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[hussar16]

(I've tried to answer in some detail, so apology for the long post).

First of all DEI is about much more than skin colour or gender.

But in general, we want our company to cast as wide a net as possible. For the factory jobs, why target 50% of the population (men) when we could target 100%?

And yet for a long time we were restricting our potential talent pool to just 50% of the population. Just because of the habit/bias that "blue collor jobs are men's jobs."

There was some sense in that when all the work was manual labour. But in the age of automation that logic doesn't hold up.

To give an example in the opposite example, nursing has tradionally been seen as a "women's job". That can be offputting for the other 50% of the population, so some hospitals are targeting adverts are getting more men interested. This helps broaden their talent pool.



We did a review at my company some years and, while we did find examples of direct racism/sexism, by far the main issue was unconscious bias.

When I joined my company, the entire leadership team in Europe were white men. Even for the business in India, Africa and the Middle East, the leadership team was mostly white men.

We were stuck in a cycle where, by and large, the senior leaders were mentoring, training and promoting people who looked like them / played golf with them / had gone to the same business school as them.

On top of that, there's the issue that having children tends to negatively affect women's careers but not men's careers.

This is not limited to one company.

Its not true anymore, but at one point the biggest UK companies had more CEOs called Peter than CEOs who were women. That doesn't happen if everyone has equal access to development opportunities.


Thank you for being genuine. I hope I've answered your questions.

so the issue here is nepotism and you wan fix it by hiring people that dont look like you. how does that fix it?

 

[Woopah]

so the issue here is nepotism and you wan fix it by hiring people that dont look like you. how does that fix it?

Well you want to get rid of the nepotism/bias. Then the mentoring/promoting/hiring of different types of people comes naturally, since people are diverse.

Diversity is the result of ending nepotism, not the fix for it.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

1 - There are quotas enforced by law in most industries. Not acknowledging this kills any rational discussion. This is factual and can't be argued.

2 - "unconscious bias" is also in the minds of diverse hirers, but in that case, you seem not to care. Anyway, it's something inherent to the human condition so pretending to correct that is just dumb.

3 - "what if two identical candidates..." This is what tells me that you have little corporate experience. Even if the candidates have the same experience and skills, they are never identical. There are many past experiences or personal traits that may fit better in a particular team. Race will never be one of them. However, gender is relevant because men and women don't think or work the same way, regardless of having the same theoretical competence.

I have interviewed and selected hundreds of people and never in my life had to choose between 2 equal candidates. There aren't two people with exactly the same skills and personal traits.

Exactly.

Even if two people have very similar qualifications, education, and are willing to accept the same compensation, they'll never be the same. Right off the bat, the local person will likely have better language skills (written and verbal), vs someone who is a foreigner or grew up in a household where English isnt even the priority language. So right there, one person will likely have a leg up on communication skills if the country were talking about is English based. But it goes for any other country too where there's a different language.

I'd bet a lot of people have trouble getting a good job is simply because their resume is junk. They cant even get called back because if someone doesnt have the communication skills to even do a resume or talk to a recruiter over the phone with their screener interview, of course they will struggle getting a good job. There's only so many open spots. A company will skew to applicants (first blush foot in the door interview, and during the actual interview) who also can carry a conversation having good communications skills. Now if it's some shitty job like picking fruit or sitting on a John Deere and mowing grass for the city, who cares. But for decent level jobs or higher, companies will skew to bright people. And goes for resume to get a first crack at it, and then the interview process.

What DEI supporters want is multifold:

- Focus on DEI hiring, where quotas are acceptable. Even though it's a discriminatory process based on skin deep or gender deep, it's a-ok

- If two people seem the same, hire the minority or women first over the stereotypical white guy. Because the assumption is a non-white guy will add extra productivity boosts. Interestingly, for industries that skew more to women or minorities, you'll never get a single DEI person saying "Ya, lets hire some more white guys so the ratios balance out. There's too many women or minorities in this office or industry".

- Tries to push hiring based purely on a resume where it's easy to compare skills, education and past history. Please avoid anything else part of the hiring process like communication skills, mannerisms and if the person can even answer questions properly

- Ultimately, please hire the female or minority. White guys skew high in jobs and pay because they stick together as bigoted corporate overlords, so give other people a gimme so they can catch up. Oh, but please avoid Asians in the comparison narrative because they technically blow past all whites, blacks and latinos in US and Canada in any job, education and pay surveys. And probably happens in other western countries too.

 

[StueyDuck]

ummm the CEO is hardly gonna come out and agree that the company is in trouble.

it's weird to take either account here as gospel like some are, this is one of those things where we'll soon find out so just wait for the info to be released.

 

[ManaByte]

ummm the CEO is hardly gonna come out and agree that the company is in trouble.

it's weird to take either account here as gospel like some are, this is one of those things where we'll soon find out so just wait for the info to be released.

This is the same YouTuber who makes up absolute bullshit like Yatsuke being deleted from AC: Shadows and Sony execs being shocked at the trailer for GoT2 because it had a woman in it.

 

[StueyDuck]

This is the same YouTuber who makes up absolute bullshit like Yatsuke being deleted from AC: Shadows and Sony execs being shocked at the trailer for GoT2 because it had a woman in it.

unless you literally work for CD projekt. why do you care?

the story might have some truth behind it but probably doesn't, but i also don't trust CDPR for shit either, they are slimy as fuck too.

the financials will always come out and then we'll see.

 

[BattleScar]

3 - "what if two identical candidates..." This is what tells me that you have little corporate experience. Even if the candidates have the same experience and skills, they are never identical. There are many past experiences or personal traits that may fit better in a particular team. Race will never be one of them. However, gender is relevant because men and women don't think or work the same way, regardless of having the same theoretical competence.

Interesting assumption.
I am aware that the hypothetical isn't a real-world situation. But nobody in this thread or indeed anyone who gets mad about DEI really engages with any degree of nuance anyway.
People are indeed shaped by their life experience and past experiences. If you think that people's attributes (e.g, race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, culture) don't affect and shape their life experience, then I dunno what to tell you.

I have interviewed and selected hundreds of people and never in my life had to choose between 2 equal candidates. There aren't two people with exactly the same skills and personal traits.

I'm sure you have.

2 - "unconscious bias" is also in the minds of diverse hirers, but in that case, you seem not to care. Anyway, it's something inherent to the human condition so pretending to correct that is just dumb.

Its not really about "correcting" it. Its being cognizant of it.
Its not fair to all of the amazing candidates out there, whether they're man or woman, white or black, whatever, if you keep hiring the same type of dude because you have a personal affiliation for a certain type of person. As I'm sure you're aware, being someone who has had to do interviewing and hiring, that you don't want the same type of person filling every position in your business. You need people with different characteristics, strengths etc for balance.
Unconscious bias; especially if you are unaware of it, and/or pay it no mind, means that you'll just end up with a bunch of mini-mes and sycophants surrounding you.
Dissent is to some degree always beneficial for business.

 

[ManaByte]

unless you literally work for CD projekt. why do you care?

Because I care about GAF and this site is amplifying a rage grifter who has been making up total bullshit for views. Evilore locked a previous thread based on his videos, but people here see his stuff spread on X or that clickbait site That Park Place and they then believe him to be legitimate when he's been putting out total bullshit. GAF amplifies that and it makes the site look bad for helping spread false information.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

they are not woke, they are weak and losing the narrative.

 

[DeafTourette]

Oh ok, you're just an insane person, thanks for letting me know not to interact with you further.
She's in fact not "black", she's native american

The actress Panam is based on has no Native American heritage... She's part Chinese. And looks Wasian.



I believe The Cockatrice 's point was that the brown skin and the locs and, yes, even the facial features made her look black.

And plenty of black women look similar to the pictures shown of Panam. In case you didn't know that. I know quite a few.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

The actress Panam is based on has no Native American heritage... She's part Chinese. And looks Wasian.

 

[DeafTourette]

Do you hug your mother with that attitude?

 

[ItJustWorks]

If CDPROJEKT is DEI then let them keep it. They are shitting on everyone.

Name me another first person rpg that is doing everything to the degree that Cyberpunk does. Most of these kids grade FROM games on a curve where the damn mouths don't move and the mechanics are 2 gens behind, with no story. Yet FROM has no "DEI". And gets handicap points from the community.

Whereas if Rockstar or CDPR has a diverse staff and their shit looks ambitious and amazing then...wtf are we talking about?

 

[ItJustWorks]

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding that having DEI programmes means you can't hire on merit.

This is not true.

You can have DEI initiatives and always give jobs/promotions to the best person for the job. That's the right approach to take.

That doesn't coincide with the narrative people want to believe that other races other than their own...arent as intelligent or something.

These people want to believe that certain races are lower IQ than their own, and that if they make a game or ...anything it'll be worse than if their race made it.

That's in a nutshell, what this "outrage" implies and is all about. They just have cognitive dissonance about it or will gaslight.

 

[Woopah]

That doesn't coincide with the narrative people want to believe that other races other than their own...arent as intelligent or something.

These people want to believe that certain races are lower IQ than their own, and that if they make a game or ...anything it'll be worse than if their race made it.

That's in a nutshell, what this "outrage" implies and is all about. They just have cognitive dissonance about it or will gaslight.

Yes, it seems to based on the assumption that potential talent must always be concentrated in particular types of people, rather than in all types of people.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

That doesn't coincide with the narrative people want to believe that other races other than their own...arent as intelligent or something.

These people want to believe that certain races are lower IQ than their own, and that if they make a game or ...anything it'll be worse than if their race made it.

That's in a nutshell, what this "outrage" implies and is all about. They just have cognitive dissonance about it or will gaslight.

Not true at all.

People in life want quality products, fair hiring practices, and dont want a product they are interested in pushing political agendas on them.

A lot of games made in Japan get solid review scores and the entire studio making the game overseas is probably 100% Japanese. Name one person who says that is flawed and they should purposely inject some foreigners into the mix to add diversity improving the product. Nobody. A good game is a good game no matter. As long as the employees are good, and like any company hiring more people who have merit and a good attitude and communication skills, thats all people ask for.

Hiring quotas for jobs or school admissions to pander or satisfy government mandates in order to bid on federal contracts goes totally against people getting rewarded for performing.

That would be like purposely giving a kid who deserves an A+ instead a B+ because too many Asians are making it in university, and giving a dumber kid and his B+ artificially improved to an A+ to give him a break to enter so the ratios balance out. How is that fair to Asian kids who scored higher? Similarly, how do you tell a white guy his qualifications and interviews were rock solid, but cant give you the job because there's too many white people in the office or are firefighters already?

How would you tell these people with a straight face you dont qualify despite having the best marks and interviewing? Why is it their fault?

 

[Tajaz2426]

That doesn't coincide with the narrative people want to believe that other races other than their own...arent as intelligent or something.

These people want to believe that certain races are lower IQ than their own, and that if they make a game or ...anything it'll be worse than if their race made it.

That's in a nutshell, what this "outrage" implies and is all about. They just have cognitive dissonance about it or will gaslight.

Talk about people like this, call them racist and bigots.
I love you kind of folks that yell into the ether about others and claim they hate other folks that do not look like they do.

Show me this narrative while folks enjoy eastern games made by other races. This is about as disgusting and low intelligence as one human can get to throw around words like racist with no evidence.

I have never even thought about other races and their intelligence, but you most certainly fit the bill of being a low IQ bitchboy for calling people bigots without even presenting your case with actual raw data.

How completely pathetic can one person be.

Edit: I’m starting to get the feeling that this is how some of you operate. You think throwing around that others are racist and bigots and they believe others have a lower IQ will shut them up.

That isn’t going to work with me at all. I don’t care about your little feelings, I care about evidence to support your theory.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Nobody gives a shit about the actresses' actual ethnicity in a conversation about the ethnicity of the character? I mean, I get it, but at the same time where do you draw the line? If the publisher made that character and then said they were white, or Swedish, or Irish, or Japanese, does that outweigh the actress, how they designed the character, and what I can observe with my own eyes? Because she seems black to me.

Do you hug your mother with that attitude?

I'm on your side with this one. I would have just used a laughing emote in response to this post, but that could be misinterpreted as well.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Nobody gives a shit about the actresses' actual ethnicity in a conversation about the ethnicity of the character?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Talk about people like this, call them racist and bigots.
I love you kind of folks that yell into the ether about others and claim they hate other folks that do not look like they do.

Show me this narrative while folks enjoy eastern games made by other races. This is about as disgusting and low intelligence as human can get to throw around words like racist with no evidence.

I have never even thought about other races and their intelligence, but you most certainly fit the bill of being a low IQ bitchboy for calling people bigots without even presenting your case with actual raw data.

How completely pathetic one person can be.

IMO, people who dont like performance, merit or earning what you get in school or a career are going to skew to people who have a lousy job, lower formal education, broke, and probably can barely make rent payments. They dont like how the economy is skewed to certain people in every country, which is good education and skills = good jobs = good pay. Success! That's why you typically dont get this view from people or families who are doing well. They know it's not luck as if every person with a European background are rich. It takes effort. It's like some people dont like rich people. Why dont you like the guy down the street with a nice house and car? You dont even know them. Well..... they got too much and should pay higher taxes. He's probably a sketchy asshole who scammed people. Nobody needs a Mercedes too. He should get paid less and other people at work should get paid ore to balance it out.

Companies are profit motivated, so they'll naturally push for hiring the best they can within their salary budget because why would any company purposely hire dumbasses? Is it a perfect science? No. Maybe there is a better candidate, but the company prefers to promote from within and give an internal employee a chance. Or someone got a job because they know someone and got an easy interview than blindly applying online. Sure it happens. But nobody can say jobs and money are completely random or skewed to bigotry.

If USA and Canada (and probably other countries too) are so white dude prejudice, then why do Asians do the best? And many of them are foreigners who might not even have the best local communication/native language skills, but they still skew to the best jobs and highest salaries. So not even the white man can keep them down.

 

[LegendOfKage]

I think you mean you don't give a shit, which is an odd stance to take, IMO, especially if you stretch it to its limits. It would be like if an older Rockstar Games producer insisted in an interview that Samuel L Jackson in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas was really supposed to be Hispanic. At a certain point, no, I'm going to believe my eyes over the claims of whatever the developer says. I think most people would. I do see where you're coming from, though, I just don't agree.

 

[Bernardougf]

That doesn't coincide with the narrative people want to believe that other races other than their own...arent as intelligent or something.

These people want to believe that certain races are lower IQ than their own, and that if they make a game or ...anything it'll be worse than if their race made it.

That's in a nutshell, what this "outrage" implies and is all about. They just have cognitive dissonance about it or will gaslight.

Why do you people always go for the strawmaning? Its like embedded in your soy dna ? But please do prove your case.. post a quote from this discussion were anyone said that a certain race has inferior IQ and cant make a good game.

Ill wait .. just bitch screaming racists wont cut it sweetheart

 

[jason10mm]

I could not care less for her.

Both expansion had a better plot just because i didn't waste half game searching for her.

I don't have a problem with female protagonist, but when i play the witcher, i kinda want a man as a protagonist.

I'm pretty sure in the books it was VERY EXPKICIT that only men could endure the concoctions and mutagens during the Trial of Grasses or whatever. It's just a gendered world, much like Wherl of Time or Dune or many other stories.

But you don't see male aes sedai or bene Gesserit for the sake of "inclusion", do you? Why dat be? Like many things in the DEI world, it only goes one way.

 

[ItJustWorks]

Why do you people always go for the strawmaning? Its like embedded in your soy dna ? But please do prove your case.. post a quote from this discussion were anyone said that a certain race has inferior IQ and cant make a good game.

Ill wait .. just bitch screaming racists wont cut it sweetheart

you're the one that's having an emotional reaction to it. But yeah...when you assume a game is bad because of diversity...I mean, what else are you implying? That they are less competent.

When Elon Musk for example, blamed a planes door coming off on a pilot being black..I mean...c'mon. It is what it is. Just because you're in a echo chamber about it and have cognitive dissonance doesnt mean you can deny the obvious.

 

[ItJustWorks]

Talk about people like this, call them racist and bigots.
I love you kind of folks that yell into the ether about others and claim they hate other folks that do not look like they do.

Show me this narrative while folks enjoy eastern games made by other races. This is about as disgusting and low intelligence as one human can get to throw around words like racist with no evidence.

I have never even thought about other races and their intelligence, but you most certainly fit the bill of being a low IQ bitchboy for calling people bigots without even presenting your case with actual raw data.

How completely pathetic can one person be.

Edit: I’m starting to get the feeling that this is how some of you operate. You think throwing around that others are racist and bigots and they believe others have a lower IQ will shut them up.

That isn’t going to work with me at all. I don’t care about your little feelings, I care about evidence to support your theory.

When your first assumption of a games poor quality, is it's "diversity quota"...rather than a numerous amount of other variables that it likely could be, is enough evidence to suggest where your head is at.

Ironically you call for evidence, when most of the people blaming DEI exclusively because a game is bad have no evidence to support that that is the reason or even the primary reason, yet...it's their focus.

When Elon Musk blamed that Boeing planes door falling off on the pilot being black....I mean...you support that kind of stuff? There wasn't a flaw in that logic to you?

I'm sure you won't respond directly to that question.

Yes, it seems to based on the assumption that potential talent must always be concentrated in particular types of people, rather than in all types of people.

Nice to see an intelligent one, that didn't gaslight or demonstrate cognitive dissonance like what I talked about in that post lol

 

[InterMusketeer]

When Elon Musk for example, blamed a planes door coming off on a pilot being black..

When Elon Musk blamed that Boeing planes door falling off on the pilot being black....

You really like that story huh? It has nothing to do with this thread but thanks for sharing it twice anyway. I think we have a clear picture of where your head is at too.

 

[Tajaz2426]

When your first assumption of a games poor quality, is it's "diversity quota"...rather than a numerous amount of other variables that it likely could be, is enough evidence to suggest where your head is at.

Ironically you call for evidence, when most of the people blaming DEI exclusively because a game is bad have no evidence to support that that is the reason or even the primary reason, yet...it's their focus.

When Elon Musk blamed that Boeing planes door falling off on the pilot being black....I mean...you support that kind of stuff? There wasn't a flaw in that logic to you?


Nice to see an intelligent one, that didn't gaslight or demonstrate cognitive dissonance like what I talked about in that post lol

First off you’re not using cognitive dissonance in the right manner. These folks are telling you that their morals are that everyone should be hired from meritocracy. There is nothing to note in their behavior that would go against their or anyone else’s traditional morals or values. There is no reason for them to feel split between their behavior and their belief structure.

You are pushing your self imposed beliefs that people think and care about race, when that is not the issue. The folks who care about race are the ones pushing immutable characteristics as hiring devices that one cannot control nor over come.

I do not care for your anecdotal evidence with this Musk thing as he is one man that can say what he wants and if he makes a racist comment then he is wrong, not the general population that have the same skin color as him. You have shown me no empirical evidence at all to claim people here or anywhere are racists.

The people that push race are the women from SBI telling others to tell publishers and developers if they don’t use them they will use racism, sexual identity against them and hurt their bottom line.

People are blaming the games being bad on DEI because these developers are all over the twitter thing telling everyone they made it gay on purpose, want it to be a DEI game, that white peoples are abhorrent creatures that deserve to die, and the damn list goes on and on. They do not hide their intentions on these games and they deserve what they get in their bottom line. They go around calling people incels, bigots, racists, phones of some type and when their game fails they blame the same people they told to fuck off.

What I am tired of is pea brained people like you that think it is ok to go around and cast a whole people as racists and bigots and just roll on in your everyday life like it was no fucking big deal. I do not go around saying all black people are murderers because they rap about how cool it is in their music do I? I don’t hear anyone else saying that either and lumping a whole people together to try and obfuscate the real answer that these people right along with you are horrible excuses for human beings and you should be damned ashamed of yourself throwing accusations like this around like it is another Tuesday.

I’m done with you and this thread at this point. Good evening.

 

[ItJustWorks]

Not true at all.

People in life want quality products, fair hiring practices, and dont want a product they are interested in pushing political agendas on them.

A lot of games made in Japan get solid review scores and the entire studio making the game overseas is probably 100% Japanese. Name one person who says that is flawed and they should purposely inject some foreigners into the mix to add diversity improving the product. Nobody. A good game is a good game no matter. As long as the employees are good, and like any company hiring more people who have merit and a good attitude and communication skills, thats all people ask for.

Hiring quotas for jobs or school admissions to pander or satisfy government mandates in order to bid on federal contracts goes totally against people getting rewarded for performing.

That would be like purposely giving a kid who deserves an A+ instead a B+ because too many Asians are making it in university, and giving a dumber kid and his B+ artificially improved to an A+ to give him a break to enter so the ratios balance out. How is that fair to Asian kids who scored higher? Similarly, how do you tell a white guy his qualifications and interviews were rock solid, but cant give you the job because there's too many white people in the office or are firefighters already?

How would you tell these people with a straight face you dont qualify despite having the best marks and interviewing? Why is it their fault?

Once again, when diversity quotas is your *first* assumption regarding a games poor quality, rather than the numerous amount of variables as to why that is (like capitalistic practices/motivations for example) it's certainly not a good look. Especially when these people never have direct evidence to suggest that THAT'S why the game was bad, DEI lol

It just exposes where the persons head is at when that's the first thing they jump to.
And let's break the fourth wall here, it's not exactly Japanese or white devs these people usually imply these things about...its usually if its a new woman dev, black person, lgbtq person dev, etc. It is what is. I get it, we'll pretend that's not a thing. It's all good, I can read what room I'm in

 

[ItJustWorks]

First off you’re not using cognitive dissonance in the right manner. These folks are telling you that their morals are that everyone should be hired from meritocracy. There is nothing to note in their behavior that would go against their or anyone else’s traditional morals or values. There is no reason for them to feel split between their behavior and their belief structure.

You are pushing your self imposed beliefs that people think and care about race, when that is not the issue. The folks who care about race are the ones pushing immutable characteristics as hiring devices that one cannot control nor over come.

I do not care for your anecdotal evidence with this Musk thing as he is one man that can say what he wants and if he makes a racist comment then he is wrong, not the general population that have the same skin color as him. You have shown me no empirical evidence at all to claim people here or anywhere are racists.

The people that push race are the women from SBI telling others to tell publishers and developers if they don’t use them they will use racism, sexual identity against them and hurt their bottom line.

People are blaming the games being bad on DEI because these developers are all over the twitter thing telling everyone they made it gay on purpose, want it to be a DEI game, that white peoples are abhorrent creatures that deserve to die, and the damn list goes on and on. They do not hide their intentions on these games and they deserve what they get in their bottom line. They go around calling people incels, bigots, racists, phones of some type and when their game fails they blame the same people they told to fuck off.

What I am tired of is pea brained people like you that think it is ok to go around and cast a whole people as racists and bigots and just roll on in your everyday life like it was no fucking big deal. I do not go around saying all black people are murderers because they rap about how cool it is in their music do I? I don’t hear anyone else saying that either and lumping a whole people together to try and obfuscate the real answer that these people right along with you are horrible excuses for human beings and you should be damned ashamed of yourself throwing accusations like this around like it is another Tuesday.

I’m done with you and this thread at this point. Good evening.

It's exactly like the Elon situation, leaping over other more *likely* variables as to why something happened, to jump to one about race. Clearly you can't contextualize similarities in thought processes.

Ironically, The ones assuming it's about race is...you. If a game is bad, I don't jump to assuming that they must have a "diverse" staff that was hired unmeritedly. I dont even think about that, you do though. So who is really thinking about race and gender? Its you lol you clearly do think abd care about race if that's the first thing you jumped to. And you're getting emotional about it right now because it pertains to you.

 

[ItJustWorks]

You really like that story huh? It has nothing to do with this thread but thanks for sharing it twice anyway. I think we have a clear picture of where your head is at too.

It's a great of example of a similar line of thinking. This is a DEI thread where people are blaming DEI for something that DEI has no evidence of affecting. Highlighting Elon's example (of blaming DEI) demonstrates a similar situation that illustrates the flaw in the logic.

Learn to contextualize please. Stop coding "you must not lean the way we do" as means to act like you have an argument. I get it, you want an echo chamber.

 

[Tajaz2426]

It's exactly like the Elon situation, leaping over other more *likely* variables as to why something happened, to jump to one about race. Clearly you can't contextualize similarities in thought processes.

Ironically, The ones assuming it's about race is...you. If a game is bad, I don't jump to assuming that they must have a "diverse" staff that was hired unmeritedly. I dont even think about that, you do though. So who is really thinking about race and gender? Its you lol you clearly do think abd care about race if that's the first thing you jumped to. And you're getting emotional about it right now because it pertains to you.

Is this real God damn life right now? Of course the DEI aspect is of race and gender because they are all over social media claiming they are doing just that. They have websites dedicated to their hiring processes that have biological assessments as first step process with no qualifications rendered. You don’t even get to the second phase of the hiring process without them considering your gender, sexuality, race, etc. That is what you can see as evidence.

There is no way to contextualize anything in your argument because the developers themselves already stated what they wanted in the game, that it wasn’t made for certain people, that people don’t have to play it and customers obliged and did not purchase it. There is no leaping into another variables as the origin of the problem already stated its existence.

I am blown away for your propensity to have no self awareness that it was you who has been bringing up race, claiming people think other races have lower IQs. At this point we will shut this down as you have no intention of a debate.

The only emotion shown is the fact that it has become normal to slander people and call them whatever you wish without any thought of repercussions.

Again, no evidence to support anything you have said.

 

[ItJustWorks]

Is this real God damn life right now? Of course the DEI aspect is of face and gender because they are all over social media claiming they are doing just that.

There is no way to contextualize anything in your argument because the developers themselves already stated what they wanted in the game, that it wasn’t made for certain people, that people don’t have to play it and customers obliged and did not purchase it. There is no leaping into another variables as the origin of the problem already stated its existence.

I am blown away for your propensity to have no self awareness that it was you who has been bringing up race, claiming people think other races have lower IQs. At this point we will shut this down as you have no intention of a debate.

The only emotion shown is the fact that it has become normal to slander people and calm them whatever you wish without any thought of repercussions.

Again, no evidence to support anything you have said.

This thread is about DEI...so inherently it implies race and gender lol

Blaming a game being "bad" on DEI, has been a general idea in this part of the gaming community. That's obvious, it's happening in this very thread. There is your "evidence".

and again, ironically that is bringing race and gender to a subject that easily can be theorized with numerous other likely variables As to why it turned out "bad". But jumping to DEI first, is definately showcasing race/gender is on your mind.

And it definately implies certain groups are less competent than others. It's not a complex concept...you just don't like what it implies.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This thread is about DEI...so inherently it implies race and gender lol

Blaming a game being "bad" on DEI, has been a general idea in this part of the gaming community. That's obvious, it's happening in this very thread. There is your "evidence".

and again, ironically that is bringing race and gender to a subject that easily can be theorized with numerous other likely variables As to why it turned out "bad". But jumping to DEI first, is definately showcasing race/gender is on your mind.

And it definately implies certain groups are less competent than others. It's not a complex concept...you just don't like what it implies.

And that makes sense.

Because the nature of DEI hires is to purposely pick less qualified people based on demographics than talent. Thats what quota ratio boxes are for. They arent used to categorize people based on skills or talent. They are based on skin deep metrics which can be promoted or submitted to the government in order to qualify for federal bids. So when shit hits the fan, its logical to blame the people first. Is it a guarantee? No, but it's a logical first step.

If you take a car to the shop to get fixed and it's still broken when you get home, you'll blame the mechanic first. Nobody blames the tools or replacement part. A person did the crummy job, so it's on him to prove to the customer it wasnt his fault.

 

[ItJustWorks]

And that makes sense.

Because the nature of DEI hires is to purposely pick less qualified people based on demographics than talent. Thats what quota ratio boxes are for. They arent used to categorize people based on skills or talent. They are based on skin deep metrics which can be promoted or submitted to the government in order to qualify for federal bids. So when shit hits the fan, its logical to blame the people first. Is it a guarantee? No, but it's a logical first step.

If you take a car to the shop to get fixed and it's still broken when you get home, you'll blame the mechanic first. Nobody blames the tools or replacement part. A person did the crummy job, so it's on him to prove to the customer it wasnt his fault.

No it doesn't lol

1. that's a mischaracterization of what DEI actually is, and only works in certain echo chambers as a description. Why do they have to be *less* qualified as an assumption? You told on yourself, implying that by default they would be less qualified, lol you didn't even say "just as qualified, but took the lead based on their race/gender" you proved my point there buddy. Lmao. Lost the debate before it even started.

2. It makes far more sense to look at you know... the director, as well as the late stage capitalistic affects that impact decisions in development and gaming as a whole. DEI has little to do with investors shoe-horning in ideas to make a game a service, or make another open world because that's what sells. And reluctant to take risks or show ambition due to a potential financial loss.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

No it doesn't lol

1. that's a mischaracterization of what DEI actually is, and only works in certain echo chambers as a description. Why do they have to be *less* qualified as an assumption? You told on yourself, implying that by default they would be less qualified, lol you didn't even say "just as qualified, but took the lead based on their race/gender" you proved my point there buddy. Lmao. Lost the debate before it even started.

2. It makes far more sense to look at you know... the director, as well as the late stage capitalistic affects that impact decisions in development and gaming as a whole. DEI has little to do with investors shoe-horning in ideas to make a game a service, or make another open world because that's what sells. And reluctant to take risks or show ambition due to a potential financial loss.

DEI is just that. Filling quota boxes. You can tell by job submissions right off the bat who are and who arent when they ask on the last page what gender and ethnic background you are. They claim it's not used in te job assessment. So if it's not they why ask?

You can disagree with most of us here and thats fine. But a lot of these political products (games and movies) lately made by politically driven wacky people are bombing. Simply a lesson learned. Hire better people and you'll get better games.

If you want to see organizations that are the opposite of DEI it's pro sports teams. They try to pick the best player to fit a role/position at a salary/contract they can afford. You dont get any team checking off boxes comparing demographic splits to get to a ratio %.

 

[ItJustWorks]

DEI is just that. Filling quota boxes. You can tell by job submissions right off the bat who are and who arent when they ask on the last page what gender and ethnic background you are. They claim it's not used in te job assessment. So if it's not they why ask?

You can disagree with most of us here and thats fine. But a lot of these political products (games and movies) lately made by politically driven wacky people are bombing. Simply a lesson learned. Hire better people and you'll get better games.

If you want to see organizations that are the opposite of DEI it's pro sports teams. They try to pick the best player to fit a role/position at a salary/contract they can afford. You dont get any team checking off boxes comparing demographic splits to get to a ratio %.

So you didn't address why you labeled them as "less qualified" pre-emptively lol

Why would they be less qualified? Say their gender or race was an element they were looking for, why would you also assume they are less qualified? You do realize you proved my point when you said that, and essentially lost this back and forth right?

Also, let's not pretend meritocracy truly ever existed. How many jobs hired "that guy was funny in the interview!" Or "that girl will be hot in the office" or "stan is Joey's friend, he's definately gonna start in 2 weeks" so...give me a break. There's a baseline of qualifications, and they typically choose who they fucking "like" from there. You and I both know that.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So you didn't address why you labeled them as "less qualified" pre-emptively lol

Why would they be less qualified? Say their gender or race was an element they were looking for, why would you also assume they are less qualified? You do realize you proved my point when you said that, and essentially lost this back and forth right?

Also, let's not pretend meritocracy truly ever existed. How many jobs hired "that guy was funny in the interview!" Or "that girl will be hot in the office" or "stan is Joey's friend, he's definately gonna start in 2 weeks" so...give me a break. There's a baseline of qualifications, and they typically choose who they fucking "like" from there. You and I both know that.

Relax.

I can tell they are aiming for less qualified people. How? Because HR has a demographic quota % chart they want to fill. If they cared more about performance and merit, who cares what the person looks like. You seem to care. But most people dont. There is no need for a box to check off. Just aim for a solid candidate who fits the budget without worrying about ratios.

When did I say hiring based on merit is perfect. I even said so in post #270. But doing the same thing you do, who says the hot girl isnt qualified or Stan isnt qualified either. Maybe they are the best. Are you assuming hot women and referrals can never qualified? So if they are qualified, hire them if they are within budget and non-resume stuff like communication and answering questions in interviews was solid. Who cares about checking off quota boxes on a clipboard.

But you need to look at the bigger picture.

If a person at home or a company selling stuff wants best chances to succeed, the best way is to aim for best performance within budget. Is it perfect? No. You can have the nicest brainer guy making good money. But then some random high school drop out on YT gets a millions of followers posting stuff in his pajamas. Success isnt linear and absolute. But for best chance of success, you got correlation. Strive for the best you can afford and the person seems like a nice person too.

Like I said in sports above. Sports teams dont do DEI demographic splits. So why would a company or school admissions do it.

 

[Woopah]

And that makes sense.

Because the nature of DEI hires is to purposely pick less qualified people based on demographics than talent. Thats what quota ratio boxes are for. They arent used to categorize people based on skills or talent. They are based on skin deep metrics which can be promoted or submitted to the government in order to qualify for federal bids. So when shit hits the fan, its logical to blame the people first. Is it a guarantee? No, but it's a logical first step.

If you take a car to the shop to get fixed and it's still broken when you get home, you'll blame the mechanic first. Nobody blames the tools or replacement part. A person did the crummy job, so it's on him to prove to the customer it wasnt his fault.

But that isn't the nature of DEI.

My company has a DEI programme. We don't pick based on demographics, we don't have quota boxes and we don't go for federal bids.

From a gaming perspective, I looked at CDPR's and Nintendo's DEI/D&I statements and I didn't see anything about what you're saying.

You're assuming that you can't have both talent and diversity. But you can.

 

[David Ricardo]

you're the one that's having an emotional reaction to it. But yeah...when you assume a game is bad because of diversity...I mean, what else are you implying? That they are less competent.

When Elon Musk for example, blamed a planes door coming off on a pilot being black..I mean...c'mon. It is what it is. Just because you're in a echo chamber about it and have cognitive dissonance doesnt mean you can deny the obvious.

The problem Elon was pointing out is that Boeing is hiring "any black guy" to meet their quotas, even if they are not the most qualified of the available candidates.

If you see pictures of people working on twitter, where Elon fired like 80% of the staff, there are plenty of brown and black people. So his actions show he is not racist. He fired plenty of white people, and kept people of all colors. He will keep the best workers, no matter their skin color. And that´s the problem with Boeing, and the problem with CDPR, they are chosing people based on their skin color instead of their capabilities.

That´s the cancer of DEI. If you just hired the best people, no matter what, nobody would say a thing. But if you hire people based on their sex or their skin color, even though you have better candidates, then we have a problem with it.

Also, it introduces ideological corruption in the workplace. Because if you are the best candidate, and I hire you, you are free to do as you like. But if I hired you when you are not the best candidate, then you owe me and my ideology. You are not there because of your own merits, but because of my beliefs. So I have power over you, because if I fire you, other companies are not going to give you such a good position as I gave you, because you are not qualified for it.

So, yes. DEI makes the workplace worse, introduces corruption, and it´s no surprise games made in those environments make less money or even bomb

 

[PeteBull]

Just wait for their next game/games, guys, cdpr from 2025 and onwards is big global corpo, not grassroots small company that made amazing witcher games.
No1 has problem with black or super degenerate ppl displayed in cp2077, its caricature of future US, aka parody/prediction of what can and will happen coz of all that degenerate western mindset, ofc game set in that time period/area of the world will have plenty of degenerate characters of all kinds and thats perfectly fine, it increases imertion.

Now if they make next witcher similar to this u know its all forced, kinda like that netflix witcher spin off


Once again- remember witcher setting= middleages poland+legends/magic, at least thats how it was in the books/og trilogy of witcher games(2nd expack to w3- blood and whine-was in italy/spain basically ;p).

We are all veteran gamers here, we can quickly recognize how the game gonna look/feel/play if not from its reveal/cgi trailer then at least from its proper gameplay trailers- we will know if next cdpr games are woke long before they launch same way we could smell that shit on concord, new DA:V, SW:O, AC:S and 100 other games.

Edit: nice 31k likes to 183k dislikes ratio on that netflix witcher spin off trailer, u can tell no "modern audience" for that shit either, proof in the yt comments too ;P

 

[kurisu_1974]

Man this guy's posts read like some gaslighting woke AI gone rogue.

 

[GymWolf]

Why do you people always go for the strawmaning? Its like embedded in your soy dna ? But please do prove your case.. post a quote from this discussion were anyone said that a certain race has inferior IQ and cant make a good game.

Ill wait .. just bitch screaming racists wont cut it sweetheart

They have no other way of discussing because in a logic discussion they would be utterly destroyed.

Saying that skin color\gender should not count when you hire someone is indeed a complicate concept to grasp for some people.

 

[FireFly]

You can disagree with most of us here and thats fine. But a lot of these political products (games and movies) lately made by politically driven wacky people are bombing. Simply a lesson learned. Hire better people and you'll get better games.

Most of the post mortems I have seen of failed projects don't make any reference to the "quality" of individual developers, but whether the aims of the project were clearly defined and whether there was a clear feedback mechanism to address issues and propose corrective actions, as well as accountability for final success/failure. In the case of Cyberpunk, the teams were siloed after COVID hit, meaning that the problems with the console versions were not effectively communicated up the chain, and during development there was no "check in" process to ensure they were not getting left behind. Would hiring "better" developers have addressed this, without changing how the team was structured? No.

I would say the ultimate example of hiring the "best" developers is Valve, since they have unlimited money and are not answerable to anyone. Yet nearly all their projects seem to be stuck in an endless development hell, because no one is there apart from Gabe to actually define the scope of a given project and hold people to that. You can also look at 3D Realms who had insanely talented developers that were doing stuff with the Unreal Engine in 1999 that was 5-10 years before its time. Yet DNF turned out to be perhaps the greatest game development failure of all time.

On the other hand a mod team with no game development experience (who wouldn't have been hired by any developer) did an amazing job modernising Half-Life, with Black Mesa, because they had a proper development loop. And there is a mod that is restoring the 2001 version of DNF that already seems to be getting further than 3D Realms did, despite having much less experienced people working on it. If bad quality work is being produced and there is an appropriate feedback mechanism to address it, it's not the end of the world. But if amazing developers are toiling away at something with no proper structure, you end up with DNF. If DNF had been made in today's world, we probably would have people searching through the company photos to find out how many "diverse" people were working there.

 

[InterMusketeer]

It's a great of example of a similar line of thinking. This is a DEI thread where people are blaming DEI for something that DEI has no evidence of affecting. Highlighting Elon's example (of blaming DEI) demonstrates a similar situation that illustrates the flaw in the logic.

You have an entire thread of people making their case, but instead you pull some retarded statement from Musk out of your ass and ask people to react to it. A disingenuous tactic if I ever saw one.

My company has a DEI programme. We don't pick based on demographics, we don't have quota boxes and we don't go for federal bids.

Absolutely wonderful that DEI to you means maternity leave and trying to get women to apply. You made your points that it can be done well, but you must understand more extreme methods exist too. I've seen universities prevent men from applying for jobs. We've seen the sensitivity trainings teaching white people they're inherently racist. We've seen the quotas. You're either playing dumb or intentionally derailing the discussion.

 

[Bernardougf]

you're the one that's having an emotional reaction to it. But yeah...when you assume a game is bad because of diversity...I mean, what else are you implying? That they are less competent.

When Elon Musk for example, blamed a planes door coming off on a pilot being black..I mean...c'mon. It is what it is. Just because you're in a echo chamber about it and have cognitive dissonance doesnt mean you can deny the obvious.

No ...again.. just conjuring your sick inner toughts of others and the society dosent cut it .. proove it .. you said something very specific and called everybody racist... so post just ONE quote in this 7 page discussion that shows anybody saying something like you just said "the door camed out of the plane because the pilot was black" .. in this case any quote that shows anybody saying that X or Y race or gender has LOW IQ and CANT make good games ...thats exactly what you said so post your receipt for your accusation or shut the fuck up and crawl back to the purple wormhole you came from.

 

[Woopah]

You have an entire thread of people making their case, but instead you pull some retarded statement from Musk out of your ass and ask people to react to it. A disingenuous tactic if I ever saw one.


Absolutely wonderful that DEI to you means maternity leave and trying to get women to apply. You made your points that it can be done well, but you must understand more extreme methods exist too. I've seen universities prevent men from applying for jobs. We've seen the sensitivity trainings teaching white people they're inherently racist. We've seen the quotas. You're either playing dumb or intentionally derailing the discussion.

It does indeed happen. Im not denying that.

But my point is that people shouldn't assume that all companies do DEI the same way.

Some of our people went to a meeting on gender DEI last month with a whole bunch of other companies. I just looked at the summary / recommended actions from that and there was nothing in there about quotas.

This particular thread is about CDPR. I read their DEI strategy and again, nothing about quotas. I didn't read anything there that would prevent CDPR from being a meritocracy.

That's why I disagree with the phrase "the nature of DEI hires is to purposely pick less qualified people based on demographics".

 

[InterMusketeer]

This particular thread is about CDPR. I read their DEI strategy and again, nothing about quotas. I didn't read anything there that would prevent CDPR from being a meritocracy.

I don't see anything like that either, but I think the discussion has moved beyond that anyway.

That's why I disagree with the phrase "the nature of DEI hires is to purposely pick less qualified people based on demographics".

Because this is an entirely different statement already. What are "DEI hires"? Perhaps this is just a discussion about definitions, but I assume they're people who were hired specifically to "improve diversity." So I would agree with that statement. Meritocracy takes a backseat when a potential employee's identity is deemed more or as important as their actual credentials. Seems completely logical to me.

 

[ItJustWorks]

No ...again.. just conjuring your sick inner toughts of others and the society dosent cut it .. proove it .. you said something very specific and called everybody racist... so post just ONE quote in this 7 page discussion that shows anybody saying something like you just said "the door camed out of the plane because the pilot was black" .. in this case any quote that shows anybody saying that X or Y race or gender has LOW IQ and CANT make good games ...thats exactly what you said so post your receipt for your accusation or shut the fuck up and crawl back to the purple wormhole you came from.

Look how hostile you are becoming, it's almost as if I called you out specifically or something lol and assuming my entire politics if I don't align on one issue? You enjoy an echo chamber my dear friend. This isn't a sports team.

Anyway, it's extremely simple. When your assumption that anything that is low quality primarily derives from "diversity initiatives", and that they are likely "less qualified" with no evidence to back this claim, and leapfrogging other more *likely* variables for why a game is bad. That is exactly like elon blaming the planes door coming off because of DEI (and assuming that pilot is DEI because of her race and gender). There is literally no difference.

Something went wrong, your first assumption is that the "diverse groups" are less qualified to be doing the job. Much of the time looking at a woman or a person of color and assuming they are DEI. So less qualified than...who exactly? Yes, that looks bad. That looks like you think certain groups are less competent than your own. Sorry to break it to you.

Now how about present some evidence that DEI is to blame for a game being bad.

You have an entire thread of people making their case, but instead you pull some retarded statement from Musk out of your ass and ask people to react to it. A disingenuous tactic if I ever saw one.

And I made my case, saying alot more than only utilizing an *appropriate* Elon example. Like how the logic is generally flawed. You just don't like it because that example coincides with the thought process, and how that makes the "I blame DEI" people look. But hey, it's the same shit lol Notice nobody even denounced that type of assumption or differentiated their ideas from Elon. They just got upset and called names...

 

[Bernardougf]

Look how hostile you are becoming, it's almost as if I called you out specifically or something lol and assuming my entire politics if I don't align on one issue? You enjoy an echo chamber my dear friend. This isn't a sports team.

Anyway, it's extremely simple. When your assumption that anything that is low quality primarily derives from "diversity initiatives", and that they are likely "less qualified" with no evidence to back this claim, and leapfrogging other more *likely* variables for why a game is bad. That is exactly like elon blaming the planes door coming off because of DEI (and assuming that pilot is DEI because of her race and gender). There is literally no difference.

Something went wrong, your first assumption is that the "diverse groups" are less qualified to be doing the job. Much of the time looking at a woman or a person of color and assuming they are DEI. So less qualified than...who exactly? Yes, that looks bad. That looks like you think certain groups are less competent than your own. Sorry to break it to you.

Now how about present some evidence that DEI is to blame for a game being bad.



And I made my case, saying alot more than only utilizing an *appropriate* Elon example. Like how the logic is generally flawed. You just don't like it because that example coincides with the thought process, and how that makes the "I blame DEI" people look. But hey, it's the same shit lol Notice nobody even denounced that type of assumption or differentiated their ideas from Elon. They just got upset and called names...

No ... you cant try to have a discussion now ... you lost your chance.. you called everybody racist... proove your accusations with quotes... or get lost. No two ways about it when you make direct accusations. Or keep digging your whole.

 

[ItJustWorks]

No ... you cant try to have a discussion now ... you lost your chance.. you called everybody racist... proove your accusations with quotes... or get lost. No two ways about it when you make direct accusations. Or keep digging your whowhole

Notice how I never actually said the words "racist" in this thread, but that's okay, because you are using the subtext of my words to draw that conclusion correct? Well, I can do the same...I can use the subtext of the "that woman/black person is probably DEI" or "the game is bad because of Diversity hires" to conclude that you think those groups are somehow generally less competent or lower IQ.

And who is "everyone"? Everyone here shares the same opinions? You speak as if I specifically said "all of you neogaf members" nope. I said that people who blame DEI for a game being bad prior to all other variables, and assume a woman or a person of color is DEI by the nature of them being there, are basically assuming they are less competent and qualified by default.

Are you telling me that is you? That you blame DEI games being bad? Is that why you're offended? Because it certainly doesn't look good.

This was an irrational response. I gave my input and expanded on that conclusion. You have yet to retort, or even engage with the concept of it being a logical fallacy.