything that doesn't fit his very narrow narrative/world view.

 

[War Peaceman]

I think it's tough, though. I've worked at a few places where we had interns - university students on sandwich courses where they literally had to do internships, and received their usual student loan (minus the fees, obviously) for their time, so it's not like they were entirely left to the elements, but we weren't paying them - but there's no way we could have afforded to pay them. The problem is, most interns are fucking useless. That's why they're interns rather than workers. For most, it's their first time in a professional environment - or, at least, a professional environment in that given industry - and have little idea what they're doing. And that's fine - they're there to learn, and we were happy to teach them what we could. In exchange, we got someone who did some dogsbody work for half the day (some relevant, some not), and sat next to us for the other half, asking us questions. It wouldn't really have caused us any problems if they hadn't been there - the time we'd save in not answering questions was enough to do the dogsbody work. But the interns would have been a lot worse off.

Of course, we didn't have them next to other, paid employees, doing the same job. Maybe that's the difference. But I think that our interns got a lot out of it - just money wasn't one of those things. I certainly wouldn't call what they did slavery, and I know that if what we did with them was illegal, there'd be several guys now working in the industry that wouldn't have gotten their leg up.

I really dislike the growing popularity of internship, but for reasons you hint at, I'm loathe to tar it all with the same brush. Highly skilled workplaces such as engineering or tech or such sort are areas where I can see a lot of value for internships. For places like Tesco's it is absolutely ridiculous, along with the whole workfare scheme.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I really dislike the growing popularity of internship, but for reasons you hint at, I'm loathe to tar it all with the same brush. Highly skilled workplaces such as engineering or tech or such sort are areas where I can see a lot of value for internships. For places like Tesco's it is absolutely ridiculous, along with the whole workfare scheme.

That's why there's internships and "internships".

The former is where you go into a field of work where you need to learn complicated skills/procedures/whatever over a long period of time and you get paid an okay amount of money to get by whilst you do it. After you've finished you either get given a job or at least have valuable qualifications/skills that you can use to get one in the future.

The latter is stacking shelves or photocopying shit for less than half minimum wage.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Hey, stacking shelves is fine art, no random pleb can just do it. It also looks good on a CV.

 

[War Peaceman]

That's why there's internships and "internships".

The former is where you go into a field of work where you need to learn complicated skills/procedures/whatever over a long period of time and you get paid an okay amount of money to get by whilst you do it. After you've finished you either get given a job or at least have valuable qualifications/skills that you can use to get one in the future.

The latter is stacking shelves or photocopying shit for less than half minimum wage.

Exactly.

Hey, stacking shelves is fine art, no random pleb can just do it. It also looks good on a CV.

Agreed! That's why I'm currently doing it part time as I study.

 

[ghst]

That's why there's internships and "internships".

The former is where you go into a field of work where you need to learn complicated skills/procedures/whatever over a long period of time and you get paid an okay amount of money to get by whilst you do it. After you've finished you either get given a job or at least have valuable qualifications/skills that you can use to get one in the future.

The latter is stacking shelves or photocopying shit for less than half minimum wage.

that's the thing with most internship justifications. it's like "we are an environment full of skilled professionals, no one should expect a professional wage for taking notes and making cups of tea", well then pay them a taking notes and making cups of tea wage so it isn't limited to just johnny live at home and his weekly allowance.

it's always the same miserable cunt excuses about granting opportunities and paying them in experience. if you have someone in your workplace in any way aiding your business, however incompetent or menial, you pay them a wage you cheap exploitative fucks.

 

[Pasco_]

Christ on a bike. This was a paragraph particularly steeped in hyperbole in a whole post of madness.

"Fucking with the NHS to the point of insanity", sorry, what?

As of today, the NHS as it has been historically constituted no longer exists. We no longer have a publicly run national health service, instead we have 211 Clinical Commissioning Groups.

These groups are responsible for commissioning and rationing health services, no longer in the interest of the public good, but in the name of maximising profit. Tendering will come from private health groups as well as the NHS, and a private company has only one duty, and it is not to the patient but to its shareholders.

The NHS has not been 'fucked with to the point of insanity', it has been fucked with to the point of death.

Finally, re: employment replacing jobs lost - well, it is. It's going slowly, for sure, but then it's always going to in a global economy. Private sector jobs are going up, and in the last quarter, full time jobs were being created at a faster rate than part time ones. No matter what any government says, they can't create jobs in the private sector - all they can do is get out the way and let the private sector do it. And there's certainly a lot that they could be doing better in that respect, but they're getting better - reducing corporation tax is useful and removing national insurance for some small businesses employees will help a lot too. I also think they should be building more infrastructure projects, though that's really only a short term solution to creating jobs. In terms of "new industries" to replace those being shipped overseas, what would you have them do?

Yeah, look at all these jobs! (ignore that they are all reduced hours, low pay, part-time places)

Oh, and a lot of entrepreneurs suddenly appeared during this recession. I bet all those self employed people are doing fantastically well, and certainly wouldn't rather been in full-time salaried employment!

Reducing taxes on business is a great idea too, it's totally necessary to make us more globally competitive, and to encourage business to invest as they obviously have no money.

 

[Gregorn]

I'm a 22 year old graduate who has no job. Have also applied to 50 jobs. Not on JSA, but I have no fucking money.

How does JSA work? I'm coming to the point where I'm getting desperate.

You just have to write down jobs you've been applying for in a little booklet. If you're a graduate you're probably already overqualified for any courses they could put you on, so they'll be no help to you in that department.

If £56 a week is worth the self loathing, shame and hatred you get from the rest of society, then go for it. The lowest I've ever felt was standing in the rain waiting for the job centre to open, standing with the chavs, whores with babies and the rest of societies failures.

 

[Salvadora]

If £56 a week is worth the self loathing, shame and hatred you get from the rest of society, then go for it. The lowest I've ever felt was a standing in the rain waiting for the job centre to open, standing with the chavs, whores with babies and the rest of societies failures.

Going to the job centre in of itself is motivation to get a job.

Possibly the lowest I've ever felt.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Going to the job centre in of itself is motivation to get a job.

Possibly the lowest I've ever felt.

Yeah, but then you can go back to watch Jeremy Kyle in the middle of the afternoon on your 50-inch plasma telly with Sky+ and closed curtains and iPhones and free money.

So you have no right to complain.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

The US needs to do this desperately.

 

[ghst]

Going to the job centre in of itself is motivation to get a job.

nothing quite like getting leered down on by stock photography of every possible demographic while you act disappointed that the job picking pieces of brain up from the abattoir floor is just out of your travel remit.

i guess that's all changed now though. i bet the inspired rhetoric like "just the job!" that once coated the walls has been supplanted by live tweets from daily express readers: hashtag #dolescum.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

That's why there's internships and "internships".

The former is where you go into a field of work where you need to learn complicated skills/procedures/whatever over a long period of time and you get paid an okay amount of money to get by whilst you do it. After you've finished you either get given a job or at least have valuable qualifications/skills that you can use to get one in the future.

The latter is stacking shelves or photocopying shit for less than half minimum wage.

Weren't there internships at Poundland? The phrase alone is baffling.

 

[CyclopsRock]

As of today, the NHS as it has been historically constituted no longer exists. We no longer have a publicly run national health service, instead we have 211 Clinical Commissioning Groups.

These groups are responsible for commissioning and rationing health services, no longer in the interest of the public good, but in the name of maximising profit. Tendering will come from private health groups as well as the NHS, and a private company has only one duty, and it is not to the patient but to its shareholders.

The NHS has not been 'fucked with to the point of insanity', it has been fucked with to the point of death.

Is there a link I'm missing here? What have the private tenders got to do with CCG's acting in the interest of maximising profit?

Yeah, look at all these jobs! (ignore that they are all reduced hours, low pay, part-time places)

I'm not sure what part of " It's going slowly, for sure" and " there's certainly a lot that they could be doing better in that respect" you interpreted as my being bombastically enthusiastic about our situation.

And as I said, the last quarters figures show that a majority of the new jobs created are full time rather than part time. It's moving in the right direction is what I've been saying.

Oh, and a lot of entrepreneurs suddenly appeared during this recession. I bet all those self employed people are doing fantastically well, and certainly wouldn't rather been in full-time salaried employment!

I was one of them! I did quite well. Some of them may well prefer the idea of salaried positions. Personally, I'd love to be a male prostitute, but I've never had the sexual stamina for it, if I'm honest. Maybe if I work at it, though. The point being that "not being what they want" isn't the same thing as "failure". The people on the self-employed line of that graph clearly thought they were better off trying self-employment than continuing with what they were doing. Good luck to them. That it allows the government to massage the unemployment figures says little as to whether or not it's a good thing.

Reducing taxes on business is a great idea too, it's totally necessary to make us more globally competitive, and to encourage business to invest as they obviously have no money.

This is a bizarre argument. We aren't Japan. We aren't Germany. We aren't the USA (and their rate isn't 40% - I'm not sure where they got that figure) or Italy. There are plenty of countries with lower corporation tax rates than us who have far less businesses than we do, too. This doesn't change the fundamental point that decreasing corporation tax encourages companies to domicile here and encourages people to set up new businesses with greater frequency, and increasing it does the opposite. Obviously there is a trade off with less taxation. I'm not going to go on an argument about the laffer curve, but right now I think getting businesses growing and started is more useful than tax receipts, because without the former, the burden on the latter is simply going to continue to outpace it.

This isn't just about where Amazon choose to headquarter, either. We should want to make it easier and cheaper for people to create businesses - as opposed to working for other people, as most people do for some time before starting their own businesses. For everyone that does this (works for someone or a company, then starts their own business) there comes a point whereby they deem that setting up their own company is better for them than working for someone else. Lower taxation is one of the admittedly many things that contribute to this happening sooner, which is a good thing.

 

[Gregorn]

Yeah, but then you can go back to watch Jeremy Kyle in the middle of the afternoon on your 50-inch plasma telly with Sky+ and closed curtains and iPhones and free money.

So you have no right to complain.

Lol this is my life, except I'm reading Gatsby instead of Jeremy Kyle.

It's a horrible lifestyle and everyone knows it. You can't feel the benefits or relaxation unless you've been working beforehand.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Not really how houses work though is it. You can't add 4 "unused" rooms from different families together and create a new house.

Those spunky victorians had multiple families living under the same roof. bad old good old days.

 

[SteveWD40]

I was one of them! I did quite well. Some of them may well prefer the idea of salaried positions. Personally, I'd love to be a male prostitute, but I've never had the sexual stamina for it, if I'm honest. Maybe if I work at it, though. The point being that "not being what they want" isn't the same thing as "failure". The people on the self-employed line of that graph clearly thought they were better off trying self-employment than continuing with what they were doing. Good luck to them. That it allows the government to massage the unemployment figures says little as to whether or not it's a good thing.

As was (am) I, and I don't regret it at all. Being in employment is no more secure unless you have been there long enough to be owed a huge redundancy payout etc... At least I am master of my own destiny working for myself.

This thread has drawn out the fringe lunatic socialists that sulked out of the Poligaf thread as it wasn't a nihilistic, far left circle jerk anymore.

 

[Psychotext]

The people on the self-employed line of that graph clearly thought they were better off trying self-employment than continuing with what they were doing. Good luck to them. That it allows the government to massage the unemployment figures says little as to whether or not it's a good thing.

The people on that self-employment line are there because of back to work schemes where advisers are incentivised (financially) to get people to "sign off" as employed (or self employed) for at least six months. It's really no co-incidence that the line spikes so dramatically.

Some people on the government's welfare-to-work scheme are being inappropriately pushed towards self-employment, the BBC has learned.

It found they were being encouraged off unemployment benefit, so they can claim more money from working tax credits.

The work programme pays companies for helping people into sustained employment - including self-employment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21260331

On Sunday, 5 live Investigates revealed evidence suggesting that some clients on the Work Programme are encouraged to become self-employed when it may not be appropriate for them.

The programme heard from people who had been advised to sign off from receiving Employment Support Allowance (ESA) and claim working tax credits instead, even if they had no realistic prospect of making money and would be unlikely to be working the necessary number of hours.

One disabled woman the programme spoke to, who didn't want to be named, claims that her advisor attempted to push her in to working for herself, even though she wasn't interested and didn't feel able to run her own business.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ouch/2013/02/more_claims_that_the_work_prog.html

 

[SKINNER!]

So where do you draw the line? People could afford to move out of their parents houses a decade ago, we're creating a culture of dependency on the bank of mum and dad.

Please don't take lame as some like childish argument. People aged 20-30 should not be living at home with their parents for an extended period of time. Sure if you want to save up for the deposit on your first house then a year or two at home might do you some good. But culturally it's very fucked up. How are people supposed to have lives and relationships with their parents breathing down their necks? Not least as noted, there are swathes of people who cannot return home. There's something very wrong with a society when young adults can't afford to live on their own. For reference 1 in 3 working age men under 30 live with their parents in this country. Not sure how that stat compares to other countries.

I'm sorry...Culturally it's fucked up? what?! How is the bank of mum and dad any different to the bank of taxpayers? Unless the parents are physically abusive/crazy then there is absolutely nothing wrong with an adult aged between 20 and 30 to stay with the mum & dad while he/she comes up with a strategy/solution to get their life sorted out. If anything, the fact that they are "breathing down their neck" should give the person the motivation to find a way out of the house.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The people on that self-employment line are there because of back to work schemes where advisers are incentivised (financially) to get people to "sign off" as employed (or self employed) for at least six months. It's really no co-incidence that the line spikes so dramatically.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21260331



http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ouch/2013/02/more_claims_that_the_work_prog.html

No way! I'm positively shocked by this news!

 

[Zizbuka]

Disclaimer -- I'm old, I've been to the circus, I've seen the clowns.

I can't stop shaking my head reading some of these posts. I live in the US, so obviously I don't understand the system completely. That said, I see a lot of "I can't", or "I won't". If you're in your early 20s, you shouldn't put independence above all else. Move in with someone, learn a marketable skill, go to school, whatever. You're too young to have a defeatist attitude. Your goal should be simple; whatever it takes to make next year better than this year.

Now get off your asses, you whippersnappers, and get going.

 

[kitch9]

Honestly it feels like this country is heading into a death spiral I'm not convinced will change without violent ugly revolt being at its core. Everything is just slipping down into an endless maw of unacceptable mistakes being made across every fucking aspect of government.

Fucking with the NHS to the point of insanity, trying to carve a bloody raw wound across the face of the benefit system without actually tackling the the true malignant issues at its core, pure insanity coming out of the education board and of course University now back to being a pipedream for the majority. All while more and more companies go bust with no new forms of employment and labour replacing them.

Sure we're not at the "no-ones got hot water" 80's point yet, but thats because all this stuff is happening just now. A year or two down the line and people are going to be losing their mind and feeling a sudden and frankly insane pinch that will bubble over and have the London youth riots look like a warm-up act to Britain's Got Talent.

All while clueless Ed gets into government strictly through "isnt a reptile android at least" voting and proceeds to Mr Bean his way into oblivion. Dark days.

The hyperbole is strong with this one.

You feel this way because the media have made you feel this way.

The reality will be it'll be a bit rough for a bit then it will pick up.

 

[mrklaw]

Save up what you can and look for work and travel opportunities. Thats what I would do.

thats exactly what I did. I was unemployed for 2 years after university and living with my parents. Ended up moving to Brighton for work.

 

[CyclopsRock]

The people on that self-employment line are there because of back to work schemes where advisers are incentivised (financially) to get people to "sign off" as employed (or self employed) for at least six months. It's really no co-incidence that the line spikes so dramatically.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21260331



http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ouch/2013/02/more_claims_that_the_work_prog.html

A lot of them are, but they aren't all. I don't know what the requirements for receiving working tax credits are, mind.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

What makes it's workable and sustainable is that the banks are so very eager to help out all those budding entrepreneurs who are starting their own businesses with loans.

What? They aren't? The goddamn media got to the banks? OH NO!

 

[SteveWD40]

What makes it's workable and sustainable is that the banks are so very eager to help out all those budding entrepreneurs who are starting their own businesses with loans.

What? They aren't? The god-damn media got to the banks? OH NO!

There was only a very brief period where they were (without collateral), the height of the boom. Alan Sugar might be mocked but he did do it alone and he said, back when he started no one was lending a penny.

Oh and my entire industry is there to help new start ups, the leasing / asset finance industry, so there you go, send all your budding entrepreneurs my way. You don't need a bank when there is factoring / asset backed lending (even for software) for anything other than a clearing account.

Sadly most people don't know that and my industry is too stuffy to actually tell them.

 

[Pie and Beans]

The hyperbole is strong with this one.

You feel this way because the media have made you feel this way.

The reality will be it'll be a bit rough for a bit then it will pick up.

Whereas you get your news and information straight from the lizardman camp I assume?

The mass populace are stupidly slow on the uptake (hell even most in the media cant understand the NHS murder so choose not to report on it) and don't even really understand the severity of whats happening yet. Couple years down the line they'll start to realise, and perhaps just one perfect crystalline case of an overworked Mum and her kids out on the street, photographed and Facebook'd across a million blackberries will incite a tribal war instinct that makes the London riots look like playgroup.

 

[SteveWD40]

Whereas you get your news and information straight from the lizardman camp I assume?

The mass populace are stupidly slow on the uptake (hell even most in the media cant understand the NHS murder so choose not to report on it) and don't even really understand the severity of whats happening yet. Couple years down the line they'll start to realise, and perhaps just one perfect crystalline case of an overworked Mum and her kids out on the street, photographed and Facebook'd across a million blackberries will incite a tribal war instinct that makes the London riots look like playgroup.

I actually think you want this, either to say you were right or because your place in the world is shit and you want everyone to join you.

Oh and stop dragging up the looting (riots my arse), it was a race riot that became looting using new communication methods never seen before in this context, not a practice for the social uprising that you are praying for.

 

[Marco1]

Honestly it feels like this country is heading into a death spiral I'm not convinced will change without violent ugly revolt being at its core. Everything is just slipping down into an endless maw of unacceptable mistakes being made across every fucking aspect of government.

Fucking with the NHS to the point of insanity, trying to carve a bloody raw wound across the face of the benefit system without actually tackling the the true malignant issues at its core, pure insanity coming out of the education board and of course University now back to being a pipedream for the majority. All while more and more companies go bust with no new forms of employment and labour replacing them.

Sure we're not at the "no-ones got hot water" 80's point yet, but thats because all this stuff is happening just now. A year or two down the line and people are going to be losing their mind and feeling a sudden and frankly insane pinch that will bubble over and have the London youth riots look like a warm-up act to Britain's Got Talent.

All while clueless Ed gets into government strictly through "isnt a reptile android at least" voting and proceeds to Mr Bean his way into oblivion. Dark days.

Well said! Depressing and truthful.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

There was only a very brief period where they were (without collateral), the height of the boom. Alan Sugar might be mocked but he did do it alone and he said, back when he started no one was lending a penny.

Oh and my entire industry is there to help new start ups, the leasing / asset finance industry, so there you go, send all your budding entrepreneurs my way. You don't need a bank when there is factoring / asset backed lending (even for software) for anything other than a clearing account.

Sadly most people don't know that and my industry is too stuffy to actually tell them.

Lending in general is down, people aren't able to borrow much, if anything from banks without offering a lot of collateral with their homes often the first thing banks want. It's obviously the media's fault! Banks have fallen prey to their vicious lies and misrepresentation of the facts.

Great news about your industry. Although the lack of advertising your services is rather strange. I'd have thought now would be the time to challenge the standard model of lending...

 

[Pie and Beans]

Hey I'm not praying for it, I'd love someone to come into government, do a Ricky Gervais overacted double take and say "Well, alright, lets pretend that 5 years didn't happen and repeal all that nastyness and find a new way to go forward", but thats not how politics works is it? You let the other party take the hit for being villains, but then also reap any rewards or good standing it might leave you with and mumble into your fluffy coat if anyone asks why you're not actually repealing that stuff you said was reprehensible.

You've banged the "gotta be positive to see positive!" drum before, but the bedroom tax and initiatives like it are not a one time wrist slap thats gonna fade, its going to be a constant source of aggravation over the years and lead to people getting into a debt that isn't the nice "lol bought a flatscreen on some credit card this month" kind. Meanwhile all those interconnected social network devices wont suddenly disappear, and as I said, all it takes is one tragic Facebook group too far and things will probably bubble over. Hell, everyman doesn't fact check, could completely craft the thing from fiction but if it hits at the right time: boom, fireworks.

I'd have thought now would be the time to challenge the standard model of lending...

Amigo Loans for all!

 

[defel]

So a reduction in benefits is a tax now?

 

[SteveWD40]

Great news about your industry. Although the lack of advertising your services is rather strange. I'd have thought now would be the time to challenge the standard model of lending...

It's only 20 years old in the UK (from the US) and still pretty small, only 15-20 lenders in the market and what they will do varies.

I have funded new start soft play centres, restaurants, cafes, hairdressers, chippys (they always do well), renewable energy company's etc... the list is endless and none of them had to give collateral.

Banks still need to lend of course, but they are being given greater incentives to do so, just hope they take them. (they should, they like profit after all).

 

[SteveWD40]

stuff

You have one perspective, some of us have another and while I find the current govt a shower of reprehensible shit and don't see much better from the competition I have a wee but more faith in the innovation of the UK populace and industry. We have been through far worse and are still better off than most.