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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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Because it happened. Those sentiments didn't just disappear. The current resurrection of the niqab debate is also fueling the flames and bringing us closer to that day. I believe that there is something about French culture and nationalism that leads them to these laws. Quebec is the only place on the continent with a law like bill 94. The Quebec charter was the natural evolution of that. I know that the charter is dead now, just like the separatist issue, but I expect both to come back somewhere down the line.

As long the Quebec Liberals hold a majority, that won't ever happen.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Quoting myself, because here is another one, in MTL again.

CPhsSqCWcAA-jZR.jpg
*sigh*
As long the Quebec Liberals hold a majority, that won't ever happen.
Quebec Liberals introduced and passed bill 94.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Canada slowly returning back to the Natural Governing Party of good Prime Ministers
e_e
"Natural Governing"

Do you listen to yourself? Might as well write "God-Given Right to Rule" while we're at it. There's partisanship, and then there's partisanship bordering on creepy cultism.

Canada is a free and multicultural society. If you don't like the way someone else's food smells or how they dress or whatever, that's your problem. In a free and multicultural society, these things are allowed. You may not have a problem with a woman wearing a hijab but plenty of people do and I expect that to be banned in Quebec like it is in France somewhere down the line.
Preposterous fear-mongering, not remotely based in reality. The hijab will not be banned. WTF?

I'm also pretty sure that France banned the niqab (full face veil) and not the hijab, the difference with the Québec law is that it's all public spaces (which I think is silly and a bit extreme, but w/e, France does what it will) instead of government function. Wikipedia agrees, anyway. So your France example of slippery slopes isn't even based on reality. Also pretty amusing to see so many prominent Muslim scholars express support for the French ban under the Responses section:

Hassen Chalghoumi, a notable imam of the mosque in Drancy near Paris who had earlier received death threats and seen his religious service interrupted by Islamists because he supported dialog with the French Jewish community, later expressed support for the ban. He stated that the full facial covering "has no place in France, a country where women have been voting since 1945" and that "the burqa is a prison for women, a tool of sexist domination and Islamist indoctrination".[25]

Guess this moderate Muslim (along with all those other scholars cited) is an anti-Muslim bigot -- oh wait.

Our free and multicultural society has never meant "anything goes", anyway.

The law is absolutely rooted in racism and bigotry.
Nope, see above.

Plus if that were true, it'd seek to ban hijabs or other Islamic articles of faith as well and it doesn't.

So, they removed basic rights from women, marginalised and oppressed them, not unlike the Taliban,
Holy fucking shit. Yeah, Québec is just like the Taliban now.

Screw this. Not worth debating with someone so insultingly out of touch with reality.

If you can't tell the difference between an adult wearing a piece of clothing and a minor being involved in a romantic and sexual contract with an adult you've really lost the plot. Slippery slopes are not valid arguments.
Perhaps the child bride argument was a bad analogy, but what about polygamy? No victims here. Are you OK with allowing polygamy under religious freedom? You are correct about slippery slopes argument being fallacious, of course - you should tell that to Walpurgis. ;)

But they're allowed to wear it 99.9% of the time. They just have to show their face in a handful of situations, and I assume they could do it in front of a woman if they ask.
Exactly. They are not being oppressed.

Personally, I don't really care one way or the other as long as there isn't a question of security or identification involved. I just can't believe it became a serious electoral issue.
Agreed, it's ridiculous.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Because it happened. Those sentiments didn't just disappear. The current resurrection of the niqab debate is also fueling the flames and bringing us closer to that day. I believe that there is something about French culture and nationalism that leads them to these laws. Quebec is the only place on the continent with a law like bill 94. The Quebec charter was the natural evolution of that. I know that the charter is dead now, just like the separatist issue, but I expect both to come back somewhere down the line.

Hey, what's wrong with letting a bunch of racist bigots go? Canada will finally be your promised land of love and tolerance, free of the sub-human garbage that we are! :D
 

Silexx

Member
e_e
"Natural Governing"

Do you listen to yourself? Might as well write "God-Given Right to Rule" while we're at it. There's partisanship, and then there's partisanship bordering on creepy cultism.

gutter_trash's hyper-partisanship aside, the Liberals have been nicknamed 'Canada's Natural Governing Party' due to their tendency to form government for long stretches. This is a thing.

Preposterous fear-mongering, not remotely based in reality. The hijab will not be banned. WTF?

I'm also pretty sure that France banned the niqab (full face veil) and not the hijab, the difference with the Québec law is that it's all public spaces (which I think is silly and a bit extreme, but w/e, France does what it will) instead of government function. Wikipedia agrees, anyway. So your France example of slippery slopes isn't even based on reality. Also pretty amusing to see so many prominent Muslim scholars express support for the French ban under the Responses section:

Canada follows a different jurisprudence than that of France. Niqab bans have been found to go against the values of our Charter. Thus any law made on the matter would have to use the notwithstanding clause, which both Harper and Duceppe have said they are in favour of doing. Which is kind of a dick move at this point.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Preposterous fear-mongering, not remotely based in reality. The hijab will not be banned. WTF?

I'm also pretty sure that France banned the niqab (full face veil) and not the hijab, the difference with the Québec law is that it's all public spaces (which I think is silly and a bit extreme, but w/e, France does what it will) instead of government function. Wikipedia agrees, anyway. So your France example of slippery slopes isn't even based on reality. Also pretty amusing to see so many prominent Muslim scholars express support for the French ban under the Responses section:



Guess this moderate Muslim (along with all those other scholars cited) is an anti-Muslim bigot -- oh wait.

Our free and multicultural society has never meant "anything goes", anyway.


Nope, see above.

Plus if that were true, it'd seek to ban hijabs or other Islamic articles of faith as well and it doesn't.


Holy fucking shit. Yeah, Québec is just like the Taliban now.

Screw this. Not worth debating with someone so insultingly out of touch with reality.
I already clarified that I expect the hijab would be banned for public workers like in France.

The guy you quoted sounds like an Uncle Tom. I could just as easily find one for BLM to try to discredit that. Either way, his opinion is a lot less important than the affected women.
Hind Ahmas, a protester against the law who had been twice arrested for wearing a niqab said, "My quality of life has seriously deteriorated since the ban. In my head, I have to prepare for war every time I step outside, prepare to come up against people who want to put a bullet in my head. The politicians claimed they were liberating us; what they've done is to exclude us from the social sphere. Before this law, I never asked myself whether I'd be able to make it to a cafe or collect documents from a town hall. One politician in favour of the ban said niqabs were 'walking prisons'. Well, that's exactly where we've been stuck by this law." Kenza Drider, another protester against the law, said she lives in fear of attack. "I'm insulted about three to four times a day. Most say, 'Go home'; some say, 'We'll kill you.' One said: 'We'll do to you what we did to the Jews.'... I feel that I now know what Jewish women went through before the Nazi roundups in France. When they went out in the street they were identified, singled out, they were vilified. Now that's happening to us."
To be clear, I don't believe that the niqab is necessary for Muslim women but I am not the type to impose my views on others.

As for your little snarky outburst, I can't say that I'm surprised. Arguments with you typically end with you retreating to your bunker.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
As for your little snarky outburst, I can't say that I'm surprised. Arguments with you typically end with you retreating to your bunker.

I really don't get why someone would bow out of a discussion with you. You're debating in such good faith!

It's pretty funny seeing this thread following the same downward trajectory as the electoral campaign. Stuck on an insignificant wedge issue. Harper has already won!
 
There's nothing preventing a Strong, Stable Conservative Majority Government from using the notwithstanding clause to shield a law from Charter challenges for five years. The only reason we don't see this more often is that "it's just not done."

Chantel Herbert has a good article that suggests that it the Conservatives could use it on an anti-niqab bill.

I saw Hebert's article this morning and meant to post it but never got a chance to do so, so I'm glad you did. It's kind of frightening that Harper is willing to take a wedge issue *this* far, because -- much like Quebec using the notwithstanding clause to keep discriminatory language laws in place -- it's using a power that really shouldn't be used just to enshrine bigotry and win a few votes in the process.

And if Harper and other anti-niqab people were equally vocal about, say, ultra orthodox Jewish women not being "forced" to wear face coverings, then the equality defense would be a little stronger...but they don't, and it's pretty obvious why.

gutter_trash's hyper-partisanship aside, the Liberals have been nicknamed 'Canada's Natural Governing Party' due to their tendency to form government for long stretches. This is a thing.

They do have that nickname, but any Liberal using it unironically to explain why the Party should win deserves to be banished to the opposition benches for eternity, and I say that as a pretty hardcore Liberal supporter.

Quoting myself, because here is another one, in MTL again.

CPhsSqCWcAA-jZR.jpg

The irony here is that Boulerice is one of the NDP's most vocal anti-niqab voices.

In any case I appreciate Justin Trudeau's strong stand in speaking out against the disgusting and ugly politics playing out over the niqab.

I'm.. okay.. with the screwy position Mulcair finds himself in (as evidenced by the people in this very thread who want the niqab banned for no good reason) as he's said he's accepted the repeated court rulings that state unequivocally that a niqab ban during the Citizenship Ceremony violates the Charter.

If it wasn't for the overriding need to prevent anything like Harper happening again by implementing PR this would do a lot to push me towards the Liberals.

PR, eh? ;)

I find Mulcair's stance highly disappointing. Couching his defense of minority rights in such legalistic, technical terms comes off as really weasel-y.
 
Damn, Quebec sure likes wasting money it doesn't have. Bill 94 is clearly illegal if they've been paying attention.

The response of the NDP is so disappointing. They may call it "soft nationalism" in French, but all I hear in English is chauvinism. This is what I feared with Mulcair: he's just too Quebec-focused. PQ's brand of "social democracy" is completely incompatible with the rest of the country. Not surprising that he has few votes in Ontario and dropping.

I'm happy Trudeau has committed to getting rid of FPTP. Hopefully it won't be AV, I want my votes for the Greens to count lol.

edit: for the record, I love Quebec as a province/culture. I simply disagree with exclusionary nationalism.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Perhaps the child bride argument was a bad analogy, but what about polygamy? No victims here. Are you OK with allowing polygamy under religious freedom? You are correct about slippery slopes argument being fallacious, of course - you should tell that to Walpurgis. ;)

I'll just answer this specifically, since I said I was bailing on this conversation but you called me out specifically. I'm fine with any relationship arrangement between consenting adults where everyone involved is free to leave it at will. If I had my druthers, marriage would not be a government sanctioned relationship but merely a template for binding property and inheritance rights. Frankly, I think much abuse has come from the official sanction of marriage (both by government and religions both popular and unpopular) through disturbing notions of partners being effectively property and unable to deny consent.

Of course, we don't live in that utopia, so I am personally fine with the marriage 'franchise' expanding in pretty much any way that still places emphasis on consent.
 
I really don't get why someone would bow out of a discussion with you. You're debating in such good faith!

It's pretty funny seeing this thread following the same downward trajectory as the electoral campaign. Stuck on an insignificant wedge issue. Harper has already won!

SPOILERS
Justin Trudeau will be our next Prime Minister
 

mo60

Member
I can't believe I'm agreeing with you, but at this point I think a liberal minority is the best I can hope for. *sigh*

I would love it if either the NDP or Liberals won this election, but I have a funny feeling harper will somehow win a fourth mandate, but even if he does he may not be able to govern. Also, in order for the Liberals to win this election they have to not just rely on Ontario and Atlantic Canada to win.
 

mo60

Member
Harper is in all likelihood going to resign after this election.

Yep he will be gone, but how soon depends on the results after the election and what happens after the election. If the CPC wins a minority and is able to govern he will stay on for a bit longer as PM(1 to 2 years max). If the CPC wins a minority, but they are not able to govern he may leave one to 6 months after winning the election. If the CPC loses he will resign on election night.
 
Hey, watch out! Next thing you know, you'll be blowing up mailboxes in Westmount with me.


Are you ready for a Jean Charest led conservative party?
Hehe or develop a liking for Julie Snyder produced television.

Charest is too "progressive" for the current Conservatives. He supported the gun registry, he supports gay rights.

Odds are he would have even supported Veronique Hivon's "dying with dignity" bill if he wasn't out of politics.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
I'm always surprised people can't understand why identity related issues are a big deal here. The whole story of the province is about a culture that tried to protect itself against cultural assimilation. A minority against a majority. It goes against the very same multicultural view of Canada that was created by Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

If you couple this to that fact that for a very long time the Catholic church with the help of the government has kept people in the dark and committed abuses for decades to the point of people flocking away from both the church and the practice itself you end up with an explosive situation that the media here love to ignite frequently.

People are are very welcoming but if you start to complain about rights you should have because of your religion it will rubs people the wrong way. There was a public inquiry called the La Commission Bouchard-Taylor that investigated religious accommodations 8 years ago. Instead of finding a solution to the issue, it ended up amplifying it. Sporadic case of religious accommodations people never knew about started to show up during the inquiry. While the conclusion of the commission was that religious accommodations were a non-issue, because there was in fact very few of them instead acted as a catalyst proving to some that they actually existed and were a problem. The media then proceeded to continuously stir the pot as much as they could with extreme and controversial cases.

It has been going relentlessness for 8 years and counting now and people are starting to get fed up by it. Identity issues are already a hot topic here and this one has placed front and center so many times that people want a definite solution. They are fed up to the point that if you propose a solution to the problem some of them will jump on it without looking back, unfortunately.
 

Remember those anti-Trudeau anti-choice flyers? The people that spread that garbage probably don't think he's too out of line.

People are are very welcoming but if you start to complain about rights you should have because of your religion it will rubs people the wrong way. There was a public inquiry called the La Commission Bouchard-Taylor that investigated religious accommodations 8 years ago. Instead of finding a solution to the issue, it ended up amplifying it. Sporadic case of religious accommodations people never knew about started to show up during the inquiry. While the conclusion of the commission was that religious accommodations were a non-issue, because there was in fact very few of them instead acted as a catalyst proving to some that they actually existed and were a problem. The media then proceeded to continuously stir the pot as much as they could with extreme and controversial cases.

That's certainly one interpretation of Bouchard-Taylor. The other, more correct interpretation would be that the commission found a whole bunch of pure laine nutcases living mostly in rural Quebec who were convinced that jihadists were hiding behind every mailbox, just waiting to take over the province and forcibly convert them all to Islam. That -- not some flimsy nonsense about the Quiet Revolution -- is the context for the debate.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Not sure if this was posted already:

BBC: Is Stephen Harper 'Americanising' Canadian politics?

Reading that article, it's pissing me off that the Cons still have a good chance of getting reelected.

Honestly, if the Cons have the most seats after the election but the Liberals and the NDP have more combined seats, have a chance to form a coalition and refuse to do so, I will be beyond furious at both parties. I want this asshole out of office at almost any cost.
 
I don't see the NDP/Liberals forming a coalition. I'm sensing bad blood between Trudeau/Mulcair

More likely it'll be a governing accord that fast tracks electoral reform and select base pleasing expenditures. It actually kinda works in both their favour in so far as they can just blame compromising on their campaign stances as the other guy's fault.

Then when one or both feel election ready and want to get a more commanding plurality we'll do this whole song and dance over again.
 
I definitely feel like we need to put some political pressure on them to ensure a coalition is formed.

tell Mulcair to drop the Sherbrooke Declaration and drop his insistence of applying Bill 101 to Federal institutions inside Quebec and then we could start talking coalition.

Until then, I say No Way
 

maharg

idspispopd
tell Mulcair to drop the Sherbrooke Declaration and drop his insistence of applying Bill 101 to Federal institutions inside Quebec and then we could start talking coalition.

Until then, I say No Way

I doubt there'll be an actual coalition, but the alternative to working with Mulcair in the event of no majority will be working with Harper. I can't see that happening.

And if Bill 101 and Sherbrooke are what stops it, there'll be hell to pay from the ROC because we just don't fucking care.
 

UberTag

Member
Honestly, if the Cons have the most seats after the election but the Liberals and the NDP have more combined seats, have a chance to form a coalition and refuse to do so, I will be beyond furious at both parties. I want this asshole out of office at almost any cost.
I definitely feel like we need to put some political pressure on them to ensure a coalition is formed.
We'll need to collectively storm Ottawa and protest in order to get that coalition formed. Harper will have cinched in his claws like a cat on a telephone pole.
It's the outcome I expect, too. The ignorant voters are still the ones most mobilized to go vote on Election Day.
We'll need a rally comparable to the ones during the '95 referendum vote to drive our message home.
Hopefully the Jays will be out of the playoffs so folks won't be too distracted and forget to be angry.
 

Pedrito

Member
Not sure if this was posted already:

BBC: Is Stephen Harper 'Americanising' Canadian politics?

Reading that article, it's pissing me off that the Cons still have a good chance of getting reelected.

Honestly, if the Cons have the most seats after the election but the Liberals and the NDP have more combined seats, have a chance to form a coalition and refuse to do so, I will be beyond furious at both parties. I want this asshole out of office at almost any cost.

"We've weathered a recession, and are currently weathering another one, better than any other country of the G-7," said Tyler Van Bliet, a first-year student at the University of Calgary.

I didn't know other G-7 countries were in a recession right now. The more you know!

That G-7 line certainly did wonders for Harper. I bet his blind supporters will still bring it up 15 years from now.

Tyler said:
"I think people forget that we'd be the envy of a lot of the world right now just for the way we've bounced back from these recessions. We've been able to keep jobs afloat, create new jobs, while keeping our taxes down low."

Yeah Tyler, Americans are totally jealous with their 5.5% unemployment rate and 3.7% gdp growth rate.
 

Azih

Member
I really don't understand digging up Mulcair quotes from decades ago. Jack Layton was conservative once upon a time.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Holy crap someone actually did some riding level polling.

Vote Together Releases 31 New Local Polls

Covering the following ridings:
Atlantic
Central Nova
Comberland—Colchester
Fredericton
Saint John—Rothesay

Ontario
Brantford—Brant
Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound
Cambridge
Eglinton—Lawrence
Etobicoke—Lakeshore
Guelph
Kanata--Carleton
Kitchener Centre
London North Centre
Nepean
Niagara Falls
Orléans
Ottawa West—Nepean
Sault Ste. Marie
Waterloo
Willowdale

Prairies
Elmwood—Transcona
Winnipeg South Centre
Saskatoon University
Calgary Centre

British Columbia
Kootenay—Columbia
Nanaimo—Ladysmith
Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge
Port Moody—Coquitlam
Vancouver Granville
North Island—Powell River

Territories
Yukon

I'm excited to see NDP Mira Oreck ahead by 6 points in Vancouver Granville.

For comparision the 308 projections put this riding as 82% likely to go Liberal, so that shows how important per riding polling is.
 
I didn't know other G-7 countries were in a recession right now. The more you know!

That G-7 line certainly did wonders for Harper. I bet his blind supporters will still bring it up 15 years from now.

Yeah Tyler, Americans are totally jealous with their 5.5% unemployment rate and 3.7% gdp growth rate.

Sorry, I just noticed this: a first-year University of Calgary student as a source? Good job, BBC.

I really don't understand digging up Mulcair quotes from decades ago. Jack Layton was conservative once upon a time.

I don't know much about Layton's life beyond what I can find on Wikipedia, but I highly doubt he was a conservative by the time he became a politician (or even by the time he was partway through his schooling). Meanwhile, you have Mulcair on video directly opposing something he's now saying is a great idea for the rest of Canada, and doing so during his political career. If he wants to run on his biography of being experienced and principled -- because that's why he claims he quit the Charest government in a huff, isn't it? "Principles"? -- then he should be held accountable for his biography.

And Tiktaalik, you can come off the ledge a little about BC:


Though the numbers still show a worrying trend for them:

The online survey of a representative provincial sample shows that, if the federal election were held today, 34% of decided voters in the province (-7 since an Insights West poll conducted in August) would support for the NDP candidate in their constituency, followed by the governing Conservative Party with 28% (+6), the Liberal Party with 26% (+2), and the Green Party with 11% (-1).
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Holy crap someone actually did some riding level polling.

Vote Together Releases 31 New Local Polls

Covering the following ridings:


I'm excited to see NDP Mira Oreck ahead by 6 points in Vancouver Granville.

For comparision the 308 projections put this riding as 82% likely to go Liberal, so that shows how important per riding polling is.

308 made it look like NDP was guaranteed to win in my riding. It turns out that I live in a swing riding with NDP and Conservatives neck and neck. If Liberals and Greens vote NDP, the Conservatives won't stand a chance.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
And Tiktaalik, you can come off the ledge a little about BC:

Though the numbers still show a worrying trend for them:

The online survey of a representative provincial sample shows that, if the federal election were held today, 34% of decided voters in the province (-7 since an Insights West poll conducted in August) would support for the NDP candidate in their constituency, followed by the governing Conservative Party with 28% (+6), the Liberal Party with 26% (+2), and the Green Party with 11% (-1).

On political matters I'm a massive pessimist and I've thought that the Conservatives have had a very likely chance of winning a minority Government since day one. As the election goes along I feel it is becoming more likely.

If you look at the by issue polling, a majority of Canadians disappointingly share the opinion of the Conservatives on the refugees issue, the niqab issue and on foreign policy issues.

Canadians say they want change, but are cautiously sticking the safe party of low taxes.
 

Dazzler

Member
Regarding Mira Oreck in Granville riding, I live in that area and all I see in people's gardens and windows are Oreck posters
 
Keep in mind that LeadNow just one poll, and that riding-level polling in this country is notoriously bad. Not saying this set of polls is inherently suspect, but it's worth remembering.

On political matters I'm a massive pessimist and I've thought that the Conservatives have had a very likely chance of winning a minority Government since day one. As the election goes along I feel it is becoming more likely.

If you look at the by issue polling, a majority of Canadians disappointingly share the opinion of the Conservatives on the refugees issue, the niqab issue and on foreign policy issues.

Canadians say they want change, but are cautiously sticking the safe party of low taxes.

Yeah...the Conservatives have a tendency to outperform their poll numbers (or, if you want to look at it from the other angle, the Liberals and NDP tend to underperform). Not only that, Harper has shown he's willing to use whatever Constitutional options are available to him to stay in power. I'll believe Harper is done when he's actually got a moving fan taking his stuff out of 24 Sussex.
 

Ledhead

Member
About as accurate as having someone from Eastern Canada extolling their knowledge about the oil sands or the oil industry in general

Seeing as how a good number of the young population worked the oil sands at one point or another, they might be more knowledgeable than you think haha
 
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