• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Stephen Harper has nothing on Quebec politicians like PQ and CAQ. Unlike them, he deals in dog whistles and veiled racism because that's as far as he's allowed to go. PQ and CAQ take it all the way - they don't even try to hide it because they don't have to. Both are bad but there's no sense in trying to equate them.

Why are you calling me racist? I don't understand. I don't even know what race Quebec is supposed to be. Pure laine maybe?

Assuming that human "race" is not biological and is a social construct, yes, I have no problem calling you a racist for hating on a cultural group for no valid reason.

I won't even address your first paragraph because it's, as always, total nonsense. You read like someone who never even went to Quebec and can't speak a word of french, yet has a definite and rigid opinion based on assumptions and hearsays. Hey, go ahead, I'd love to hear your in-depth opinion on mexicans, chineses, south africans, koreans, etc. I'm sure you're an expert of all these cultures too.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Some people maybe but certainly not for others. For a lot the niqab is bad because it symbolizes Muslims. You have seen the kind of ugly shit that gets said to hijabis right? There's video of women being harassed over it especially when Marous was at the height of her hateful ways.
Well, sure. Those people just harass those women because they are Muslims, and would probably harass them even if they wore a simple hijab or any other visible sign of their religion. I'm talking about people who mention that they oppose it on political grounds. I see no reason to not take their reason at face value. If the same politician who decry the niqab also opposes the hijab, or the existence of mosques, or endorses profiling, then it's a different story, but I haven't seen that happen, or not more so in Québec than in other places anyway.

Plus it amazes me that the existence of the CAQ and the PQ's Charter (an unpopular, unsuccessful party and an unpopular, unsuccessful policy that pretty much made the party lose the election) is somehow considered (not by you, of course, just saying) valid proof that Québec is bigoted, but a xenophobic PM who's been in power for almost a decade is handwaved. Amazing, really.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Assuming that human "race" is not biological and is a social construct, yes, I have no problem calling you a racist for hating on a cultural group for no valid reason.

I won't even address your first paragraph because it's, as always, total nonsense. You read like someone who never even went to Quebec and can't speak a word of french, yet has a definite and rigid opinion based on assumptions and hearsays. Hey, go ahead, I'd love to hear your in-depth opinion on mexicans, chineses, south africans, koreans, etc. I'm sure you're an expert of all these cultures too.

I have to know French to talk about Quebec? Sorry, but Bill 101 only applies in Quebec.
Plus it amazes me that the existence of the CAQ and the PQ's Charter (an unpopular, unsuccessful party and an unpopular, unsuccessful policy that pretty much made the party lose the election) is somehow considered (not by you, of course, just saying) valid proof that Québec is bigoted, but a xenophobic PM who's been in power for almost a decade is handwaved. Amazing, really.
I guess you haven't heard of bill 94 (the one that passed). In Quebec, it is legally required that women must remove their niqab when dealing with the government, whether a woman is accessing services or working for them. Stop pretending like the issue doesn't exist.

And PQ did not lose because of the charter. According to Wikipedia, it's rising popularity was the reason they called an early election.
 
One Nanos poll had them within 0.8% of each other, all around 30%. But Nanos kind of sucks.

What? Nanos has an argument for being one of the best pollsters in Canada, especially when it comes to federal polling. You can wonder what that says about the state of Canadian pollsters, but in our context, they're pretty good.

In any case, I think the closest I've seen to 30-30-30 was a Nanos one a few days ago that had them 30.9-30.5-29.9.

The forum poll shows the Conservatives at 33% support
http://www.hilltimes.com/news/polit...pport-following-globe-debate-on-economy/43487

Their seat count prediction for their conservatives is really high(around 145 seats).

Forum had the NDP up at 40 and 36 a few weeks ago, so that's a significant drop for them.

Also, if the Conservatives get 33, 145 seats seems a little high. Their Alberta numbers usually inflate their overall percentage of the vote, so I'd think at 33 they'd be more in the 115-125 range.

Don't do this. Zunera Ishaq, the woman who is giving Harper a spanking on this, doesn't think so and the only people whose opinion really matters on this are the people wearing the damn things.

To speak for them when they can speak for themselves (As Ishaq is doing) is either concern trolling or patronizing.

Yep. It's funny how people talking about how anti-feminist the niqab is generally are the same ones who otherwise don't care about women's rights.

Environics did some riding polls of Edmonton and Lethbridge for the Alberta Federation of Labour (note: The AFL president is running in Edmonton Centre for the NDP): https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...al_Ridings_Report_-_Sept_21-15.pdf?1442866702

Does that match up with what you've been seeing? Judging from the crowds the Liberals and NDP have been getting, plus the provincial election, I'd have assumed that the Conservatives would've been trailing somewhere.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Seems like a pretty lame thing to complain about. It would make sense if the political parties would spend money on this than campaigning

They've been in Ottawa since 2006. Why are they starting this now? Is there something special happening this year?
 

Sakura

Member
Also, if the Conservatives get 33, 145 seats seems a little high. Their Alberta numbers usually inflate their overall percentage of the vote, so I'd think at 33 they'd be more in the 115-125 range.

Depends really. You can say Alberta inflates their numbers sure, but then at the same time Quebec deflates their numbers.
Either way, it's really hard to tell from polls right now because there are so many undecided voters. How many of the people saying NDP will actually go out and vote vs how many people saying CPC will go out and vote?
 

Kifimbo

Member
CPdfLfqWsAAMV75.jpg


In Montreal. Trudeau riding.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
The thing that makes these polls really bad is that the national horse race poll is not really that indicative of much, but when you look at some of the provincial polling, which is much more relevant, the margins of error are massive (eg. 5-8% in Nanos' recent provincial polls).
 

Silexx

Member
Seems like a pretty lame thing to complain about. It would make sense if the political parties would spend money on this than campaigning

What he didn't mention is the Tories only promised to match the donations if re-elected. Terry Fox's family is not amused.
 

mo60

Member
The thing that makes these polls really bad is that the national horse race poll is not really that indicative of much, but when you look at some of the provincial polling, which is much more relevant, the margins of error are massive (eg. 5-8% in Nanos' recent provincial polls).

That is why I'm going to stop trusting these polls until closer to election day because at this point a different party has a chance to be in the lead in different polls like every day.Just today one poll showed the liberals in the lead and I think the other two polls showed the CPC in the lead. The weird regional numbers at times in some polls also makes it hard to trust these election polls.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I have to know French to talk about Quebec? Sorry, but Bill 101 only applies in Quebec.
I guess you haven't heard of bill 94 (the one that passed). In Quebec, it is legally required that women must remove their niqab when dealing with the government, whether a woman is accessing services or working for them. Stop pretending like the issue doesn't exist.
I don't actually have a problem with bill 94 and I fail to see the "issue". Guess this makes me a typical Québec bigot for wanting government employees to show their faces. *rolls eyes*

And PQ did not lose because of the charter. According to Wikipedia, it's rising popularity was the reason they called an early election.
Which they lost...

Wow.

Did the NDP do this or did some random person walk by and do this?
....Seriously? You think the NDP defaced their own signs?
 
Do you search Twitter to find out if water is wet?

Hey, if someone needs to search Twitter for that, why begrudge them?

Forum had the NDP up at 40 and 36 a few weeks ago, so that's a significant drop for them.

It's best to stop paying attention to Forum until the last week of the campaign, because their polls are having the same issue as in 2011 (in that they're having really wild and dramatic swings across the board, and that includes their weird "NDP at 40%"-like outliers)
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
What he didn't mention is the Tories only promised to match the donations if re-elected. Terry Fox's family is not amused.

Are you serious?

That's pretty low even for the Conservatives, turning a charity into an election promise.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
NDP message on niqab ban remains muddled as Tom Mulcair looks to shore up support in Quebec

Careful not to disrupt its bedrock support in Quebec, the NDP appears to be struggling to find a clear, consistent message on the question of whether or not women should be allowed to cover their faces while swearing the oath of citizenship.

While the Conservatives and Liberals have staked out firm positions on wearing niqabs during the ceremonies — the Tories are opposed, the Liberals support it — the NDP, some observers say, has waffled on the issue.

“(The NDP) are wrestling with this issue. It’s a political problem for them,” said Emmett Macfarlane, a political science professor at the University of Waterloo.

Last week, Quebec NDP candidate Jean-Francois Delisle said he personally opposed women being allowed to wear niqabs during citizenship ceremonies and went further to suggest reopening the Constitution to revisit freedom of religion. He later said in a statement that his remarks were “ill-considered and contradictory” and did not reflect the priorities of the party.

Asked Monday by a reporter for his personal views on the issue, NDP Leader Tom Mulcair seemed to sidestep the question, saying the courts had spoken on the matter.

“The courts take care of that. Your freedom of expression, your freedom of the press, would you want politicians deciding that? It’s what the courts are there to do,” he said. “They’re there to defend your rights, including freedom of religion. So the courts have spoken in this case.”


Mulcair has tended to state different positions on issues depending on what part of the country he is in, said Cameron Ahmad, press secretary for the Liberal Party.

“Our position is that when you’re running to be prime minister, a national campaign, your position has to be consistent across the country,” he said. “We’ve held a consistent position from day one (on the niqab issue).”

The NDP insists that Mulcair has been consistent in his position.

The topic is a delicate one for the party. The base of the NDP’s power rests largely in Quebec, where popular sentiment leans heavily in favour of the niqab ban.

A Forum Research public opinion poll earlier this year found that opposition to face-coverings was highest in Quebec — 87 per cent say they wanted it out of citizenship ceremonies. Nationally, 67 per cent of respondents are opposed.

A lot of the disdain for the cultural practice stems from a “soft nationalism” among some NDP supporters in Quebec, Macfarlane said.

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has been far more blunt in his stance, perhaps at the expense of some votes in Quebec, Macfarlane said. But it would still be nice for the NDP to be clearer on this issue, especially in the wake of a “xenophobic” ad put out recently by the Bloc Québécois, he said.

The controversial ad suggested that a vote for the NDP was a vote in favour of pipelines and niqabs and depicted a glob of oil morphing into the image of a niqab.

The issue erupted on a national scale earlier this year following a Federal Court ruling that found the niqab ban was unlawful because it violated federal regulations requiring citizenship judges to allow would-be citizens the “greatest possible freedom in the religious solemnization or the solemn affirmation of the oath.” Last week, the Federal Court of Appeal upheld that decision.

The Conservatives, repeating their position that it is “offensive” that newcomers would hide their faces at the moment they are joining the “Canadian family,” said they intended to seek a stay of that decision so they could take the case to the Supreme Court of Canada.

They have also said they would re-introduce legislation, if re-elected, entrenching the niqab policy into law.

Macfarlane said he’s doubtful such a law would pass constitutional muster, as the Conservatives’ are pushing the issue purely for symbolic reasons.

It is legitimate for people to express personal views about the cultural practice of wearing veils — a lot of people believe it is an oppressive device — but that doesn’t mean the government can step in and interfere with minorities’ rights without justification, Macfarlane said.

“It’d be nice for NDP to be more emphatic about that principle,” he said.

Questions about whether the NDP was unified on the niqab issue came up earlier this year after Quebec MP Alexandre Boulerice remarked that he was “totally uncomfortable” if a woman wore a niqab while working as a federal bureaucrat.

“It is not a practice that we like, the niqab, nor one we agree with,” he said at the time.

Mulcair told the Vancouver Sun at the time that Boulerice said in the same interview religious freedom must be respected. The NDP leader added that the party’s respect for the Charter is unanimous.

I can see it now, some sort of awkward stumble during the French language debate from Mulcair on the niqab issue, resulting in a late Bloc surge, NDP Quebec wipeout and another Strong Stable Conservative Majority Government....
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I can see it now, some sort of awkward stumble during the French language debate from Mulcair on the niqab issue, resulting in a late Bloc surge, NDP Quebec wipeout and another Strong Stable Conservative Majority Government....

Stuff like this makes politics feel gross to me.
 

mo60

Member
I can see it now, some sort of awkward stumble during the French language debate from Mulcair on the niqab issue, resulting in a late Bloc surge, NDP Quebec wipeout and another Strong Stable Conservative Majority Government....

Inb4 the rest of Canada prevents that from happening. Mulcair is probably being prepped on how to deal with that issue in that debate.

Also,this happened to the conservative campaign bus earlier today
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rts-spewing-smoke-en-route-to-toronto-airport
 

Tiktaalik

Member
I think if any party is going to move away from the ~30/30/30 pack, it's going to be in Quebec. Basically no one watched this recent debate as it was not broadcast widely and I don't think we're going to see any movement due to it. The upcoming Munk debate is also not going to be broadcast widely either. With a lack of future major events in English Canada, it's hard to see why English Canadians would change their minds from where they are now.

In contrast the upcoming Quebec debate will be broadcast on CBC widely in Quebec. As well there is the popular Tout le Monde en Parle show in which Trudeau and Mulcair will be appearing. Plenty of opportunities for making a good impression on the public or making a major gaffe.
 

mo60

Member
I think if any party is going to move away from the ~30/30/30 pack, it's going to be in Quebec. Basically no one watched this recent debate as it was not broadcast widely and I don't think we're going to see any movement due to it. The upcoming Munk debate is also not going to be broadcast widely either. With a lack of future major events in English Canada, it's hard to see why English Canadians would change their minds from where they are now.

In contrast the upcoming Quebec debate will be broadcast on CBC widely in Quebec. As well there is the popular Tout le Monde en Parle show in which Trudeau and Mulcair will be appearing. Plenty of opportunities for making a good impression on the public or making a major gaffe.

Quebec could become a battleground for the Liberals and NDP(but it's very unlikely).It's also very unlikely that the conservatives will even get many seats in Quebec even after the french debate. The only party that can really spoil the election in the province of Quebec is the Bloc, but they are dead and I don't think they will make any recovery at all by election. Does the NDP have any more room to move in Quebec because it looks like their seat count will most likely max out anywhere between 55-62 seats in that province on election night. Do the Liberals have a shot to gain more seats than the polls suggest currently in Quebec also?
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Quebec could become a battleground for the Liberals and NDP(but it's very unlikely).It's also very unlikely that the conservatives will even get many seats in Quebec even after the french debate. The only party that can really spoil the election in the province of Quebec is the Bloc, but they are dead and I don't think they will make any recovery at all by election. Does the NDP have any more room to move in Quebec because it looks like their seat count will most likely max out anywhere between 55-62 seats in that province on election night. Do the Liberals have a shot to gain more seats than the polls suggest currently in Quebec also?

I have absolutely no idea. I only bring up Quebec as a likely area of movement simply due to the fact that there are so many more upcoming events there.

I'd love some Quebecers to chime in with any thoughts about ridings they think could possibly switch hands.

I spotted this article that suggested that Mégantic-L’Érable could be in play since the current Conservative MP Christian Paradis is retiring and he was personally more popular than the party he represents.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I have absolutely no idea. I only bring up Quebec as a likely area of movement simply due to the fact that there are so many more upcoming events there.

I'd love some Quebecers to chime in with any thoughts about ridings they think could possibly switch hands.

I spotted this article that suggested that Mégantic-L’Érable could be in play since the current Conservative MP Christian Paradis is retiring and he was personally more popular than the party he represents.

A good friend of mine lives in Lac-Mégantic, and he says Paradis was not popular anymore, after how he handled the disaster. People over there were really upset with some of his decisions over that. He might have even said that Paradis was not seeking re-election because of the backlash, but I'm not sure.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
I don't actually have a problem with bill 94 and I fail to see the "issue". Guess this makes me a typical Québec bigot for wanting government employees to show their faces. *rolls eyes*

I don't know why you're rolling your eyes.
In Quebec, it is legally required that women must remove their niqab when dealing with the government, whether a woman is accessing services or working for them.
Now, you've made it clear that since that doesn't affect you, you don't care. That at least makes you selfish.

As for the women in question, well, it turns out, there aren't that many of them - certainly not enough to make an entire law for.
CBC said:
There are only a handful of women in Quebec who cover their faces in the name of their faith. Of nearly 150,000 provincial health insurance card photos taken last year, just 10 involved requests for accommodation from women in niqabs.
It's clear that there are other motivations at play here. The fact that you fail to see the issue is a perfect example of the problem in Quebec.
 

Annubis

Member
Well, Quebec has had a lot of issues with its many religions in the last decade.
Those "accommodement raisonnable" were made to stop that madness that was going on.
You can read all about it here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controverse_québécoise_sur_les_accommodements_raisonnables
Do note that while some of the most vocal cases were due to Islam, it wasn't the only religion that tried to pull off some shit. For example, there was a neighbourhood that sold itself on only selling to white 'pure laine' Christians.

One missing case in that article that woke up the debate again lately was this one from last year : http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/infos/faitsdivers/archives/2014/01/20140130-101033.html where a woman died because of her niqab.
A rough translation for the non-French would be that her niqab got caught in a mechanical escalator and she ended up strangled.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
Well, Quebec has had a lot of issues with its many religions in the last decade.
Those "accommodement raisonnable" were made to stop that madness that was going on.
You can read all about it here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controverse_québécoise_sur_les_accommodements_raisonnables
Do note that while some of the most vocal cases were due to Islam, it wasn't the only religion that tried to pull off some shit. For example, there was a neighbourhood that sold itself on only selling to white 'pure laine' Christians.

One missing case in that article that woke up the debate again lately was this one from last year : http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/infos/faitsdivers/archives/2014/01/20140130-101033.html where a woman died because of her niqab.
A rough translation for the non-French would be that her niqab got caught in a mechanical escalator and she ended up strangled.
Is there an English version of that Wikipedia article?
 

SRG01

Member
How is the KPMG nonsense not an election issue?

Because the people who are disgusted by it (and other CPC antics) are already voting for other parties, while the CPC's core supporters have already shown their willingness to overlook absolutely anything.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Does that match up with what you've been seeing? Judging from the crowds the Liberals and NDP have been getting, plus the provincial election, I'd have assumed that the Conservatives would've been trailing somewhere.

I live in kind of a bubble, so it's honestly pretty hard to say. I still feel like I'll be shocked if EC stays CPC, and the previous expectations were that it wasn't even the best shot in Edmonton (aside from obviously Edmonton-Strathcona which is honestly probably one of the NDP's safest seats, especially during the school year). If it's accurate it could point to the NDP vote being spread out across the province more than people expected (maybe because of the provincial win), which would be very bad for the NDP in Alberta, ironically.

But I also think the campaign hasn't even really started here, to be honest. No lawn signs at all or anything. Possibly people are just still parking.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I don't know why you're rolling your eyes.
Because it's stupid and fallacious to think that being uncomfortable with being served by a masked person = bigotry. I don't have a problem with being served by a Muslim woman wearing a hijab. We're talking about showing one's face, not preventing them from practicing their whole faith. The latter is oppressive, the former isn't.

Now, you've made it clear that since that doesn't affect you, you don't care. That at least makes you selfish.
I don't understand what you mean. It affects me indirectly (hypothetically), in that I wouldn't want to be dealing with a government official who isn't showing her face, anymore than I'd want them to be working with a ski mask on. And I would totally understand if an employee felt uncomfortable serving a person with a hidden face as well.

As for the women in question, well, it turns out, there aren't that many of them - certainly not enough to make an entire law for.
It's clear that there are other motivations at play here. The fact that you fail to see the issue is a perfect example of the problem in Quebec.
I agree it probably was not worth making a law over, since it's not a big deal, and I'm not going to staunchly defend that law or whatever, but it's not rooted in racism or bigotry like you keep insisting. I don't see what you mean by "other motivations". Clearly there are people uncomfortable with being served by masked employees (or serving masked people), and they complained, and since they were federal employees it had to be written in law.

It's also funny that earlier you said women didn't even actually care (FYI I am a woman) and that it was only about old white men, yet your own link quotes a woman from a feminist group saying she thought the law was a good thing for women's equality. Oops.
 

Tabris

Member
This niqab issue just illustrates exactly where we're at in this political situation

Green <---- Liberals <---- NDP --------> Conservatives

This is our new political spectrum. Swap NDP and Liberals last election.
 

Silexx

Member
Justin Trudeau has announced that if elected, the 2015 election would be the last under a FPTP system. While they haven't committed to one system over another since they still want to 'study the issue' they're now flat out stating the system will change no matter what.
 

Tabris

Member
One thing Trudeau has mentioned before, but I don't think he'll implement or anyone else, is Mandatory Voting. I would love to see Mandatory Voting implemented personally.

You'll need to either create rules around workplace / company regulations on treating their employees required to vote and potential exception declarations, or you'll need to implement a national holiday, actually potentially all 3, but I think it's worth it.

There's a decent amount of nations out there that have mandatory voting.

Here's the list actually:

Country Age of Eligibility for Mandatory Voting Population
Argentina 18 43,024,374
Australia 18 22,507,617
Belgium 18 10,449,361
Bolivia 18 10,631,486
Brazil 18 202,656,788
Congo, Democratic Republic of the 18 77,433,744
Costa Rica 18 4,755,234
Dominican Republic 18 10,349,741
Ecuador 18 15,654,411
Egypt 18 86,895,099
Greece 18 10,775,557
Honduras 18 8,598,561
Lebanon 21 5,882,562
Luxembourg 18 520,672
Mexico 18 120,286,655
Nauru 20 9,488
Panama 18 3,608,431
Paraguay 18 6,703,860
Peru 18 30,147,935
Singapore 21 5,567,301
Thailand 18 67,741,401
Uruguay 18 3,332,972
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom