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[DJ Demon J]

I was watching Beer Bad the other night and Buffy takes out like 3 or 4 vamps within a few seconds of each other. Most of the time they stretch it out and have Buffy get her butt kicked a little, even on the "redshirt" vamps. Course, that scene I was a dream sequence.

Taking out vamps wasn't too hard for the scoobs overall. Each character has taken down at least a dozen on-screen in the entire series (if not more in the storyline). Hell, even fucking Jonathan slew a half-dozen in 2 minutes once.

 

[DJ Demon J]

The guy who played Ethan Rayne was Kain from LoK right?

Yes, he was. You can see him voice-acting on the special features in the PS2 version of Soul Reaver 2.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"If the intention from the beginning was just to have them beat the ubies and the FE to bail they shouldn't have built up fighting FE as this huge deal. I hate how they don't even explain why it goes away or what's stopping it from coming back. Why can't it just send some Bringers to attack the scoobie bus right after Chosen? As far as we know it's fine and well, just minus some cronies. There is no explination for how it made ubies so it could just create more."

Yes this was definetly a problem. That's a big reason that this season is so bashed. It built up one Big Bad and ended up having none. You just expected so much from the Big Bad when you first saw it in the first ep. They had it morphing into all the Big Bads. I remember every Buffy fan on this forum being extremely excited about what was going to happen, and as the weeks went on and the focus of Big Bad went off of the First you could see everyone getting more and more worried about what they were going to do with the character. Really disappointing.

I didn't mind her, she was just gawky and weird. At least she didn't do much.

If they had killed Kennedy at the end I would not only have forgiven them I might well acclaim s7 to be the finest TV of all time. God I hated her character... and you just KNEW she was going to make it after all that "OMG ME is anti-gay!" bullshit when Tara died.

Yep that's the reason she was in the series to begin with, atleast in that way. Joss never had any intention of making Willow "gay", she was going to be bisexual. But there was so much outrage over them killing Tara and how they only did it because they were scared of the reaction (despite the fact that they clearly weren't scared of the reaction). Makes you wonder where Willow's character would've went if that hadn't happened.

 

[Archaix]

Yes, he was. You can see him voice-acting on the special features in the PS2 version of Soul Reaver 2.

According to IMDB, Simon Templeman did Kain,

Robin Sachs was Ethan.

 

[calder]

Wes badder than Giles because he locked up Kate? Pffft. She was hardly innocent and deserved every bit of it. Giles had the balls to kill an innocent! Take that ya bitches!

HA. Ben was *not* innocent at the end. He had a chance to do the right thing but wussed out. Sure, he got a bum deal but he still had a chance to stand up and didn't, so Giles killing him isn't really more outrageous than Wes fucking up random humans (his cold blooded whacking of an unarmed Knox was just as hardcore).



Tabris: I don't have anything to add to your posts but they're cool as hell. Lot of great moments there.

 

[DJ Demon J]

According to IMDB, Simon Templeman did Kain,

Robin Sachs was Ethan.

Huh. I could've sworn I saw Robin Sachs doing the VO work.

 

[=W=]

i'll kill you, i'm serious.

"Don't question it."

 

[signet]

Witch is better Angel or Buffy?

I have been catching the reruns of Angel on TNT at 5:00pm weekdays (today was 43. 2-21 Through the Looking Glass). The reason I started to watch was because I caught the last 5 or so eps on the WB and thought the show was really neat. Luckily a few days after the last ep TNT started showing them all from the start.

I haven't been so fortunate catching Buffy, locally it runs at 7:00am (fuck if I am getting up that early) but I did catch one morning the musical episode and I thought it was hilarious. Think I am going to have to pick up the DVDs to see this one properly.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Overall I think Angel was the better show.

 

[=W=]

Witch is better Angel or Buffy?

Firefly

 

[SolidSnakex]

"Witch is better Angel or Buffy?"

Buffy, although I think some peoples vision of the series is tainted due to the final 2 seasons. But when Buffy was on it had a consistency that Angel can't stack up to.

 

[calder]

Angel s4 and 5 are as good as any Buffy seasons. Buffy s6 and 7 are probably weaker than any Angel seasons (ignoring both shows first seasons because they're unfair to compare). So I gotta go with Angel.

 

[signet]

Firefly

Firefly is one of the best TV shows I have ever seen. I think I am going to melt my DVDs if I keep watching them.

 

[fart]

buffy gets knocked down for the subpar final half. angel had a pretty subpar 2nd season, but was otherwise pretty good. firefly is cowboys in space.

angel wins.

 

[SFA_AOK]

Season 7 needed more time and possibly more episodes. The will-they-wont-they-end-it didn't help but there was too much in there for them to cover satisfactorily. I still liked it though. And I was hating on season 6 back when it was being shown I don't even like Once More With Feeling that much.

Someone mentioned Parker - Joss makes a quip about him in the director's commentary in the final episode of season 7, quite funny BTW, Die Squirrel Die, seventh season is at play.com for £30 (though I'm guessing you don't want to pay that just to see the last episode...)

 

[SolidSnakex]

Angel s4 and 5 are as good as any Buffy seasons. Buffy s6 and 7 are probably weaker than any Angel seasons (ignoring both shows first seasons because they're unfair to compare). So I gotta go with Angel.

Agreed with the S4 and 5 comment. I'd just put Buffy over because I prefer the lighter attitude the series had in comparison. But you really can't go wrong with either, they're definetly my 2 favorite TV series ever.

I really need a new ME series. I hate you WB, I really do.

 

[signet]

Angel's 2nd season was subpar? Wow I have been glued to the TV for the last few weeks and this is subpar? I going to guess that I won't be disappointed in any Angel or Buffy seasons.

 

[fart]

honestly i missed most of it, but i've heard it was the worst of the series. if it doesn't disappoint you though you'll fucking love the rest

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

BTW, Die Squirrel Die, seventh season is at play.com for £30 (though I'm guessing you don't want to pay that just to see the last episode...)

Well it would be nice to judge the whole season when I've been able to watch it properly rather than trying to fight off sleep and the BBC's erratic scheduling. Is that price sale or permanent. I need to keep my spending down to essentials for the rest of the month, but next month......

 

[SolidSnakex]

It's subpar when you compare it to the rest of Angel not just TV shows in general. Once DeKnight took over Angel the series just went from being really good to being incredible. The guys so good that I might watch Smallville next year just for the eps he writes/directs.

 

[SFA_AOK]

Witch is better Angel or Buffy?

Most people are probably gonna say Angel... Angel seasons 4 and 5 kick ass but the other seasons are sub par in places. I thought season 1 sucked a fair bit, there are some stand out episodes but for the most part it irritated me, I didn't like that there wasn't a real overall arc. I think it lacked the ensemble cast that Buffy had, focusing mainly on 3-4 characters didn't really work.

Seasons 2 and 3 were much better but had weird formats; both took a while to get going and have a fair sprinkling of crappy episodes.

Buffy season 2 and 5 were awesome (screw the season 5 haters ), 3 was also really good, season 1 has a lot of charm, the type of charm that only a new series can have. 4 has some good episodes even if the overall arc and some of the characters/plots are annoying. 6 sucked, seven was a good end for me. So I'm kind of wanting to say Buffy but I liked Angel when it was dark. It ended leaving you wanting more, Buffy ended and it seemed right. Angel season 5 was simply awesome, up with the best Buffy seasons, maybe above them. 4 was pretty good as well but the others weren't of the same quality. So the numbers kind of point toward Buffy but I'm leaning toward Angel. Angel has some advantages (I saw Angel more recently. Also, I think early Buffy is something that might get more difficult to watch as you age because of the high school motif) but overall I think they both ruled, 12 season of awesomeness. Must order the firefly box set!

 

[SFA_AOK]

Well it would be nice to judge the whole season when I've been able to watch it properly rather than trying to fight off sleep and the BBC's erratic scheduling. Is that price sale or permanent. I need to keep my spending down to essentials for the rest of the month, but next month......

It's been that price for a while now - I think all of the seasons are that price if you have any gaps in your collection (I'm still not buying S6 though :lol). So yeah, might be that price for a little bit longer

 

[SolidSnakex]

Buffy season 2 and 5 were awesome (screw the season 5 haters ), 3 was also really good, season 1 has a lot of charm, the type of charm that only a new series can have. 4 has some good episodes even if the overall arc and some of the characters/plots are annoying. 6 sucked, seven was a good end for me. So I'm kind of wanting to say Buffy but I liked Angel when it was dark. It ended leaving you wanting more, Buffy ended and it seemed right. Angel season 5 was simply awesome, up with the best Buffy seasons, maybe above them. 4 was pretty good as well but the others weren't of the same quality. So the numbers kind of point toward Buffy but I'm leaning toward Angel. Angel has some advantages (I saw Angel more recently. Also, I think early Buffy is something that might get more difficult to watch as you age because of the high school motif) but overall I think they both ruled, 12 season of awesomeness. Must order the firefly box set!

Buffy Season 2, 3, and 5 are just top notch TV. Season 4, 6 and 7 are great stand alone ep seasons. And Season 1 is just really good, it's not as good as 2, 3 and 5 but it's above 4, 6 and 7 just because of the charm as you mentioned. As much as I liked Angel Season 3-5, the first 2 seasons are why I think it's behind Buffy. Plus for me, there are just so many more memorable moments in Buffy than in Angel. I think it's mainly because Angel worked mainly on one style and that's really dark atmosphere while Buffy could go back and forth from being serious and just being fun. Angel mainly stuck to that 1 style. Buffy got really screwed up though when it went too serious, it lost what made the show so great.

 

[Tabris]

The Spike/Buffy story of Season 7 was top notch. So was the intial build up for The First.

That's all Season 7 had going for it sadly

Still, I though season 7 had some great moments, so all in all, definitely beats out S6, S4 and S1.

 

[Tabris]

To answer your question on which was better.

I would have to say Angel. It was a lot more consistant, and had a better finale.

I only had two problems with how Angel ended.

A) They should have had some scene between Angel and Conner where they had some kind of sappy, but snarky speech about what Conner meant to Angel. It just would have completed it. Even though, I guess I'm fine with it being unsaid.

B) Spike's character was never completed. Wes was complete, he was complete in episode 15, was just in limbo the rest of the season. (I loved that). Gunn was complete with his last scene. Angel was complete at the end of season 4. He shanshu'd through Conner, and gave him the family he deserved. Spike was never complete.

 

[Bauer Action Hour]

Buffy's better than Angel. It's got more great seasons (5 and 3 VS 4) and more very good ones (6, 4, 2, 1 VS 3, 2). I love the Angel series, but after re-watching S4-6 of Buffy, I once again realized that I like Buffy more. My favorite season of either series might be Angel S4, though it's very close between it and Buffy S5+3.

Also, I don't get the hate over seasons 4-6 for Buffy. Seasons 4 and 6 were a bit different than what people were used to, but I thought they very good and important for the development of various characters and storylines. Season 5 is simply great and doesn't get enough love IMO.

Season 7, however, was trash. Maybe after I re-watch it I'll lighten up, but I'm not sure it's possible. Many episodes dragged on an on w/ nothing happening and the constant pontificating from Buffy was irritating. As a general point, the writing simply wasn't good. A lot of the episodes just seemed sloppy in their construction.

Season 7 also gets the award for "Most Wasted Potential." The first evil was a joke when it should've been the best enemy in the series. I thought the Spike re-ensoulment should've had more impact on more episodes, w/ more interaction between him and Buffy. I also thought the lack of focus on the core "Scoobies" was terrible, as the events of Season 6 should've pushed them to focus on each other more than ever instead of rarely at all. Like I said, I have a lot problems w/ this season.

 

[Brandon F]

Buffy virgin here, but I did catch an episode awhile back which was pretty hilarious. Buffy approaches Spike with the intent to learn of how he 'killed' two previous Slayers in his past. They spend most of the episode at the bar chatting it up(Buffy interrupts his demon card game where they bet cats IIRC?)

The episode then flashbacks to New Orleans mid-18th century or so(eh...) and then to the late 70's where Spike, dressed very much like Billy Idol, takes down some afro-wearing coochie slayer on a subway. Pretty cool episode, made me want to borrow some of the DVD sets from a friend.

What season was that from anyway?

 

[Tabris]

Buffy virgin here, but I did catch an episode awhile back which was pretty hilarious. Buffy approaches Spike with the intent to learn of how he 'killed' two previous Slayers in his past. They spend most of the episode at the bar chatting it up(Buffy interrupts his demon card game where they bet cats IIRC?)

The episode then flashbacks to New Orleans mid-18th century or so(eh...) and then to the late 70's where Spike, dressed very much like Billy Idol, takes down some afro-wearing coochie slayer on a subway. Pretty cool episode, made me want to borrow some of the DVD sets from a friend.

What season was that from anyway?

You mean China? or Britian? Haha, New Orleans? Way off.

By the way, you're talking about two different episodes.

One is called "Fool for Love" (fantastic episode), the other is called "Life Serial" I believe, which is a horrid episode.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"What season was that from anyway?"

That's from Season 5. The ep is called "Fool for Love". Great ep and it has Dru in it which is always a plus.

 

[Tabris]

"What season was that from anyway?"

That's from Season 5. The ep is called "Fool for Love". Great ep and it has Dru in it which is always a plus.

but the whole cat thing he's talking about is from an early episode in season 6.

 

[Brandon F]

Well it was like a year ago when I saw it...It may have been a back-2-back thing going on and I got confused which episode was which. I was only half-watching the thing at the time, but I perked up when the 'funk' music popped in and Spike threw down in the subway.

Oh and I could be wrong, but didn't Spike like profess his love to Buffy on his knees at the very end? (getting majorly shut down) It's been awhile, but I recall something like that happening.

A buddy of mine has every released DVD set, bout time I sat and watched them. He has been trying to 'convert' me for many years.

 

[LakeEarth]

Buffy virgin here, but I did catch an episode awhile back which was pretty hilarious. Buffy approaches Spike with the intent to learn of how he 'killed' two previous Slayers in his past. They spend most of the episode at the bar chatting it up(Buffy interrupts his demon card game where they bet cats IIRC?)

The episode then flashbacks to New Orleans mid-18th century or so(eh...) and then to the late 70's where Spike, dressed very much like Billy Idol, takes down some afro-wearing coochie slayer on a subway. Pretty cool episode, made me want to borrow some of the DVD sets from a friend.

What season was that from anyway?

The cat poker thing was in another episode. But Fool for Love was an awsome ep.

How DO they make an onion into a flower looking thing like that, anyways?

 

[SolidSnakex]

but the whole cat thing he's talking about is from an early episode in season 6.

Yah but he seemed to be mainly describing Fool for Love. The cat thing he mentioned though was a funny scene, albeit really odd.

"A buddy of mine has every released DVD set, bout time I sat and watched them. He has been trying to 'convert' me for many years."

You will be, just watch them in order. And be warned from the start, Season 4 is basically an episodic Season (no heavy story arcs like all the other seasons) same for Season 6 and 7. That might help you enjoy them more when you see them. Because if you go in expecting story arcs like most of us with those seasons you'll come out the sameway most ofus did, really disappointed.

 

[Tabris]

How DO they make an onion into a flower looking thing like that, anyways?

He explains near the end of season 7. When on the bike with andrew.

 

[Brandon F]

My Buffy fan friend has mentioned Season 3 and his recently purchased Season 6 set as being his favorites of the bunch. He's also pretty much said I can skip Season 1 if I ever did get want to start watching, it doesn't kick into high gear until the second set apparently? I've always ignored his advances, but I'll cave soon.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Season 6 > all the other seasons? Crazy talk I say! Season 1 is basically just a set up to the show. I'd suggest watching it just because there is alot of charm with it since the writers are just getting adjusted to things. Plus you'll appreciate just how much of an improvement they make with Season 2 even more. Season 2 is absolutely brilliant.

 

[Brandon F]

Well he digs them ALL really, but every time the topic comes up, he seems to favor those for whatever reasons with Season 1 being in there for completion purposes, but rarely touched.

 

[Bauer Action Hour]

Season 4 is basically an episodic Season (no heavy story arcs like all the other seasons) same for Season 6 and 7. That might help you enjoy them more when you see them. Because if you go in expecting story arcs like most of us with those seasons you'll come out the sameway most ofus did, really disappointed.

The Season 4 arc is obvious, Adam and the Initiative. Buffy and crew dealing w/ the grown up world was also an arc, just not the type people were used to.

Season 6 was more disjointed in that sense, w/ the trio tossed in to give some feeling of an enemy arc, but it's obvious that S6 was about dealing w/ the "big bad" from within for each of the characters.

I noticed these things about S 4 and 6, which is why I never disliked them in the least. They were different from a directional standpoint than other seasons, which is how I can see some people not liking them, but the dislike for these seasons from a sizable portion of Buffy fans is perplexing to me. They were still Buffy and still told excellent stories.

 

[Shouta]

As for the Angel vs Buffy question. I would go with Angel myself ;p.

Strong series overall and a heavier consistency inbetween seasons. There wasn`t the massive fluctuating in Angel that you happen to see in Buffy from time to time. Most of the changes in Angel are progressive and can clearly have a cause from previous episodes. Also, the sense of connection found throughout the series (events seen previously have an effect later) was quite amazing. Angel also kept the humor found in Buffy but subtly changed it as the series went on leading to a bit different atmosphere as a whole. Buffy isn`t bad at all but it just didn`t pan out as well as the series progressed and didn`t change enough that it started getting stale for me partway through season 4.

 

[fart]

Well he digs them ALL really, but every time the topic comes up, he seems to favor those for whatever reasons with Season 1 being in there for completion purposes, but rarely touched.

1) you have to drop whatever it is you're doing right now and start watching

2) start watching at season 1 ep 1 (you can probably skip the unaired pilot, but the rest is required viewing). season 1 is the essence of the show. you have to watch it.

by season 5 you'll probably start nodding off. that's ok. just bear with it to 6 and 7, you'll have to trust me that there's some really good shit in there.

happy buffing!

 

[etiolate]

Umm.. Buffy's friends have always carried the show. SMG has always just been mostly nice to look at. Xander, Giles, Willow, Wes and Oz have always been the best and most interesting characters. When they ruined most of those characters and started focusing on Buffy the Vampire humper is when it went to the shitter.

And Angel took two of my least liked characters from Buffy and made them watchable and at times even likeable. So Angel wins. Buffy loses because its characters were more mature while in highschool than out of it. HUMP HUMP LEZBO LEZBO. Please no. Angel never resorted to cheap ratings ploys.

 

[Bauer Action Hour]

Anyone else miss Buffy being gone? It hit me a couple of weeks ago that Buffy had been off the air for just over a year. Even though Season 7 wasn't all that, no Buffy on the tube sucks. It feels like a void in my viewing schedule. Angel biting the dust didn't help either.

I didn't like Firefly, but I'd love a new Whedon show right about now. A new spinoff from Buffy/Angel would work well.

 

[jarrod]

What Willow, Dawn, and Anya see in Xander was beyond my understanding.

Xander was hhhot in his dorky, skinny highschool days. The bulky Xander we got later however gives me the shivers...

 

[DJ Demon J]

The Season 4 arc is obvious, Adam and the Initiative. Buffy and crew dealing w/ the grown up world was also an arc, just not the type people were used to.

Season 6 was more disjointed in that sense, w/ the trio tossed in to give some feeling of an enemy arc, but it's obvious that S6 was about dealing w/ the "big bad" from within for each of the characters.

I noticed these things about S 4 and 6, which is why I never disliked them in the least. They were different from a directional standpoint than other seasons, which is how I can see some people not liking them, but the dislike for these seasons from a sizable portion of Buffy fans is perplexing to me. They were still Buffy and still told excellent stories.

IAWTP. Buffy keeps getting better as I watch it through the seasons (currently nearing the end of Season 6).

 

[SolidSnakex]

The Season 4 arc is obvious, Adam and the Initiative. Buffy and crew dealing w/ the grown up world was also an arc, just not the type people were used to.

I think the main problem with S4 is the Big Bad was incredibly weak. We went from Faith/Mayor to Adam that's just a huge drop in quality. He wasn't scary and he just looked like an idiot. Other bad things include the entire Initiative in general and especially Riley.

"Strong series overall and a heavier consistency inbetween seasons. There wasn`t the massive fluctuating in Angel that you happen to see in Buffy from time to time."

I thought the seasons where Buffy was on (2, 3 and 5) were incredibly consistant. It was definetly disjointed in Season 6 and 7 though although i've convinced myself that it was done intentionally. Season 2 and 3 especially were very consistant through the entire thing.

"Anyone else miss Buffy being gone? It hit me a couple of weeks ago that Buffy had been off the air for just over a year."

I started missing it half way through Angel's 5th season. As hard as I am on Season 6 and 7 i'd still watch them over any other show on TV (with the exception of Angel). There's an even bigger void now without any ME shows on TV. There just doesn't seem to be anything that's really a must watch imo. This upcoming season seems pretty bland although that could change (I doubt it though). I also don't want to get interested in any new shows after having Firefly and Wonderfalls cancelled back to back.

 

[DJ Demon J]

I think the main problem with S4 is the Big Bad was incredibly weak. We went from Faith/Mayor to Adam that's just a huge drop in quality. He wasn't scary and he just looked like an idiot. Other bad things include the entire Initiative in general and especially Riley.

I think a majority of Buffy fans missed the point about Riley. Remember the guy that boinked Buffy for a one-night stand? There was a whole big build-up making him look like the next boyfriend for Buffy, but then they pulled one over on you, and Buffy was taught a valuable lesson. Then she meets Riley, and learns about secret identities and how she will always have a different life. Riley was the textbook perfect guy (nice, caring and shared interest--demon slaying). But the whole point was that Buffy is The Slayer, and as such she is drawn to darkness (Angel, Spike). Plus, Riley was the only guy the Scoobies really liked (Xander deeply resents Angel, good or not, for breaking Buffy's heart--and, IMHO, for being so close to Buffy, something Xander truly wishes he could have--see the final episode of Season 4 when in Xander's dream, Buffy refers to him as "Big Brother"; he realizes that she will always just see him as a friend but never as a lover); everyone hated Spike. Riley gets a bad rap, he was an interesting character (I enjoyed the exploration into his dark side in Season 5 and his comeback in Season 6), and he was far more interesting than Dawn (whine whine whine whine whine) and Glory (big bad with no real personality).

Adam also gets a bad rap. He had far more insight to the silliness of the Scoobies and Buffy and Riley and Spike than most Big Bads. He represented extreme strength and intelligence, moreso than any Big Bad before him (with the exception of the Master, who was foiled by his own lackeys more than anything else). Adam's threat was so great that Buffy wouldn't have defeated him if not for Jonathan's interference, and the Scoobie's dangerous spell attempt. It set a darker tone for the series (Season 4's finale had TONS of foreshadowing), and flowed well with Angel's overarching philosophy revealed by The Powers That Be (there are chosen warriors who will be protected, everyone else is risking their lives).

I loved the Mayor and his interaction with Faith was really engaging. He really enjoyed being evil but had a human side, which made him the best Big Bad--someone once said that the best villians are those who believe they're doing something for a reason and that they are right. Seeing the human flaw in a villian makes them more believable (and scarier). Glory had none of that, and ranks as one of the worst Big Bads IMHO.

Anyways, getting back to the point, Riley's comeback in Season 6 was meant to show that it's possible to find love and live a normal life among the craziness of a life fighting evil. Although Buffy is The Slayer, she had the chance for perfection with Riley. But she chooses Angel (and later Spike) because she is drawn to the drama. I'm not sure if she ever comes to this realization, because for all of her protesting her life as The Slayer, she seeks out trouble in life more often than peace.

 

[DarkAngyl]

Excellent post DJ! You just summed up my feelings on Riley and Season 4 perfectly. Riley grew on me as a character, especially watching the DVD set. I can't help but think that for a lot of people, the biggest problem with Riley is that he isn't Angel. Yes he made some horrible choices at the end, but he loved Buffy and was good for her.

As to which show is better...it all depends on which one I'm watching at the time. I love all three. Buffy/Angel/Firefly >rest of TV. I'm so giddy about the Big Damned Movie (BDM) that I can't stand it. I've alsi heard more rumors about Buffyverse movies coming this year. The newest seems to point towards a Spike movie and then three more, with each featuring a character from the Buffyverse. One being Wes (Rock!) Just not sure how they'd do the Wes movie other than flashbacks. I wish we would get some concrete news. I'm so in mourning over the lack of ME on TV.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"Remember the guy that boinked Buffy for a one-night stand?"

Yes that was Parker aka. the other worst Buffyverse character ever.

"There was a whole big build-up making him look like the next boyfriend for Buffy, but then they pulled one over on you, and Buffy was taught a valuable lesson. Then she meets Riley, and learns about secret identities and how she will always have a different life. Riley was the textbook perfect guy (nice, caring and shared interest--demon slaying). But the whole point was that Buffy is The Slayer, and as such she is drawn to darkness (Angel, Spike)."

Yes he was "technically" a nice guy. His main problem is that he couldn't stand not being the center of her attention. If you notice all through Season 4 she was all over him once they started dating. But then during Season 5 her attention was then put on more important matters, her own family. So instead of simply understand this, he gets pissed and thinks she's trying to ignore him which wasn't the case. So what does he do? He goes and cheats on her with a vampire to see why she "let" Dracula bite her and why Dracula and Angel had so much power over her. The guy in the grand scheme of things was completely clueless and 100% self centered.

"He represented extreme strength and intelligence, moreso than any Big Bad before him (with the exception of the Master, who was foiled by his own lackeys more than anything else)."

He was definetly powerful. He just didn't have much of a personality. As a whole he was just really dull compared to previous Big Bads. He wasn't really funny and he wasn't really evil. He was just doing evil things which really didn't make him interesting imo.

"He really enjoyed being evil but had a human side, which made him the best Big Bad--someone once said that the best villians are those who believe they're doing something for a reason and that they are right."

Now the Mayor rocked. All his little sidekicks too like Mr. Trick who was hilarious, and ofcourse Faith. He's what I like in villains, he was full of personality and always cracking jokes. But as good as he was, he's no Angelus imo. Angelus is the exact type of villain I like. I think there are 2 types of villains, 1 is the type that does what they do for power the other does it because they love it. Angelus loved what he was doing and took joy out of not simply killing people but enjoying the suffering that comes after the kill. That's something that none of the other Big Bads had. The scene in Passion sums up why I love his character so much.

He actually went to her house after killing Jenny just to see their pain. That's what I liked about him. He's completely evil and just loves it. He also set up that Jenny scene with her laying in bed and Giles being led up to her room with rosepedals. While that episode was suppose to make you hate Angelus, it actually made me like him. I liked Jenny and all but just seeing how Angelus operated was awesome.

"Although Buffy is The Slayer, she had the chance for perfection with Riley. But she chooses Angel (and later Spike) because she is drawn to the drama."

I don't include Spike in this. But I think the reason she chooses Angel isn't so much for the drama but because he can actually understand where she's coming from. He had to do certain things to get his life back. It wasn't his choice to do those things it's something he has to do, much like she has to be the slayer whether she likes it or not. Riley can't understand that. The majority of her life was just being the slayer and everything else was basically shoved to the side and that's something Riley never would've been able to accept imo.

 

[LakeEarth]

He explains near the end of season 7. When on the bike with andrew.

I completely forgot about that scene. No matter how much I hated Season 7, the Andrew/Spike relationship was always hilarious.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I skimmed the thread after it got big, so I'm probably repeating points.

Angel 4 and 5 is so much better than Buffy ever was. And I adore Buffy 3, it's just....it's just not as good. Though it probably could never be as good in my mind, i prefer the Angel characters and Angel situation. I prefer what the series is about too. Buffy is about growing up/being powerful and the loneliness that comes with it. Angel is about striving for redemption, even though you might never get it. Guess I just prefer that.

One thing I love about Angel is if you go back to the start of S2 and see how happy Angel is about the Shanshu prophecy, that he now has hope of being redeemed, then go to the final episode and he just signs it away without a moment's hesitation. He's just lost so much and gone so dark...god I love a tragedy.

S2 rocked (generally, people seem to focus on the last few episodes, which are funny but people don't want funny at the end of a season, they want drama. It wasn't the writers fault though, loads of people outside of the main cast, but who were important [Lindsey was one, others too] weren't available for filming, so they had to end the story quicker). Outside of a few episodes, I really didn't like S1. It was monster of the week, and not handled well.

Actually I think I made a list of my favourite Angel episodes, let me go find it...

My top 10:

Underneath
Home
Lullaby
Inside Out
Destiny
Life of the Party
Smile Time
Lineage
Damage
Apocalypse, Nowish

All from seasons 3, 4 and 5 you'll notice. Not that I didn't want to put in episodes like Darla, there's just too much good stuff to fit in.

I think people are really harsh on Smallville. Last season had a few terrible episodes, just awful. But outside of those, it was really good. There was so much stuff going on, it was almost 2 seasons (separated by the episodes Shattered/Asylum, ie. around the time Lex went crazy and was "fixed"). And the end, the very very end of the season, was great.

It's never going to be Angel, Buffy or Firefly (at their best), it's never going to be as good as the first couple of seasons of Alias, but it's entertaining stuff.