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[lupinko]

 

[Simon Belmont]

Once again I'm not convinced people know what lobbying even is.

It's a bad word in a lot of circles.

 

[Walpurgis]

Is a campaign co-chair a part of the party? If so, I don't think it is normal for party members to be lobbying companies to lobby the government.

 

[Simon Belmont]

Is a campaign co-chair a part of the party? If so, I don't think it is normal for party members to be lobbying companies to lobby the government.

He wasn't lobbying, he was telling people who obviously will be lobbying who to direct their inquiries to.

 

[eBay Huckster]

This was already posted above, and looks to be a non-issue.

judging from the reaction of LPC campaign operatives I know and on SA, it's not exactly a non-issue (though it's nothing major - just another pain in the ass to deal with for the next 5 days)

Anti-thesis may be putting in strongly, but it seems like even the Conservatives, the party most towards the right here, is still to the left of the Democrats which are considered "leftist" in the states.

this might've been true at the beginning of the first Harper government

this isn't even close to being true now

 

[Silent Chief]

If I were an environmentalist in Montreal that was against or at least cautious about Energy East I'd be pretty concerned that TransCanada already has a channel into Trudeau's inner circle. Is Energy East a done deal?

This is a reminder that the Liberal party always has been a party of business interests. Apparently, despite the campaign rhetoric suggesting otherwise, nothing has changed.

All 3 parties are in favor of Energy East. The difference is in the implementation details.

The Liberals are pro business. Both Liberals and Conservatives plan on reducing EI contributions and only the NDP plans on increasing corporate taxe rates.

The Liberals will cut TFSA limits and income splitting which only advantage well off men with stay a home wifes. I make more than double what my wife makes and incomes splitting still give me back less than Trudeau's small rate cut would.

 

[Walpurgis]

He wasn't lobbying, he was telling people who obviously will be lobbying who to direct their inquiries to.

Why would he be helping these people? It looks to me like he wanted to be their friend...

 

[GSG Flash]

In other news, some of Joe Oliver's spending habits have come out.

He charged over $5000 each way on flights from Ottawa to Calgary (so over $10k in total on flights for that trip) to taxpayers.

He also stayed at lavish hotels, one of which cost over $1600 for two nights. Good use of tax payer money there Joe.

 

[Simon Belmont]

Why would he be helping these people? It looks to me like he wanted to be their friend...

Of course he does. Why would the government be hostile to developers?

 

[RevoDS]

I feel this whole "left"/"right" thing is too shallow to be really meaningful. The Conservatives very much follow a conservative ideaology. Of course what conservatism means in practice is highly dependant on context, and of course the political context in Canada is pretty different from that of the United States. So yes, maybe a CPC government maintains more social spending than an American Democratic government would, but I don't think that puts them somewhere to the "left" of the American Democrats, when their core ideology is very much akin to American Conservatives.

In a similar vein I think arguing which of the Liberals or the NDP are further to the "left" is also pretty silly. The parties have different core ideologies (liberalism and social democracy respectively), and just because these ideologies have lead to some pretty similar platforms doesn't mean the parties are "basically the same". Yes, these ideologies might have both lead the parties to propose greater infrastructure and social spending, but the thought process, values and influences that brought them there is different. For example, I would be pretty surprised if a Liberal started quoting Marx, but that might be something I'd completely expect from a dipper (although I suppose Marx has kinda fallen out of fashion in social democracy, according to Wikipedia at least). Other examples of the difference in ideology between the two would be that the Liberals were pro marijuana legalization right from the get go, and also that they're pro free trade (separate from the issue of the TPP, which the Liberal's have said they'd like to see before they make a decision, Justin has congratulated Harper on getting other trade deals done). Policies which I think stem from the ideology of liberalism but not really social democracy, which is why they're coming from/came from the Liberals and not the NDP.

In conclusion, trying to rank political parties on some left/right scale is asinine and ignores a lot of nuance in the parties values and core beliefs in favour of just ranking them, apparently, on who intends to spend more money.

PS. Instead of trying to decide which party is most "left" and voting for them, do some introspection and figure out what ideology you like best and support that party.

I respectfully disagree. I believe placing parties on a spectrum leaves way more place to nuances than trying to classify them in neat little labeled boxes.

The truth is, none of the Canadian parties are 100% faithful to any of the ideologies you mentioned. Their positions have all moved and are moving outside of the confines of whichever ideology led to their foundation, because that's the way it is. Culture and opinions evolve and so do parties. The left/right spectrum, while obviously imperfect, I'm not debating that, reflects subtle changes in reality and policy much better than mere labels do.

 

[Silent Chief]

It really doesn't. Advance polling has been up in every election for the last few years, some of which produced change and some didn't. It was up in 2011, for reference.

A Conservative majority seems very unlikely. A Conservative minority wouldn't be able to pass a throne speech. Even the Bloc Quebecois and the Green Party are not interested in supporting Harper, and that's probably only 3 ridings.

 

[SRG01]

In other news, some of Joe Oliver's spending habits have come out.

He charged over $5000 each way on flights from Ottawa to Calgary (so over $10k in total on flights for that trip) to taxpayers.

He also stayed at lavish hotels, one of which cost over $1600 for two nights. Good use of tax payer money there Joe.

$5k from Ottawa to Calgary? How is that even possible?

 

[maharg]

Did you read the article? cause it clearly says no one did anything illegal.

Since when is something only embarrassing to a political party if it's illegal?

Legal or not, this is pretty bad optics. I doubt it'll have much effect, but it's as easy to say "only people who like Trudeau would dismiss this" as it is to say that "only people who don't like Trudeau would care."

A Conservative majority seems very unlikely. A Conservative minority wouldn't be able to pass a throne speech. Even the Bloc Quebecois and the Green Party are not interested in supporting Harper, and that's probably only 3 ridings.

I don't disagree, but it's the polls and the leaders' own words that tell you these things, not how many people showed up to advance polls.

 

[Walpurgis]

Of course he does. Why would the government be hostile to developers?

They don't need to be hostile or friendly. They should just let those oil guys figure things out on their own. When they keep them in the loop like this and get all chummy, things get dangerous.

$5k from Ottawa to Calgary? How is that even possible?

The same way 6 deficits are possible while constantly cutting funding for everything.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Did you read the article? cause it clearly says no one did anything illegal. You realize that Lobbying happens and that they not only target the Libs, but also the Cons and *shocker* the NDP. You're seriously grasping at straws for something that is not illegal, making a mountain out of a molehill because of an NDP slide and a Lib rise. You like to call out gutter and matthew for being some die hard Libs or what you perceive as something that they shouldn't do but I've seen your post trying to sling mud towards the Libs because you want the NDP to win. I mean you criticize gutter and matthew but you're guilty of the same thing, but it's for a side you believe in.

This guy did nothing illegal, but this event is notable because this guy was part of the inner circle of Trudeau's campaign and this behaviour is indicative of where the power base behind the Liberal Party lies.

Many pages back we had a discussion about how much the Liberal Party had changed over the years. I took the position that it had only been 10 years since they were in power, they were fielding many of the same candidates, and it was largely the same party. People pointed at the promises of this campaign, dismissed my opinion and dismissed the idea that the Liberals could ever possibly govern as they previously had. Well here is some evidence that this is still fundamentally a party driven by business interests as it always has been.

I like a great deal of the progressive promises that the Liberals have proposed. I like Trudeau. I'm not a big supporter of the Liberals though because I remain skeptical about the party. Given the history of the party I think it's naive not to be.

I posted this article because I hate crony capitalism. It's frustrating to me to see Canada swing back and forth between two parties that are supported by the business elite when we have another option with few ties to business that the country has never tried.

 

[BigJonsson]

$5k from Ottawa to Calgary? How is that even possible?

First class is expensive

 

[Apathy]

Is a campaign co-chair a part of the party? If so, I don't think it is normal for party members to be lobbying companies to lobby the government.

The Liberals initially defended Gagnier by saying he was an unpaid volunteer who does not advise either Trudeau or the campaign on energy issues.

If he were a lobbyist, his email would likely have been considered a clear breach of the guidelines laid out by the federal lobbying commissioner before the writ dropped. Those guidelines advised lobbyists to avoid engaging in any electioneering activities — on the hustings or in the war room — that could potentially create a conflict-of-interest-in-waiting when they eventually go back to their day jobs.

For a registered lobbyist — which again, Gagnier is not — to provide strategic, if speculative advice on the post-Oct. 19 political landscape while simultaneously co-calling the shots on a campaign would almost certainly be seen as conduct that would raise questions — and eyebrows — if his or her party were to wind up in power.

http://ottawacitizen.com/storyline/...ack-to-the-dark-days-of-liberal-scandals-past

A lot of "If's" in the article. It's a none issue. Just reeks of trying to smear the Libs.

 

[Zombie James]

In other news, some of Joe Oliver's spending habits have come out.

He charged over $5000 each way on flights from Ottawa to Calgary (so over $10k in total on flights for that trip) to taxpayers.

He also stayed at lavish hotels, one of which cost over $1600 for two nights. Good use of tax payer money there Joe.

His riding is just north of mine and I've been seeing far fewer of his signs. Hopefully he'll get the boot.

 

[Walpurgis]

http://ottawacitizen.com/storyline/...ack-to-the-dark-days-of-liberal-scandals-past

A lot of "If's" in the article. It's a none issue. Just reeks of trying to smear the Libs.

I'm not really worried about whether or not he broke any rules, just about the larger implications of what this means.

 

[Simon Belmont]

They don't need to be hostile or friendly. They should just let those oil guys figure things out on their own. When they keep them in the loop like this and get all chummy, things get dangerous.

Figure what things out on their own? Who to contact? Energy East and the Government are going to be working together on a large project. Considering the amount of work they're going to have to do, I don't fault them for trying to get a head start.

 

[GSG Flash]

$5k from Ottawa to Calgary? How is that even possible?

He charged taxpayers to upgrade to business class so that he can "work" on the plane.

I wonder if that's the same excuse he uses to justify his executive suite in a 5 star hotel.

http://ottawacitizen.com/storyline/...ack-to-the-dark-days-of-liberal-scandals-past

A lot of "If's" in the article. It's a none issue. Just reeks of trying to smear the Libs.

Yup, a total non-issue and he technically did nothing wrong, but it was poor judgement on his part and an unnecessary distraction at this stage of the game. Glad he resigned unlike certain other Tory staffers who refuse to resign even after they are found out misleading the public.

I know the Conservatives will try their hardest to make this seem like he murdered someone.

 

[Walpurgis]

Figure what things out on their own? Who to contact? Energy East and the Government are going to be working together on a large project. Considering the amount of work they're going to have to do, I don't fault them for trying to get a head start.

I'm not comfortable with a party that could form government exchanging emails with oil men in the middle of an election campaign. It might be easier for them to do this now but I still don't like it. I'm against those pipelines in general but this is a step too far for me.

 

[maharg]

http://ottawacitizen.com/storyline/...ack-to-the-dark-days-of-liberal-scandals-past

A lot of "If's" in the article. It's a none issue. Just reeks of trying to smear the Libs.

Ok, now post the rest of what Kady said:

.. it could have put Trudeau and any number of people on his team in an awkward position should the Liberals form government,
I also think this was the only call the Libs could make. If they'd tried to wait it out, it would've consumed the news cycle til they did.
I really am sitting here shaking my head and wondering what on EARTH he was *thinking*. (Dan Gagnier, that is.)
Also, Gagnier broke what should be the only inviolate rule for a campaign co-chair: Don't do something that will hurt your leader,
I do think the Liberals should a) release the full text of the email and b) make it clear that THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR.
No more "the forms were confusing and the rules unclear" equivocating,

Wherein we learn that the legality of something is not the final word on if it's an issue or not.

 

[jstripes]

Wherein we learn that the legality of something is not the final word on if it's an issue or not.

Gangier, whose name is ironically "winner" in french, isn't going to be working in any political environment anytime soon.

 

[Simon Belmont]

I'm not comfortable with a party that could form government exchanging emails with oil men in the middle of an election campaign. It might be easier for them to do this now but I still don't like it. I'm against those pipelines in general but this is a step too far for me.

This could have saved us some time. Don't let your opposition to pipeline projects colour your view of what's happened here, though. Oil and Gas are huge employers in Canada and it would be enormously irresponsible of the government to ignore or try to avoid them. Governments meet with businesses all the time, and despite it not always being good, lobbying, when done properly, is a legitimate democratic practice. I'll agree it's not the best optics for the Libs right now, though.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Figure what things out on their own? Who to contact? Energy East and the Government are going to be working together on a large project. Considering the amount of work they're going to have to do, I don't fault them for trying to get a head start.

If we had good governance we wouldn't have TransCanada assembling their list of potential future ministers to chat up, but instead the entire process would be done through the bureaucracy and expert civil servants.

 

[Simon Belmont]

If we had good governance we wouldn't have TransCanada assembling their list of potential future ministers to chat up, but instead the entire process would be done through the bureaucracy and expert civil servants.

The bureaucracy is the last place these things should end up. Wait for some walking example of the Peter Principle to scuttle a multi billion dollar deal.

 

[Sean C]

I'm not really worried about whether or not he broke any rules, just about the larger implications of what this means.

People who belong to the Liberal Party are involved in business?

I expect the NDP will try to hit on this, to whatever effect. I'll be kind of interested to see what, if anything, the Conservatives try to do with this, because they've been doubling down on the Liberals as anti-business economy-destroyers, so trying to allege that they're secretly in cahoots with Big Energy is kind of counterproductive to the main thrust of their economic argument (particularly on energy, in fact, which they've tried to portray the Liberals as fanatically hostile to).

 

[maharg]

The bureaucracy is the last place these things should end up. Wait for some walking example of the Peter Principle to scuttle a multi billion dollar deal.

Well, the other side of that though is that it becomes an episode of Yes, Minister.

 

[Walpurgis]

This could have saved us some time. Don't let your opposition to pipeline projects colour your view of what's happened here, though. Oil and Gas are huge employers in Canada and it would be enormously irresponsible of the government to ignore or try to avoid them. Governments meet with businesses all the time, and despite it not always being good, lobbying, when done properly, is a legitimate democratic practice. I'll agree it's not the best optics for the Libs right now, though.

It's actually not my opposition to the pipelines colouring my view but a speech by Tommy Douglas that I heard from some stories thing on CBC radio last night. It was about mice (voters) constantly electing cats (Liberals/PC) to govern them. It looks like the Liberals are still cats. :/

 

[Popstar]

I posted this article because I hate crony capitalism. It's frustrating to me to see Canada swing back and forth between two parties that are supported by the business elite when we have another option with few ties to business that the country has never tried.

The last NDP government I was under – provincial obviously – lost its support when the police showed up to raid the Premier's house.

 

[Sean C]

It's actually not my opposition to the pipelines colouring my view but a speech by Tommy Douglas that I heard from some stories thing on CBC radio last night. It was about mice (voters) constantly electing cats (Liberals/PC) to govern them. It looks like the Liberals are still cats. :/

Were you under the impression that nobody in the Liberal Party has any links to business? No political party that holds power in a capitalist economy doesn't; merely holding power attracts such ties.

 

[Simon Belmont]

It's actually not my opposition to the pipelines colouring my view but a speech by Tommy Douglas that I heard from some stories thing on CBC radio last night. It was about mice (voters) constantly electing cats (Liberals/PC) to govern them. It looks like the Liberals are still cats. :/

I'm more reminded of a George Carlin bit, where he wonders if all politicians are these super scummy people, where are the good people to replace them? His conclusion is that they don't exist. We're all pretty much super shitty and would do exactly the same shitty stuff in that position. I think there's some truth to that. I think that it's naive to think the NDP would behave any differently.

At the end of the day, the question is: Would Energy East have lobbied the Government anyways? Yes? Then it's not really a huge deal.

 

[Popstar]

The funny thing is the guy didn't just tell them who they would need to talk to in a Liberal government. He told them who they would need to contact in a Liberal or NDP government.

Come on guy, have a little faith in your team.

 

[Stet]

Gangier isn't even an employee. He's a volunteer.

 

[Sean C]

Gangier isn't even an employee. He's a volunteer.

Since the concern some people have, as far as I can see, is the perception of being too close to business lobbying, I don't know that that really matters. His being somebody close to Trudeau is enough for those concerns.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Gangier isn't even an employee. He's a volunteer.

The dude was national campaign co-chair. He's not just putting in a few hours knocking on doors and putting up signs.

 

[matthewwhatever]

This is a reminder that the Liberal party always has been a party of business interests. Apparently, despite the campaign rhetoric suggesting otherwise, nothing has changed.

I posted this article because I hate crony capitalism. It's frustrating to me to see Canada swing back and forth between two parties that are supported by the business elite when we have another option with few ties to business that the country has never tried.

Yeah, it's totally ridiculous when you have senior advisors to politicians saying things like:

“Me? My BMW 325i is my favourite possession. There is no planet on which I could try to argue against the oilsands. I love all the good things petroleum does for me — including driving too fast on Highway 2.”

“I think we can get Kinder Morgan done. I spent the last six years working with companies of different sizes, including oil and gas companies, to find a path to get to ‘yes’ for major projects."

Oh...sorry, that's the new Communications Manager for Rachel Notley, explaining her past work for Kinder Morgan. I'm sure that your denunciation of the Alberta NDP -- who, after all, will be hosting a rally for Mulcair in the next few days -- will be coming any moment now. Wouldn't want those people with ties to the business community getting all up in any party's business, now would we?

 

[Sean C]

That's pretty much case in point there. To whatever extent the federal NDP has fewer ties to business, it's because they haven't ever been in government; being in power naturally attracts those ties, because business and government interact quite a lot. The assorted provincial NDP branches that have become one of the Big Two parties in their province have all acquired the same connections.

 

[elty]

The funny thing is the guy didn't just tell them who they would need to talk to in a Liberal government. He told them who they would need to contact in a Liberal or NDP government.

Come on guy, have a little faith in your team.

Staying objective and unbiased I guess. /s

 

[maharg]

I'm amused at how some of you don't see how this is at least a little bit of an issue and your responses to it sum up to "it's not illegal" and "everyone does it." These are like the political optics equivalents of "I'm not racist, but..."

 

[mo60]

If you guys remember liberal candidate chris brown someone found out that he said other controversial things recently.He contrasted Obama with a brain-dead monkey and said something awful about construction workers.
http://princearthurherald.com/en/po...s-to-shoot-construction-workers-632#pq=hd3Bp7

 

[Simon Belmont]

I'm amused at how some of you don't see how this is at least a little bit of an issue and your responses to it sum up to "it's not illegal" and "everyone does it." These are like the political optics equivalents of "I'm not racist, but..."

Huh? How is it similar to being a racist? What's happening here is that there are people in this thread that desperately want this to be something it isn't.

 

[Pedrito]

Worse than writting an email about how to lobby the future government is writting an email to mulitple people working for TransCanada without thinking at least one of them would leak it to help a theoretically more favorable party.

 

[maharg]

Huh? How is it similar to being a racist? What's happening here is that there are people in this thread that desperately want this to be something it isn't.

I'm not saying it's like being racist. Replace "racist" with any other "I'm not trying to be X" sentence.

I'm saying when you start saying those phrases you might want to question your motives in saying it. It's pretty rare that an optics issue is with the letter of the law, or that there isn't some real or hypothetical opponent who has done the thing in the past. It's not illegal and someone else did it are exceptionally weak defences for a behaviour, and it's really likely that if the shoe were on a different foot you wouldn't see that.

There'll probably be an Andrew Coyne editorial on this tomorrow. Whether you like it or not, some people find it an issue.

 

[Apathy]

I'm not saying it's like being racist. Replace "racist" with any other "I'm not trying to be X" sentence.

I'm saying when you start saying those phrases you might want to question your motives in saying it. It's pretty rare that an optics issue is with the letter of the law, or that there isn't some real or hypothetical opponent who has done the thing in the past. It's not illegal and someone else did it are exceptionally weak defences for a behaviour, and it's really likely that if the shoe were on a different foot you wouldn't see that.

So like you?

 

[Simon Belmont]

I'm not saying it's like being racist. Replace "racist" with any other "I'm not trying to be X" sentence.

I'm saying when you start saying those phrases you might want to question your motives in saying it. It's pretty rare that an optics issue is with the letter of the law, or that there isn't some real or hypothetical opponent who has done the thing in the past. It's not illegal and someone else did it are exceptionally weak defences for a behaviour, and it's really likely that if the shoe were on a different foot you wouldn't see that.

It's very likely if the shoe were on the other foot I would see this as not a huge deal. Mostly because he didn't break any laws, or divulge any sensitive information, or generally do any harm other than to embarrass his leader.

There'll probably be an Andrew Coyne editorial on this tomorrow. Whether you like it or not, some people find it an issue.

He writes for the National Post and has routinely made much more hay about Liberal transgressions than Conservative ones. I love the guy, but like every other human being on the planet (including myself) he has a bias. A pretty clear one from his excellent history as a writer. He's my favorite conservative writer, but he routinely has opinions I very much disagree with.

Also if you're against pipelines, I'm not so sure Coyne is the guy to hang your hat on.

 

[Holmes]

matthewwhatever,

If you're gonna defend your party by saying "the others do it too!", then you're not really defending them at all. So we're in for more backroom deals and corruption under the Liberals should they win next week. But we all knew that deep down.

 

[firehawk12]

To be fair, Dion is one of the Liberals' strongest policy makers in recent memory.

His work on Kyoto is what I remember him the most for. Too bad that was all for nothing and Canada is a "dead beat" country when it comes to climate change obligations.

1. Ralph Goodale (1993-2006)
2. Stephane Dion (1996-2003, 2004-2006)
3. Lawrence MacAulay (1994-2002)
4. Wayne Easter (2002-2003)
5. John McCallum (2002-2006)
6. Geoff Regan (2003-2006)
7. Judy Sgro (2003-2005)
8. Scott Brison (2004-2006)

Goodale and Brison are the ones being pimped out to Evan Solomon and Rosemary Barton, so I expect them to be in the cabinet if (harhar) they win.

Ignatieff is my favourite Liberal leader of the last 20 years. For all the reasons Harper tore him down, no less.

You liked that he was just visiting?? lol

matthewwhatever,

If you're gonna defend your party by saying "the others do it too!", then you're not really defending them at all. So we're in for more backroom deals and corruption under the Liberals should they win next week. But we all knew that deep down.

Yeah, I mean, that's just how democracy works. Corruption is inevitable.

 

[maharg]

So like you?

Like... everybody? I'm not gonna say I'm somehow magically immune to bias. But I'd like you to find me trying to diminish other people's negative reactions to some piece of news to show me how hypocritical I'm being right now. I try to avoid doing it, and if I do I'd like to be called out on it.

It's very likely if the shoe were on the other foot I would see this as not a huge deal. Mostly because he didn't break any laws, or divulge any sensitive information, or generally do any harm other than to embarrass his leader.



He writes for the National Post and has routinely made much more hay about Liberal transgressions than Conservative ones. I love the guy, but like every other human being on the planet (including myself) he has a bias. A pretty clear one from his excellent history as a writer. He's my favorite conservative writer, but he routinely has opinions I very much disagree with.

Also if you're against pipelines, I'm not so sure Coyne is the guy to hang your hat on.

I'm not against pipelines (I am pro-strengthening environmental law and review of pipeline projects, including first nations affected by pipeline development into the process, and other assorted things related to this, though) and I'm not hanging my hat on anyone. I'm just saying you don't get to decide it's not an issue because you don't get why other people have a problem with it. And things are never "not an issue" just because they're "not illegal". That defence has worked for probably 0 politicians since time immemorial. When people have an issue, they have an issue.

I'm sorry, though, I just can't resist:

Yeah, I mean, that's just how democracy works. Corruption is inevitable.