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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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SickBoy

Member
Assuming the government winds up being some form of NDP-Liberal joint, I ask only one god damn thing. Fulfilling the parties' promises to reform the electoral system.

As far as broken political promises go, for my wishes as a voter, that would go down as the most cutting of all.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Yeah, without moving to a republican system I don't think term limits are practical in Canada. And I hope we never move to a republican system. I'm in favour of further limiting the powers of the PMO, not giving them additional legitimacy.
This is a bigger discussion, but I would be in favour of ending our silly monarchist Westminster system... I don't know what that means though, since ultimately that means an executive with more powers - either via an elected President or just through a formalization of the powers that a Prime Minister holds.

At least we could stop having the silly Throne Speech thing and all those arcane ceremonies that only exist because we still pretend to be a British colony.

Assuming the government winds up being some form of NDP-Liberal joint, I ask only one god damn thing. Fulfilling the parties' promises to reform the electoral system.

As far as broken political promises go, for my wishes as a voter, that would go down as the most cutting of all.
Have either party actually outlined how this will work? Because if it goes to a plebiscite, then it's dead.
 
NI2bRJL.jpg

I mean what other newspaper would publish something like this

this is literally comparable to Satire... sure we have left leaning news companies in abundance but what is with overly conservative news companies and their obsession with over the top headlines comparable to B rated movies trailers. If I was a right winger I'd take shame for ever reading something like this which tries to dumb down my views.
 

Sean C

Member
This is a bigger discussion, but I would be in favour of ending our silly monarchist Westminster system... I don't know what that means though, since ultimately that means an executive with more powers - either via an elected President or just through a formalization of the powers that a Prime Minister holds.
Becoming a republic would not involve getting rid of the Westminster system. We'd just have a ceremonial president instead of a constitutional monarch; there's no way we'd ever fully switch from a parliamentary system to a presidential one (and we shouldn't, anyway; presidential systems are pretty much designed to produce inefficient government).
 

maharg

idspispopd
This is a bigger discussion, but I would be in favour of ending our silly monarchist Westminster system... I don't know what that means though, since ultimately that means an executive with more powers - either via an elected President or just through a formalization of the powers that a Prime Minister holds.

At least we could stop having the silly Throne Speech thing and all those arcane ceremonies that only exist because we still pretend to be a British colony.

I don't think there's any pretending to be a colony in it, it's not as if the UK do it any differently. We share a person who is both of our head of state and I'm fine with that. I am not a monarchist at all, but I am even less a republican.

Have either party actually outlined how this will work? Because if it goes to a plebiscite, then it's dead.

I think both parties specify an all-party committee, some kind of public consultation, and then legislation to change it. Neither plan to do a referendum, afaik. The main difference is the Liberals are open to non-proportional options and the NDP are not.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Becoming a republic would not involve getting rid of the Westminster system. We'd just have a ceremonial president instead of a constitutional monarch; there's no way we'd ever fully switch from a parliamentary system to a presidential one (and we shouldn't, anyway; presidential systems are pretty much designed to produce inefficient government).
I still like the idea of actually being able to choose the leader of your country and not leave it to people who happen to be a member of a party that wins the most seats.

I don't think there's any pretending to be a colony in it, it's not as if the UK do it any differently. We share a person who is both of our head of state and I'm fine with that. I am not a monarchist at all, but I am even less a republican.
I just think the pretense of having someone the PM chooses to pretend to be the King read out the legislation as if they were the real head of the country kind of silly. The fact that the GG also has to make decisions like the whole prorogation thing also makes that even more problematic to me. In fact, it's almost worse than having a senate that acts like a House of Lords instead of a democratically elected upper chamber.

I think both parties specify an all-party committee, some kind of public consultation, and then legislation to change it. Neither plan to do a referendum, afaik. The main difference is the Liberals are open to non-proportional options and the NDP are not.
Oh, they're just going to jam it down Canadian's throats? I guess there's hope after all.
 

Sean C

Member
I still like the idea of actually being able to choose the leader of your country and not leave it to people who happen to be a member of a party that wins the most seats.
Your vote for your MP is effectively your vote for the leader. Nobody votes for a party with a leader they wouldn't want to see in office (unless they're just casting a protest vote for a no-hoper).

There are some downsides to that, admittedly, but it means you get an executive that can actually pass its legislative agenda, for better or worse; rather than, e.g., the current US political climate, where midterm electorates keep electing a House of Representatives full of GOP chuckleheads but Obama and -- until recently -- the Democratic Senate prevented them from experiencing the full consequences of that choice. The best thing that could happen for American progressive politics would be for the country to get to experience the full delights of 2-4 years of Tea Party government actually doing all the things they say they want to do.

I just think the pretense of having someone the PM chooses to pretend to be the King read out the legislation as if they were the real head of the country kind of silly. The fact that the GG also has to make decisions like the whole prorogation thing also makes that even more problematic to me.
He's not pretending to be the king, he's the king's viceroy. Regardless, I think that, especially since minority governments look to be more and more a thing, we should start having the House of Commons vote to approve the nomination of the Governor General, to bolster the position's legitimacy a bit for when he has to make tough calls. But otherwise, I like the ceremonial stuff; it's fun and has a nice sense of history to it.
 

S-Wind

Member
I'm not sure more democracy is inherently better. They elect everyone in the states and that seems like a nightmare.

Exactly.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

"He's the guy I would like to have a beer with!"
 

maharg

idspispopd
I like the pomp and circumstance almost purely because I think it's important to make power hungry people feel like they're playing a game they can win. :p
 
but we're are blessed with a way smaller population

so it is more manageable relative to the US that barely gets shit done

Not every job should be politicized. It doesn't matter how many people vote, you probably aren't qualified to decide who makes a good sheriff, or judge, or county clerk for that matter.
 
Not every job should be politicized. It doesn't matter how many people vote, you probably aren't qualified to decide who makes a good sheriff, or judge, or county clerk for that matter.

true... I am just saying that we can regulate and manage it more efficiently relative to the US and its larger population
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Your vote for your MP is effectively your vote for the leader. Nobody votes for a party with a leader they wouldn't want to see in office (unless they're just casting a protest vote for a no-hoper).
I suppose this will change if PR happens, but it prevents situations where voting for a Liberal in Alberta is basically wasting your vote. You also wouldn't need this silly strategic voting thing.
There are some downsides to that, admittedly, but it means you get an executive that can actually pass its legislative agenda, for better or worse (rather than, e.g., the current US political climate, where midterm electorates keep electing a House of Representatives full of GOP chuckleheads but Obama and -- until recently -- the Democratic Senate prevented them from experiencing the full consequences of that choice).
The problem with America is gerrymandering, which I guess could become a problem here as well (I still remember Sheila Copps having a fit when her riding was redistributed and she couldn't run where she wanted), but you could argue that having a combative legislative branch and executive provides for a stronger democracy because of the compromises that have to result in order for government to function. I suppose having an elected Senate could do that as well. But this is just fan fiction.

He's not pretending to be the king, he's the king's viceroy. Regardless, I think that, especially since minority governments look to be more and more a thing, we should start having the House of Commons vote to approve the nomination of the Governor General, to bolster the position's legitimacy a bit for when he has to make tough calls. But otherwise, I like the ceremonial stuff; it's fun and has a nice sense of history to it.
I think it's fine to have a GG cut ribbons and give Canada Day speeches and all the ceremonial junk that the PM doesn't need to be bothered with... but the fact that they have this ceremonial position that also could potentially determine the fate of the country is a bit out there. At least with England there's the excuse that the Queen is the Queen so there's no way you can get rid of her.
Heck, I'd be fine with the position if someone just created clearly defined rules for what should happen in certain political situations so that there's no ambiguity whatsoever. Maybe we could have been closing in on a decade of Dion-Layton if we had clear rules. lol

(I think the ceremonial stuff is silly too... like having the speaker dress up like the pope and carry a giant pole thingie... just because something is old doesn't mean we need to keep doing it!)
 

Cynar

Member
I'm certain what's going to happen to Trudeau is exactly what happened to McGuinty when he took over from Harris in Ontario.

They're going to open the books, brush away all the bullshit "surplus" window dressing, and see what an absolute shit show Canada's finances actually are. You know, the stuff that only "Honourable Members" are allowed to see.



Air Farce has always sucked. 22 Minutes has only sucked since Rick Mercer left.
Definitely. They'll also get all the blame too. It's going to take a long time to fix the mess that the Cons have caused.
We really need to institute a two term limit like the U.S.
No. We are not the US. We've had some great governments in the past that were longer than two. It's just unfortunate Harper has abused our electoral system.
 
Tough words, gotta back it up.

I backed it up last time you challenged the assertion. I think your words speak for themselves.


This would be much more effective if he hadn't mocked Trudeau for being pro-legalization right in the middle of a debate.

Ah well. I just love the poetic justice in the fact he started the campaign refusing to even call Trudeau and the Liberals by name, and now he's aping their policies and complaining that Trudeau won't return his calls.

It won't matter how long it takes.

I predict the new Conservative leader will be hammered with constant calls of "He/She is Just Not Ready" by Liberal supporters.

This would be a really bad way to try and brand a new CPC leader, because it wouldn't come off as very original. If the Liberals do win and the Conservatives are forced to pick a new leader (and, even more importantly, if the Liberals then go back on their pledge to restrict partisan advertising between elections), they'd aim to make that new leader unelectable on his own terms, rather than just mimicking what the Conservatives tried saying about Trudeau. The Conservatives' attacks on Dion and Iggy worked because they had a sliver of truth to them; likewise, the Liberals made Stockwell Day unelectable leading up to the 2000 election by seizing on the fact he was an extremist dunce. You want to go after something the person can't change -- i.e. if it were Peter Mackay (as someone I was talking to today insisted it would be), you'd go after him for being an empty, untrustworthy suit, or if it were Kenney you'd go after him for being an inept cabinet minister prone to saying inflammatory, extremist stuff.

Unless there's something dreadfully off about that Manitoba sample, man, the Selinger government must be sucking balls to have driven the federal NDP's numbers that low.

Lowest approval ratings in the country, and even NDPers out there aren't too fond of him. I don't know what he's doing wrong, but whatever it is, he's making that whole party's brand toxic out there.

From what I understand, new estimates need to be tabled by March 31st at the latest, after that the government runs out of money.

I don't think Harper would ever do that, anyway, as already stated above. It would devastate the party's long-term prospects for no real gain. And I'm pretty sure that Johnston would feel compelled to force the issue before then, anyway.

Even if we don't have a budget, as far as I'm aware funding continues at the previous level until there's a new budget. It's one of the many advantages our system has over the American one! That said, Parliament has to be recalled before June 19th, since the legislature has to sit at least once during a 12-month period. There's no way the GG -- no matter how much of a lapdog the position may be -- would allow the House to remain empty for eight months after an election.

Yeah, I think Outrement is a case where the accounting for past performance in the riding doesn't sufficiently consider the stature of the incumbent.

Don't forget Ignatieff lost in 2011, in a relatively safe Toronto-area seat. If there is a mad rush away from the NDP -- and considering even their most favourable pollster, Forum, is saying their vote is extremely soft at the moment, there may well be -- he could easily get caught up in the stampede.

We really need to institute a two term limit like the U.S.

Others have already explained why this is an awful idea, but I just want to reiterate: it's an awful idea. Term limits mean there's no time for institutional memory to get built up, and it means legislators have to be thinking about their post-political careers from the moment they assume office. I'd rather have people who understand how Parliament works involved in the process than seeing MPs get the boot just because of some law that doesn't even work in the Canadian context.

I know it looks bad now with Emperor Harper but the lack of a two term limit can be good too. I think Trudeau had like four terms and that was because he was getting shit done. If I were an American, I would probably rather keep Obama on as President than take a chance on someone like Hillary.

I think Yugoslavia had one guy (Tito) for like 40 years and he was damn good from what I've read.

Uhhhh....

In the years following the dissolution of Yugoslavia, a number of historians have stated that human rights were suppressed in Yugoslavia under Tito, particularly in the first decade up until the Tito-Stalin split. On 4 October 2011, the Slovenian Constitutional Court found a 2009 naming of a street in Ljubljana after Tito to be unconstitutional.While several public areas in Slovenia (named during the Yugoslav period) do already bear Tito's name, on the issue of renaming an additional street the court ruled that:
"The name "Tito" does not only symbolise the liberation of the territory of present-day Slovenia from fascist occupation in World War II, as claimed by the other party in the case, but also grave violations of human rights and basic freedoms, especially in the decade following World War II."
The court, however, explicitly made it clear that the purpose of the review was "not a verdict on Tito as a figure or on his concrete actions, as well as not a historical weighing of facts and circumstances". Slovenia has several streets and squares named after Tito, notably Tito Square in Velenje, incorporating a 10-meter statue.
Tito has also been named as responsible for systematic eradication of the ethnic German (Danube Swabian) population in Vojvodina by expulsions and mass executions following the collapse of the German occupation of Yugoslavia at the end of World War II, in contrast to his inclusive attitude towards other Yugoslav nationalities.

Benevolent dictatorship or not, I don't think Tito is the example to which our democracy should be aspiring...

My current theory of why the NDP campaign is off the rails is basically a combination of losing some of their strategist talent from Topp running in the leadership convention and the Alberta win making them think that a campaign-from-the-right-govern-from-the-left approach would work better than it did Federally. With better strategists I think they could have come up with a different approach that would have worked better. Combine that with probably thinking that Trudeau's support for C-51 and pre-election pledges to balance the budget meant they wouldn't be doing a campaign-from-the-left approach and they ended up being forced to the right to avoid the label of far-left that always comes to the NDP when they talk big about left-wing ideas, in ways that don't happen when the Liberals talk about the same thing. When the Liberals talk about running deficits it's prudent Keynsianism. When the NDP do it's left-wingnut overspending. Already have that dichotomy playing out in Alberta where they pretty much had to run a deficit.

From what I've heard from people who've spoken extensively with senior NDPers, I don't think your analysis is too far off. Apparently, their general attitude seemed to be that they could rely on the same forces that propelled Notley to victory provincially -- that they could just ride a wave of anti-Conservative feeling to victory -- and, consequently, they figured a safe, quiet frontrunner campaign was the best way to do that. In a two-person race, that may have worked, but I think they also made the serious error of buying into the Conservative attack ads against Trudeau, and thought that he wouldn't be able to recover from that for the simple reason that it worked so well on Dion and Iggy.

With that in mind, I think this column from a month before the election looks awfully prescient: the midst of the NDP phenomenon, only the stupid aren't terrified. I know the NDP jump in the polls mostly coincided with C-51, so a lot of people thought the two were intertwined, but...I don't know. I think it made them a possibility, and a lot of people were willing to park their theoretical voters there pre-election, but actually keeping those votes was another matter entirely, and by running such a laidback (or lazy, depending on how you look at it) campaign, the NDP killed their chances of winning those voters for good.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
With that in mind, I think this column from a month before the election looks awfully prescient: the midst of the NDP phenomenon, only the stupid aren't terrified. I know the NDP jump in the polls mostly coincided with C-51, so a lot of people thought the two were intertwined, but...I don't know. I think it made them a possibility, and a lot of people were willing to park their theoretical voters there pre-election, but actually keeping those votes was another matter entirely, and by running such a laidback (or lazy, depending on how you look at it) campaign, the NDP killed their chances of winning those voters for good.
If the NDP were relying on an Alberta-like strategy, then they really fucked up. Alberta only worked because, for all intent and purpose, it's a two party province. Wild Rose and the Liberals are mostly irrelevant.
 
I believe the cycle goes:

1. Conservatives mess up the economy and hide it from the short term memory voters via tax cuts and cuts in many government services until shit hits the fan.

2. New government takes over, realizes the shit that conservatives have left and must cleanup and so any promises have to be delayed because the shit has to be cleaned up - this likely means tax increases and more undesirable cuts.

3. By the time the new government has somewhat fixed the shit left behind via bandaid fixes, unfortunate broken promises and the occasional long term solution, the public opinion of them is considerably damaged and many now wish the conservatives back - i.e. the party of "low taxes."

4. Conservatives time it right, pounce during election, get back into power. Harper 2.0 emerges.

And repeat.
 

maharg

idspispopd
If the NDP were relying on an Alberta-like strategy, then they really fucked up. Alberta only worked because, for all intent and purpose, it's a two party province. Wild Rose and the Liberals are mostly irrelevant.

... What.

The Wild Rose were the official opposition, and the strongest one Alberta had had in decades (and the last party to have a strong opposition was the Liberals). The NDP hadn't had more than four seats since the 80s. Alberta has never been a two party province, let alone a two party province with the NDP as one of those parties.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
... What.

The Wild Rose were the official opposition, and the strongest one Alberta had had in decades (and the last party to have a strong opposition was the Liberals). The NDP hadn't had more than four seats since the 80s. Alberta has never been a two party province, let alone a two party province with the NDP as one of those parties.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seemed like if you were going to throw your vote to some other party but didn't want for the seemingly racist/sexist party platform, then you really didn't have another choice.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seemed like if you were going to throw your vote to some other party but didn't want for the seemingly racist/sexist party platform, then you really didn't have another choice.

Once Notley came out swinging, and with the Liberals in the midst of a leadership process, that was the case this time. But it was absolutely not some foregone conclusion or long standing tradition. Last election, the anti-racists piled on to the PCs. And if the Liberals had been prepared to capitalize on the PC campaign swinging right, they probably could have as well (as they did in 1993 when led by a popular mayor, Lawrence Decor).

It also helped that the WRP was in disarray after the defection of their (more moderate than her party) leader.

People have gotten awfully reductive about the Alberta election lately. I don't think people realize just how unlikely the outcome was, given *40 years* of often absurd wins by the PCs. The NDP moderated a lot to win, and it was very successful here.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
People have gotten awfully reductive about the Alberta election lately. I don't think people realize just how unlikely the outcome was, given *40 years* of often absurd wins by the PCs. The NDP moderated a lot to win, and it was very successful here.
Oh, I don't want to deny that the NDP worked hard to win there, but the PCs self destructing and the Liberals not being a viable option also contributed at least.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Oh, I don't want to deny that the NDP worked hard to win there, but the PCs self destructing and the Liberals not being a viable option also contributed at least.

It was a significant portion opportunity, yes. But remember the PCs were a party that was winning while their leader was a Quebec-born football player widely considered an idiot who had to move away from his home to get a seat he could keep, and he ran billions of dollars of deficits.

Like I said before, Prentice was actually probably one of the better people to hold the title of PC Premiere, and he ran a campaign that was only marginally worse than some previous ones by the same party.
 

Cynar

Member
Assuming the government winds up being some form of NDP-Liberal joint, I ask only one god damn thing. Fulfilling the parties' promises to reform the electoral system.

As far as broken political promises go, for my wishes as a voter, that would go down as the most cutting of all.

That's the biggest thing I want from this election.
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
gutter is actually from the future and knows that Tom is gonna sell us off to the US during his 4th term as PM in his dystopian Canada
 

Walpurgis

Banned
He's not pretending to be the king, he's the king's viceroy. Regardless, I think that, especially since minority governments look to be more and more a thing, we should start having the House of Commons vote to approve the nomination of the Governor General, to bolster the position's legitimacy a bit for when he has to make tough calls. But otherwise, I like the ceremonial stuff; it's fun and has a nice sense of history to it.
I'm afraid that this would make it partisan. Maybe Supreme Court people could vote.
Lowest approval ratings in the country, and even NDPers out there aren't too fond of him. I don't know what he's doing wrong, but whatever it is, he's making that whole party's brand toxic out there.
I looked it up on Wikipedia and found it. It's a 1% increase in the PST. I hadn't noticed. :x
On September 8, 2009, Selinger resigned from his cabinet position and announced his candidacy for the leadership of the New Democratic Party of Manitoba. He was running against fellow cabinet ministers Steve Ashton and Andrew Swan until Swan dropped out of the race on September 28. The leadership convention took place on October 17, 2009. Rosann Wowchuk replaced Selinger as interim Minister of Finance. He defeated his leadership rival, Steve Ashton, taking 1,317 votes among delegates, to Ashton's 685. Selinger was sworn in as Premier of Manitoba by the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba on October 19, 2009, the same day that Gary Doer was sworn in as Canadian Ambassador to the United States. Despite predictions of defeat, Selinger led the NDP to its fourth straight majority government in the October 2011 general election, surpassing Doer's record and winning 37 seats.

In April 2013, the Selinger government reneged on an earlier promise to not increase sales taxes by implementing a 1% increase in the provincial sales tax rate from 7% to 8%, which resulted in a precipitous decline in popular support for the government and, ultimately, a caucus revolt against Selinger's leadership culminating in the resignation of five cabinet ministers. Due, in part, to the unpopularity of the tax increase, the NDP fell far behind the Opposition Progressive Conservatives in public opinion polls. In the fall of 2014 several cabinet ministers privately asked Selinger to resign in hopes that the party would recover under a new leader, he declined. In September 2014, during a caucus retreat, several MLAs openly told Selinger he needed to resign but he refused. A month later, at the end of October Jennifer Howard, (Fort Rouge), minister of finance, Stan Struthers, (Dauphin), minister of municipal government, Theresa Oswald, (Seine River), minister for jobs and the economy, Andrew Swan, (Minto), minister of justice and Erin Selby, (Southdale), minister of health. and several senior party officials went public with their call for Selinger's resignation. On November 3, the five ministers resigned from cabinet due to their opposition to Selinger's continued leadership but remained in the NDP caucus as backbench MLAs. Selinger responded on November 9 by asking the party executive to hold a leadership election during the party's annual convention scheduled for March 6–8, 2015, stating his intention to be a candidate. The party executive subsequently agreed. Theresa Oswald, one of the five rebel ex-ministers, challenged Selinger for the leadership as did Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation Steve Ashton who had not protested against Selinger but who resigned from cabinet to enter leadership contest. At the March 8, 2015 leadership election, Ashton was eliminated on the first ballot and Selinger prevailed on the second ballot with 50.93% of ballots cast, defeating Oswald by 33 votes.
It looks like that maniac Selinger is perfectly fine with running the party into the ground. I guess I will be voting Liberal in my first provincial election.
 
I wouldn't be shocked if you hated Tom more then Harper seeing all those posts about him.... Then again maybe it is something I don't know maybe you two were former lovers
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Yep. I think this has got to be the closest three way races around. Given that it's a new riding with no incumbent or historical data it can be expected that pragmatic ABC voters would support whichever party is currently leading.

The last poll from mid September showed the NDP ahead, but that was prior to the Quebec debates when the party was still in the mix.

More riding level polling just released. This one showing that Vancouver Granville is a statistical tie. Lots of other good data in there from BC and Ontario. Looks like the Conservatives are going to lose a lot of seats this election.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/leadnow/Environics-leadnow-oct-13-15.pdf
 

mo60

Member
Don't forget Ignatieff lost in 2011, in a relatively safe Toronto-area seat. If there is a mad rush away from the NDP -- and considering even their most favourable pollster, Forum, is saying their vote is extremely soft at the moment, there may well be -- he could easily get caught up in the stampede.

The difference is that ignatieff ran a disastrous campaign and was a very weak leader at the same time. The stampede last election just amplified the liberals loss. The NDP campaign is safe, okay and not really that inspiring, but it is nowhere near the 2011 liberal campaign. Mulcair also is a better leader for the NDP then igantieff was. The nDP is also still strong in Quebec despite their support bleeding a lot there recently.Even with a stronger liberal party Mulcair has a high chance to win his riding on election night, but it may end up being a nail-bitter(he will probably win the riding by like 5% on election night).
 
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