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CBC poll: Canadians want minorities to do more to 'fit in'

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digdug2k

Member
Yeah, I've come across Albertans who don't necessarily trust Trudeau but still thought Harper was one dumb motherfucker in terms of running the country, yet still opted to vote for conservatives for those specific reasons. I still find the reasoning behind that pretty iffy though, considering how much Harper looked like he was fucking that up too near the end of his reign, but it is what it is.

oh god don't bring NHLGAF's salt here zedge
Heh. My Mother-in-law is a pretty racist Calgarian, but she was born and raised that way in Nelson. There's racist people everywhere.
 

watershed

Banned
Maybe I'm terribly wrong but I think people who actually live in diverse communities do better with living with difference because it feels normal. People who live in homogeneous, culturally isolated communities tend to do a lot of long-range complaining about minorities and people from other countries and cultures even though they have minimum real life interaction with them. That's just in my experience though.
 
Maybe I'm terribly wrong but I think people who actually live in diverse communities do better with living with difference because it feels normal. People who live in homogeneous, culturally isolated communities tend to do a lot of long-range complaining about minorities and people from other countries and cultures even though they have minimum real life interaction with them. That's just in my experience though.
It's not just an anecdote. There have been studies where implicit biases can be reduced when people spend time with people from other cultures or races. Hence, why London voted against Brexit but the more rural and less diverse areas of England voted for Brexit because they don't have much contact and so immigrants come off as a boogeyman to them.
 

xevis

Banned
"What you want is creative multiculturalism, generous multiculturalism, but not unthinking or mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable," he said. "Diversity is great if we can begin to live with each other in equality, in understanding ... but we also understand our collective obligations to building a better society. If we can't live together with each other properly and make concessions to each other, then this phrase that politicians use — that diversity is a strength — is nonsensical."

Can we please talk about this quote? Because while superficially it seems reasonable, the more I read it the more it looks to me like coded racism.

What exactly is "creative multiculturalism" or "generous multiculturalism" and how do these things differ from "mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable" ?

As I understand the term, multiculturalism means respecting other people's right to preserve their heritage and practice their customs. That means dress however you like, eat however you like, pray however you like and speak however you like. Provided everyone respects the laws of the land we're all gucci. Right?

So why is there a need to make a seemingly arbitrary distinction between different "types" of multiculturalism? What are we supposed to take away from these supposedly positive terms like "creative multiculturalism" and "generous multiculturalism" vs this horrible "mindless multiculturalism" ?

Because all I'm getting is
> dress however you like, as long as I find it acceptable
> speak however you like, as long as I can understand you or at least find you endearing
> act however you like as long it's sufficiently European and white
 

Derwind

Member
Can we please talk about this quote? Because while superficially it seems reasonable, the more I read it the more it looks to me like coded racism.

What exactly is "creative multiculturalism" or "generous multiculturalism" and how do these things differ from "mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable" ?

As I understand the term, multiculturalism means respecting other people's right to preserve their heritage and practice their customs. That means dress however you like, eat however you like, pray however you like and speak however you like. Provided everyone respects the laws of the land we're all gucci. Right?

So why is there a need to make a seemingly arbitrary distinction between different "types" of multiculturalism? What are we supposed to take away from these supposedly positive terms like "creative multiculturalism" and "generous multiculturalism" vs this horrible "mindless multiculturalism" ?

Because all I'm getting is
> dress however you like, as long as I find it acceptable
> speak however you like, as long as I can understand you or at least find you endearing
> act however you like as long it's sufficiently European and white

I agree, to me it often sounds like what some people are looking for are mono-culturalism and to be frank, that is a pretty terrible idea.

To me a healthy culture is one that grows, transforms, evolves in some way when it's met with other cultures, you're encouraged to learn about each other as the world grows into a more blended configuration.

When you learn about another culture and that respect grows, you adapt foods, fashion, art from other cultures into your own and thus develop something unique to the new culture you've helped create.

We stand to gain more from multiculturalism than we do to lose it, just if you simply want to stay comfortable with the status quo, you'll find your perspective well just get narrower and narrower.

If you move to a new country it is expected of you to follow their customs and laws, I get that, but you needn't abandon your culture either.

That's what I feel IMHO.

I'm sure their will be disagreement.
 

IISANDERII

Member
Can we please talk about this quote? Because while superficially it seems reasonable, the more I read it the more it looks to me like coded racism.

What exactly is "creative multiculturalism" or "generous multiculturalism" and how do these things differ from "mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable" ?
Misogyny, for example.
 

KorrZ

Member
Because all I'm getting is
> dress however you like, as long as I find it acceptable
> speak however you like, as long as I can understand you or at least find you endearing
> act however you like as long it's sufficiently European and white

I don't think there is anything unreasonable about expecting someone who intends to live in your country permanently to learn the language.

I understand certain people come into Canada when they're older, and they might never be able to learn the language fluently. If you come over here with no intention of even trying to learn the language though then I can safely say I don't want you here.
 

Oppo

Member
Can we please talk about this quote? Because while superficially it seems reasonable, the more I read it the more it looks to me like coded racism.

What exactly is "creative multiculturalism" or "generous multiculturalism" and how do these things differ from "mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable" ?

As I understand the term, multiculturalism means respecting other people's right to preserve their heritage and practice their customs. That means dress however you like, eat however you like, pray however you like and speak however you like. Provided everyone respects the laws of the land we're all gucci. Right?

So why is there a need to make a seemingly arbitrary distinction between different "types" of multiculturalism? What are we supposed to take away from these supposedly positive terms like "creative multiculturalism" and "generous multiculturalism" vs this horrible "mindless multiculturalism" ?

Because all I'm getting is
> dress however you like, as long as I find it acceptable
> speak however you like, as long as I can understand you or at least find you endearing
> act however you like as long it's sufficiently European and white

nah. it's "bring the food and garb and art. maybe leave the honor killings and intolerance behind."
 

Azih

Member
Misogyny, for example.

nah. it's "bring the food and garb and art. maybe leave the honor killings and intolerance behind."

Here's the thing. There are Canadian laws against murder that cover 'honor' killings. There are laws against discrimination that cover misogyny and intolerance. And everyone is expected to follow Canadian laws without creating different standards for different Canadians. Unspoken expectations and vague expectations are terrible for many many reasons and that's what is being applied to immigrants here when it's said that following laws is not enough.

On the other hand if you're talking about some sort of thought policing then first off, ew, secondly it's impossible to do, and finally are 'old stock' bigotry and misogyny just fine? Cause there are people in every community like that not just immigrant ones.
 
Can we please talk about this quote? Because while superficially it seems reasonable, the more I read it the more it looks to me like coded racism.

What exactly is "creative multiculturalism" or "generous multiculturalism" and how do these things differ from "mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable" ?

As I understand the term, multiculturalism means respecting other people's right to preserve their heritage and practice their customs. That means dress however you like, eat however you like, pray however you like and speak however you like. Provided everyone respects the laws of the land we're all gucci. Right?

So why is there a need to make a seemingly arbitrary distinction between different "types" of multiculturalism? What are we supposed to take away from these supposedly positive terms like "creative multiculturalism" and "generous multiculturalism" vs this horrible "mindless multiculturalism" ?

Because all I'm getting is
> dress however you like, as long as I find it acceptable
> speak however you like, as long as I can understand you or at least find you endearing
> act however you like as long it's sufficiently European and white

Do you think people wanting more assimilation would be satisfied if just everyone knows how to speak English? Can keep their culture and heritage, but they also learn to converse with the English-speaking public.
 
I don't care what language people speak or what they believe in.

This most import thing is integration and actually intermingling

what I mean by intermingling as actually get out of the comfort bubble and make friends outside of your community and yes: allow your children to date people from different cultures

too many hard ass conservative minorities forbid their children from marrying outside the culture; they need to realize that their children are now ''Canadian'' and should be able to date any ''Canadian'' they want
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Putting it as "minorities" sounds nice and politically correct, but let's be real who this is about - muslims.
Or anyone that looks like a "muslim" (has brown skin).

This gem was plastered around the University of Alberta campus recently.

these-racist-anti-immigration-posters-targeting-men-in-turb.jpeg

I do however love the response by the community, in getting together over the last few days, and wearing turbans in solidarity.
 

HarryKS

Member
As both an immigrant and a minority, it seems reasonable. Multiculturalism does not work if it precludes respect of the land's traditions.
 

Dazzler

Member
Putting it as "minorities" sounds nice and politically correct, but let's be real who this is about - muslims.

You see more anti-Chinese sentiment in Vancouver than anything directed toward Muslims

The hot property market really stirred things up against Chinese immigrants out here
 
Here's the thing. There are Canadian laws against murder that cover 'honor' killings. There are laws against discrimination that cover misogyny and intolerance. And everyone is expected to follow Canadian laws without creating different standards for different Canadians. Unspoken expectations and vague expectations are terrible for many many reasons and that's what is being applied to immigrants here when it's said that following laws is not enough.

On the other hand if you're talking about some sort of thought policing then first off, ew, secondly it's impossible to do, and finally are 'old stock' bigotry and misogyny just fine? Cause there are people in every community like that not just immigrant ones.
Yes, there are laws against that. But you still want people who think like that to leave those thoughts behind when they move in. Nothing strange about it.

Even if people follow the letter of the law, wouldn't you want those that think those terrible things to adapt and change?
 

stuminus3

Member
My wife is a kindergarten teacher in Durham, Ontario and is expected to teach a "Canadian" curriculum but every year there's at least a couple of kids in her class that although are a visible minority have been born and raised in Canada (they are, quite literally, Canadians) yet somehow at 4 years old don't speak a word of English and have no idea how to function in a "Canadian" environment. I can understand this happening because the family have no means to help them integrate but this is Durham, Ontario so I know that can't be true.

Also to use my wife as an anecdote we were recently shopping for appliances to help out a lady because she had been completely ostracized from her Muslim community with 3 young kids and no way to support herself for the crime of leaving her husband. She left her husband because he was violent and abusive not only to her but to the children. Of course people of all race, colour and creeds have come together to help this poor woman. Her own family, her parents and siblings, have completely cut off all contact with not only her, but the kids. Because she wanted to protect them. To this day nobody has been able to explain to me why this is OK.

Protip: this post isn't racist.

Disclaimer: I'm also an immigrant, but I'm white and speak English. I completely understand that because of these things people in Canada don't even think of me as an immigrant. It's pretty stupid.
 

dluu13

Member
My wife is a kindergarten teacher in Durham, Ontario and is expected to teach a "Canadian" curriculum but every year there's at least a couple of kids in her class that although are a visible minority have been born and raised in Canada (they are, quite literally, Canadians) yet somehow at 4 years old don't speak a word of English and have no idea how to function in a "Canadian" environment. I can understand this happening because the family have no means to help them integrate but this is Durham, Ontario so I know that can't be true.

Also to use my wife as an anecdote we were recently shopping for appliances to help out a lady because she had been completely ostracized from her Muslim community with 3 young kids and no way to support herself for the crime of leaving her husband. She left her husband because he was violent and abusive not only to her but to the children. Of course people of all race, colour and creeds have come together to help this poor woman. Her own family, her parents and siblings, have completely cut off all contact with not only her, but the kids. Because she wanted to protect them. To this day nobody has been able to explain to me why this is OK.

Protip: this post isn't racist.

Disclaimer: I'm also an immigrant, but I'm white and speak English. I completely understand that because of these things people in Canada don't even think of me as an immigrant. It's pretty stupid.

Heh, I was born here too but even as I was in kindergarten, my English was poor enough to get me recommended into an English improvement class for the summer. My parents' mentality was that I would learn English anyway so if they spoke English to me then it would have been a waste of a chance to teach me Chinese. In hindsight, I thought that was a good way to do it because if not for that, my Chinese would probably be horrible.
 

Condom

Member
Is it unacceptable to nationalists to be a white hippy in hippy attire? Or only if you're a native African in African attire?

Isn't the difference in way of life between a white hippy and an average white citizen quite big?
 
My wife is a kindergarten teacher in Durham, Ontario and is expected to teach a "Canadian" curriculum but every year there's at least a couple of kids in her class that although are a visible minority have been born and raised in Canada (they are, quite literally, Canadians) yet somehow at 4 years old don't speak a word of English and have no idea how to function in a "Canadian" environment. I can understand this happening because the family have no means to help them integrate but this is Durham, Ontario so I know that can't be true.

Also to use my wife as an anecdote we were recently shopping for appliances to help out a lady because she had been completely ostracized from her Muslim community with 3 young kids and no way to support herself for the crime of leaving her husband. She left her husband because he was violent and abusive not only to her but to the children. Of course people of all race, colour and creeds have come together to help this poor woman. Her own family, her parents and siblings, have completely cut off all contact with not only her, but the kids. Because she wanted to protect them. To this day nobody has been able to explain to me why this is OK.

Protip: this post isn't racist.

Disclaimer: I'm also an immigrant, but I'm white and speak English. I completely understand that because of these things people in Canada don't even think of me as an immigrant. It's pretty stupid.
the saddest part of North-American Liberal mindset is when they are too afraid to call out Ultra-Conservative aspects of Chauvinism or Misogyny in minority cultures that keep a rigid hard lid on their cultural Conservatism (either religious, cultural or LOL honour)

If any middle ground minded person dares challenge that, we are automatically called a ''racist' just because we dare criticize cultural or religious conservatism in a minority culture.

Heck, I have been called that just because I dare be critical of religious conservatism and cultural conservatism no matter the culture.
 

Zoc

Member
Just for some perspective, I'm Canadian but have lived in Japan for 15 years. The other day I caught up with my Canadian friend from Tokyo and met his 4-year-old for the first time. I tried saying "konnichinwa" to the tyke, and it turns out that he doesn't really speak Japanese properly. His father and his mother have been speaking exclusively English to him, on the theory that he will be learning Japanese anyway, so speaking Japanese to him is just wating time that could have been spent teaching him English.

As the world turns...
 

dluu13

Member
Just for some perspective, I'm Canadian but have lived in Japan for 15 years. The other day I caught up with my Canadian friend from Tokyo and met his 4-year-old for the first time. I tried saying "konnichinwa" to the tyke, and it turns out that he doesn't really speak Japanese properly. His father and his mother have been speaking exclusively English to him, on the theory that he will be learning Japanese anyway, so speaking Japanese to him is just wating time that could have been spent teaching him English.

As the world turns...

I can agree with that mentality but that's a little extreme. Can his parents speak Japanese?
 

SRG01

Member
Montreal does it right, Toronto does it wrong.

There are ethnic neighborhoods in Montreal but there is massive spillover effect from one part a neighborhood into the other and inter-mingling from one culture with another is better than other Canadian cities. 2ndly, each neighborhood is relatively smaller melding one with the other with best spillover intermingling effect

Toronto however and its suburbs have what the author refers to as ''Enclaves'' meaning allot and allot of ethnicities bunched up together in entire neighborhoods without much inter-mingling with others and the outside

Edmonton mirrors Montreal in that very few of our neighbourhoods are cultural enclaves. People live everywhere because of our renter population and small town attitude.
 

q_q

Member
Former B.C. premier and Liberal cabinet minister Ujjal Dosanjh has written and spoken extensively about the need to address concerns about equality, race and culture in the face of blind devotion to multiculturalism. He said the poll shows Canada's political leadership needs to pay attention.

"What you want is creative multiculturalism, generous multiculturalism, but not unthinking or mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable," he said. "Diversity is great if we can begin to live with each other in equality, in understanding ... but we also understand our collective obligations to building a better society. If we can't live together with each other properly and make concessions to each other, then this phrase that politicians use — that diversity is a strength — is nonsensical."

Seems reasonable to me, honestly.
 

p_xavier

Authorized Fister
the saddest part of North-American Liberal mindset is when they are too afraid to call out Ultra-Conservative aspects of Chauvinism or Misogyny in minority cultures that keep a rigid hard lid on their cultural Conservatism (either religious, cultural or LOL honour)

If any middle ground minded person dares challenge that, we are automatically called a ''racist' just because we dare criticize cultural or religious conservatism in a minority culture.

Heck, I have been called that just because I dare be critical of religious conservatism and cultural conservatism no matter the culture.

Yup. It's the same reason the ROC sees Quebec as a racist place. They're not racists, they just don't want anything to do with religions. People of faith are basically seen as crazy people, so what do you think happens with hardcore religious people here?
 
Yup. It's the same reason the ROC sees Quebec as a racist place. They're not racists, they just don't want anything to do with religions. People of faith are basically seen as crazy people, so what do you think happens with hardcore religious people here?

there is lots identity politics being played in Quebec by nationalists; Quebec is one of the few places where they hype Nationalism being a ''good thing'' and they openly call themselves ''Nationalistes''

politicians in Quebec do use coded words like ''Quebec Values'' and ''us'' in a exclusive manor.

Not all Quebecois are like that but the ones who describes themselves as ''Nationalists'' do harp on identity politics... allot

I am weary of cultural conservatism but I am also weary of conservatism stemming from identity politics and ethnic nationalism spewed from Quebec provincial parties. Especially from the PQ and the CAQ.

Pauline Marois' Charter of Values LOL was so blatantly obvious that it was an electoral ploy to play on identity politics and fears. Thankfully she lost

I understand that Quebecois want to defend French from an ocean of English speaking North-America and were treated like crap by the ruling English earlier on in Canada's histor but the nationalst poltical parties today have peddled their brand of Nationalism in an elusive manor that pushes away anybody who is 100% ''pure-laine''
 
It's all coded language. That's why.

What is "generous multiculturalism"? "Creative multiculturalism"? Is this stuff only true Canadians do or can give the okay to?

It honestly is all bullshit. I always see people going "we wont accept honor killings or misogyny or etc" but like is this something a large chunk of immigrants actually bring with them? Things like misogyny and intolerance are traits not unique to or even strongly common to immigrants. Unless people's idea of Canadian immigrants is literally just specific portions of the middle east.

I have a large bulk of friends whose parents immigrated. The vast bulk of the stuff that a lot of people are saying in this thread literally gives the impression people don't even talk to immigrants about immigrant experience in the first place.
 

Darkangel

Member
There is so much rhetoric regarding multiculturalism in this country. We're taught from an early age that diversity is our greatest strength and that our lack of assimilation is a good thing, but no one ever stops to question what it really means. We've essentially taken Quebec's "nation within a nation" thing and applied it to all immigrant groups. I think Canada did lose something when it chose to become a blank slate county. I'm not a huge fan of Harper, but I appreciated his token acknowledgement towards Canada's history and past identity. Aside from some interesting restaurants I have yet to see any grand multicultural innovations that put us ahead in the global community.

As for the question itself? I think immigrant groups probably should be doing more to fit in. I prefer the American approach that emphasizes unity and commonality over differences and pseudo-segregation. Canada for all its talk still isn't a very diverse nation in the grand scheme of things. We won't know the full implications of the cultural mosaic until the demographics start to dramatically shift in the future.
 
There is so much rhetoric regarding multiculturalism in this country. We're taught from an early age that diversity is our greatest strength and that our lack of assimilation is a good thing, but no one ever stops to question what it really means. We've essentially taken Quebec's "nation within a nation" thing and applied it to all immigrant groups. I think Canada did lose something when it chose to become a blank slate county. I'm not a huge fan of Harper, but I appreciated his token acknowledgement towards Canada's history and past identity. Aside from some interesting restaurants I have yet to see any grand multicultural innovations that put us ahead in the global community.

As for the question itself? I think immigrant groups probably should be doing more to fit in. I prefer the American approach that emphasizes unity and commonality over differences and pseudo-segregation. Canada for all its talk still isn't a very diverse nation in the grand scheme of things. We won't know the full implications of the cultural mosaic until the demographics start to dramatically shift in the future.

Harper though had a skewed view of what is ''Canadian'' and tried to change Canadian Identity to incorporate his own political views of Conservatism and his Monarchist views into Canadian Identity.

he is bizarrely a Monarchist and reverted back naming the Armed Forces to Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force shoving the word ''Royal'' into everything

he took down a Canadian artist's painting in Rideau Hall and replaced it with a portrait of he Queen.

it's as if Harper was bent into ignoring the Repatriation of the Constitution of 1982 and just dialing Canada back to times of the Dominion. (because Harper is a Monarchist and Harper hates Pierre Trudeau)

LOL, he made a big deal about the War of 1812's 200th anniversary. A war between England and the USA but passing it as a war between Canada and the USA,
while completely ignoring the 50th Anniversary of the Canadian Flag, (Partisan hackery on part of Harper)
while completely ignoring the 30th Anniversary of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Again, partsian hackery on the part of Harper)
 

shamanick

Member
It's all coded language. That's why.

What is "generous multiculturalism"? "Creative multiculturalism"? Is this stuff only true Canadians do or can give the okay to?

Clearly you don't know who or what you are talking about, but feel free to offer your superior opinion about a country that you have no part of.

Ujjal Dosanjh using dogwhistle language. This would be hilarious if it wasn't so brutally stupid.
 
Clearly you don't know who or what you are talking about, but feel free to offer your superior opinion about a country that you have no part of.

Ujjal Dosanjh using dogwhistle language. This would be hilarious if it wasn't so brutally stupid.
Wasn't he only premier for like a year? What did he do that was so great? This is the first time I've heard him talk about multiculturalism, he sounds like an Uncle Tom.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Edmonton mirrors Montreal in that very few of our neighbourhoods are cultural enclaves. People live everywhere because of our renter population and small town attitude.
You can make an argument for Millwoods though lol.
 
On some level I get this. As a person living in Toronto I have to say, people of different ethnic backgrounds can feel extremely separated from each other in this city at times, and a lot of minority groups tend to just stick together. I've encountered more people in this city who don't speak a national language (English or French) than any other city on earth. I also can't tell you how many times I encountered students who barely understand English throughout university at UofT. It's quite common here.

On one hand, it's awesome to walk home from work every day and hear seven or eight different languages being spoken. And as a whole I love how diverse this city is. On the otherhand, it can feel strangely segregated by racial background and language at times in a way that other cities don't, because there seems to be less incentive or necessity to fully integrate.

Now, all that said, this is much more of a Toronto and Vancouver thing than a Canada as a whole thing. I've also lived in the prairies and in Northern Ontario and while things feel much less segregated there, it's also significantly less diverse.

So, I don't know. I don't even know if this is really a problem at the end if the day, but I do recognize what the underlying point being made here is; At least for Toronto it feels like a lot of people from other countries move here and don't integrate much. Part of this makes for a culturally diverse, unique, and interesting city but it also creates some challenges. It's not wrong to point out that it's a thing, though. It's definitely a thing in certain parts of Canada.
 

shamanick

Member
https://news.nationalpost.com/full-...st-debate-about-equality-race-and-culture/amp

I remain gagged. If you have receipts for why I should respect this guy then I'd like to see 'em.

If you're going to throw around accusations of "Uncle Tom" (which is as racially charged as other heinous slurs and should be banned, IMO) at people who you've based your opinion on one op-ed piece in a newspaper, then I don't really care about having a discussion with you. I guess you could start with his Wikipedia entry. I have no doubt in my mind that his contributions toward progress in Canada (and especially BC) dwarf yours.

Also, I'm not really sure what's so offensive in the article you linked.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
It seems like ultimately you can't do much anyway. You can only hope through education that people will get some "Canadian" values (liberal values) but it's just the way it is that people will interact like with like in linguistic and religious communities which manifests in self segregation in school, ethnic enclaves and retail space. The less common minorities will assimilate faster because they have to interact more with people who are different but the dominant minorities will take several generations to due to self reinforcing cultural boundaries. Anyway in Canada one doesn't even need to worry too much about illiberal values since Chinese people and South Asians are not illiberal in perspective - even mainland Chinese people tend to be ones who are more affluent and are interacting anyway with many Hong Kong Chinese who already assume most Canadian values. I think white people and smaller minorities are just rubbed the wrong way by the self segregation of dominant Asian groups like they're in a completely different universe from everyone else.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Honestly, if your answer to the question isn't "It's complicated" then I feel like you haven't enough knowledge on the topic.

The question itself is pretty vague and open ended that you can read into it in many different ways. But say you're someone from Kingston, Ontario and heard about the Shafia family killings from 2009, then I'm not going to gnash my teeth at you for answering that you agree with the statement. Or how about the protests over the 2015 Ontario Sex Ed reform and the number of families who wanted to pull their children from it to avoid "cultural indoctrination?"

The problem with the comment on keeping customs is that it covers too much ground. I 100% agree that Canada should not accept ideas of honour killings in anyway shape, or form. I also don't think that children should be denied basic sex education because their parents are from countries that don't believe in teaching their children to even identify basic anatomy. I don't think it's unreasonable for immigrants to be expected to meet certain Canadian expectations of individual liberty and self expression. If your culture includes bigotry or repression of sexual or gender minorities then you should be expected to leave those beliefs at the door.

Multiculturalism is an empty goal if it requires accepting regressive ideals. If people are going to throw a fit over niqabs, then yes I'd be willing to argue that their expectations of immigrants is ridiculous. But on the other hand, if it's to keep people from killing daughters who have the gall to date in their teenage years or to shelter their children from learning about homosexuality then I'm sorry but they should be expected to meet our values.

That the poll tied culture to language is also odd and furthers muddies any sort of conclusion to draw from the results.
100% this.

To be fair, I've met some Arabs and French Caucasians (teenagers and grown ass men), who also didn't speak a lick of English either. They knew French though.
If they lived in Québec, what's the problem? French is the official language of Québec. A lot of Québécois speak English for the convenience, not out of "Canadian" responsibility or whatever the hell.

That is a terrible way of simplifying a false dichotomy. I am sure the vast majority would want minorities to keep their own customs and languages but ALSO do more to integrate into Canadian society.
Aye.

It's not racist to want immigrants (esp. their kids) to learn the language of the place they are coming to. Nor is it racist to want them to not educate their kids with homophobic or misogynistic values, or not want them to teach their kids that interracial dating/marriage is wrong.

I'm not sure what the actual solution to that would be, but encouraging integration and interacting with people from different communities and not just their own sounds good to me.

It's all coded language. That's why.
Not even close. This isn't Trump's USA, stop making assumptions.

What is "generous multiculturalism"? "Creative multiculturalism"? Is this stuff only true Canadians do or can give the okay to?
How you'd jump to that conclusion is really beyond me.
 

ElNino

Member
Completely believable. Some neighbourhoods in the city are over saturated with one or two ethnic groups to the point where store signage is no longer in English.
It's true, particularly in Markham.

I've been undergoing quite a few tests lately for some recent medical conditions, mostly at Markham Stouffville hospital and the surrounding area clinics. They all mention to bring someone to translate if I can't speak or understand English. I can, but there are always a few individuals there who cannot (they are typically older however).
 
Liberalism should not be blind just for the sake of inclusion.

Liberalism requires boundaries such as maintaining gender equality, women rights, gay rights and not caving into conservative religious demands that have misogyny or homophobia attached to them

also an inclusive society also means that people integrate, mingle and get out of their bubbles.

and let your kids date outside your culture.

I have a Greek friend who is insane who only wants to date Greek Orthodox women exclusively only. He is single still
 
Yesterday at a panel on brexit we talked about how Trudeau said canada was "post-national". I have no education in anthropology but two of the panel were doctorates and with visible minorities in the audience talked how 1) Canada doesnt really have a culture or national identity really and that to call us post national was ridiculous. 2) Canada's multiculturalism is law but not an overwhelming social convention. On top of that other Profs talked how multiculturalism was more or less for economic reasons (such that yeah we need more folks up in here) as well as from my knowledge group rights was put into the constitution in order to help get it passed in the first place. Minorities in the audience talked about superfluous (is that the right term?) multiculturalism in Canada where yeah we appreciate the food, dress, and other things but are not necessarily the people or their traditions. (This is BC lower mainland btw so IDK how this convo plays out across the country)
 

oti

Banned
Just for some perspective, I'm Canadian but have lived in Japan for 15 years. The other day I caught up with my Canadian friend from Tokyo and met his 4-year-old for the first time. I tried saying "konnichinwa" to the tyke, and it turns out that he doesn't really speak Japanese properly. His father and his mother have been speaking exclusively English to him, on the theory that he will be learning Japanese anyway, so speaking Japanese to him is just wating time that could have been spent teaching him English.

As the world turns...

That's how I grew up. I was born in Germany but my parents never spoke German to me. It was also the advice they were given by the doctor, to not mish mash the languages. It was tough on me and I had to repeat kindergarten because of it but in the end I had the best German grades in my class and I'm as German as a Butterbrot.

It's quite interesting that I can see the very same thing happening with my cousin, who unlike me, wasn't born in Germany. And he too struggled at the beginning with the language but now he's 7 and he's pretty much acing it.

Tbh I think this is the right approach. To keep it one language at home and the other at school. It's all about balance in the end. Don't demonize the other language and don't confuse the kid by changing languages all the time.

As far as the main topic goes, it is absolutely understandable and legitimate to ask immigrants to integrate better in the society. There's nothing wrong about that. Integration is something that both sides need to strive for. Being open minded is key here.
 

Azih

Member
Yes, there are laws against that. But you still want people who think like that to leave those thoughts behind when they move in. Nothing strange about it.

Even if people follow the letter of the law, wouldn't you want those that think those terrible things to adapt and change?

I want all bigots and misogynists to stop being bigots and misogynists but it has no relation to where they were born.
 

shamanick

Member
Yesterday at a panel on brexit we talked about how Trudeau said canada was "post-national". I have no education in anthropology but two of the panel were doctorates and with visible minorities in the audience talked how 1) Canada doesnt really have a culture or national identity really and that to call us post national was ridiculous.

I agree that calling us post-national is ridiculous, but I also would disagree strongly that we don't have a cultural or national identity.

Minorities in the audience talked about superfluous (is that the right term?) multiculturalism in Canada where yeah we appreciate the food, dress, and other things but are not necessarily the people or their traditions. (This is BC lower mainland btw so IDK how this convo plays out across the country)

I am curious how the minorities who spoke in your session would want Canadians to express our multiculturalism in more inclusive ways.
 
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