Heh. My Mother-in-law is a pretty racist Calgarian, but she was born and raised that way in Nelson. There's racist people everywhere.
CBC poll: Canadians want minorities to do more to 'fit in'
- Thread starter MMarston
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Are they our hat or are we their pants?
I still find it hard to believe Naheed Nenshi was actually elected mayor.
Maybe I'm terribly wrong but I think people who actually live in diverse communities do better with living with difference because it feels normal. People who live in homogeneous, culturally isolated communities tend to do a lot of long-range complaining about minorities and people from other countries and cultures even though they have minimum real life interaction with them. That's just in my experience though.
Messofanego
Banned
It's not just an anecdote. There have been studies where implicit biases can be reduced when people spend time with people from other cultures or races. Hence, why London voted against Brexit but the more rural and less diverse areas of England voted for Brexit because they don't have much contact and so immigrants come off as a boogeyman to them.
Can we please talk about this quote? Because while superficially it seems reasonable, the more I read it the more it looks to me like coded racism.
What exactly is "creative multiculturalism" or "generous multiculturalism" and how do these things differ from "mindless multiculturalism where everything anybody brings to this country is acceptable" ?
As I understand the term, multiculturalism means respecting other people's right to preserve their heritage and practice their customs. That means dress however you like, eat however you like, pray however you like and speak however you like. Provided everyone respects the laws of the land we're all gucci. Right?
So why is there a need to make a seemingly arbitrary distinction between different "types" of multiculturalism? What are we supposed to take away from these supposedly positive terms like "creative multiculturalism" and "generous multiculturalism" vs this horrible "mindless multiculturalism" ?
Because all I'm getting is
> dress however you like, as long as I find it acceptable
> speak however you like, as long as I can understand you or at least find you endearing
> act however you like as long it's sufficiently European and white
I agree, to me it often sounds like what some people are looking for are mono-culturalism and to be frank, that is a pretty terrible idea.
To me a healthy culture is one that grows, transforms, evolves in some way when it's met with other cultures, you're encouraged to learn about each other as the world grows into a more blended configuration.
When you learn about another culture and that respect grows, you adapt foods, fashion, art from other cultures into your own and thus develop something unique to the new culture you've helped create.
We stand to gain more from multiculturalism than we do to lose it, just if you simply want to stay comfortable with the status quo, you'll find your perspective well just get narrower and narrower.
If you move to a new country it is expected of you to follow their customs and laws, I get that, but you needn't abandon your culture either.
That's what I feel IMHO.
I'm sure their will be disagreement.
IISANDERII
Member
Misogyny, for example.
I don't think there is anything unreasonable about expecting someone who intends to live in your country permanently to learn the language.
I understand certain people come into Canada when they're older, and they might never be able to learn the language fluently. If you come over here with no intention of even trying to learn the language though then I can safely say I don't want you here.
Oppo
Member
nah. it's "bring the food and garb and art. maybe leave the honor killings and intolerance behind."
Here's the thing. There are Canadian laws against murder that cover 'honor' killings. There are laws against discrimination that cover misogyny and intolerance. And everyone is expected to follow Canadian laws without creating different standards for different Canadians. Unspoken expectations and vague expectations are terrible for many many reasons and that's what is being applied to immigrants here when it's said that following laws is not enough.
On the other hand if you're talking about some sort of thought policing then first off, ew, secondly it's impossible to do, and finally are 'old stock' bigotry and misogyny just fine? Cause there are people in every community like that not just immigrant ones.
Messofanego
Banned
Do you think people wanting more assimilation would be satisfied if just everyone knows how to speak English? Can keep their culture and heritage, but they also learn to converse with the English-speaking public.
gutter_trash
Banned
I don't care what language people speak or what they believe in.
This most import thing is integration and actually intermingling
what I mean by intermingling as actually get out of the comfort bubble and make friends outside of your community and yes: allow your children to date people from different cultures
too many hard ass conservative minorities forbid their children from marrying outside the culture; they need to realize that their children are now ''Canadian'' and should be able to date any ''Canadian'' they want
This most import thing is integration and actually intermingling
what I mean by intermingling as actually get out of the comfort bubble and make friends outside of your community and yes: allow your children to date people from different cultures
too many hard ass conservative minorities forbid their children from marrying outside the culture; they need to realize that their children are now ''Canadian'' and should be able to date any ''Canadian'' they want
Following my earlier post, I feel like I'm turning racist against my own race (Chinese).
Or anyone that looks like a "muslim" (has brown skin).
This gem was plastered around the University of Alberta campus recently.
I do however love the response by the community, in getting together over the last few days, and wearing turbans in solidarity.
You see more anti-Chinese sentiment in Vancouver than anything directed toward Muslims
The hot property market really stirred things up against Chinese immigrants out here
ClosingADoor
Member
Yes, there are laws against that. But you still want people who think like that to leave those thoughts behind when they move in. Nothing strange about it.
Even if people follow the letter of the law, wouldn't you want those that think those terrible things to adapt and change?
SturokBGD
Member
My wife is a kindergarten teacher in Durham, Ontario and is expected to teach a "Canadian" curriculum but every year there's at least a couple of kids in her class that although are a visible minority have been born and raised in Canada (they are, quite literally, Canadians) yet somehow at 4 years old don't speak a word of English and have no idea how to function in a "Canadian" environment. I can understand this happening because the family have no means to help them integrate but this is Durham, Ontario so I know that can't be true.
Also to use my wife as an anecdote we were recently shopping for appliances to help out a lady because she had been completely ostracized from her Muslim community with 3 young kids and no way to support herself for the crime of leaving her husband. She left her husband because he was violent and abusive not only to her but to the children. Of course people of all race, colour and creeds have come together to help this poor woman. Her own family, her parents and siblings, have completely cut off all contact with not only her, but the kids. Because she wanted to protect them. To this day nobody has been able to explain to me why this is OK.
Protip: this post isn't racist.
Disclaimer: I'm also an immigrant, but I'm white and speak English. I completely understand that because of these things people in Canada don't even think of me as an immigrant. It's pretty stupid.
Also to use my wife as an anecdote we were recently shopping for appliances to help out a lady because she had been completely ostracized from her Muslim community with 3 young kids and no way to support herself for the crime of leaving her husband. She left her husband because he was violent and abusive not only to her but to the children. Of course people of all race, colour and creeds have come together to help this poor woman. Her own family, her parents and siblings, have completely cut off all contact with not only her, but the kids. Because she wanted to protect them. To this day nobody has been able to explain to me why this is OK.
Protip: this post isn't racist.
Disclaimer: I'm also an immigrant, but I'm white and speak English. I completely understand that because of these things people in Canada don't even think of me as an immigrant. It's pretty stupid.
Heh, I was born here too but even as I was in kindergarten, my English was poor enough to get me recommended into an English improvement class for the summer. My parents' mentality was that I would learn English anyway so if they spoke English to me then it would have been a waste of a chance to teach me Chinese. In hindsight, I thought that was a good way to do it because if not for that, my Chinese would probably be horrible.
gutter_trash
Banned
the saddest part of North-American Liberal mindset is when they are too afraid to call out Ultra-Conservative aspects of Chauvinism or Misogyny in minority cultures that keep a rigid hard lid on their cultural Conservatism (either religious, cultural or LOL honour)
If any middle ground minded person dares challenge that, we are automatically called a ''racist' just because we dare criticize cultural or religious conservatism in a minority culture.
Heck, I have been called that just because I dare be critical of religious conservatism and cultural conservatism no matter the culture.
Just for some perspective, I'm Canadian but have lived in Japan for 15 years. The other day I caught up with my Canadian friend from Tokyo and met his 4-year-old for the first time. I tried saying "konnichinwa" to the tyke, and it turns out that he doesn't really speak Japanese properly. His father and his mother have been speaking exclusively English to him, on the theory that he will be learning Japanese anyway, so speaking Japanese to him is just wating time that could have been spent teaching him English.
As the world turns...
As the world turns...
Edmonton mirrors Montreal in that very few of our neighbourhoods are cultural enclaves. People live everywhere because of our renter population and small town attitude.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
p_xavier
Authorized Fister
Yup. It's the same reason the ROC sees Quebec as a racist place. They're not racists, they just don't want anything to do with religions. People of faith are basically seen as crazy people, so what do you think happens with hardcore religious people here?
gutter_trash
Banned
there is lots identity politics being played in Quebec by nationalists; Quebec is one of the few places where they hype Nationalism being a ''good thing'' and they openly call themselves ''Nationalistes''
politicians in Quebec do use coded words like ''Quebec Values'' and ''us'' in a exclusive manor.
Not all Quebecois are like that but the ones who describes themselves as ''Nationalists'' do harp on identity politics... allot
I am weary of cultural conservatism but I am also weary of conservatism stemming from identity politics and ethnic nationalism spewed from Quebec provincial parties. Especially from the PQ and the CAQ.
Pauline Marois' Charter of Values LOL was so blatantly obvious that it was an electoral ploy to play on identity politics and fears. Thankfully she lost
I understand that Quebecois want to defend French from an ocean of English speaking North-America and were treated like crap by the ruling English earlier on in Canada's histor but the nationalst poltical parties today have peddled their brand of Nationalism in an elusive manor that pushes away anybody who is 100% ''pure-laine''
Gotdatmoney
Member
It honestly is all bullshit. I always see people going "we wont accept honor killings or misogyny or etc" but like is this something a large chunk of immigrants actually bring with them? Things like misogyny and intolerance are traits not unique to or even strongly common to immigrants. Unless people's idea of Canadian immigrants is literally just specific portions of the middle east.
I have a large bulk of friends whose parents immigrated. The vast bulk of the stuff that a lot of people are saying in this thread literally gives the impression people don't even talk to immigrants about immigrant experience in the first place.
Darkangel
Member
There is so much rhetoric regarding multiculturalism in this country. We're taught from an early age that diversity is our greatest strength and that our lack of assimilation is a good thing, but no one ever stops to question what it really means. We've essentially taken Quebec's "nation within a nation" thing and applied it to all immigrant groups. I think Canada did lose something when it chose to become a blank slate county. I'm not a huge fan of Harper, but I appreciated his token acknowledgement towards Canada's history and past identity. Aside from some interesting restaurants I have yet to see any grand multicultural innovations that put us ahead in the global community.
As for the question itself? I think immigrant groups probably should be doing more to fit in. I prefer the American approach that emphasizes unity and commonality over differences and pseudo-segregation. Canada for all its talk still isn't a very diverse nation in the grand scheme of things. We won't know the full implications of the cultural mosaic until the demographics start to dramatically shift in the future.
As for the question itself? I think immigrant groups probably should be doing more to fit in. I prefer the American approach that emphasizes unity and commonality over differences and pseudo-segregation. Canada for all its talk still isn't a very diverse nation in the grand scheme of things. We won't know the full implications of the cultural mosaic until the demographics start to dramatically shift in the future.
gutter_trash
Banned
Harper though had a skewed view of what is ''Canadian'' and tried to change Canadian Identity to incorporate his own political views of Conservatism and his Monarchist views into Canadian Identity.
he is bizarrely a Monarchist and reverted back naming the Armed Forces to Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force shoving the word ''Royal'' into everything
he took down a Canadian artist's painting in Rideau Hall and replaced it with a portrait of he Queen.
it's as if Harper was bent into ignoring the Repatriation of the Constitution of 1982 and just dialing Canada back to times of the Dominion. (because Harper is a Monarchist and Harper hates Pierre Trudeau)
LOL, he made a big deal about the War of 1812's 200th anniversary. A war between England and the USA but passing it as a war between Canada and the USA,
while completely ignoring the 50th Anniversary of the Canadian Flag, (Partisan hackery on part of Harper)
while completely ignoring the 30th Anniversary of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Again, partsian hackery on the part of Harper)
Clearly you don't know who or what you are talking about, but feel free to offer your superior opinion about a country that you have no part of.
Ujjal Dosanjh using dogwhistle language. This would be hilarious if it wasn't so brutally stupid.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Wasn't he only premier for like a year? What did he do that was so great? This is the first time I've heard him talk about multiculturalism, he sounds like an Uncle Tom.
You can make an argument for Millwoods though lol.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
https://news.nationalpost.com/full-...st-debate-about-equality-race-and-culture/amp
I remain gagged. If you have receipts for why I should respect this guy then I'd like to see 'em.
mullet2000
Member
On some level I get this. As a person living in Toronto I have to say, people of different ethnic backgrounds can feel extremely separated from each other in this city at times, and a lot of minority groups tend to just stick together. I've encountered more people in this city who don't speak a national language (English or French) than any other city on earth. I also can't tell you how many times I encountered students who barely understand English throughout university at UofT. It's quite common here.
On one hand, it's awesome to walk home from work every day and hear seven or eight different languages being spoken. And as a whole I love how diverse this city is. On the otherhand, it can feel strangely segregated by racial background and language at times in a way that other cities don't, because there seems to be less incentive or necessity to fully integrate.
Now, all that said, this is much more of a Toronto and Vancouver thing than a Canada as a whole thing. I've also lived in the prairies and in Northern Ontario and while things feel much less segregated there, it's also significantly less diverse.
So, I don't know. I don't even know if this is really a problem at the end if the day, but I do recognize what the underlying point being made here is; At least for Toronto it feels like a lot of people from other countries move here and don't integrate much. Part of this makes for a culturally diverse, unique, and interesting city but it also creates some challenges. It's not wrong to point out that it's a thing, though. It's definitely a thing in certain parts of Canada.
On one hand, it's awesome to walk home from work every day and hear seven or eight different languages being spoken. And as a whole I love how diverse this city is. On the otherhand, it can feel strangely segregated by racial background and language at times in a way that other cities don't, because there seems to be less incentive or necessity to fully integrate.
Now, all that said, this is much more of a Toronto and Vancouver thing than a Canada as a whole thing. I've also lived in the prairies and in Northern Ontario and while things feel much less segregated there, it's also significantly less diverse.
So, I don't know. I don't even know if this is really a problem at the end if the day, but I do recognize what the underlying point being made here is; At least for Toronto it feels like a lot of people from other countries move here and don't integrate much. Part of this makes for a culturally diverse, unique, and interesting city but it also creates some challenges. It's not wrong to point out that it's a thing, though. It's definitely a thing in certain parts of Canada.
If you're going to throw around accusations of "Uncle Tom" (which is as racially charged as other heinous slurs and should be banned, IMO) at people who you've based your opinion on one op-ed piece in a newspaper, then I don't really care about having a discussion with you. I guess you could start with his Wikipedia entry. I have no doubt in my mind that his contributions toward progress in Canada (and especially BC) dwarf yours.
Also, I'm not really sure what's so offensive in the article you linked.
Shai-Tan
Banned
It seems like ultimately you can't do much anyway. You can only hope through education that people will get some "Canadian" values (liberal values) but it's just the way it is that people will interact like with like in linguistic and religious communities which manifests in self segregation in school, ethnic enclaves and retail space. The less common minorities will assimilate faster because they have to interact more with people who are different but the dominant minorities will take several generations to due to self reinforcing cultural boundaries. Anyway in Canada one doesn't even need to worry too much about illiberal values since Chinese people and South Asians are not illiberal in perspective - even mainland Chinese people tend to be ones who are more affluent and are interacting anyway with many Hong Kong Chinese who already assume most Canadian values. I think white people and smaller minorities are just rubbed the wrong way by the self segregation of dominant Asian groups like they're in a completely different universe from everyone else.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
100% this.
If they lived in Québec, what's the problem? French is the official language of Québec. A lot of Québécois speak English for the convenience, not out of "Canadian" responsibility or whatever the hell.
Aye.
It's not racist to want immigrants (esp. their kids) to learn the language of the place they are coming to. Nor is it racist to want them to not educate their kids with homophobic or misogynistic values, or not want them to teach their kids that interracial dating/marriage is wrong.
I'm not sure what the actual solution to that would be, but encouraging integration and interacting with people from different communities and not just their own sounds good to me.
Not even close. This isn't Trump's USA, stop making assumptions.
How you'd jump to that conclusion is really beyond me.
It's true, particularly in Markham.
I've been undergoing quite a few tests lately for some recent medical conditions, mostly at Markham Stouffville hospital and the surrounding area clinics. They all mention to bring someone to translate if I can't speak or understand English. I can, but there are always a few individuals there who cannot (they are typically older however).
gutter_trash
Banned
Liberalism should not be blind just for the sake of inclusion.
Liberalism requires boundaries such as maintaining gender equality, women rights, gay rights and not caving into conservative religious demands that have misogyny or homophobia attached to them
also an inclusive society also means that people integrate, mingle and get out of their bubbles.
and let your kids date outside your culture.
I have a Greek friend who is insane who only wants to date Greek Orthodox women exclusively only. He is single still
Liberalism requires boundaries such as maintaining gender equality, women rights, gay rights and not caving into conservative religious demands that have misogyny or homophobia attached to them
also an inclusive society also means that people integrate, mingle and get out of their bubbles.
and let your kids date outside your culture.
I have a Greek friend who is insane who only wants to date Greek Orthodox women exclusively only. He is single still
cryptosporidium
Member
Yesterday at a panel on brexit we talked about how Trudeau said canada was "post-national". I have no education in anthropology but two of the panel were doctorates and with visible minorities in the audience talked how 1) Canada doesnt really have a culture or national identity really and that to call us post national was ridiculous. 2) Canada's multiculturalism is law but not an overwhelming social convention. On top of that other Profs talked how multiculturalism was more or less for economic reasons (such that yeah we need more folks up in here) as well as from my knowledge group rights was put into the constitution in order to help get it passed in the first place. Minorities in the audience talked about superfluous (is that the right term?) multiculturalism in Canada where yeah we appreciate the food, dress, and other things but are not necessarily the people or their traditions. (This is BC lower mainland btw so IDK how this convo plays out across the country)
That's how I grew up. I was born in Germany but my parents never spoke German to me. It was also the advice they were given by the doctor, to not mish mash the languages. It was tough on me and I had to repeat kindergarten because of it but in the end I had the best German grades in my class and I'm as German as a Butterbrot.
It's quite interesting that I can see the very same thing happening with my cousin, who unlike me, wasn't born in Germany. And he too struggled at the beginning with the language but now he's 7 and he's pretty much acing it.
Tbh I think this is the right approach. To keep it one language at home and the other at school. It's all about balance in the end. Don't demonize the other language and don't confuse the kid by changing languages all the time.
As far as the main topic goes, it is absolutely understandable and legitimate to ask immigrants to integrate better in the society. There's nothing wrong about that. Integration is something that both sides need to strive for. Being open minded is key here.
You tell me, it seems like you're the expert here on how Canadians really feel
I want all bigots and misogynists to stop being bigots and misogynists but it has no relation to where they were born.
I agree that calling us post-national is ridiculous, but I also would disagree strongly that we don't have a cultural or national identity.
I am curious how the minorities who spoke in your session would want Canadians to express our multiculturalism in more inclusive ways.
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