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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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pr0cs

pr0cs

Member
Walpurgis said:
If you do the research, you can be.
Click to expand...
And how many people commenting on the oil sands or industry are doing said research? People are lazy and are more than happy to regurgitate what they hear. Similar to the university student and his G7 comments
 
S

Stet

Banned
pr0cs said:
They do, but that is hardly a replacement for being there or working in that industry.
Because I have the Internet or watch TV I'm an expert in any topic I choose?
Click to expand...

Someone who works in the industry is hardly an objective source. Framing the debate as "Eastern Canada" vs. "Western Canada" is also divisive and serves neither side of the same country.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
lamaroo said:
I just wish the Liberal gains didn't have to come from NDP support.
Click to expand...

in Ontario, Liberals are battling Conservatives mainly.

So a Liberal boost globally meaning Liberals are beating Conservatives in Ontario is presently the most important trend that has most significance at weakening the Conservatives

When Liberals are in 2nd Place = Conservative Minority
When NDP are in 2nd Place and Libs in 3rd Place = Conservative Majority

the last time the Liberals fell low in 2011 in far 3rd Place and NDP got in 2nd, that iswhat created the last Conservative Majority

To avoid Conservatives Majorities, Liberals have to perform better than the NDP
 
pr0cs

pr0cs

Member
Stet said:
Someone who works in the industry is hardly an objective source.
Click to expand...
More objective than someone who has never been there, attended environmental, safety and other courses on the subject... As well as lives near the 'dirty' oilsands.

Stet said:
Framing the debate as "Eastern Canada" vs. "Western Canada" is also divisive and serves neither side of the same country.
Click to expand...
That hasn't stopped asshats spewing their BS about the industries they know nothing about or will ever even see. They like the transfer payments that come as a result of this dirty industry but are willing to throw it under the bus when it's convenient or is struggling.

I can't say I've seen a lot of Western Canadians talking about the manufacturing industry but we do have a lot of Eastern armchair experts discussing the oil industry.

I'm not saying they don't exist, just that they're few and far between. Everyone is happy to regurgitate the same uninformed pieces that suit their agenda.
 
M

mo60

Member
gutter_trash said:
in Ontario, Liberals are battling Conservatives mainly.

So a Liberal boost globally meaning Liberals are beating Conservatives in Ontario is presently the most important trend that has most significance at weakening the Conservatives

When Liberals are in 2nd Place = Conservative Minority
When NDP are in 2nd Place and Libs in 3rd Place = Conservative Majority

the last time the Liberals fell low in 2011 in far 3rd Place and NDP got in 2nd, that iswhat created the last Conservative Majority

To avoid Conservatives Majorities, Liberals have to perform better than the NDP
Click to expand...

You are right to an extent,but even if the NDP ends up in second place again after this election their won't be a conservative majority this time because of a stronger liberal party. The liberal party does not need to be in second place to prevent a conservative majority. They just need to be strong enough to prevent one which did not happen last election.Both the NDP and the Liberals will be the ones preventing the Conservatives from getting a majority this time. Also, the biggest reason the NDP ended up as the official opposition last election was because of Quebec mostly even though they were stronger in some places of the country last election.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
mo60 said:
You are right to an extent,but even if the NDP ends up in second place again after this election their won't be a conservative majority this time because of a stronger liberal party. The liberal party does not need to be in second place to prevent a conservative majority. They just need to be strong enough to prevent one which did not happen last election. Also, the biggest reason the NDP ended up as the official opposition last election was because of Quebec mostly even though they were stronger in some places of the country last election.
Click to expand...

the thing is that Ontario is the biggest Province with the most amount of Seats and the fight in that Province between Liberals vs Conservatives syphoone each other seat counts.

So if Liberals do exceptional well in Ontario (if) it lowers the Conservative seat count by a large number and the best bet of replacing the government.

Yes it is true that Justin has a Quebec problem outside of the Island of Montreal but Mulcair has an Ontario problem where the NDP sits in 3rd and can't gain traction.

IMO, it is best for Ontarians to concentrate their efforts behind the Liberals to truly beat Harper.
 
M

mo60

Member
gutter_trash said:
the thing is that Ontario is the biggest Province with the most amount of Seats and the fight in that Province between Liberals vs Conservatives syphoone each other seat counts.

So if Liberals do exceptional well in Ontario (if) it lowers the Conservative seat count by a large number and the best bet of replacing the government.

Yes it is true that Justin has a Quebec problem outside of the Island of Montreal but Mulcair has an Ontario problem where the NDP sits in 3rd and can't gain traction.

IMO, it is best for Ontarians to concentrate their efforts behind the Liberals to truly beat Harper.
Click to expand...

In Ontario that is true since the NDP are a bit weak in that province, but like I said the Liberals really don't need to be in second place to prevent a Conservative majority. They can just take a bunch of Ontario seats from the Conservatives and end up in a strong second(40+ seats) in Ontario(since that seems likely now) and still end up in third overall and the conservatives won't be able to form a majority government.With the NDP's help the conservatives chances of forming a majority are near zero now.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
gutter_trash said:
the thing is that Ontario is the biggest Province with the most amount of Seats and the fight in that Province between Liberals vs Conservatives syphoone each other seat counts.

So if Liberals do exceptional well in Ontario (if) it lowers the Conservative seat count by a large number and the best bet of replacing the government.

Yes it is true that Justin has a Quebec problem outside of the Island of Montreal but Mulcair has an Ontario problem where the NDP sits in 3rd and can't gain traction.

IMO, it is best for Ontarians to concentrate their efforts behind the Liberals to truly beat Harper.
Click to expand...

Or even better, people look at their individual riding. The situation is very different in different regions. Inside Toronto itself, the NDP have good chances, as well as the north and west of the province. In the suburbs, it's the Liberals.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
Thomas Mulcair's past comes back.

In 2000 as an opposition MNA, he was opposed to the PQ's $5 Daycare program and debated against it using the same lines that the Conservatives say ''let parents decide what to do with their money... ''

I am listenning to Talk Radio in French now, real juicy. Mulcair's past showing his real Thatcher face.

Justin Trudeau is now lol more to the Left of the Mulcair .

As soon as there is an English equivalent on this ''contradiction'' on Mulcair's Daycare position(s) then and now. I will be sure to post it here
 
L

Ledhead

Member
pr0cs said:
More objective than someone who has never been there, attended environmental, safety and other courses on the subject... As well as lives near the 'dirty' oilsands.


That hasn't stopped asshats spewing their BS about the industries they know nothing about or will ever even see. They like the transfer payments that come as a result of this dirty industry but are willing to throw it under the bus when it's convenient or is struggling.

I can't say I've seen a lot of Western Canadians talking about the manufacturing industry but we do have a lot of Eastern armchair experts discussing the oil industry.

I'm not saying they don't exist, just that they're few and far between. Everyone is happy to regurgitate the same uninformed pieces that suit their agenda.
Click to expand...

While this is certainly anecdotal, i'll say it again. A good number of Easterners have worked out West, with many in the oil sands sector. I personally know close to 20 who have made the trek out West, the majority working in engineering firms tied to the oil industry or at the camps themselves.
 
C

Conscience Falls

Member
pr0cs said:
About as accurate as having someone from Eastern Canada extolling their knowledge about the oil sands or the oil industry in general
Click to expand...

I really think you need to google the Irving's.
Not to mention the vast amount of people that move "out west" to work for a few years before returning home.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
gutter_trash said:
Thomas Mulcair's past comes back.

In 2000 as an opposition MNA, he was opposed to the PQ's $5 Daycare program and debated against it using the same lines that the Conservatives say ''let parents decide what to do with their money... ''

I am listenning to Talk Radio in French now, real juicy. Mulcair's past showing his real Thatcher face.

Justin Trudeau is now lol more to the Left of the Mulcair .

As soon as there is an English equivalent on this ''contradiction'' on Mulcair's Daycare position(s) then and now. I will be sure to post it here
Click to expand...

hrm, yes, Mulcair is [still] a Thatcherite as proven by this issue on which, 15 years later, he included a $15 daycare program in his first platform as federal party leader

(much as Justin Trudeau is personally responsible for Chretien and Martin's destroying transfers to claim balanced budgets, or Pearson's work with the NDP in the establishment of basically every major social program in the country)
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
When Mulcair was 15 he didn't give money to a homeless person, showing his true THATCHER beliefs. Can we trust a man who 40 years ago didn't give change to someone?

THATCHER
 
pr0cs

pr0cs

Member
Conscience Falls said:
I really think you need to google the Irving's.
Not to mention the vast amount of people that move "out west" to work for a few years before returning home.
Click to expand...

What would I be looking for in regards to the Irving's admonishing of the oil industry and oil sands in general?
I am well aware that a lot of Easterners work out west in the oil industry. How many of them are now against the oil industry and the benefits it produces? Every single easterner I've worked with (which are now out of work and out east again) were proud of the job and the improvements that industry made on their lives.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
listen to his words carefully, saying that parents should have the choice to do what they want with their own money

he is supporting the idea federally for a program he opposed provincially.

He said ''I believe in the Free Market'' LOL in opposing the Daycare while talking in French

Free Market. That is conservative speak
 
M

maharg

idspispopd
matthewwhatever said:
I don't know much about Layton's life beyond what I can find on Wikipedia, but I highly doubt he was a conservative by the time he became a politician (or even by the time he was partway through his schooling). Meanwhile, you have Mulcair on video directly opposing something he's now saying is a great idea for the rest of Canada, and doing so during his political career. If he wants to run on his biography of being experienced and principled -- because that's why he claims he quit the Charest government in a huff, isn't it? "Principles"? -- then he should be held accountable for his biography.
Click to expand...

I have definitely seen posts by you asserting not only that it's acceptable for leaders to change their mind, but that it is in fact a sign of a prudent leader to do so when circumstances or information change. If we're to hold Mulcair to his statements 15-20 years ago and demand he has a hidden agenda, we should presumably also assume Trudeau has no intention of running deficits given he said so mere months ago?
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
Trudeau of 15 years ago is as Liberal as Trudeau of today, he the son LOL of a Liberal Prime Minister. Not gonna start doubting the Liberalismness of Trudeau now

But I sure do doubt that Left-Center-Right scale of Mulcair when his positions change depend on the color of his tie
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
gutter_trash said:
Trudeau of 15 years ago is as Liberal as Trudeau of today
Click to expand...

So should the Liberals form a minority government, he's gonna govern to the right of the Liberal platform as soon as the 42nd Parliament sits, much like the actual Prime Ministers between 1993 and 2006 (whose remaining old guard his shadow cabinet has inherited)?

And as a socialist, I can somehow trust this guy more than someone whose shadow cabinet is full of decided leftists even if he had centrist views 15 years ago?

Got it.
 
W

Walpurgis

Banned
eBay Huckster said:
So should the Liberals form a minority government, he's gonna govern to the right of the Liberal platform as soon as the 42nd Parliament sits, much like the actual Prime Ministers between 1993 and 2006 (whose remaining old guard his shadow cabinet has inherited)?

And as a socialist, I can somehow trust this guy more than someone whose shadow cabinet is full of decided leftists even if he had centrist views 15 years ago?

Got it.
Click to expand...

But what about the Sherbrooke Declaration and Bill 101 in federal institutions! :p
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
maharg said:
I have definitely seen posts by you asserting not only that it's acceptable for leaders to change their mind, but that it is in fact a sign of a prudent leader to do so when circumstances or information change. If we're to hold Mulcair to his statements 15-20 years ago and demand he has a hidden agenda, we should presumably also assume Trudeau has no intention of running deficits given he said so mere months ago?
Click to expand...

If Trudeau had a history like Mulcair has of changing his message depending on the audience, then sure, it would absolutely be permissible to hold him accountable for a hidden agenda. But changing your position on deficits after the dollar and oil both tank seems a lot more defensible than, say, talking about freedom of religion on Monday in the Maritimes when asked about the niqab, then turning around today in Quebec and saying he's pro-niqab ban.

Not to mention there's something fundamentally deceitful about promising $15/day daycare if elected, then admitting you wouldn't actually get around to implementing it until the end of your second mandate, in eight years.

eBay Huckster said:
So should the Liberals form a minority government, he's gonna govern to the right of the Liberal platform as soon as the 42nd Parliament sits, much like the actual Prime Ministers between 1993 and 2006 (whose remaining old guard his shadow cabinet has inherited)?

And as a socialist, I can somehow trust this guy more than someone whose shadow cabinet is full of decided leftists even if he had centrist views 15 years ago?

Got it.
Click to expand...

Gutter has to be a secret Conservative plant, right? He makes me want to vote for anyone but the Liberals every time he posts.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
gutter_trash said:
Trudeau of 15 years ago is as Liberal as Trudeau of today, he the son LOL of a Liberal Prime Minister. Not gonna start doubting the Liberalismness of Trudeau now

But I sure do doubt that Left-Center-Right scale of Mulcair when his positions change depend on the color of his tie
Click to expand...

Liberals have campaigned left and governed right for what, 4 decades?
 
A

Azih

Member
Seriously matthewwhatever, Mulcair isn't being contradictory at all in his comments. He said show the face at some point to confirm identity. That's not pro niqab ban by any stretch. You do this all the time with Mulcair and it's dishonest intellectually.
 
A

Azih

Member
gutter_trash said:
when the Liberals govern from the Right?
Click to expand...
The entirety of Paul Martin's tenure as Finance Minister where he 'downloaded' massive amounts of spending from the federal level to the provinces and then used the resulting surpluses to slash taxes instead of reinvesting in Canadian social services. The only non incredibly right wing budget the man had was when he was forced to it by Jack Layton.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
Walpurgis said:
But what about the Sherbrooke Declaration and Bill 101 in federal institutions! :p
Click to expand...

What about these things that won't actually get touched short of an absurdly huge 1984-level NDP majority government?

like Jesus Christ, Gutter talks about these things like Mulcair's going to steer a 100-seat minority directly into Let's Run This Shit Into the Ground territory

matthewwhatever said:
Gutter has to be a secret Conservative plant, right? He makes me want to vote for anyone but the Liberals every time he posts.
Click to expand...

I'm not ruling that out at this point.
 
W

Walpurgis

Banned
Mulcair chose his words very carefully to make it sound like he was against the niqab because that's how Quebec likes it. He actually meant that he'll keep things the way they are.
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
Azih said:
Seriously matthewwhatever, Mulcair isn't being contradictory at all in his comments. He said show the face at some point to confirm identity. That's not pro niqab ban by any stretch. You do this all the time with Mulcair and it's dishonest intellectually.
Click to expand...

These are the headlines from Mulcair's comments today:

NDP leader supports requirement that women show faces at citizenship ceremonies

Mulcair says women who wear Niqabs should show faces at citizenship ceremonies

Niqabs should be allowed during citizenship oath, Mulcair says

Mulcair calls for tolerance, calm on niqab controversy

Admittedly, the oath and the ceremony are two different things, so there's some wiggle room there. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm being intellectually dishonest to suggest that he's all over the place on this issue.

EDIT: Though, I guess, at least he's yet not so incoherent that we get graphics like this one:

CPmnmolUsAAws7_.png
Click to expand...


Walpurgis said:
Mulcair chose his words very carefully to make it sound like he was against the niqab because that's how Quebec likes it. He actually meant that he'll keep things the way they are.
Click to expand...

This is a valid point, though as I said yesterday, couching a defense of human rights in highly legalistic terms just seems wrong to me.
 
C

CitizenVectron

Member
matthewwhatever said:
These are the headlines from Mulcair's comments today:

NDP leader supports requirement that women show faces at citizenship ceremonies

Mulcair says women who wear Niqabs should show faces at citizenship ceremonies

Niqabs should be allowed during citizenship oath, Mulcair says

Mulcair calls for tolerance, calm on niqab controversy

Admittedly, the oath and the ceremony are two different things, so there's some wiggle room there. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm being intellectually dishonest to suggest that he's all over the place on this issue.

EDIT: Though, I guess, at least he's yet not so incoherent that we get graphics like this one:
Click to expand...

From what I understand, he is in favour of making all people show their faces at the oath to identify themselves (which makes sense), but then to allow them to cover them during the actual oath/ceremony. Basically you need to ID them first, and you need to see their face for that.

I see no problem with this position, as it's already required.
 
S

Stet

Banned
pr0cs said:
More objective than someone who has never been there, attended environmental, safety and other courses on the subject... As well as lives near the 'dirty' oilsands.


That hasn't stopped asshats spewing their BS about the industries they know nothing about or will ever even see. They like the transfer payments that come as a result of this dirty industry but are willing to throw it under the bus when it's convenient or is struggling.

I can't say I've seen a lot of Western Canadians talking about the manufacturing industry but we do have a lot of Eastern armchair experts discussing the oil industry.

I'm not saying they don't exist, just that they're few and far between. Everyone is happy to regurgitate the same uninformed pieces that suit their agenda.
Click to expand...

By that logic, the only person who should represent the oilsands as the Minister of Energy should be someone with direct first-hand experience working in the oil fields.

You have to realize how absurd that sounds.
 
A

Azih

Member
matthewwhatever said:
These are the headlines from Mulcair's comments today:
Click to expand...
Yeah they're headlines. You're exhibiting the same behaviour that the Cons did when they made the misleading "budget will balance itself" ad. Mulcari is consistent on this. Show the face to confirm identity and that's it. Not force it during the ceremony itself. So what if some headlines focus on the first and some focus on the second? It's the right position to take and I'm glad Mulcair is taking it.
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
Azih said:
Yeah they're headlines. You're exhibiting the same behaviour that the Cons did when they made the misleading "budget will balance itself" ad. Mulcari is consistent on this. Show the face to confirm identity and that's it. Not force it during the ceremony itself. So what if some headlines focus on the first and some focus on the second? It's the right position to take and I'm glad Mulcair is taking it.
Click to expand...

Harper, when asked about same sex marriage in 2012: "The law recognizes same-sex marriage in Canada and the government is not going to reopen that issue."

Mulcair on the niqab: "I am in agreement with the existing rule under which anyone seeking citizenship must uncover their face to identify themselves before swearing the oath, in accordance with their religious beliefs."

You can just feel Mulcair's defence of minority rights radiating off the screen.
 
S

Silexx

Member
Interesting thought from Andrew Coyne: he says that if the Conservatives were to 'win' the election but with only a slight margin, the Liberals or the NDP could agree to prop up a Tory government but only under the condition that Harper steps down.
 
A

Azih

Member
matthewwhatever said:
Harper, when asked about same sex marriage in 2012: "The law recognizes same-sex marriage in Canada and the government is not going to reopen that issue."

Mulcair on the niqab: "I am in agreement with the existing rule under which anyone seeking citizenship must uncover their face to identify themselves before swearing the oath, in accordance with their religious beliefs."

You can just feel Mulcair's defence of minority rights radiating off the screen.
Click to expand...

Yeah he also said:

"Attacks, insinuations, campaigns of fear, complete scorn for our institutions. They are the stock and trade of this government... It seems to me that Canada and Quebec
deserve better than wedge politics, the politics of division."

and

"If some of those women are oppressed, we need to help them, and it's not going to be depriving them of their Canadian citizenship and rights that will do that."

and

"And on that, let me be clear: no one has the right to tell a woman what she must — or must not — wear,"

Seriously matthew your visceral dislike for the man (and let me repeat, the fact that you dislike him more than Harper is certifiably bonkers) is blinding you to what he actually says.
 
T

Tiktaalik

Member
Silexx said:
Interesting thought from Andrew Coyne: he says that if the Conservatives were to 'win' the election but with only a slight margin, the Liberals or the NDP could agree to prop up a Tory government but only under the condition that Harper steps down.
Click to expand...

I also couldn't help but notice that neither party ruled out cooperation with a Conservative government, just a "Harper government."
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
Azih said:
Seriously matthew your visceral dislike for the man (and let me repeat, the fact that you dislike him more than Harper is certifiably bonkers) is blinding you to what he actually says.
Click to expand...

Granted, I do dislike him quite a bit. And if I were the only person who noticed how he contradicts himself depending on where and when he's speaking, then I would accept that it all comes down to that. But when other people notice it too -- from all sides of the political spectrum, including NDPers I know and trust -- then I have to conclude that it's not just me seeing and hearing it.

Tiktaalik said:
I also couldn't help but notice that neither party ruled out cooperation with a Conservative government, just a "Harper government."
Click to expand...

That's an interesting out they've both provided themselves with, but at the same time I don't think there's anyone the Conservatives could replace Harper with who would be a palatable alternative as PM.

Which means only one thing: May as PM, leading a coalition of the Conservatives and one of the other opposition parties.
 
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