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[DJ Demon J]

Yes he was "technically" a nice guy. His main problem is that he couldn't stand not being the center of her attention. If you notice all through Season 4 she was all over him once they started dating. But then during Season 5 her attention was then put on more important matters, her own family. So instead of simply understand this, he gets pissed and thinks she's trying to ignore him which wasn't the case. So what does he do? He goes and cheats on her with a vampire to see why she "let" Dracula bite her and why Dracula and Angel had so much power over her. The guy in the grand scheme of things was completely clueless and 100% self centered.

I think you're misunderstanding. Buffy ignored Riley emotionally long before the problems with her mother and Dawn. As he indicated to Xander in "Replacement," he loved Buffy and she didn't love him. She was detached; again, she's drawn to the bad boys (Angel and Spike). This realization makes Riley one of the more interesting figures of the series, IMHO. The writers even poked fun at most peoples' perception of Riley (dumb white hat cowboy hero) in the Season 4 finale (in Willow's dream sequence) but then showed that there was more of a dark side to him (in Buffy's dream sequence).

"Although Buffy is The Slayer, she had the chance for perfection with Riley. But she chooses Angel (and later Spike) because she is drawn to the drama."

I don't include Spike in this. But I think the reason she chooses Angel isn't so much for the drama but because he can actually understand where she's coming from. He had to do certain things to get his life back. It wasn't his choice to do those things it's something he has to do, much like she has to be the slayer whether she likes it or not. Riley can't understand that. The majority of her life was just being the slayer and everything else was basically shoved to the side and that's something Riley never would've been able to accept imo.

Again, Riley's return in Season 6 (with his new wife) was meant to show Buffy that it's possible to have love and a personal life in their line of work.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Yeah Giles at least seems to hop across to evil every once in a while. He's Chaotic Neutral! DND Character Creator Get!

 

[Mama Smurf]

I don't know if this has been covered, but I think Riley (and S4) would have been a hell of a lot more interesting if they had introduced Adam earlier and played on the idea that, in a way, they're both creations of Maggie Walsh.

Adam could have seen Riley as brother, Riley could have refused to believe it, Adam could argue it convincingly, we could see Riley struggle with it and eventually (he is a good guy after all) decide Adam's atrocities are too much. That could drive Adam to a complete rage...it just would have been more interesting to watch IMO.

 

[Escape Goat]

We could be increasing the Buffy thread with all these posts!

 

[MrAngryFace]

I think Angel's a better show because I dont hate the characters nearly as much, and I feel the central theme never got lost like it seemed to in Buffy. Plus its cool when people shoot angel with a gun not knowing he's a vamp and then he pops up and they freak out.

 

[calder]

Don't argue with SSX about it - he judges characters ONLY by how exactly they fulfill Buffy's needs and wants.

Character does Buffy's bidding = character good.
Character does not always do what Buffy wants, even if the character was well written and very justified in their motivations, and even if Buffy was a wacked out nutjob about it = character bad.


Riley was waaaay too good for Buffy, in large part because Buffy is not meant to be truly happy. She never really loved him, so he took off despite loving her as completely as anyone could possibly be expected to.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Riley was boring.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"I think you're misunderstanding. Buffy ignored Riley emotionally long before the problems with her mother and Dawn. As he indicated to Xander in "Replacement," he loved Buffy and she didn't love him. She was detached; again, she's drawn to the bad boys (Angel and Spike). "
They just understand her more than a human would. Riley showed that he didn't understand her at all with the vampire issue. Even if she was detached from him there was still no reason to do that.

"gain, Riley's return in Season 6 (with his new wife) was meant to show Buffy that it's possible to have love and a personal life in their line of work."

I think this goes back what was mentioned on the first page. There's a difference between choosing to do something and having to do it. Riley chose to do what he does, Bufyf has to do what she does. I'm not saying it would be possible for her to have a relationship, just that they'd have to accept that they'd always be behind slaying in the order of things to do on her list.

"Don't argue with SSX about it - he judges characters ONLY by how exactly they fulfill Buffy's needs and wants. "

Shhh!!! You're blowing my thought process.

"Character does Buffy's bidding = character good.
Character does not always do what Buffy wants, even if the character was well written and very justified in their motivations, and even if Buffy was a wacked out nutjob about it = character bad."

See now you see things my way.

 

[Tabris]

Speaking of Buffy love interests.

Didn't the "resolution" (heavy emphasis on "") on the whole Angel/Spike/Buffy thing suck?

 

[MrAngryFace]

They should do a spin-off on Anne, whoop exciting. Run that homeless kid shelter! Will she get enough blankets? The local vampire gangs are keeping her shipment of green beans in a can hostage!

 

[Escape Goat]

I'd watch it.

 

[Tabris]

If Joss Whedon made a show that involved watching a white screen for 45 minutes, I would watch it.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Hamb: Yeah she was pretty hot.

Tabris: A white screen seeking redemption

 

[Mama Smurf]

I loved Anne.

Speaking of Buffy love interests.

Didn't the "resolution" (heavy emphasis on "") on the whole Angel/Spike/Buffy thing suck?

The actual "resolution" was okay, but I didn't think much of the episode. There were some funny parts, I loved the slow motion fight, but other bits just didn't grab me.

And it was completely mistimed, it should never have been the 3rd to last episode. Especially when Angel showed no signs of going bad like he did right at the end of the previous episode.

My theory is that the episode was never on the cards for this season, but something like it was going to be in the next. Then they got cancelled and felt they had to wrap up the Buffy thing as best they could. I don't know if that's definitely the case, but it is for the Connor storyline, so maybe.

 

[MrAngryFace]

If I ever go crazy I wanna go crazy in the way Wesley did, that would rock. Id get some respect. Not like normal nutjobs.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Someone should start a thread on how season 6 would have gone, 'cos it'd be depressing and I could tell everyone what I think and scorn other ideas.

 

[MrAngryFace]

I just wish it existed

 

[Tabris]

The actual "resolution" was okay, but I didn't think much of the episode. There were some funny parts, I loved the slow motion fight, but other bits just didn't grab me.

And it was completely mistimed, it should never have been the 3rd to last episode. Especially when Angel showed no signs of going bad like he did right at the end of the previous episode.

My theory is that the episode was never on the cards for this season, but something like it was going to be in the next. Then they got cancelled and felt they had to wrap up the Buffy thing as best they could. I don't know if that's definitely the case, but it is for the Connor storyline, so maybe.

I was going to list the slow motion fight as one of my favorite moments, but I decided against it due to hating the "resolution".

They should have just left it unanswered. Angel/Buffy had that resolution in season 1. Spike/Buffy didn't have that resolution so much, but she didn't know he was alive. He didn't think he was worthy enough to see her again yet. (explained in talk with Harmony, then talk with Andrew)

 

[calder]

The one thing I know about what would have happened in Angel season 6 (pretty much confirmed based on cast interviews):

Spoiler

Wes wouldn't have died, and over the course of S6 was going to learn to "channel" Fred through Illyria in some way so that it was actually just Fred temporarily. So in effect Fred would have partially returned from the grave, with (I'm sure) hilarious consequences for Wes' mental health and facial hair grooming.

Nope, i don't know what I spoiler tagged those non-spoilers either. Except that it's DEPRESSING AS SHIT to think about how much s6 would have rocked.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Speaking of Buffy love interests.

Didn't the "resolution" (heavy emphasis on "") on the whole Angel/Spike/Buffy thing suck?

I didn't care for it much, but it seemed like something they put together to push the story along. Plus I think it helped Angel decide to sign away the chances of becoming human since Buffy was a main factor in him wanting to become one. Whenever the spinoff happens, whatever it might be i'm sure they'll go into it a bit more.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I heard, and I don't have any idea how accurate it is, that Oz was going to come back for season 6. I know for a fact that Joss would love him back and tried to get him for Buffy, but they couldn't afford him or something at the time. Seth Green was up for it in general though.

Like I say, not sure how real it is, but it makes sense given Nina's introduction to the series. I get the feeling Joss has always wanted to tell the story he was going to in Buffy S4 before Seth left, about how werewolves can't deny their attraction to each other no matter how much they want to etc. Only this time it'd be Nina tempted away from Angel by Oz, rather than Oz tempted away from Willow by Veruca.

I do know that they would definitely have started next season in a new dimension for the first few episodes. I think it was Jeff Bell who confirmed that that would be the case after they fought the dragon. So there's your answer people who want to know how the Angel gang could escape such overwhelming odds, they escape to another dimension. I'm not sure how, maybe a dragon's so magically powerful that killing it tears open a rift between dimensions.

I'm sure you've all heard them, but here are Joss's comments on season 6:

"If you buck the system and do your best to make it collapse, what if it does?...Next season would have been some serious chaos."

Feel free to burst into tears now.

Oh I just found out Jeff Bell said the stuff about Oz. Willow would have made an appearance too.

EDIT: On the Buffy/Angel/Spike triangle, it's not like they ended it. It's just another stage in the story, which just so happens to be the last part of it we'll see (I pray that's not true). Buffy's moved on (to some degree, we're not sure how much), Angel and Spike should too is the message. Doesn't mean they will.

 

[MrAngryFace]

FUCK YOU WB!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tabris]

I didn't care for it much, but it seemed like something they put together to push the story along. Plus I think it helped Angel decide to sign away the chances of becoming human since Buffy was a main factor in him wanting to become one. Whenever the spinoff happens, whatever it might be i'm sure they'll go into it a bit more.

He had already shanshu'd imo and became "complete" through conner. The final stage of that was the end of season 4. Season 5 was just his "limbo".

 

[fart]

oh man i really want to watch buffy s2 and s3 again.

wish i hadn't deleted the files :/

 

[Tabris]

oh man i really want to watch buffy s2 and s3 again.

wish i hadn't deleted the files :/

Stop being a jerk and buy them.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...ref=sr_1_7/002-5501800-5671266?v=glance&s=dvd

 

[fart]

i don't have a dvd player

 

[Tabris]

No PS2 or XBox either?

 

[fart]

correct

 

[MrAngryFace]

DVD sets are so worth it tho

 

[DJ Demon J]

Wait, fart, you don't have a PS2 or Xbox and no DVD player? wtf are you doing on GAF then? Your PC can accomodate a DVD drive for the low low price of $25. A normal DVD player for TV can be had for $50.

 

[fart]

well i seem to be talking about buffy on gaf. i also don't have a box pc with which i can accomodate this elegant dvd drive solution, nor do i have the disposable income to buy a new dvd everytime an old one wears out, so sorry about that. guess your utopian capitalistic society isn't working out so well after all!

 

[Mama Smurf]

He had already shanshu'd imo and became "complete" through conner. The final stage of that was the end of season 4. Season 5 was just his "limbo".

I really hate this explanation. Firstly, it sucks. Secondly, he doesn't become human. He doesn't even become vaguely human because of Connor, no more so than he has before for Buffy for example. Finally, when Spike came back to physical form, the universe screwed up. Why? Because he was another vampire with a soul (who's a hero) and the prohecy only calls for one. If the prophecy was fullfilled it wouldn't matter.

Unless you mean since Conner came back in S5, but I still don't like it. Besides, I don't think they'd focus so much on the Shanshu in S5 if it had already been fullfilled. Or if they did, there's no reason not to reveal this to Angel at the end, it's not like they need another season for that.

Personally I don't think you can just sign a prophecy away like that and the Circle of the Black Thorn were either just testing Angel to see if he had truly turned, or they wanted him to believe he had no hope left.

However, if he really did sign it away, he might well have just signed himself out of it, leaving Spike.

EDIT: DVD players wear out?

 

[DJ Demon J]

well i seem to be talking about buffy on gaf. i also don't have a box pc with which i can accomodate this elegant dvd drive solution, nor do i have the disposable income to buy a new dvd everytime an old one wears out, so sorry about that. guess your utopian capitalistic society isn't working out so well after all!

You don't have $50 in disposable income? How do you pay for your internet connection? Do you have a job?

 

[Tabris]

I really hate this explanation. Firstly, it sucks. Secondly, he doesn't become human. He doesn't even become vaguely human because of Connor, no more so than he has before for Buffy for example. Finally, when Spike came back to physical form, the universe screwed up. Why? Because he was another vampire with a soul (who's a hero) and the prohecy only calls for one. If the prophecy was fullfilled it wouldn't matter.

Unless you mean since Conner came back in S5, but I still don't like it. Besides, I don't think they'd focus so much on the Shanshu in S5 if it had already been fullfilled. Or if they did, there's no reason not to reveal this to Angel at the end, it's not like they need another season for that.

Personally I don't think you can just sign a prophecy away like that and the Circle of the Black Thorn were either just testing Angel to see if he had truly turned, or they wanted him to believe he had no hope left.

However, if he really did sign it away, he might well have just signed himself out of it, leaving Spike.

EDIT: DVD players wear out?

A) It doesn't suck

B) Conner was human. He may have had some demon aura, but through and through he was human. Angel (may have) shanshu'd through Conner. They didn't explain it like how they don't explain many things. Is just one of the things they leave open.

Angel's story was completed with "Home". The rest is just his "limbo". Of course this is all just my opinion and theory.

 

[Mama Smurf]

There's no "demon aura". He can't hurt someone when the anti-demon hurting someone spell (I don't remember the name) is in place, therefore he's either part demon, or fully. I think he's a completely unique demon, but he's still not a human through and through.

I still think that this season focused on the Shanshu more than any other is the strongest indicator that it hasn't come to pass. Sure, they leave some things unsaid...we don't know how Angel came back from hell (except that a higher power needed him to), we don't know if it was Joyce or The First who spoke to Dawn (well we do now, but not through the show) etc. But they explain the big things and they wouldn't focus on the Shanshu for a season if the Connor theory really was true unless they were going to reveal that to Angel (or us) at one point.

 

[MASB]

The ultimate spinoff would be with Wesley and Giles. Course there would be a lot of arguing over who takes turns researching and fighting.

After reading what could have happened in Angel season 6. So much potential lost.

As for Willow, I never really supported her becoming gay in the first place, but the scenario of her meeting up with Oz again after Tara's death would have made for some interesting episodes. As it was, because of stupid fan outcry, financial matters, etc. we get stuck with Kennedy. It would have been best for Willow to be asexual rather than be forced to be with Kennedy.

 

[Tabris]

As for Willow, I never really supported her becoming gay in the first place

:|

 

[Shouta]

The whole Willow becoming lesbian was totally out of left-field at the time if you ask me. Still seems kind of weird today.

I also don`t like the Shanshu through Connor theory myself ;p. I`m more inclined to think that Angel realized that his ultimate goal wasn`t to become human but to fight "the good fight" and throw a monkey wrench in the schemes of evil which is why he signed away his Shanshu (assuming that it was legitimate). That`s what really seperated Spike and Angel eventually if you ask me because Spike eventually started crossing into Angel`s growth slipstream some as both Buffy and Angel went on.

 

[BuddyC]

The ultimate spinoff would be with Wesley and Giles. Course there would be a lot of arguing over who takes turns researching and fighting.

After reading what could have happened in Angel season 6. So much potential lost.

As for Willow, I never really supported her becoming gay in the first place, but the scenario of her meeting up with Oz again after Tara's death would have made for some interesting episodes. As it was, because of stupid fan outcry, financial matters, etc. we get stuck with Kennedy. It would have been best for Willow to be asexual rather than be forced to be with Kennedy.

Fool, Kennedy was hot! Also, I wish Tara would have been in "Coversations With Dead People" AKA "The Best Season 7 Episode"

 

[fart]

Fool, Kennedy was hot! Also, I wish Tara would have been in "Coversations With Dead People" AKA "The Best Season 7 Episode"

they were trying to get her but it didn't work out or something

 

[Mama Smurf]

It was a money thing, they weren't paying her enough.

You see, it was really hard to do one scene and she knew the fans didn't want her back, plus her career's really taken off since leaving Buffy so she didn't need that money.

Hang about...

 

[BuddyC]

It was a money thing, they weren't paying her enough.

You see, it was really hard to do one scene and she knew the fans didn't want her back, plus her career's really taken off since leaving Buffy so she didn't need that money.

Hang about...

I thought she really wanted to return, but didn't want to betray the fans by pretending to be Tara when she was really, well, you know. That and the money. Still, imagine the impact of Tara telling Willow to slice her wrists.

 

[SFA_AOK]

I also don`t like the Shanshu through Connor theory myself ;p. I`m more inclined to think that Angel realized that his ultimate goal wasn`t to become human but to fight "the good fight" and throw a monkey wrench in the schemes of evil which is why he signed away his Shanshu (assuming that it was legitimate).

Not read all the posts on the subject but I'd say this is pretty much it. At some point in season 5 he tells Spike that no matter how many people they save, they'll never be redeemed. When he signs away the Shanshu, to me it represented that for Angel, fighting evil was more important than the "reward."

 

[fart]

It was a money thing, they weren't paying her enough.

You see, it was really hard to do one scene and she knew the fans didn't want her back, plus her career's really taken off since leaving Buffy so she didn't need that money.

Hang about...

really? i thought the only projects she'd been doing had been side projects with other buffy staff

 

[Mama Smurf]

You suck at understanding stuff fart.

End of S1 of Angel:

(Angel's not being sarcy here, he's trying to surpress how happy he is, doesn't come out well in text)

Wesley: "Shanshu has roots in so many different languages. The most ancient source is the Proto-Bantu and they consider life and death the same thing, part of a cycle, only a thing that's not alive never dies. It's- it's saying - that you get to live until you die. - It's saying - it's saying you become human."
Cordy: "That's the prophecy?"
Wesley: "Ah, the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. - It's his reward."
Cordy: "Wow. Angel a human."
Angel: "That'll be nice."
Cordy: "Wait. What's that thing about him having to fulfill his destiny first?"
Wesley: "Well, it's saying that it won't happen tomorrow or the next day. He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed."
Angel: "So don't break out the champagne just yet."
Cordy: "Yeah, break out the champagne, Pinocchio. This is a big deal!"
Angel: "I guess it is."
Cordy: "Typical. I hook up with the only person in history who ever came to LA to get older."

End of S5:

ANGEL
This is the Shanshu Prophecy.
SEBASSIS
The original.
SENATOR
The vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in the apocalypse.

VAIL
And as a reward, will become human.
SEBASSIS
A paranoid person might think you're trying to manipulate us in an
attempt to fulfill this prophecy.
ANGEL
I have no desire to become human.
SEBASSIS
Oh, good. Then you won't mind signing that pesky future away. Through
that document, the prophecy can be undone. Your signature there will
remove any opportunity that you will ever earn your once-precious
humanity. Will you sign it?
ANGEL
Of course.
(Izzy takes out a pen; Angel leans forward, begins to sign it)
IZZY
(grabs the pen from Angel, stabs him in the left hand with it)
It's gotta be signed in blood.
Angel grunts as he pulls the pen out of the back of his hand. He signs
his name on the top of the document with his right hand.

Sniff, poor guy. He's lost so much. Darla, Connor, Cordelia, Fred...it's no wonder he can sign away his only hope just like that. He doesn't have any reason left to go on. He just wants to hurt them bad while he can, and if that means his death and his friends' too, so be it.

 

[fart]

oh shit

see the thing is i never wanted tara back, so it makes perfect sense to me

 

[MASB]

Fool, Kennedy was hot!

I didn't say she wasn't hot, I just didn't like her character. Hot bodies and good characters don't necessarily go together all the time.

Tabris posted:

:|

-----------------------

Oh come on! I just liked Willow better in the earlier seasons. Not that I didn't like her later, but they changed too much about her in my opinion. Not all change is good.

As for Angel, maybe the guy became human at some point. Course we'll never see that.

 

[Shouta]

Now you see why I like Angel so much! So much stuff from early in the series connects with stuff later in the series in perfectly and a lot of things are foreshadowed long before they happen.

 

[DarkAngyl]

Count me in the not buying the Angel Shanshu-ing through Conner club. Sorry Tabris.

There was just too much emphasis put on the prophecy all season culminating in Angel signing it away. I have no idea if the contract would really negate the prophecy, but Angel thought it did and that's what mattered. He made a choice to do what was right, to continue the fight no matter what it cost him. That is just too powerful a statement, and saying that the prophecy had come to pass through Conner would be both a rip to everything Angel had believed in and would lessen his sacrifice.

As for Kennedy. She didn't bug me too bad, but if the other choice had been Oz coming back, then give me Oz. Oz fucking rocks! I didn't know they had considered that and now I'm bummed that it didn't happen.

 

[BuddyC]

oh shit

see the thing is i never wanted tara back, so it makes perfect sense to me

Yea, but the joy would have been Tara telling Willow to off herself instead of that generic thirteen year old Cassie. Just saying.

...now I want to watch that episode again. A torrenting I go.