Buffy's Friends are Jerks.
- Thread starter MrAngryFace
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...but Angel never knew he actually "shanshu'd".
He thought it was about him becoming human, but in the end, he didn't realize Conner was his reward. He shanshu'd through Conner.
Conner is what completes him.
In my opinion. There's so much to read between the lines in Buffy and Angel. They both foreshadow heavily, and some of their characters never say what they mean.
Like Spike having 3 personalities. Spike, William and "Spike". How unlike Angel/Angelus, both Spike and William front "Spike" to hide themselves away from the world.
He thought it was about him becoming human, but in the end, he didn't realize Conner was his reward. He shanshu'd through Conner.
Conner is what completes him.
In my opinion. There's so much to read between the lines in Buffy and Angel. They both foreshadow heavily, and some of their characters never say what they mean.
Like Spike having 3 personalities. Spike, William and "Spike". How unlike Angel/Angelus, both Spike and William front "Spike" to hide themselves away from the world.
SolidSnakex
Member
MASB said:The ultimate spinoff would be with Wesley and Giles. Course there would be a lot of arguing over who takes turns researching and fighting.
After reading what could have happened in Angel season 6.
As for Willow, I never really supported her becoming gay in the first place, but the scenario of her meeting up with Oz again after Tara's death would have made for some interesting episodes. As it was, because of stupid fan outcry, financial matters, etc. we get stuck with Kennedy.It would have been best for Willow to be asexual rather than be forced to be with Kennedy.
I've actually thought of the "buddy" spinoffs of the series, but I don't know if they'd really work. If they did i'd always thought the best one would be Wes and Gunn but considering how their relationship panned out after Gunn started dating Fred I don't think that'd been such a good possibility.
Whenever the spinoff happens I expect it to be based around a single character again. I really don't think they'll do a buddy idea even though quite a few fans seem to like the idea.A Season 6 would've definetly rocked since Joss seemed to hint that it'd be similar to Season 4 with a really dark tone and a giant story arc. There was definetly a tone of potential with the set up they had. Picking up where Season 6 left off would've rocked too. Right when they started to charge, just pick up right there. I'd expect Gunn to die through the entire thing, but Angel, Illyria and Spike should make it out of it. Although I wouldn't be against Gunn making it since I liked him.
The Willow issue was fine even though it came out of nowhere. It was just showing that you can really fall in love with anyone. This though was ofcourse ruined by certain people (some of which didn't even watch the show) accusing Joss and ME of being homophobes when they killed off Tara. If they'd watched the show they'd known one thing and that's that with the series, relationships simply don't work. No matter who you are it isn't going to work. Whenever a couple would get close they'd be ripped away either through being killed or simply breaking up. Willow still might have dated a girl in Season 7 or a guy or maybe not anyone. But that whole issue basically locked up her dating a girl in S7.
Bauer Action Hour
Member
Bringing this thread back from the dead...
I just finished re watching season 7 (bout of insomnia, lots of eps in a row) and I've changed my mind about it. I'd say it was up to snuff for the majority of the episodes, w/ maybe 3-4 stinker eps ("Him" and "Potential" stick out).
The main problem w/ this season was the lack of follow through on the first evil and the abruptness w/ which Caleb and the Scythe materialized. The writers dillydallied too long w/ the set up and things ended too quickly. I didn't like Kennedy either.
Honestly though, I was surprised that I liked the season as much as I did when I got to the season's halfway point and it kept up through the end besides the above quibbles.
I think I'd re-rank my fav seasons as 5, 3, 4, 6, 7, 2, 1. I don't think the separations here mean much, since I view seasons 5 and 3 being at top tier of TV seasons w/ the others (except S 1) being right below but of excellent quality. Damn I love this series.
I just finished re watching season 7 (bout of insomnia, lots of eps in a row) and I've changed my mind about it. I'd say it was up to snuff for the majority of the episodes, w/ maybe 3-4 stinker eps ("Him" and "Potential" stick out).
The main problem w/ this season was the lack of follow through on the first evil and the abruptness w/ which Caleb and the Scythe materialized. The writers dillydallied too long w/ the set up and things ended too quickly. I didn't like Kennedy either.
Honestly though, I was surprised that I liked the season as much as I did when I got to the season's halfway point and it kept up through the end besides the above quibbles.
I think I'd re-rank my fav seasons as 5, 3, 4, 6, 7, 2, 1. I don't think the separations here mean much, since I view seasons 5 and 3 being at top tier of TV seasons w/ the others (except S 1) being right below but of excellent quality. Damn I love this series.
SolidSnakex
Member
"I'd say it was up to snuff for the majority of the episodes, w/ maybe 3-4 stinker eps ("Him" and "Potential" stick out)."
I don't think the problem really is the quality of the eps because as pointed out in terms of quality they're all fairly good, it's just when you consider they're suppose to form a story arc which they never really do. They're a bunch of stand alone eps with little story hints here and there that never really add up. It's a great season though if you prefer stand alone eps though. And according to the WB that's what people prefer since they forced Joss to make Angel Season 5 more stand alone than Season 4.
"The main problem w/ this season was the lack of follow through on the first evil and the abruptness w/ which Caleb and the Scythe materialized."
That was a HUGE problem. You can't tease a Big Bad like that and then not follow through in some way. They build up this image of an invincible being only to give us Caleb and the Turok-han. Yah Caleb was cool, but far from invincible or even really a challenge for Buffy herself, and the Turok-han became laughable after the first beat down it put on Buffy. I thought Glory did more damage to Buffy than either of those did.
"I think I'd re-rank my fav seasons as 5, 3, 4, 6, 7, 2, 1."
Whoa! Season 2 is the 6th best season of the series? That's definetly the first time i've ever seen that season listed so low. It's usually always in the top seasons for people.
I don't think the problem really is the quality of the eps because as pointed out in terms of quality they're all fairly good, it's just when you consider they're suppose to form a story arc which they never really do. They're a bunch of stand alone eps with little story hints here and there that never really add up. It's a great season though if you prefer stand alone eps though. And according to the WB that's what people prefer since they forced Joss to make Angel Season 5 more stand alone than Season 4.
"The main problem w/ this season was the lack of follow through on the first evil and the abruptness w/ which Caleb and the Scythe materialized."
That was a HUGE problem. You can't tease a Big Bad like that and then not follow through in some way. They build up this image of an invincible being only to give us Caleb and the Turok-han. Yah Caleb was cool, but far from invincible or even really a challenge for Buffy herself, and the Turok-han became laughable after the first beat down it put on Buffy. I thought Glory did more damage to Buffy than either of those did.
"I think I'd re-rank my fav seasons as 5, 3, 4, 6, 7, 2, 1."
Whoa! Season 2 is the 6th best season of the series? That's definetly the first time i've ever seen that season listed so low. It's usually always in the top seasons for people.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
Did you just rate 4 and 7 over 2? Oh man, it's all gonna go off now.
There are good parts to Season 7, I'll admit that. The episodes Selfless, Conversations With Dead People, Lies My Parents Told Me and Chosen are awesome and then there are other good ones like Dirty Girls, but most are average at best (and a lot are far below that).
The writers just didn't know where they were going. I've never heard that actually said, but it seems pretty obvious. Just one example is the First's talk of the being an order (for killing people). At some point they just dropped that completely and gave up. So was the First being mystically forced to kill potentials first and slayers last, or was it jsut choosing to? It doesn't actually make sense to choose to, you don't leave an established slayer to train potentials when you could kill her and leave them floundering. Now you might be thinking that the First wanted the potentials out of the way so no slayer would rise, that it's easier to kill lots of potentials then a slayer than having to do it to slayer after slayer, one by one. But Buffy's died, therefore the First knows pretty much everything about her (hell, it seems to know pretty much everything about people who haven't died). Therefore, it knows that if Buffy dies, another slayer doesn't rise. Faith has to die for a new slayer to come along, we know this because there was no new slayer when Buffy died at the end of S5.
Anyway, my point is the First can't have been forced to go after the potentials first, because it just abandons that plan at one point, but it also doesn't make sense to follow that order tactically.
So many more things annoyed me (demons are having to choose a side, but only that one who dates Xander and the Uber-Vamps went with the First? Yeah right, listen writers, don't put a plot point in just to make one episode work and then ignore it for the rest of the season), but it'd take ages to write it all up again.
I agree with SSX though, that ideas wise, this could have been the best Buffy season ever (if only the Angel team had been writing it eh?).
There are good parts to Season 7, I'll admit that. The episodes Selfless, Conversations With Dead People, Lies My Parents Told Me and Chosen are awesome and then there are other good ones like Dirty Girls, but most are average at best (and a lot are far below that).
The writers just didn't know where they were going. I've never heard that actually said, but it seems pretty obvious. Just one example is the First's talk of the being an order (for killing people). At some point they just dropped that completely and gave up. So was the First being mystically forced to kill potentials first and slayers last, or was it jsut choosing to? It doesn't actually make sense to choose to, you don't leave an established slayer to train potentials when you could kill her and leave them floundering. Now you might be thinking that the First wanted the potentials out of the way so no slayer would rise, that it's easier to kill lots of potentials then a slayer than having to do it to slayer after slayer, one by one. But Buffy's died, therefore the First knows pretty much everything about her (hell, it seems to know pretty much everything about people who haven't died). Therefore, it knows that if Buffy dies, another slayer doesn't rise. Faith has to die for a new slayer to come along, we know this because there was no new slayer when Buffy died at the end of S5.
Anyway, my point is the First can't have been forced to go after the potentials first, because it just abandons that plan at one point, but it also doesn't make sense to follow that order tactically.
So many more things annoyed me (demons are having to choose a side, but only that one who dates Xander and the Uber-Vamps went with the First? Yeah right, listen writers, don't put a plot point in just to make one episode work and then ignore it for the rest of the season), but it'd take ages to write it all up again.
I agree with SSX though, that ideas wise, this could have been the best Buffy season ever (if only the Angel team had been writing it eh?).
Bauer Action Hour
Member
Solid, like I said, the order at the bottom there means nothing except for Season 1 (which was still solid).
I haven't seen season 2 in a while, so I'm sure it could flip around w/ one of the other non S5 or S3 seasons. Day of the month you ask me and such. All of them are so close in my mind that I could easily rank them a tie, I just seperated them out for the sake of doing so.
I haven't seen season 2 in a while, so I'm sure it could flip around w/ one of the other non S5 or S3 seasons. Day of the month you ask me and such. All of them are so close in my mind that I could easily rank them a tie, I just seperated them out for the sake of doing so.
SolidSnakex
Member
"
There are good parts to Season 7, I'll admit that. The episodes Selfless, Conversations With Dead People, Lies My Parents Told Me and Chosen are awesome and then there are other good ones like Dirty Girls, but most are average at best (and a lot are far below that)."
Yep they all rocked. But Conversations really ended up being the seasons down turn. That was the ep that started stuff that they never even attempted to explain. I'd still like to know where they were going on the Joyce situation. Could've been an interesting turn to the series.
"The writers just didn't know where they were going. I've never heard that actually said, but it seems pretty obvious. "
That's kinda the feeling I got. Almost like none of the writers had been watching or reading the scripts of the other episodes. Kinda like they were all just working on whatever they wanted to do.
"So was the First being mystically forced to kill potentials first and slayers last, or was it jsut choosing to? It doesn't actually make sense to choose to, you don't leave an established slayer to train potentials when you could kill her and leave them floundering."
That really didn't make any sense. The First had the best chance to take out Buffy with the Turok-han and if they'd done that then taking over Sunnydale would've been easy for them since she basically led everyone.
"Anyway, my point is the First can't have been forced to go after the potentials first, because it just abandons that plan at one point, but it also doesn't make sense to follow that order tactically."
I can only think of 1 thing. It felt that by killing off potentials 1 by 1 that it'd hurt the confidence in the group which it did. Although with the Turok-han theyhad a chance of killing Buffy and there's no more crushing blow that they could delivered than killing the person that led them.
They could've done so much with this season if they'd planned everything out. They just didn't seem like they knew where they were going. The lack of consistancy with the plot was made even more obvious by it running along side Angel Season 4 which was incredibly consistant with its plot.
"I haven't seen season 2 in a while, so I'm sure it could flip around w/ one of the other non S5 or S3 seasons."
Heh it's ok, it was just kinda strange seeing S2 listed so low.
There are good parts to Season 7, I'll admit that. The episodes Selfless, Conversations With Dead People, Lies My Parents Told Me and Chosen are awesome and then there are other good ones like Dirty Girls, but most are average at best (and a lot are far below that)."
Yep they all rocked. But Conversations really ended up being the seasons down turn. That was the ep that started stuff that they never even attempted to explain. I'd still like to know where they were going on the Joyce situation. Could've been an interesting turn to the series.
"The writers just didn't know where they were going. I've never heard that actually said, but it seems pretty obvious. "
That's kinda the feeling I got. Almost like none of the writers had been watching or reading the scripts of the other episodes. Kinda like they were all just working on whatever they wanted to do.
"So was the First being mystically forced to kill potentials first and slayers last, or was it jsut choosing to? It doesn't actually make sense to choose to, you don't leave an established slayer to train potentials when you could kill her and leave them floundering."
That really didn't make any sense. The First had the best chance to take out Buffy with the Turok-han and if they'd done that then taking over Sunnydale would've been easy for them since she basically led everyone.
"Anyway, my point is the First can't have been forced to go after the potentials first, because it just abandons that plan at one point, but it also doesn't make sense to follow that order tactically."
I can only think of 1 thing. It felt that by killing off potentials 1 by 1 that it'd hurt the confidence in the group which it did. Although with the Turok-han theyhad a chance of killing Buffy and there's no more crushing blow that they could delivered than killing the person that led them.
They could've done so much with this season if they'd planned everything out. They just didn't seem like they knew where they were going. The lack of consistancy with the plot was made even more obvious by it running along side Angel Season 4 which was incredibly consistant with its plot.
"I haven't seen season 2 in a while, so I'm sure it could flip around w/ one of the other non S5 or S3 seasons."
Heh it's ok, it was just kinda strange seeing S2 listed so low.
MrAngryFace
Banned
I didnt really like/watch buffy after season 3, but watching seasons 1-3 sorta makes me want 4-7.
Even if I never get them tho buffy seasons 1-3 ties into angel seasons 1-5 who cares. Buffy does grow on ya tho.
Even if I never get them tho buffy seasons 1-3 ties into angel seasons 1-5 who cares. Buffy does grow on ya tho.
Escape Goat
Member
If the first could kill them all (And it could) what the hell did it matter if they did it one by one? The only one they needed to worry about was Buffy and Faith, who by the way, was the true slayer. Buffy had become the "replacement".
That is another thing that bothered me about Season 7 is that they let Buffy live not once but TWICE! Two times she was knocked unconscious and twice just left to have a nice little nap. It's not like another slayer would be called, she wasn't the slayer anymore. They didn't even come close to try to explain that.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
Tabris said:
It was a great scene.
Pity the rest of the episode was such complete shit.
Tabris said:
True, but one scene does not make an episode. I was recently been thinking of my favourite episodes per season, and someone told me "well you gotta have the one where Angel goes apeshit on Wesley and tries to kill him!" and although that scene does rock, the episode as a whole wasn't the greatest episode of that season.
LakeEarth said:
Not only did the First's forces not try and kill Buffy, but they didn't even use the time she was unconscious to go after the other potentials. The first time Buffy was knocked out, Faith hadn't joined them yet, and the second time, they were all out at the Bronze, where one would guess that an ambush would be a lot easier than if they were holed up at Buffy's place.
Just one of the many plot holes/dropped threads/inconsistencies that make up Buffy S7, I guess....
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
This isn't overly relevant, but I'm sure as hell not going to start a new topic for it.
You remember in the Angel episode The Girl In Question (Spike and Angel go off to Italy) there was that insanely hot Rome Wolfram and Hart CEO...you know the one with the huge....yeah? Well she's 51! Insane.
Felt the need to share.
You remember in the Angel episode The Girl In Question (Spike and Angel go off to Italy) there was that insanely hot Rome Wolfram and Hart CEO...you know the one with the huge....yeah? Well she's 51! Insane.
Felt the need to share.
MrAngryFace
Banned
shes a vampire!
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
Am I the only one who can't stop saying The Wolf, The Ram and The Hart now? It makes me feel cool and a bit tingly. In my groin.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
Ciao! I'm 51. I'm impossible.
SolidSnakex
Member
BuddyChrist83 said:
I'll probably have to think about it more but right now that church scene is the main one that stands out. Just how it happened was really shocking. Although you're right, alot of S7 doesn't work because it does very little connecting.
And that chick turning out to be 51 is just crazy. It's almost as surprising as finding out that James Marsters is somehow 41 years old. Talk about not ageing at all.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
I just watched that too, I love that episode (Awakening). All the way through you're thinking "Oh god, this is the worst Angel episode ever, it's so cheesy" yet it's still close enough to the normal quality to trick you and then WHAM! They got you.
The answer is Willow BTW.
The answer is Willow BTW.
Lots of great episodes in 4 though BuddyChrist83 said:
Not that I remember. Not only that, but they could have taken the opportunity to do some damage to the potentials. As is, the original Turok Han and Caleb both knocked Buffy completely out, then went and took a nap or something. There was all that fuss over wiping out the potentials, yet the bad guys didn't seem all that interested in doing anything all that evil.
DJ Demon J
Banned
Just watched Disc 5 of Season 6 of Buffy. Warren shoots Buffy and Tara! WTF!!! Unbelievable. Season 6 is now my favorite season! What a fantastic plot twist, Warren=Best Buffy Villian ever. :O
Escape Goat
Member
DJ Demon = brain fried
Season 6 the best? :/
Season 6 the best? :/
DJ Demon J
Banned
Teh Hamburglar said:
Hey, Dark Willow too? Skinning Warren alive? That's awesome. Way for the series to turn back to the dark side! Finally, some real evil. Glory didn't cut it as a big bad.
Escape Goat
Member
End of season 6 was kickass. The rest...wasn't
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
I liked S6 a lot too. Once More With Feeling and Tabula Rasa were great early episodes.
I think I liked it more as I was watched them all at once (didn't know how to get them off the net then, they hadn't come on TV in the UK so I got the boxset), which helps a lot as I don't have any time to think over a disappointing episode, I can just move onto the next.
I think I liked it more as I was watched them all at once (didn't know how to get them off the net then, they hadn't come on TV in the UK so I got the boxset), which helps a lot as I don't have any time to think over a disappointing episode, I can just move onto the next.
DJ Demon J
Banned
Oh, and Andrew is gay, right? His dialog when "The Trio" sees Spike and Anya (didn't see that coming, BTW) and in the jail cell with Jonathan made me think this was the case.
Also, I still laugh my ass off whenever I think of the scene where Andrew tries to take off in his jetpack. So fucking funny.
Also, I still laugh my ass off whenever I think of the scene where Andrew tries to take off in his jetpack. So fucking funny.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
I'm not starting a new topic for this, I'm not MAF, but apparently Joss Whedon is considering making an eighth season of Buffy in comic form.
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/index1.htm
It's not like we're ever actually going to see a new Buffy season on TV again, so I'm quite happy for it to go ahead if real, even if I'm not the biggest fan of comics. It'll have it's advantages too, he can bring in whoever the hell he wants without the problems that go along with actors (not being available, not wanting to, money etc.).
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/index1.htm
It's not like we're ever actually going to see a new Buffy season on TV again, so I'm quite happy for it to go ahead if real, even if I'm not the biggest fan of comics. It'll have it's advantages too, he can bring in whoever the hell he wants without the problems that go along with actors (not being available, not wanting to, money etc.).
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