This should really be in the MCU thread. I'll reply in that thread.
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Captain America: The Winter Soldier SPOILER THREAD | ...does anyone want to get out?
- Thread starter Replicant
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Skiptastic
Member
Yeah, apparently I should have caught up with Iron Man 3 and Thor 2 (and probably rewatched the first Cap movie) before watching this movie. I was so fucking confused and I was wondering why they didn't get help from Iron Man or Hawkeye or something like that.
It was a meh movie to me. I still really like Chris Evans as Captain America, though, so only a meh movie makes it disappointing. Felt like The Winter Soldier wasn't fully developed, even though he looked extremely badass.
Maybe I just need to not watch these movie in a random order, but just wait until a whole "Phase" is done and then watch them all in order. Maybe that would make things make more sense.
And one more thing: are they insinuating that they "created" Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch? My limited comics background seems to indicate they were Magneto's mutant kids! What the fuck?
It was a meh movie to me. I still really like Chris Evans as Captain America, though, so only a meh movie makes it disappointing. Felt like The Winter Soldier wasn't fully developed, even though he looked extremely badass.
Maybe I just need to not watch these movie in a random order, but just wait until a whole "Phase" is done and then watch them all in order. Maybe that would make things make more sense.
And one more thing: are they insinuating that they "created" Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch? My limited comics background seems to indicate they were Magneto's mutant kids! What the fuck?
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
Fox has exclusive film rights to all mutants except these two, given their Avengers origins. So both Marvel and Fox can use them, but Fox can't reference Avengers and Marvel can't reference mutants or Magneto.
Nothing about IM3 and Thor 2 affects this movie, and vice versa.
Skiptastic
Member
Seems like bullshit to retcon a person's origins because of film rights. If they weren't actually insinuating that they created those two that way, then never mind. But it sure seemed like they were.
Then, again, why not contact them for help when SHIELD is looking to kill them? I mean, Iron Man could probably avoid dying from a missile shot at him. Cap could do it and he didn't have a propulsion jet suit. I thought they were all buddies, and Pierce even asked for Nick Fury to get Stark to show up at his niece's birthday or whatever, so you know Fury is still cool with Stark. It's just confusing for me.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
They aren't related...so i don't know whats going to be made clearer, the first Cap movie might help though.
Skiptastic
Member
Yeah, I'm thinking that I've just forgotten how much Bucky was in the first movie, which probably could have been useful to making the Bucky reveal more meaningful. I really liked the scene where Bucky was talking to Steve Rogers after I guess his mom died? That created more of an emotional bond. I guess I was looking for more stuff like that.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
You don't need to watch Iron Man 3 and Thor 2 for that. Just need to put the thought out of your mind. These are solo movies that are all about the characters involved and it would really cheapen it if they could just call in backup from The Avengers at any time.
And yes, this is probably their new origin in the MCU. Marvel does not have the rights to X-Men/Mutants and cannot refer to Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch as the children of Magneto. It's not an important part of their Avengers history though.
Every time...
Halcyon
Member
Because they are not real. They are stories. Like the comics, they need to have their own interesting and separate storylines. Then as a treat they get together and make avengers movies.
Just use something called suspension of disbelief.
Skiptastic
Member
Yeah, yeah. I know I'm not bringing up anything new and I know it's a story. But I was talking to my brother about it (because I didn't see Iron Man 3 or Thor 2) and apparently IM3 makes sense for others not to get involved because it was all aimed at Tony Stark and Thor 2 was in Asgard or something so that makes sense for Thor not to be all "Hey Cap, I could really use your help against these guys." (Again, that's just what I've been told, so I could be wrong...) But if you're going to name drop these people throughout the film, and then even bring up that this plan is going to kill those people, you should probably consider figuring out why Cap and the gang aren't bringing up this situation to their attention.
It's just something a normal schmuck like me is probably thinking when you have one super soldier and two above average people trying to fight an army. Just a throwaway scene or line of dialogue about how they can't contact anyone else would have rendered that complaint moot. And maybe I missed it and, if so, I apologize.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
you aint missing nothing with that shit show , its like watching them slowly kill Coulson with a shit team of agents that would be dead in minutes in any of the MCU films. ugh..
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Another +1 for the Hail Hydra meme.
Okay, this is a good point. It'd be nice if AOS actually dealt with this.
Such a great scene.
Okay, this is a good point. It'd be nice if AOS actually dealt with this.
Such a great scene.
Hail Hydra
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
You don't just "call up" Tony Stark and have him help you out. He's notoriously self-absorbed, there's virtually no chance he'd even take your call most of the time. Even putting aside the fact that in Iron Man 3 he effectively retired all his suits, the situation in Winter Soldier here developed way too fast to call some robo-man from New York in to help out. It'd take too long for him to get there, the communication itself might be intercepted by HYRDA, there's an established "don't trust anyone" thread running through the movie, etc. Tony Stark isn't actually part of SHIELD in the first place, he just helped out in New York that one time.
Just because other heroes exist, it's a pretty big stretch to assume you can just page one and have him show up for any random crisis.
Orbis Tabula
Member
I feel like the entire action of the movie happens over the course of a couple hours, so I always thought of that as justification for why no one else shows up. I mean, Stark lives on the other coast of the country, and the entire "Helicarrier taking off, announcing SHIELD is evil stuff" all happens over the pretty short period of time. I can't really see Stark being too torn up or invested when he sees Nick Fury getting attacked on TV or Captain America getting arrested. I could see him looking at that and flipping the channel. Sneaky super spies getting in trouble? Too predictable for him. For Banner and Thor, it's even easier to explain why they weren't there.
Reaching out to other Avengers -- however that would be done -- would kind of defeat the purpose of going underground. One of the reasons Steve and Widow are able to find a safehouse with Falcon is because he's not on anyone's radar. He's not an Avenger, he's not with SHIELD, no one is suspecting that their prime target is hiding out with some random VA worker.
Besides, Hawkeye is likely on a mission, Thor in Asgard, Banner is in the wind somewhere. It's not like these guys are all within reach.
I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some off-hand mention in Avengers 2 about where was Cap in Iron Man 3, or where was Tony in Cap 2, and so on. But I think the fact that it'd be dealt with in a throw away, off-hand manner at all kinda shows that it's not super important to begin with.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Why aren't the Avengers on facebook or something
Seriously though, when I read a Captain America book I don't want it to be "Captain America struggling to save the day until IRON MAN shows up and saves everyone!" If his appearance makes narrative sense then fine, but I prefer my solo books and movies to remain solo for the most part. It makes the big crossover stuff that much more special too.
Seriously though, when I read a Captain America book I don't want it to be "Captain America struggling to save the day until IRON MAN shows up and saves everyone!" If his appearance makes narrative sense then fine, but I prefer my solo books and movies to remain solo for the most part. It makes the big crossover stuff that much more special too.
Thor's on earth at the end of Thor 2.
Not that I care, really. I'm not one to get hung up on where the rest of the team, but yeah, Thor is supposed to be on earth.
I don't think Cap or Thor would utilize it at all.
I don't think they insinuated that at all, just that they had them. They say something like "this isn't just a world of genetically super powered soldiers or men using robot suots, but a world of miracles." As in these twins were born with these powers, but stating it in a way that gets around calling them mutants.
did anyone else recognize the bible quote on Fury's tombstone is the same one from his character in Pulp Fiction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-K8qi_AoXI
Besides, Hawkeye is likely on a mission, Thor in Asgard, Banner is in the wind somewhere. It's not like these guys are all within reach.
I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some off-hand mention in Avengers 2 about where was Cap in Iron Man 3, or where was Tony in Cap 2, and so on. But I think the fact that it'd be dealt with in a throw away, off-hand manner at all kinda shows that it's not super important to begin with.
Banner probably is in NY working with Tony.
The "there is no more SHIELD" thing will obviously show up in Avengers 2, where I think the point of the movie will be these people motivating themselves to form a team when there is no international spy/police organization having them do it. But the specifics of what everything was doing at the time of Cap 2 will probably be explained in one of those cheap tie-in comics they always make.
...
I thought the limited time period in which the action unfolds and the whole "don't trust anyone" theme is enough explanation and I was satisfied with it (not that I ever entertained the question really, I just know that is how it is going to be with these solo movies). I understand it is not unlikely that Tony and the rest watched the news on TV and realized shit was going down, but it is ridiculous how often the complaint comes up.
Reaching out to other Avengers -- however that would be done -- would kind of defeat the purpose of going underground. One of the reasons Steve and Widow are able to find a safehouse with Falcon is because he's not on anyone's radar. He's not an Avenger, he's not with SHIELD, no one is suspecting that their prime target is hiding out with some random VA worker.
Besides, Hawkeye is likely on a mission, Thor in Asgard, Banner is in the wind somewhere. It's not like these guys are all within reach.
I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some off-hand mention in Avengers 2 about where was Cap in Iron Man 3, or where was Tony in Cap 2, and so on. But I think the fact that it'd be dealt with in a throw away, off-hand manner at all kinda shows that it's not super important to begin with.
It was also made clear that Fury was the only one who believed that they would ever work together again. They weren't friends, they were brought together by Shield and when everything was done, they went off to do their own thing. There was never the suggestion that they had exchanged phone numbers and were ever in contact with each other after Loki was stopped.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
I just think that a side effect of the shared universe is that we as observers see everything from a perspective characters WITHIN then shared universe do not have access too. For instance Thor is bringing order to the 9 realms again , maybe you didnt see that, but its pretty clear from Thor one and Avengers that Thor understands midgard does not want interference from asgard unless its as an ally and they ask for help. Thor clearly honors this. He is also personally busy with the other realms hence the first parts of TDW he is in Vanaheim battling hordes with the warriors three. He just really wasn't on Earth very long at all ...no one would show up there. Even if they did the dark elves would've killed them outright.
Stark has some potential for Cap / BW/ Hawkguy dude bro to show up since this is up shields ally. However the US government thru Rhodes took to the task of the Mandarin, Shield does not over step the military even in the marvel U, they never got in Babbage or Ross's way I guess even Stryker got reconned in after the Xmen films. While it has fluctuated back and forth , Shield has ties and works with or in conjunction with the US government, but they are separate like the NSA and Marshalls service are. The President is definitely going to be under the watch of the military that he is in full command of hence "Iron Patriot". In the comics over time Cap goes back and forth serves in the straight up military for the president and other times as shield op for the US Gov. Either way if shield aint gonna be there neither will Cap since he's an op at this time, as are BW and Hawkdudeguybro. Thor again fighting Frost Giants, Ulk, Korg, Vanaheim, queen of Norn etc etc and respects midgards independence.
Captain America TWS HA now stark and Thor can both show up....except this is all covert shit. The world doesnt know Nick Fury let alone that he was the target. To everyone out of the loop , it was tuesday. Why didnt Cap get help? cause the winter solider moves fast as shit , he came right back at fury and got his ass. Thor is buried in Portmans tits so he doesnt know whats happening *Heimdall was his info guy but he's at the bifrost* , he would know about the helicarriers, that sequence was what 10 mins they had to stop the link up? Iron Man now HE could help except sitwell had Cap, and BW on lock down they went from being suspicious to being on the run , gotta hand it to Redford he didnt wait he went after them immediately. I honestly think Iron Man or War Machine could've been there if Cap and Tony had their way to communicate, but they aren't at that spot yet. They aren't what they are in the comics yet. If he had a secure line to Stark id say yeah he would call in the back up. Rhodey again wouldn't know shit till he saw the hellicarriers falling , Shield had lots of countries on board including the US and its military. Maybe he would be alarmed when they blew up the bunker...but again he cant just take his suit he'd have to get orders to investigate , shield / hydra covered it up.
Banner always avoids this shit.
in the end it was Fury and SHIELDS resources that tied all these heroes together for the avengers , but once they had a bunch of hydra agents inside , who's going to assemble the avengers? The person that could've , Fury had to go underground and all his resources compromised, he even put Hill in deep cover in anticipation. Post avengers 2 i fully expect the avengers to be a cohesive organization funded by stark and headed by Cap but right now they arent that single unit with communication between each other.
He's on Earth at the end but that doesn't mean he's permanently on Earth; he can go back and forth between realms again, but it's not like he has a cell phone that Steve can ring up while Thor's on another planet.
Skiptastic
Member
I agree and I'm not arguing that he should have shown up. Stark is self-absorbed, so if you tell him there are three giant warships going up in the air that are planning on shooting him dead (which, given their accuracy in shooting Falcon, might not be a concern for Iron Man) he might be inclined to help. If not by suiting up, maybe with some legacy Stark Industries weaponry, I don't know.
What I'm arguing is that you say something like that. Have Cap say "Shouldn't we get Stark involved here?" to Nick Fury in the secret bunker and have Fury explain it away in one line. It doesn't even have to make the most sense, but at least you're addressing that you've thought about it!
Again, I'm not arguing that any of it should have happened, but that it is addressed. When they go "underground", have a quick quip about "Guess that means we can't call your old buddy Hawkeye, huh Black Widow?" and her saying, "Nopre, we're on our own."
I can create a logic in my head for why a lot of things happen, but as a film goer in a straight action movie, it's better for me not to be wondering why someone is or isn't doing something and just having it explained. That way my mind is just sitting back and enjoying the excitement of the action.
This is why I brought up maybe needing to see IM3 and Thor 2 before seeing this movie. Lots of stuff going on in the other film franchises that could have subtle impacts on this film. And I definitely agree that I probably see it differently than the characters in the universe do. But that's their problem!
Again, I'll leave it at that. We can go round and round about why or why not. Just something that came to me as I was watching the film.
Oh, on a different topic, the digital aging on Peggy, while technically well done, totally pulled me out of the scene, though I did like Steve's line about "a dance from his best girl". That was very nice. But every time I looked at her, I was noticing the digital lip movement. Just get some prostethics next time!
They are allowed (there have been like a half dozen of these cameos already) and they don't seem to count as part of their contracts.
They can easily have a separate contract that says this appearance is separate from the ones signed for in the major movie contract. Otherwise Marvel just burned a
Chris Evans
Thor 2
There's a lot of real world issues preventing them from appearing in the movies, mainly -if not exclusively- business reasons. The internal logic of the movie wouldn't have to be held back by external causes, that is true and agreed upon, but it contributes. Yes, all actors are signed into a limited number of appearances, and while these can be re-negotiated, I understand Marvel wants to make the most out of each of them.
But there is also another reason, and that is simply, The Avengers is the big event and the main draw, but it is not necessarily the end all be ll of the continuity, and that is super important (for Marvel at least). This is not Harry Potter where you have a 7 (or whatever number) part story arc with a huge cast, but basically, an unlimited number of potential individual stories that sometimes converge into a big event, and where the cast will continue to change over the years.
That is why the question is always pointless and will become even more pointless as more movies are made. An Iron Man or Hulk cameo would be a neat thing for fans (the comics have the freedom to do this all the time, and even then they often don't), but these self contained stories have to stand on their own, and sometimes having that cameo would work against the purpose of the individual aspects of the story, which in this case is about how Captain America is dealing with the current world and the parts of his past that keep showing up. He has to carry all these weights on his shoulders, and having Hulk and Iron Man (on top of Widow, Fury, Hill and Falcon) show up would make him appear less and less heroic, and would diminish the point of a story centered on him.
Yes they can, and that was negotiated separately I think. It was done because apparently
Evans and Hemsworth love each other, so they wanted it to happen
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
That would actually be an interesting idea...
Heyyyy that would be cool. A Nazi robot.
That's what I thought. Zola and Jarvis A.I somehow get corrupted/ joined and he uploads himself into Iron Mans secret vibrainum armor and goes to wreck shit. He probably also takes over the Hulk Buster armor and wrecks Hulk at the beginning of the movie all while HYDRA sends the twins to wreck the other Avengers.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
It was suggested/speculated that the Insight AI created by Zola could end up being the basis for Ultron.
There's not really any basis for this. We just know that Paul Bettany is acting as The Vision in the movie and since he also voices JARVIS people are assuming a connection. It could just be that Marvel thought he was a good fit for the part because he does admittedly look like Vision and he's already done a good job voicing one computer-voiced character.
yeah, Evans has said cameos (
or at least his in Thor 2
Christopher
Member
I like these are self contained stories that showcase the strength of each character before fighting for screentime in avengers. The point of the avengers movies are a treat that we see everyone together...I'm not understanding the every movie needs more super hero thought
This would be cool, but doesn't Jarvis evolve into Vision?
I wish I could get paid to do favors...
Possible. Did the thumb drive get destroyed? I don't remember. I can see the Zola algorithm corrupting Jarvis into Ultron. And Jarvis breaking free and turning into Vision.
BW pulled it out when they realized Zola was stalling them, but I don't think it showed it again after that. So I think it's still around somewhere. Also, she initially copied it from the ship to begin with so I think even if the thumb drive is destroyed, Zola still exists in some form somewhere.
I actually want Ultron to be its own thing, if I'm honest. Maybe Tony and Banner working on something that gets out of control.
I think it would be much more effective as something done by one of our heroes that was supposed to benefit mankind and was taken a bit too far, like rogue AIs usually are, than just a remnant of Zola's work.
I think it would be much more effective as something done by one of our heroes that was supposed to benefit mankind and was taken a bit too far, like rogue AIs usually are, than just a remnant of Zola's work.