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[JZA]

I can understand the feelings on both sides, I agree with what an earlier poster had mentioned, any attempt at greater integration will probably have to start in schools.

In regards to ethnic enclaves developing, I remember when I lived in Toronto, some towns would put on this "Fiesta Week" (http://www.fiestaweek.com/) where different ethnicities would set up their own banquet hall complete with their own cultural decorations, garb, performances, FOOD (best part), and have this weeklong evening party basically where people in the city could visit different cultures and get a taste of their food, music, dancing, etc. As a kid I thought it was really great, and I think this type of program is a good idea for helping people learn and appreciate different ethnicities. At least Canada has programs like this to support integration, I've never seen anything like it in the US so far.

 

[cryptosporidium]

I am curious how the minorities who spoke in your session would want Canadians to express our multiculturalism in more inclusive ways.

From what I recall none gave an answer to that. I assume they'd like less overt racism such as the Harpers government creating wedge issues last election but imo the best cure for xenophobic rhetoric is curry, pho, and middle eastern donairs. You dont bite the hand that feeds you as they say

 

[xevis]

Super interesting discussion.

Do you think people wanting more assimilation would be satisfied if just everyone knows how to speak English? Can keep their culture and heritage, but they also learn to converse with the English-speaking public.

I have no idea.

I will say criticisms involving someone's English proficiency usually have a subtext of wilful obstinacy which I find insincere and unfair. There also seems to be a double standard at play insofar as these criticisms are not really leveled at natives with a poor command of their mother tongue. Finally I find these arguments hypocritical when coming from people that otherwise purport to be in favour of inclusivity and tolerance. They come off like,

> You can preserve your heritage, your culture and your language as long as you do it in such a way that I don't have to engage with it if I don't want to

Yes, there are laws against that. But you still want people who think like that to leave those thoughts behind when they move in. Nothing strange about it.

Even if people follow the letter of the law, wouldn't you want those that think those terrible things to adapt and change?

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. That migrants don't change? The entire history of places like Australia and Canada (and its pants) says they do. Obviously that change takes time with first-generation migrants being the slowest to adapt.

My wife is a kindergarten teacher in Durham, Ontario and is expected to teach a "Canadian" curriculum but every year there's at least a couple of kids in her class that although are a visible minority have been born and raised in Canada (they are, quite literally, Canadians) yet somehow at 4 years old don't speak a word of English and have no idea how to function in a "Canadian" environment. I can understand this happening because the family have no means to help them integrate but this is Durham, Ontario so I know that can't be true.

I don't understand. Why is there a problem with a 4 year old learning a language other than English as their first language? There's no way known they can avoid English once they're in the school system.

Also to use my wife as an anecdote we were recently shopping for appliances to help out a lady because she had been completely ostracized from her Muslim community with 3 young kids and no way to support herself for the crime of leaving her husband. She left her husband because he was violent and abusive not only to her but to the children. Of course people of all race, colour and creeds have come together to help this poor woman. Her own family, her parents and siblings, have completely cut off all contact with not only her, but the kids. Because she wanted to protect them. To this day nobody has been able to explain to me why this is OK.

Familial ostracism, marriages that go bad and spousal abuse are not uniquely Muslim problems and I assume the lady in question had access to the same support services as any other Canadian in her circumstances. So why bring up her background?

 

[cryptosporidium]

Familial ostracism, marriages that go bad and spousal abuse are not uniquely Muslim problems and I assume the lady in question had access to the same support services as any other Canadian in her circumstances. So why bring up her background?

Because its relevant when talking about newcomers? There exists different and sometimes violent ideas that are ingrained in family situations and religions across the world. We have enough problems with social conservatism over here as it is

edit: this isnt directed towards islam entirely, but all ideologies where some people base their social conservatism on

 

[diaspora]

Because its relevant when talking about newcomers? There exists different and sometimes violent ideas that are ingrained in family situations and religions across the world. We have enough problems with social conservatism over here as it is

marriages that go bad and spousal abuse are not uniquely Muslim problems

.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

I've never seen anything like it in the US so far.

That's because we don't really believe in integration like that. There are communities where people don't even speak English (can only read street signs to drive), and that's enough to get by. You socialize with people who speak your language in your community, and you buy food and whatnot without a giant conversation. It's fine. We don't even have an official language here.

In general (and this is anecdotal), I don't know that I've ever met someone who was opposed to non-English speaking who wasn't really just dog-whistling about brown people at Walmart speaking Spanish to their kids. Pisses them off to hear Spanish or Arabic instead of English, but it's never any of your business.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

1) Everyone should have some minimal ability with the main language of the country they reside in.

2) If the country is multicultural and generally tolerant and the immigrating society is monocultural and generally repressive, it's worthwhile to monitor the immigrants for radicalism and xenophobia. e.g. Anjem Choudary was spewing all manner of hatred for years and it turns out he has been funneling fighters to ISIS, so was net detrimental to UK society despite being a "native" whereas the Somali dude who runs the cafe near my place is chill as fuck and makes good halwa so is a net positive to society despite being a "terrorist immigrant". Careful discrimination should be applied.

 

[Heshinsi]

This just happened a few hours ago at the University of Calgary:

I'm sure you guys have seen the anti-Sikh poster that went up at the University of Alberta a few weeks back. There's going to be an anti-LGBT poster plastered at MacEwan Univeristy in a few weeks time at this rate.

 

[xevis]

2) If the country is multicultural and generally tolerant and the immigrating society is monocultural and generally repressive, it's worthwhile to monitor the immigrants for radicalism and xenophobia.

Not only is this incredibly racist and dehumanising but it's also stupidly ineffective. No society is immune from radicalisation, including those which purport to be multicultural and/or generally tolerant. Just look at Anders Breivik or the Planned Parenthood shooter or the psycho responsible for Port Arthur. In every society you will find people who, for a variety of reasons, feel bitter toward and marginalised by mainstream society.

Infact, since we can never know where one of these nutters will turn up, why stop at monitoring only migrants? Just put everyone on a watch list. Eh? How would that be?

 

[Heshinsi]

Not only is this incredibly racist and dehumanising but it's also stupidly ineffective. No society is immune from radicalisation, including those which purport to be multicultural and/or generally tolerant. Just look at Anders Breivik or the Planned Parenthood shooter or the psycho responsible for Port Arthur. In every society you will find people who, for a variety of reasons, feel bitter toward and marginalised by mainstream society.

Infact, since we can never know where one of these nutters will turn up, why stop at monitoring only migrants? Just put everyone on a watch list. Eh? How would that be?

Hey that's not my words lol. Unquote me from this libellous post.

 

[xevis]

Hey that's not my words lol. Unquote me from this libellous post.

lol, sorry. I wanted to respond to your UCalgary post and the one above but things got mixed up.

#plznolawsuits.

 

[firehawk12]

I mean our Charter basically tells people to fit in by saying there are only 2 official languages in the country and several other languages that should be "respected", so yeah.

 

[King Gilga]

This just happened a few hours ago at the University of Calgary:



I'm sure you guys have seen the anti-Sikh poster that went up at the University of Alberta a few weeks back. There's going to be an anti-LGBT poster plastered at MacEwan Univeristy in a few weeks time at this rate.

Wow wtf, glad I left that shithole 10 years ago.

 

[theRizzle]

we have an extremely popular broadcast of Hockey Night In Canada in Punjabi

i think we are doing okay, relatively

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Super interesting discussion.



I have no idea.

I will say criticisms involving someone's English proficiency usually have a subtext of wilful obstinacy which I find insincere and unfair. There also seems to be a double standard at play insofar as these criticisms are not really leveled at natives with a poor command of their mother tongue.

In the last few years I've gotten looks from mainland Chinese for not speaking their language, and I've gotten a lot of pressure from people to teach my baby boy some form of Chinese even though my wife and I are basically in an English speaking household living in a non-Chinese neighborhood in Toronto and outside of Chinese food from time to time nothing else really interests me. You'll be surprised how much pressure gets put on people to be multicultural.

The last thing I want is for my child to look as himself as a "minority" instead of just plain Canadian who experienced the hip even before he was out of the womb and loving sitting beside his dad watching the blue jays and timber Kings on tv.

 

[Heshinsi]

In the last few years I've gotten looks from mainland Chinese for not speaking their language, and I've gotten a lot of pressure from people to teach my baby boy some form of Chinese even though my wife and I are basically in an English speaking household living in a non-Chinese neighborhood in Toronto and outside of Chinese food from time to time nothing else really interests me. You'll be surprised how much pressure gets put on people to be multicultural.

When I was working at Future Shop part time, I had an Egyption Salafi guy tell me straight in my face, that I've ruined my future children's life by not being able to speak Arabic fluently. My friend at customer service asked me after he left, if I had known this guy. Of course I didn't. All I did was walk him to the front to make a return, and then looked at my name tag and said, "where are you from?!" Dude wanted to know where my dad worked at so he could talk to him 😂

 

[ProfessorMoran]

When I was working at Future Shop part time, I had an Egyption Salafi guy tell me straight in my face, that I've ruined my future children's life by not being able to speak Arabic fluently. My friend at customer service asked me after he left, if I had known this guy. Of course I didn't. All I did was walk him to the front to make a return, and then looked at my name tag and said, "where are you from?!" Dude wanted to know where my dad worked at so he could talk to him 😂

That dude is just rude.

I never understood why not speaking a foreign language fluently would ruin anything for anybody when we live in Canada. It's not like I'm ever going to be interested in taking a job in a foreign country (other than the states).

 

[Log4Girlz]

That dude is just rude.

I never understood why not speaking a foreign language fluently would ruin anything for anybody when we live in Canada. It's not like I'm ever going to be interested in taking a job in a foreign country (other than the states).

Hope you learn American

 

[stuminus3]

I don't understand. Why is there a problem with a 4 year old learning a language other than English as their first language? There's no way known they can avoid English once they're in the school system.

1. That's not what I said. Learn as many languages as you want. Knock yourself out!
2. By 4 years old - and be clear, these are born and raised Canadian kids, not immigrants - by 4 years old there's something seriously wrong if your child doesn't even speak the basics either of the official languages of their own country. Most kids have a grasp on the basics by 2. There are actually expectations on what level children are expected to be at by the time they start kindergarten, and these are clearly communicated to parents beforehand. Which leads me to #3...
3. Believe it or not, it's not an elementary school teacher's job to teach your child English just because you chose not to. If anything that's hugely irresponsible because not only is your child way behind the curve on crucial early development (since they're unable to follow the curriculum), they're also detrimental to the whole class. It's not unusual to have like 30 kids in these classes, there just aren't that many hours in the day.

Of course none of this applies to new immigrants who are trying to integrate, and I surely hope the government is doing everything they possibly can to help people in that situation. This is about the families who have Canadian born children who just say "they'll learn English in school anyway lol" with no consideration for what that actually means.

Familial ostracism, marriages that go bad and spousal abuse are not uniquely Muslim problems and I assume the lady in question had access to the same support services as any other Canadian in her circumstances. So why bring up her background?

Yeah, marriages go bad. I'm from a broken home myself. That in itself is obviously not a uniquely Muslim problem. But I've never seen an entire community turn against someone like this. I've never seen people completely ostracise their own flesh and blood grandchildren just because their mother didn't want their father beating them. She has been completely cut off from everything she's ever known for the sin of leaving her husband, regardless of the reason. If this doesn't have anything to do with her cultural background then I apologise, but this sort of patriarchal nonsense surely isn't from the play book of so-called "Canadian" values.

 

[masud]

I love the idea that it's the immigrants fault for not integrating and not the society they're trying to integrate into. Ever notice how white immigrants have no problem integrating even if it takes a generation or two? It's always the brown people that refuse to assimilate...

 

[Llyranor]

I never understood why not speaking a foreign language fluently would ruin anything for anybody when we live in Canada. It's not like I'm ever going to be interested in taking a job in a foreign country (other than the states).

I'm not fluent in my mother tongue (but I get by) and illiterate. Language and culture are pretty intertwined, even if not directly related. Sometimes I'm saddened that a lot of my family's culture/traditions (which I still associate with) will die with me because of that, because I won't be able to pass that on to my future kids, unless I make them attend extracurricular language school. The problem is compounded if it's a multi-language household living in Quebec. I am adamant in my future kids being perfectly bilingual in French and English, but learning two extra languages on top of that seems like a bit too much if language school(s) is required. Well, at least there's the grandparents.

 

[xevis]

By 4 years old - and be clear, these are born and raised Canadian kids, not immigrants - by 4 years old there's something seriously wrong if your child doesn't even speak the basics either of the official languages of their own country.

I don't see anything wrong with multi-lingual parents, regardless of ethnicity, choosing to teach their child a foreign language first with the expectation that they will learn English once they're in the school system and interacting with other kids. If your spouse feels hard-done-by because the kindy she works at enrolled kids despite some internal minimum-English-proficiency policy then she should take that up with the administrators?

Yeah, marriages go bad. I'm from a broken home myself. That in itself is obviously not a uniquely Muslim problem. But I've never seen an entire community turn against someone like this. I've never seen people completely ostracise their own flesh and blood grandchildren just because their mother didn't want their father beating them. She has been completely cut off from everything she's ever known for the sin of leaving her husband, regardless of the reason. If this doesn't have anything to do with her cultural background then I apologise, but this sort of patriarchal nonsense surely isn't from the play book of so-called "Canadian" values.

You're using super divisive language here to argue, on the basis of one anecdote, that this kind of behaviour is representative of Muslim family dynamics. It's not. Domestic violence, including physical and psychological abuse, is a thing in every country, including Canada. None of this shit comes from any "play-book" of idealised cultural values and trying to suggest that it is endemic to believers of the Islamic faith is straight-out racist.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

You're using super divisive language here to argue, on the basis of one anecdote, that this kind of behaviour is representative of Muslim family dynamics. It's not. Domestic violence, including physical and psychological abuse, is a thing in every country, including Canada. None of this shit comes from any "play-book" of idealised cultural values and trying to suggest that it is endemic to believers of the Islamic faith is straight-out racist.

Oh come on. Yes, it's an anecdote, but stuminus isn't saying this is "representative" of all Islam, only that it's a thing that does happen sometimes in some communities where they follow fundamentalist versions of Islam. Denying this is just wilful ignorance at this point.

Here's another anecdote: a friend of mine teaches music in an elementary school in Laval. He once had a young girl (about 11 years old) of Afghan descent in his class who would sing in a choir really well. Then one day she said she wouldn't sing anymore. When he asked why she was evasive, but after gently pressing her with a few questions it turns out... her dad is a fundamentalist who forbade her to sing after he found out (and of course dance and play music). Her home evenings are eating dinner, prayer, homework, and going to bed. They have no TV and no music (except Islamic chanting/prayers), art and games are forbidden, etc. Basically the Taliban.
Now obviously you can't force this dad to raise his daughter in a way he doesn't want to so long as he doesn't break any laws, but I still find that incredibly depressing and oppressive for the poor kid. And even though it's an anecdote and it's obviously not remotely representative of all Muslim immigrants, you can't deny that fundamentalist Islam plays a role here.

 

[xevis]

Oh come on. Yes, it's an anecdote, but stuminus isn't saying this is "representative" of all Islam, only that it's a thing that does happen sometimes in some communities where they follow fundamentalist versions of Islam. Denying this is just wilful ignorance at this point.

To what end?

Fundamentalism exists in every religion and always results in really ugly abuses toward individuals who try to break from established doctrine. Ultra-orthdox Christians, Mormons, Hasidic Jews etc. If the point being made is that fundamentalism is bullshit, then I fully agree. But I don't see any reason to suggest that every Muslim is a fundamentalist or that migrants with an Islamic background should be held to a higher standard or whatever other point stuminus might have been trying to make (badly, I might add).

 

[Azih]

And even though it's an anecdote and it's obviously not remotely representative of all Muslim immigrants, you can't deny that fundamentalist Islam plays a role here.

First off. Thank you for using the qualifier fundamentalist. Being perfectly serious that matters a lot.

Secondly I feel terribly for the girl in your story and am incredibly grateful that my family is nothing like that. But is her situation significantly different from kids with draconian 'Tiger' moms and dads who force their kids to study all the time? Aside from the secular tinge of one and the religious tinge of the other?

Finally the argument has never been that there aren't terrible people that are Muslim or justify their terrible behavior by appealing to religion or culture. The argument has been that encouraging people to view all brown people with suspicion, or all mosque goers with big beards with suspicion is not good. Neither is judging them by unspoken standards that if they fail prove they're not Canadian enough.

 

[stuminus3]

I don't see anything wrong with multi-lingual parents, regardless of ethnicity, choosing to teach their child a foreign language first with the expectation that they will learn English once they're in the school system and interacting with other kids. If your spouse feels hard-done-by because the kindy she works at enrolled kids despite some internal minimum-English-proficiency policy then she should take that up with the administrators?

No offense bud but you seem to be arguing for argument's sake.

 

[xevis]

No offense bud but you seem to be arguing for argument's sake.

So, wait. It's established "fact" that there's "something seriously wrong" with 4 year old Canadians whose first language isn't English or French, right? And attempts to rebut that unassailable position are just arguments for argument's sake?

 

[Llyranor]

I think I didn't speak at all in daycare for the first few months (I must have been 3-4 at the time, I forget) because I didn't know any French at the time, haha. By the start of kindergarten, I was fluent. And learning English was easy just from watching Saturday morning cartoons. Now I'm perfectly bilingual and speak better English than the average Quebecois and better French than the average ROCer. Kids learn pretty fast.

 

[simplayer]

2. By 4 years old - and be clear, these are born and raised Canadian kids, not immigrants - by 4 years old there's something seriously wrong if your child doesn't even speak the basics either of the official languages of their own country. Most kids have a grasp on the basics by 2. There are actually expectations on what level children are expected to be at by the time they start kindergarten, and these are clearly communicated to parents beforehand. Which leads me to #3...

My wife couldn't speak english when she was 4 years old. Her family only spoke cantonese at home.

She spoke perfectly fine english by the time she was in first grade.

I don't see how this is a serious issue. Kids learn language quickly.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

To what end?

Fundamentalism exists in every religion and always results in really ugly abuses toward individuals who try to break from established doctrine. Ultra-orthdox Christians, Mormons, Hasidic Jews etc. If the point being made is that fundamentalism is bullshit, then I fully agree. But I don't see any reason to suggest that every Muslim is a fundamentalist or that migrants with an Islamic background should be held to a higher standard or whatever other point stuminus might have been trying to make (badly, I might add).

I can't speak fully for stuminus, but their point seemed to be that yes, sometimes, external cultural values are incompatible with Canadian, liberal values, and it's not racist to say that -- precisely because, as you said yourself, you can apply the same reasoning to ultra-orthodox values, ultra-fundamentalist Christians, etc. You seem to insist that yes, it's racist because they're using "divisive language" or whatever the hell.

I don't think stuminus said we should extrapolate that to all Muslims or even that there's any clear solution to that, only that it should at least be acknowledged.

First off. Thank you for using the qualifier fundamentalist. Being perfectly serious that matters a lot.

Understood

Secondly I feel terribly for the girl in your story and am incredibly grateful that my family is nothing like that. But is her situation significantly different from kids with draconian 'Tiger' moms and dads who force their kids to study all the time? Aside from the secular tinge of one and the religious tinge of the other?

I'd say so. Religious brainwashing is far more powerful and far more difficult to get out of later in life. The kid who studies all the time because of crazy parents will at least get a good education out of this abuse, if little else (I can't say I've ever heard of such an extreme from the secular side, though, but I'll take your word for it that it's a thing that actually happens sometimes), and thanks to this education, has a better chance to free themselves from this kind of yoke when they get older. A kid raised by such fundies, not so much, unless they are particularly lucky.

Finally the argument has never been that there aren't terrible people that are Muslim or justify their terrible behavior by appealing to religion or culture. The argument has been that encouraging people to view all brown people with suspicion, or all mosque goers with big beards with suspicion is not good.

I don't think anyone here in this thread at least, is saying we should encourage this. At all.

 

[xevis]

I can't speak fully for stuminus, but their point seemed to be that yes, sometimes, external cultural values are incompatible with Canadian, liberal values, and it's not racist to say that -- precisely because, as you said yourself, you can apply the same reasoning to ultra-orthodox values, ultra-fundamentalist Christians, etc.

You seem to insist that yes, it's racist because they're using "divisive language" or whatever the hell.

I don't think stuminus said we should extrapolate that to all Muslims or even that there's any clear solution to that, only that it should at least be acknowledged.

So, a couple of points:

1. I concluded the anecdote is racist because in my opinion it presents a lopsided negative view of a particular minority. Yes the Muslim community has problems with fundamentalists. But so do other communities. The problem is fundamentalism, not Muslims. So why punch down? Especially considering how much unfair hate and bigotry is already aimed at members of the Muslim community for no reason other than existing. For example, this class act from yesterday (in case you missed it).

2. Muslims are not an external culture in Canada. They're a minority culture with more than one million members. They've been around in significant numbers since the 1970s with the vast majority having integrated quite happily with mainstream society. So it's bullshit to suggest that Muslim values are incompatible with Canadian values.

Anyway, I think we agree there is a larger (and perhaps valid) point that could be made here about fundamentalist beliefs vs. western liberal values but in my opinion that point needs to acknowledge that fundamentalists exist and have always existed in the west.

 

[Goon]

This just happened a few hours ago at the University of Calgary:



I'm sure you guys have seen the anti-Sikh poster that went up at the University of Alberta a few weeks back. There's going to be an anti-LGBT poster plastered at MacEwan Univeristy in a few weeks time at this rate.

Its pretty disgusting how people on reddit are defending this poster. Like its clearly hateful towards a group, but the people who defend just do mental gymnastics to avoid calling it islamophobic. It might be worth making a new thread about this.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

2. Muslims are not an external culture in Canada. They're a minority culture with more than one million members. They've been around in significant numbers since the 1970s with the vast majority having integrated quite happily with mainstream society. So it's bullshit to suggest that Muslim values are incompatible with Canadian values.

Good thing I'm not saying that, then!

Good grief, I'm sick of repeating myself. You don't want to address what I actually say, fine, have it your way.

 

[Maximus.]

I love the idea that it's the immigrants fault for not integrating and not the society they're trying to integrate into. Ever notice how white immigrants have no problem integrating even if it takes a generation or two? It's always the brown people that refuse to assimilate...

So you're saying that "brown" people do not assimilate after 1-2 generations? That they stay as if they have just immigrated to Canada? That is a really ignorant comment regardless.

Yes, there are people that choose to embrace their heritage and want to know multiple languages and embrace their own culture as well as the country they live in. Some people take it too far and make sure everyone knows that they are this ethnicity and I assume this is what you are referring to?

In regards to the thread, I think that immigrants should assimilate to the point they can function and mingle with the community effectively. I hate seeing people who live in a country, but make no effort to learn the culture, language or anything. Instead, they decide to create or change the culture of a city and create little pockets where it feels like a different world. I don't think immigrating to another country means lose your heritage, language or culture, but there should be an effort to be able to co-exist and embrace the new cultures as well as the old.

 

[Shaanyboi]

This just happened a few hours ago at the University of Calgary:



I'm sure you guys have seen the anti-Sikh poster that went up at the University of Alberta a few weeks back. There's going to be an anti-LGBT poster plastered at MacEwan Univeristy in a few weeks time at this rate.

Fucking hell.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

This just happened a few hours ago at the University of Calgary:



I'm sure you guys have seen the anti-Sikh poster that went up at the University of Alberta a few weeks back. There's going to be an anti-LGBT poster plastered at MacEwan Univeristy in a few weeks time at this rate.

Yeesh.

I don't get it, why go after Sikhs? I mean Muslims are the "menu du jour" right now for the conservatives, bigots, islamophobes and militant atheists

 

[Kill Your Masters]

What exactly does one have to do to fit more in? Like be part of the system? Assimilate? Eat Putine, drink Tim Hortons, watch Hockey, listen to Celine Dion? Does every non-minority person do this?

Spoiler

Bleach skin would probably help most

 

[ProfessorMoran]

1. That's not what I said. Learn as many languages as you want. Knock yourself out!
2. By 4 years old - and be clear, these are born and raised Canadian kids, not immigrants - by 4 years old there's something seriously wrong if your child doesn't even speak the basics either of the official languages of their own country. Most kids have a grasp on the basics by 2. There are actually expectations on what level children are expected to be at by the time they start kindergarten, and these are clearly communicated to parents beforehand. Which leads me to #3...
3. Believe it or not, it's not an elementary school teacher's job to teach your child English just because you chose not to. If anything that's hugely irresponsible because not only is your child way behind the curve on crucial early development (since they're unable to follow the curriculum), they're also detrimental to the whole class. It's not unusual to have like 30 kids in these classes, there just aren't that many hours in the day.

Of course none of this applies to new immigrants who are trying to integrate, and I surely hope the government is doing everything they possibly can to help people in that situation. This is about the families who have Canadian born children who just say "they'll learn English in school anyway lol" with no consideration for what that actually means.


Yeah, marriages go bad. I'm from a broken home myself. That in itself is obviously not a uniquely Muslim problem. But I've never seen an entire community turn against someone like this. I've never seen people completely ostracise their own flesh and blood grandchildren just because their mother didn't want their father beating them. She has been completely cut off from everything she's ever known for the sin of leaving her husband, regardless of the reason. If this doesn't have anything to do with her cultural background then I apologise, but this sort of patriarchal nonsense surely isn't from the play book of so-called "Canadian" values.

I never understood how some families would deliberately not speak to their children in English at home simply to force them to learn a foreign language first, yes kids learn languages fast but they can and do fall behind when they finally go to jk, especially when other kids are encouraged to speak, read and write at home. Not my problem but they're not helping their kids, that's all.

 

[Llyranor]

I never understood how some families would deliberately not speak to their children in English at home simply to force them to learn a foreign language first, yes kids learn languages fast but they can and do fall behind when they finally go to jk, especially when other kids are encouraged to speak, read and write at home. Not my problem but they're not helping their kids, that's all.

It's probably the main way they will retain their mother tongue. If they don't speak it primarily at home, they are unlikely to keep it. With all the external pressures, friends, school, media all being English, there is plenty of exposure and a powerful assimilating force already. I have a few cousins who can't even speak their mother tongue anymore even if they understand it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's probably the main way they will retain their mother tongue. If they don't speak it primarily at home, they are unlikely to keep it. With all the external pressures, friends, school, media all being English, there is plenty of exposure and a powerful assimilating force already. I have a few cousins who can't even speak their mother tongue anymore even if they understand it.

Does this really matter though? They moved to a new country and will probably stay there the rest of their lives, so the new language there is the most important.

 

[Derwind]

I never understood how some families would deliberately not speak to their children in English at home simply to force them to learn a foreign language first, yes kids learn languages fast but they can and do fall behind when they finally go to jk, especially when other kids are encouraged to speak, read and write at home. Not my problem but they're not helping their kids, that's all.

This is anecdotal but I really want to believe that I'm a special case since my family spoke to me in my native language at home when I was younger and I somehow became fluent in both my native language and English. I really doubt I'm all that special of a case though.

Again, this is anecdotal.

Does this really matter though? They moved to a new country and will probably stay there the rest of their lives, so the new language there is the most important.

It may be important to know the language of the land but you don't need to stop preserving your mother younger because of that.

 

[MissDeviling]

I never understood how some families would deliberately not speak to their children in English at home simply to force them to learn a foreign language first, yes kids learn languages fast but they can and do fall behind when they finally go to jk, especially when other kids are encouraged to speak, read and write at home. Not my problem but they're not helping their kids, that's all.

Unless you're living under a rock with your parents from the moment you step into Canada, you're not going to have trouble picking up English if you're a kid. You're exposed to English every day; the same can't be said for foreign languages.

 

[Angelus Errare]

And even though it's an anecdote and it's obviously not remotely representative of all Muslim immigrants, you can't deny that fundamentalist Islam plays a role here.

But this is an issue with many fundamentalist religions. When I was growing up, I knew white kids who couldn't basically anything because God.

Does this really matter though? They moved to a new country and will probably stay there the rest of their lives, so the new language there is the most important.

They're going to learn the country's language if the only time they hear their native language is their parents. They'll just end up bilingual. Which puts them ahead of everyone else who can only speak 1 language.

 

[xevis]

Good thing I'm not saying that, then!

Good grief, I'm sick of repeating myself. You don't want to address what I actually say, fine, have it your way.

Look, I find you to be a level-headed other poster in other threads and I've tried to engage with you here as genuinely as I can. I think I understand your point and I've tried my best to respond to the issues I think you've raised. Either I'm misreading or you are. Whatever the case, it's obvious we're not getting through to each other.

Anyway, I don't know why you're going to all the trouble to defend what is in my opinion, a poorly constructed and demeaning argument, at best. Maybe you see some merit there that I do not. I respectfully disagree.

Peace.

 

[Sapiens]

I wish certain members of my family would do more to learn english, but you know, I'm not in their head, I don't know what they're thinking.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

They're going to learn the country's language if the only time they hear their native language is their parents. They'll just end up bilingual. Which puts them ahead of everyone else who can only speak 1 language.

Honestly the answer is pretty much that there is no good answer haha. There are so many thought processes that go behind these language decisions I don't think there is a "correct" way to do it. I have a friend who speaks like 5 languages cause he learned them as a kid. In my parents country everyone is bilingual between tribal speech amd english. Lots of African countries speak french in addiion to other languages. Its tough to decide a great method.

I mainly think the most important thing is that kids can eventually communicate in the native tongue. But how you get there really doesn't matter imo. I don't particularly care how far along kids are in Kindergarden though tbh. With how different the development of kids is there just based on age I dont think it is reflective of the long run.

In Kindergarden I could do basically multiplication. It really didn't reflect anything in the long run.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

It's probably the main way they will retain their mother tongue. If they don't speak it primarily at home, they are unlikely to keep it. With all the external pressures, friends, school, media all being English, there is plenty of exposure and a powerful assimilating force already. I have a few cousins who can't even speak their mother tongue anymore even if they understand it.

The issue I think is we have non-English media these days and if you have a child being raised by non-English speaking grandparents and you don't have the child in daycare, he or she might not be exposed to English until jk if the parents who are working during the day are deliberately speaking to the child in the foreign language.

Like I said the kid eventually will learn English at some point. Granted in Toronto you can have schools that are basically non-white and the peer pressure is to engage a group of children of similar ethnic background with the ethnic language.

Frankly people can raise their children the way they want at home (within reason) but my main problem is having people tell me I must have my son learn Chinese when nobody speaks it at home and when even his maternal grandmother is Canadian-born, and I hate the reverse discrimination when I don't give mainland Chinese shit for not speaking English but they think I'm an alien when I don't speak Mandarin. That to me is bullshit.

 

[Derwind]

The issue I think is we have non-English media these days and if you have a child being raised by non-English speaking grandparents and you don't have the child in daycare, he or she might not be exposed to English until jk if the parents who are working during the day are deliberately speaking to the child in the foreign language.

Like I said the kid eventually will learn English at some point. Granted in Toronto you can have schools that are basically non-white and the peer pressure is to engage a group of children of similar ethnic background with the ethnic language.

Frankly people can raise their children the way they want at home (within reason) but my main problem is having people tell me I must have my son learn Chinese when nobody speaks it at home and when even his maternal grandmother is Canadian-born, and I hate the reverse discrimination when I don't give mainland Chinese shit for not speaking English but they think I'm an alien when I don't speak Mandarin. That to me is bullshit.

That sounds to me like people who dont know how to mind their own business. I know this feeling very well my friend and it annoys me as well.

I easily cut people out of my life if they are super judgey.

 

[dluu13]

The issue I think is we have non-English media these days and if you have a child being raised by non-English speaking grandparents and you don't have the child in daycare, he or she might not be exposed to English until jk if the parents who are working during the day are deliberately speaking to the child in the foreign language.

Like I said the kid eventually will learn English at some point. Granted in Toronto you can have schools that are basically non-white and the peer pressure is to engage a group of children of similar ethnic background with the ethnic language.

Frankly people can raise their children the way they want at home (within reason) but my main problem is having people tell me I must have my son learn Chinese when nobody speaks it at home and when even his maternal grandmother is Canadian-born, and I hate the reverse discrimination when I don't give mainland Chinese shit for not speaking English but they think I'm an alien when I don't speak Mandarin. That to me is bullshit.

I don't think kids born in Canada will have much problem with integrating into Canadian society because they'll be spending all their time in school where the teachers will most likely be teaching Canadian culture anyway.

Although I still speak Chinese, I somehow feel that if I have kids in the future, they won't be unless I specifically send them to Chinese lessons and keep diligent in speaking Chinese with them at home. I already see that in some of my younger cousins whose parents both speak way more English than my parents because they immigrated here at a younger age.

 

[Azih]

I'd say so. Religious brainwashing is far more powerful and far more difficult to get out of later in life. The kid who studies all the time because of crazy parents will at least get a good education out of this abuse, if little else (I can't say I've ever heard of such an extreme from the secular side, though, but I'll take your word for it that it's a thing that actually happens sometimes), and thanks to this education, has a better chance to free themselves from this kind of yoke when they get older. A kid raised by such fundies, not so much, unless they are particularly lucky.

There's plenty of stories about kids committing suicide because of not being able to handle the academic pressure being put on them by their parents. And there's the classic "Corporal punishment is good. My parents beat me and I turned out fine. Heck I needed it". Shitty parenting is shitty and is terrible no matter what cultural frill is applied to it.

I don't think anyone here in this thread at least, is saying we should encourage this. At all.

The worry is dog whistling. Bans on head coverings are usually 'not targeting Muslims' either.