CitizenVectron
Member
Penashue will lose the riding, there is no doubt about that.
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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015
- Thread starter matthewwhatever
- Start date
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Good breakdown. I'm in the "middle class' bracket, but I don't want a tax cut. I absolutely don't feel I need it. It's just buying votes and it's fucking short sighted. Tax me more if you plan on running deficits and lets get some fucking money into infrastructure.
gutter_trash
Banned
The Conservatives can't be cheap on refugees from that region while using slogans and catch-phrases about freedoms and fighting evil.
if human rights, freedoms and decency is the reason why we are involved in air-strikes then there most be the human side of it which pertains to refugees.
To me, the Conservatives do allot of sword rattling and uses big tough words for the sake of appearances but when it comes to concrete results, they are full of shit. Their chest thumping has always been to win votes from Ukrainian-Canadians, Jewish-Canadians with the appearance of being tough on Russia and tough on Iran but WITHOUT any results about anything improving in Ukraine with little to almost nothing that Harper does actually helps the Ukraine.
The Conservatives on foreign intervention is all about appearances not end-game results.
if human rights, freedoms and decency is the reason why we are involved in air-strikes then there most be the human side of it which pertains to refugees.
To me, the Conservatives do allot of sword rattling and uses big tough words for the sake of appearances but when it comes to concrete results, they are full of shit. Their chest thumping has always been to win votes from Ukrainian-Canadians, Jewish-Canadians with the appearance of being tough on Russia and tough on Iran but WITHOUT any results about anything improving in Ukraine with little to almost nothing that Harper does actually helps the Ukraine.
The Conservatives on foreign intervention is all about appearances not end-game results.
Yup, it's getting a little silly in here for a couple of people....
If that's your logic, then they also deserves tons of praise for the thousands of Iraqi refugees and hundreds of Syrian refugees Canada welcomed in the last few years. Because that saved the life of some of them.
You obvisouly can't welcome an infinite number of people. There are wars, conflicts and brutal regimes in many places. We can't say yes to everyone. How many is not enough ? How many is too many ? If somehow North Koreans were able and willing to espace tomorrow, South Korea could not welcome them all. Canada could not welcome everyone. That's the cold hard truth. Could we have done more with Syrians ? That's a great question to debate. My own opinion is probably yes, we should have done more. And it's probably the same answer for most rich countries. But it's completely hypocritical to blame someone when NOBODY was talking about this issue last week, last month, and last spring.
This is not only about welcoming refugees and how many, but it is also about stopping Syrians and Iraqis from becoming refugees. And Stephen Harper was the only one with a real plan to do that. Was military intervention a good plan ? I don't know. I personally hate wars. But at least it was something. What was the NDP proposing to stop ISIS ? What was the Liberals proposition ?
This country let my father in 25 years ago when he had to leave his country for fear of death. I may not have been born here but Canada is my country because it allowed my father safe entry. To see them turn away a family like that when they clearly needed refugee status makes me wonder where my country has gone under conservative leadership.
gutter_trash
Banned
i agree with you that both the NDP and the Liberals offer nothing when it comes to stopping ISIS and this is their weakest issue.
But IMO, Canada should not be involved in military stikes while our ''allies'' in quotation marks in the region sit idle by doing nothing themselves.
what is Turkey doing?
what is Saudi Arabia doing?
what is UAE doing?
what is Qatar doing?
what is Egypt doing?
what is Israel doing?
Nothing. Our allies in the region have to step up too
Israel and Saudi Arabia spend more time talking about bombing Iran than stopping ISIS.
Not particularly. As a percentage of refugees in general it's not an impressive number.
If you can find these refugee stories that support the government, then I'm all for giving them that praise. Credit where it's due, but so far, from what I've read and seen, the negatives outweigh the positives.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
Canada, the second largest country in the world, where 95% of land is an uninhabited frozen wasteland, has trouble accepting 10000 refugees while countries like Germany are taking in hundreds of thousands? Thats fucking pathetic. This government cant get any douchier.
Both posters above: I was following his logic. I'm not saying they deserve praise. But I also don't believe they deserve blame. At least not much more blame than the other federal parties, or even Canadians in general. Nobody (or close to nobody ) really cared, just like nobody cares about children dying from starvation in some distant countries.
Anyway, everyone should read this: http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...an-kurdi-and-the-one-photograph-that-mattered
This is what I'm trying to say:
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all four leaders (five if you want to add Duceppe) found some common grounds, then came together during a press conference to announce a clear and detailed plan of action for the next few months/years, and to promise every party will follow that plan if they are elected. Canada's strategy. No politics. And bring provincial Prime Ministers.
Anyway, everyone should read this: http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...an-kurdi-and-the-one-photograph-that-mattered
This is what I'm trying to say:
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all four leaders (five if you want to add Duceppe) found some common grounds, then came together during a press conference to announce a clear and detailed plan of action for the next few months/years, and to promise every party will follow that plan if they are elected. Canada's strategy. No politics. And bring provincial Prime Ministers.
matthewwhatever
Member
Sure, they can get some small amount of credit for accepting Iraqi refugees. I'd think that doing things like circulating this mailer:
and violating the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to deny refugees basic healthcare and throwing immigrants into maximum security prisons for indefinite amounts of time outweighs that, but hey, if you want to praise them for doing one incredibly small bit of good, who am I to stop you?
and violating the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to deny refugees basic healthcare and throwing immigrants into maximum security prisons for indefinite amounts of time outweighs that, but hey, if you want to praise them for doing one incredibly small bit of good, who am I to stop you?
Ditto. The amount of money they're offering is nothing to the group of people they're offering it to. They don't need it.
If the "middle class" (the top 10%?) that Trudeau is targeting decided to vote purely out of their own self interest, they'd actually be much better off voting for the Conservatives to get the $5000 increase to annual TFSA contributions.
TheRealTalker
Banned
the current situation is a large scale multi tangled proxy war with some crazy pyschos on the side
Turkey hates the kurds and the Kurds hate the Turks
Saudi and GCC hate Assad/Iran and vice versa
Rebels from all sides getting funded by a bunch of different foreign powers
Russia wants to keep its navy base and is playing chess there.... the US has their agenda too... Some countries are building fences others are overly cruel and won't let anyone in... etc...
Too many sides.... too much backstabbing like the US ditching the Kurds for Turkey.... too much shady back-door arm deals to get a quick buck while advocating for peace
the place is a cesspool of proxy wars and agendas with a crazy lunatic bunch of ill-educated bandits in the centre
Choosing a side is like choosing poison while the citizens are tossed in the middle and suffer for no reason
Harper's attempt to place the blame on ISIL and away from his government's pathetic record on refugees strikes me as incredibly tone deaf. I wonder if this issue could blow up into something that could dramatically hurt the Conservatives in this election. You do not have to go very far to find Canadians whose family history involves running away from some terrible country or situation. I think the sympathy for refugees goes deep.
The election is over a month away, yes i think it can
Exactly. It's a real mess. I don't expect much from Saudia Arabia. I hold Canada and EU to a higher standard though.
No. It's not hypocritical at all. We can be critical of all of them, and laud improvements in any of their behaviour after tragedy, without hypocrisy. Also just because you didn't hear anyone talking about it doesn't mean no one was, or that no one was concerned about the evolution of immigration and refugee policy in Canada. This has shined a spotlight on it, but it was an issue before as it is now.
If what they've done is wrong, it's wrong. Doesn't matter when people noticed it.
You hate wars but you demand everyone we could elect have a plan to engage in them? This is hypocrisy.
matthewwhatever
Member
Here's what John McCallum, the Liberal MP from Markham, had to say:
That's from April.
April 2014, that is. And that piece references an older article, from September 2013, talking about how the Canadian Council for Refugees and the Syrian Canadian Council were trying to draw attention to what they perceived as a major issue. Like Maharg says, people have been talking about this issue for awhile.
I had a really long discussion about this at work this morning. I think that a very large majority of the population will be affected by the pictures, and I think there's a lot of sympathy for the plight of refugees, both generally and specifically. That said, I don't know how much overlap there is between people feeling that way and the Conservative base. Presumably, if you're still a Conservative voter at this point, it's because you buy into what they do, which means that on some level you agree with their policies on immigration and refugees. Will those people be shaken by what they're seeing? Will it shift votes away from the Conservatives? I'd like to think it would have that effect, and the people I was talking with almost all thought it would be damaging to the Conservatives, but...I don't know. I'm skeptical. I have a pretty dim view of the hardcore CPC base.
That's from April.
April 2014, that is. And that piece references an older article, from September 2013, talking about how the Canadian Council for Refugees and the Syrian Canadian Council were trying to draw attention to what they perceived as a major issue. Like Maharg says, people have been talking about this issue for awhile.
I had a really long discussion about this at work this morning. I think that a very large majority of the population will be affected by the pictures, and I think there's a lot of sympathy for the plight of refugees, both generally and specifically. That said, I don't know how much overlap there is between people feeling that way and the Conservative base. Presumably, if you're still a Conservative voter at this point, it's because you buy into what they do, which means that on some level you agree with their policies on immigration and refugees. Will those people be shaken by what they're seeing? Will it shift votes away from the Conservatives? I'd like to think it would have that effect, and the people I was talking with almost all thought it would be damaging to the Conservatives, but...I don't know. I'm skeptical. I have a pretty dim view of the hardcore CPC base.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Our economy is moving towards "specialized financial services"? Since when? All I've seen is growth in "generic retail services".
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Time and time again this argument gets brought up by people who's only understanding of history stems from their grandparent's schmaltz about the "good ol' days". Its almost as if people forget that the government used to give you a home when you landed in the country. Or the racial riots in this country's history. Or how we have entire provinces that are predominantly founded by one ethnic group. How the hell does that compare to a few people wanting to wear a rag on their head?
In un-biased speak and throwing superlatives in the dump, what is this about? (I mean the mailer, not your post)
If this thread is anything to go by, it won't do a thing. They'll deflect responsibility and blame other party leaders that aren't controlling government. They'll say things like "Well, we can't help everybody!" even though no one is asking us to do that. They'll bring up Harper's amazing and charitable immigration record, even though it doesn't exist. And if all of that fails, they'll accuse anyone that blames Harper's government for their horrible immigration record of being a partisan extremist.
Freedom to practice religion is not an entitlement, it is a right. If you don't like that, you're free to move to ISIS controlled territories.
pr0cs
Member
What are these people living in a frozen wasteland supposed to do to support themselves? Yes we have a lot of open space but its not used for good reason.
Just some general info...
Turkey apparently has about 18000 troops on the ground and is also involved with airstrikes in an effort to create a larger buffer zone on their border for the 2million+ refugees that they are also dealing with.
Saudi Arabia is apparently battling Houthi rebels in Yemen which came about when Iran tried to overthrow the Yemen government. They have both troops on the ground and airstrikes, and the Saudi monarch King Salman has apparently said ​once the Iranian-backed rebels in Yemen have been defeated, they will shift focus to Syria. Until then they are a member of the coalition and are apparently involved with training camps for the rebels fighting in Syria. Not sure where all of Saudi Arabia's funding efforts are going though!
UAE is one of the coalition members involved with airstrikes in Syria, although apparently their combat missions may have been suspended.
Qatar is also another member of the coalition involved with airstrikes over Syria and are also involved in local training efforts as well. However, their funding efforts are apparently also in question.
Egypt is also a member country of the coalition and are involved with the airstrikes in Iraq and ISIL in Libya.
Israel is apparently officially neutral in Syria's civil war, but it has carried out airstrikes in the country against Hezbollah. They are also apparently considering taking in some of the Syrian refugees.
These are the 10 Arab states involved with the coalition: Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.
Some missing information and assumptions in this post.
First, there's no evidence that Iran is behind the Houthi's takeover of Sanaa, both sides have denied any sort of collaboration. It's the same boogeyman the Saudis used as an excuse to send in their military to Bahrain and quell the Arab spring protests there.
Officially, all those countries are part of the anti-ISIS coalition but unofficially the involvement of the gulf Arab countries in the coalition is lacklustre or non existent. And, like you mentioned, there are suspicions of where exactly their funding is going.
Turkey only recently joined the fight because they were forced to after attacks on their home soil. Prior to that, they did not give two shits about joining the fight unless their mandate included getting rid of Assad for political reasons. And, on top of that, like with the gulf Arab countries, there were also suspicions of Turkey giving clandestine support to ISIS.
Anyways, this is extremely off topic but I think Gutter's point was that all those countries are giving lip service but very few are actually taking actions against ISIS or they have ulterior motives.
Thank you for the updated info, as what I wrote there was just a quick summary from the top and most recent news articles that came up in Google, and I was just curious about what/if any involvement of the coalition countries. To really understand what's going on in the region would take... well... I'm not sure if anyone does.
95% of frozen wasteland is a bit exagerated, there is still a lot of empty space in habitable regions to make more homes for people. I suppose the government doesn't want to spend the money for that.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
The point is Canada is a massive country with a tiny population in comparison to our land mass. The reason no one lives there is because there aren't many people here in the first place. We can easily take in refugees and allocate them throughout the country based on carrying capacity.
Iran didn't try to overthrow the Yemeni government. They're probably providing some support for the Houthis but that is as far as it goes.
matthewwhatever
Member
Unemployment rose, and the number of jobs created (12k) isn't anywhere close to matching the demand (which needs to be around 20k+/month in order to keep pace with population growth). I wouldn't call that "decent".
Welcome to the wonderful world of Conservative mailers! They like to find possible wedge issues and put them in the worst possible terms. See also:
I don't know the details of that specific mailer on refugees, but I suspect it had something to do with those Supreme Court cases about trying to deny refugees and immigrants health care services.
Positives:
- 54.4K full-time jobs, -42.4K part-time jobs
- Self-employment decline 21.6K, number of employees rises 33.5K
- Average hourly wages rose 3.4% in August, the fourth straight month pay has advanced by more than 3%.
- 1.1% YoY private job growth, in spite of a technical recession
Same. It made sense 50 years ago, but today it's just a waste of money.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Does anyone actually read mailers? When I get them they go straight into the trash.
gutter_trash
Banned
I use them as place mats under the kitty litter
Simon Belmont
Banned
My wife makes a point of defacing all of them, so there's that.
pr0cs
Member
So you are going to dictate where the refugees are going to live?
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
That's generally how it works.
NDP down everywhere outside of Quebec and the race is narrowing further.
Greens are eating into the NDP massively in BC and as a result Conservative support is neck and neck with NDP. Cons and Libs up slightly in BC too.
http://www.ekospolitics.com/index.p...s-try-and-sort-out-who-can-solve-the-economy/
Ekos' last poll here for comparison
Greens are eating into the NDP massively in BC and as a result Conservative support is neck and neck with NDP. Cons and Libs up slightly in BC too.
http://www.ekospolitics.com/index.p...s-try-and-sort-out-who-can-solve-the-economy/
Ekos' last poll here for comparison
killer rin
Member
How does that not violate freedom of speech. The man is wearing a fucking t-shirt, he didn't assault or kill anyone, it doesn't even advocate violence or crime. How does that equal being arrested and interrogated about if he is Canadian or not? So stupid.
_/¯Fingers crossed that the final weeks/days of the campaign see either the Libs or NDP breaking out as that kind of voter (which I consider myself part of) massively supports whoever has the best chance to form government instead of dividing the votes between two parties.
It would make sense for this to happen if their party preference takes a backseat to the desire for change. If such were your motivation, you'd make an eleventh-hour decision based on who's ahead.
Littlefang
Member
Haha that vote split is probably going to be bigger than I thought it was going to be. I wish the end result wasn't getting stuck with Harper again though.
CitizenVectron
Member
Even with a perfect split the CPC would need 35%+ of the vote to get a majority. A CPC minority was the most likely outcome from the beginning, though it's also still most likely that Mulcair and Trudeau will bring it down on the Throne Speech and replace it with an NDP/LPC accord/coalition.
this x 1000
gutter_trash
Banned
keep an eye on the trend, now that Summer is over, kids are back to school.
Labour Day is the real Day 1 of the campaign and when people slowly start paying attention.
The battle for Ontario begin.
historically, Liberals have produced great Prime Ministers and made good progressive advancements. Why try for Brand C when we can go back to a trusted brand that produced good Prime Ministers?
Ontario is the hurdle, might as well join the train and vote all Liberal
Labour Day is the real Day 1 of the campaign and when people slowly start paying attention.
The battle for Ontario begin.
historically, Liberals have produced great Prime Ministers and made good progressive advancements. Why try for Brand C when we can go back to a trusted brand that produced good Prime Ministers?
Ontario is the hurdle, might as well join the train and vote all Liberal
matthewwhatever
Member
I was lucky enough to chat with a prominent pollster who came into my work this morning, and he said that their current polling is showing a lot of movement from the NDP to the Liberals, to the point that he wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals leapfrogged the NDP. He also said that the Conservative vote was a lot less entrenched than people thought, and that their numbers are totally defying all conventional wisdom.
He also said not to trust most polls being reported in the media, since none of them have sufficiently large sample sizes, and all of them are playing around with probability formulas in a way that makes their data suspect. (He blamed the lack of money available from media organizations to do proper polling.)
And he said that he was highly skeptical of Nanos' techniques. So there you go, Maharg!
He also said not to trust most polls being reported in the media, since none of them have sufficiently large sample sizes, and all of them are playing around with probability formulas in a way that makes their data suspect. (He blamed the lack of money available from media organizations to do proper polling.)
And he said that he was highly skeptical of Nanos' techniques. So there you go, Maharg!
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