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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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Prax

Member
If it was Layton, we'd have a pretty close race in charisma between the two.

You're right! He's channelling Layton! :O
Layton's the type to look like a businessman getting "down to work" with rolled up sleeves in all his campaigning too! They have similar body silhouettes too.

I don't know where the NDP with Mulcair is really going with their campaigning and policies (trying to avoid looking like they may spend into a deficit), so I don't trust their follow-through right now.

Even if Trudeau is younger and possibly "inexperienced/is a puppet to his advisors" like others are wary of, I wouldn't mind so much as long as I trust the overall party and advisors. In fact, maybe Harper could have used a bit more listening skills and followed wiser advice instead of his own ego and we wouldn't be in such a big mess.
 
Pretty sure Layton wasn't the first guy to do the whole rolled-up shirt sleeves thing. ;)

RE: advisors, before the election one of Harper's former press secretaries wrote an article in the Post saying that his advice for the Liberals would be to focus on their team, rather than just on Trudeau. I'm not sure if it was the usual concern-trolling from Conservatives, and I don't know if that was the plan for the Liberals all along (and I don't know if I'm just watching too much TV, so I'm way too much of all four campaigns), but I get the sense that they're doing just that.

Did anyone see that P and P discussion yesterday that was on the deaths that happened in turkey.. The minster of immigration Chris Alexander was on and he messed up pretty badly
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/09/02/chris-alexander-power-and-politics_n_8079976.html

Amazing. And I love how Alexander looks like he's being held hostage in a bunker somewhere. It's crazy the extent to which Harper has muzzled all his candidates. I know he likes being in control of everything, but it seems like he's taking it to a ridiculous extreme this election.
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
My only problem with Trudeau's campaign so far is when he goes into that slow, practiced speech. He's fine in that commercial, and when he's asking questions frankly, but it's annoying when he does his "I'm speaking softly, and slowly so you know I care" thing.
 
If they were rejected, they were rejected. Not sure what I'm missing here. Canada unfortunately doesn't have the capacity to accept every person in a bad situation worldwide.

I disagree since the boy had relatives living in Canada, which by logic would be easier to reunite him and his s family if they would ever be granted refugee status.

A little compassion goes a long way. Conservatives can't claim to righteous than just go silent on foreign affairs matters when they tout their own "virtues" of being more hawkish about foreign affairs.
 
I'm not saying I disliked Layton more than Harper. If I'm ranking recent Canadian politicians in order of how much I dislike them, it would go something like:

Mulcair
(Massive gap that probably includes Harper underlings like Poilievre, Kenney, etc.)
Harper
Martin
Layton


Wait what? You have Poilievre over Mulcair?
 

Kifimbo

Member
Of course he did. Going on radio silence like everyone else in Harper's party are trying to do. >_>

If he stayed on the campaign trail, you guys would blame him for not attending the crisis.

Anyway, all parties are hypocrites here. They didn't care for months, and now, not because there is a dead child, but because there is a picture of a dead child, it's an emergency and Canada must do something.
 

gabbo

Member
If he stayed on the campaign trail, you guys would blame him for not attending the crisis.

Anyway, all parties are hypocrites here. They didn't care for months, and now, not because there is a dead child, but because there is a picture of a dead child, it's an emergency and Canada must do something.

If he can't do his job and handle his campaign, he shouldn't have the job.
 
If they were rejected, they were rejected. Not sure what I'm missing here. Canada unfortunately doesn't have the capacity to accept every person in a bad situation worldwide.

This family, specifically, would've been here as private refugees, meaning their family would've supported them. Don't see how that places an enormous burden on our capacity.

Wait what? You have Poilievre over Mulcair?

I think so. Poilievre is my mom's MP, so I'm well aware of what a slimy little douchebag he is, but...yeah. Still dislike Mulcair more, since I don't think Poilievre has ever pretended to be anything but a smarmy robot. But it's close.

If he stayed on the campaign trail, you guys would blame him for not attending the crisis.

Anyway, all parties are hypocrites here. They didn't care for months, and now, not because there is a dead child, but because there is a picture of a dead child, it's an emergency and Canada must do something.

The Liberals were calling for increasing refugee admittance back in May (at least), so it's not like they're just raising the issue now. That, in part, is what led to the last time Alexander got in trouble, when he attacked the Liberals for being racist for their immigration policies under Mackenzie King.
 

Cake Boss

Banned
If they were rejected, they were rejected. Not sure what I'm missing here. Canada unfortunately doesn't have the capacity to accept every person in a bad situation worldwide.

Yes they do, the UN asked to take in 10k and we didn't do shit.

And his family was already living in Canada and were sponsoring the immigration.

Have some fucking compassion, 2 kids just drowned because of shitty ideologies.
 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-alexander-refugee-crisis-1.3213869

Chris Alexander suspends re-election campaign in wake of refugee crisis

That was quick, and thank fuck (from the National Post):

Citizenship and Immigration Minister Chris Alexander could not be reached for comment, but Port Moody – Coquitlam NDP MP Fin Donnelly said he’d hand-delivered the Kurdis’ file to Alexander earlier this year.

Alexander said he’d look into it, Donnelly said, but the Kurdis’ application was rejected in June.

He won't be allowed to destroy any more lives.
 

Cake Boss

Banned
Just read an article in a newspaper about Harper...

He really REALLY doesn't want to say "recession", does he? He's acting almost delusional about it.

"Canadian economy went up in June! Canadian economy went up in June!"

It only went up because of the E3 pre orders deals from Amazon and Best Buy.
 
This family, specifically, would've been here as private refugees, meaning their family would've supported them. Don't see how that places an enormous burden on our capacity.



I think so. Poilievre is my mom's MP, so I'm well aware of what a slimy little douchebag he is, but...yeah. Still dislike Mulcair more, since I don't think Poilievre has ever pretended to be anything but a smarmy robot. But it's close.



The Liberals were calling for increasing refugee admittance back in May (at least), so it's not like they're just raising the issue now. That, in part, is what led to the last time Alexander got in trouble, when he attacked the Liberals for being racist for their immigration policies under Mackenzie King.

Your logic is childish, at best. You are choosing to not like a decent person who shifts positions based on polling over a slimeball who is consistent. For the purpose of using extremes to illustrate a point, that's like saying you'd like Stalin or Hitler over Jesus if Jesus started to shift to the centre over time. It doesn't make sense.

Yes we should take people's change of opinions or hypocrisy into account when forming opinions, but a good person who has changed a bit (or compromised) is still better than a bad person who remains consistent. Not sure where this attitude comes from.
 
Your logic is childish, at best. You are choosing to not like a decent person who shifts positions based on polling over a slimeball who is consistent. For the purpose of using extremes to illustrate a point, that's like saying you'd like Stalin or Hitler over Jesus if Jesus started to shift to the centre over time. It doesn't make sense.

Yes we should take people's change of opinions or hypocrisy into account when forming opinions, but a good person who has changed a bit (or compromised) is still better than a bad person who remains consistent. Not sure where this attitude comes from.

Well I don't think Mulcair is a fundamentally decent person, or that he has changed his opinions in any way, so....

That was quick, and thank fuck (from the National Post):

He won't be allowed to destroy any more lives.

Yep. Alexander was already in a really tough re-election battle in Ajax-Pickering against Mark Holland. I can't imagine he wins after this.
 
I don't really like Mulcair either, mostly because he plays Harper-style nasty politics, but it doesn't really matter much. If they stick to their promise of electoral reform that's all that really matters with this election.

In general what I want to see from federal government is far better transfers from federal to provincial / municipal governments. Both NDP and Liberal have plans that incorporate this. As long as they don't do anything outrageously stupid outside of that I don't really care.

After electoral reform happens (hopefully) I'll probably switch to voting Green, even though I don't care much for Ms. May either.
 
I'm more a fan of May than I am of the Greens, but I have to say, the policies they've been coming out with so far this election have been really impressive. I know it'll never be a reality, but it's a shame that the Guaranteed Living Income idea doesn't have more traction.
 
I'm more a fan of May than I am of the Greens, but I have to say, the policies they've been coming out with so far this election have been really impressive. I know it'll never be a reality, but it's a shame that the Guaranteed Living Income idea doesn't have more traction.

A lot of people just aren't willing to give that party a chance but if PR were to happen and the stakes for each vote weren't so high I think you'd likely see 10 - 20% of the seats go their way, more than enough to be a serious force in parliament. If they were the balance in a coalition government you'd start to see a lot of their policies become reality.
 

Silexx

Member
I'm more a fan of May than I am of the Greens, but I have to say, the policies they've been coming out with so far this election have been really impressive. I know it'll never be a reality, but it's a shame that the Guaranteed Living Income idea doesn't have more traction.

Yeah, but it's kind of funny how she vows to return door-to-door mail delivery which is actually antithetical to environmentally friendly policy.
 

Azih

Member
The same thing is true for the Greens right now that was true for the NDP until 2011. A lot of people like the ideas but know that a vote for them would be wasted because only one of the big parties have a chance of winning their riding.

It took the unexpected Notley win in Alberta, combined with the almost absurdly astounding Layton sweep of Quebec in 2011, to finally make the NDP seem competitive in Canada and allowed many Canadians to even consider voting NDP. It took TWO massively historical shifts in quick succession (electorally speaking) to bust the NDP out of their 20% traditional ceiling.

With PR the concept of a safe riding goes away and support for the Greens will shoot up as people won't feel (rightly) that it's a wasted vote anymore. May/The Greens would also be able to campaign all across the country instead of just sticking to Vancouver.
 
I'm more a fan of May than I am of the Greens, but I have to say, the policies they've been coming out with so far this election have been really impressive. I know it'll never be a reality, but it's a shame that the Guaranteed Living Income idea doesn't have more traction.

A guaranteed income supplement would be great, but I doubt it is feasible given how spread out our population is, the discrepancies between cost-of-living from one area to another even within a province, our general adversion to interprovincial mobility, the level of provincial control over labour and welfare regulations, issues with interprovincial trade and certification... While I don't share their views on many things, the report put out be the Fraser Institute does raise some good questions and posits many barriers that would likely make it grossly inefficient and a nightmare to implement. One major issue is that we tend not to differentiate our economy very well and too often rely on only a few sources which are prone to severe business cycles (thus undermining a stable revenue source by which to fund the system). It does deserve more of a look and I believe out of the big 3 parties, the Liberals are the ones that have mentioned it as a consideration.
 

Willectro

Banned
Yes they do, the UN asked to take in 10k and we didn't do shit.

And his family was already living in Canada and were sponsoring the immigration.

Have some fucking compassion, 2 kids just drowned because of shitty ideologies.

It's not a matter of compassion. If they weren't kids, it wouldn't even be news and you wouldn't care or know about it. It's sad and unfortunate, but that aspect is slightly off topic.

I think Canada and our future PM need to be extremely cautious and selective of who is allowed into our country. No one is entitled to immigrate, at all. We need to take care of our own people first before anything else. There are numerous groups of people that need assistance: veterans, Natives, disabled, elderly, mentally ill, homeless, etc. There will continue to be conflict worldwide and suffering, so you are kidding yourself if you think we can house all of the people in need. On top of that, there is fuck all for jobs for our own population... don't need more employment competition, thanks.
 

Azih

Member
But Willectro you're not in favour of policies that take care of Natives, disabled, elderly, mentally ill, homeless, etc either!

Plus immigration is one of the major factors keeping the economies of Western nations with declining population afloat. A workforce, and people to buy things, are kinda necessary things especially in the face of an aging population.
 
My only problem with Trudeau's campaign so far is when he goes into that slow, practiced speech. He's fine in that commercial, and when he's asking questions frankly, but it's annoying when he does his "I'm speaking softly, and slowly so you know I care" thing.

This is exactly what I hate about him.

He comes off as pretty dense and insincere because he can't naturally articulate his thoughts.

To be honest, with the flip flops on C51 and deficit spending, no one should be taking the Liberals seriously. It's pretty obvious that they are pandering to the left to get some votes from the NDP but they would completely change tact if they were elected.
 
But Willectro you're not in favour of policies that take care of Natives, disabled, elderly, mentally ill, homeless, etc either!

Plus immigration is one of the major factors keeping the economies of Western nations with declining population afloat. A workforce, and people to buy things, are kinda necessary things especially in the face of an aging population.

While I don't think we should turn our back on any marginalized group - bringing in more low skilled workers is not an answer to our economic issues, especially as our economy transfers away from labour-based and more towards specialized financial services. While aliens with exceptional abilities and other skilled immigrants do help keep the economic machine progressing, low skilled immigrants and non-immigrants have a much smaller place in the future of our economy (given the current course). Add to that the fact that second generation immigrants actually have birth rates similar to other non-immigrant Canadians and we see that the declining population is the result of something that will require more intervention than just replacement from outside sources.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
such a Vancouver and Vancouver Island mentality

good luck with that with 30cm of snow in Atlantic provinces

It's weird for you say this because Montreal has vastly better cycling infrastructure than Vancouver or just about any other North American city for that matter.

Cycling in winter is not that bad at all. The solution is simply to shovel the bike lanes.
 

Pedrito

Member
My only problem with Trudeau's campaign so far is when he goes into that slow, practiced speech. He's fine in that commercial, and when he's asking questions frankly, but it's annoying when he does his "I'm speaking softly, and slowly so you know I care" thing.

This is exactly what I hate about him.

He comes off as pretty dense and insincere because he can't naturally articulate his thoughts.

To be honest, with the flip flops on C51 and deficit spending, no one should be taking the Liberals seriously. It's pretty obvious that they are pandering to the left to get some votes from the NDP but they would completely change tact if they were elected.

Yep. His public speaking skills are at "awkward guy running for class president" level. It makes him sound way dumber than he really is.

Trudeau + Obama's public speaking skills probably = 40%+ in the polls.
 

Silexx

Member
Ooof. So Trudeau is going all in against the government for its handling of the Syrian refugees and demanding apologies from Harper, Alexander and Kenney. Meanwhile, Muclair is taking the reasoned approach saying that the more pressing issue is resolving Canada's response to the refugee crisis.
 
Ooof. So Trudeau is going all in against the government for its handling of the Syrian refugees and demanding apologies from Harper, Alexander and Kenney. Meanwhile, Muclair is taking the reasoned approach saying that the more pressing issue is resolving Canada's response to the refugee crisis.

They're kind of both right. Mulcair's stance first, Trudeau's second.
 
It's weird for you say this because Montreal has vastly better cycling infrastructure than Vancouver or just about any other North American city for that matter.

Cycling in winter is not that bad at all. The solution is simply to shovel the bike lanes.

Mail delivery person uses Mail trucks and should be permitted to park anywhere almost to deliver mail even in busy urban centers.

About Iraq-Syria, eventually force will have to be used but I have big concerns about the reluctance from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait and Turkey to be more pro-actively involved at stopping ISIS

I feel that those Sunni countries are giving ISIS a free pass just because they are Sunni and anti-Shiite so Saudi Arabia turns a blind eye away at ISIS meanwhile Saudi Arabia is actively squashing Shiite factions in Yemen.

As for the refugee crisis, there should be a share effort among developed democracies to figure out how to accept amounts of refugees.

I understand that economically strapped countries like Greece and Italy are getting the biggest burden due to geography and that their dire economic situtation renders things difficult. As for richer countries, they should do more their part.
 
It's not a matter of compassion. If they weren't kids, it wouldn't even be news and you wouldn't care or know about it. It's sad and unfortunate, but that aspect is slightly off topic.

I think Canada and our future PM need to be extremely cautious and selective of who is allowed into our country. No one is entitled to immigrate, at all. We need to take care of our own people first before anything else. There are numerous groups of people that need assistance: veterans, Natives, disabled, elderly, mentally ill, homeless, etc. There will continue to be conflict worldwide and suffering, so you are kidding yourself if you think we can house all of the people in need. On top of that, there is fuck all for jobs for our own population... don't need more employment competition, thanks.

In the case of the dead child's family specifically, it was a privately-sponsored immigration case. That means all your worries about them being a drain on our resources are entirely irrelevant; their already-here family would've agreed to take responsibility for them.

Also, isn't the whole point of having a refugee system compassion? We accept refugees from war zones specifically because we recognize that we need to help out of the kindness of our hearts. If that's not compassion, what is it? Or are you just fundamentally opposed to accepting refugees ever?

Yep. His public speaking skills are at "awkward guy running for class president" level. It makes him sound way dumber than he really is.

Trudeau + Obama's public speaking skills probably = 40%+ in the polls.

This is like how some people here are incredulous that I could dislike Mulcair more than anyone else. I love Trudeau's speaking and style. I don't think he's quite on Obama's level, but I wouldn't put him that far behind, either. I see that it's divisive -- a recent poll that asked respondents about his closing remarks at the debate found that an even split between people who loved it and people who hated it -- but I just don't get it.
 

Willectro

Banned
But Willectro you're not in favour of policies that take care of Natives, disabled, elderly, mentally ill, homeless, etc either!

Plus immigration is one of the major factors keeping the economies of Western nations with declining population afloat. A workforce, and people to buy things, are kinda necessary things especially in the face of an aging population.

Either way, the immediate need of Canadian citizens should always be the top priority and everything else is secondary. I dislike Harper, but I hate when people act like Canada must accept immigrants because of a new crisis somewhere in the world. This isn't a revolving door, specifically when costly social services are involved. I'm sorry but this is a country, not a charity.

Many great countries that are desirable to live in are tough to immigrate to (regardless of who you are) and/or have a high cost of living. Why should Canada be an exception?

While I don't think we should turn our back on any marginalized group - bringing in more low skilled workers is not an answer to our economic issues, especially as our economy transfers away from labour-based and more towards specialized financial services. While aliens with exceptional abilities and other skilled immigrants do help keep the economic machine progressing, low skilled immigrants and non-immigrants have a much smaller place in the future of our economy (given the current course). Add to that the fact that second generation immigrants actually have birth rates similar to other non-immigrant Canadians and we see that the declining population is the result of something that will require more intervention than just replacement from outside sources.

Agreed - I'm sure there will be lots of "but, but he is a doctor in his home country".
 
So there is no way Joe Oliver gets reelected right? Recession plus he pretty much dipped the scene and went MIA. He runs close to dt Toronto too, don't really know how he got elected in the first place.
 

Cake Boss

Banned
Jesus fuck what idiocracy going on here.

Yeah that little boy was gonna suck this country dry to the point of defaulting and sending the country to a recession...oh wait. I am sure were in a recession and an economic shithole because of the immigrants we keep letting in.

Yeah let's generilize every single one trying to get into the country. They are all low skilled idiots with no education. By that assumption and generalization my dad would have never got into this country 20 years ago and never started a business that now employs 60 Canadians. Yeah those social security welfare money sucking immigrants are such dicks to our economy.

Let's not accept anyone in until we got 0% unemployment rate, a surplus of 10 trillion dollars, and an island where we can build houses for them so they can all live together and leave us white folks alone. Oh and let's not forget about the Natives, suddenly we all care for them even though we destroyed their whole civilisation and culture, but we love them now.

This is Trump ass arguments getting in here.
 

Azih

Member
Many great countries that are desirable to live in are tough to immigrate to (regardless of who you are) and/or have a high cost of living. Why should Canada be an exception?
Canada is very hard to emigrate to. And we are an incredibly rich nation.

Are you saying rich countries shouldn't do more to alleviate this suffering?
 
news about the boy's father. Harper just offered him Canadian Citizenship, the father said ''NO, too late, I lost my entire family''

Too little, too late

the father has a sister who has been living in BC for over 20 years, this situation for his family could have been smooth over way sooner before the tragic event
 

Silexx

Member
Jesus fuck what idiocracy going on here.

Yeah that little boy was gonna suck this country dry to the point of defaulting and sending the country to a recession...oh wait. I am sure were in a recession and an economic shithole because of the immigrants we keep letting in.

Yeah let's generilize every single one trying to get into the country. They are all low skilled idiots with no education. By that assumption and generalization my dad would have never got into this country 20 years ago and never started a business that now employs 60 Canadians. Yeah those social security welfare money sucking immigrants are such dicks to our economy.

Let's not accept anyone in until we got 0% unemployment rate, a surplus of 10 trillion dollars, and an island where we can build houses for them so they can all live together and leave us white folks alone. Oh and let's not forget about the Natives, suddenly we all care for them even though we destroyed their whole civilisation and culture, but we love them now.

This is Trump ass arguments getting in here.

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