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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
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jdogmoney said:
It has been described to me that Allah can change his mind. This accounts for apparent contradictions in the Quran or other spiritual books (not sure on that point), so that the last tenant written overrides the earlier tenant.
The Christian God does not change his mind, meaning that what is declared true...remains true.
That is a huge difference in character if this is true of Allah.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Again, it's not the world view I have difficulty understanding--in an academic way I do. What I don't understand is the concept that religious people honestly believe that there is a god and that their spirit will spend eternity in paradise when they die. It was something that struck me years ago when I was talking with a friend of mine who was "concerned for my eternal spirit"; I had never really considered just how fervently they believed in the concept of the soul and heaven, I had always thought it had been lip service.TaeOH said:
Basically, to hear someone say "I can't wait to find out what Heaven is like." is deeply disturbing to me.
To consider your question though, if there were a god I don't think I'd behave any differently, my morals are based on what my parents taught me and how I think others should be treated. Considering the gamut of morals that religious people actually run I'm sure I fall in the range. Maybe the only difference would be "It's a beautiful day today" becoming "Thank God for this beautiful day today." But I'm already appreciative of life, I don't need to thank somebody for every nice thing that happens.
Yes, I do take the hackneyed "Well evolution is just as much faith-based as religion" argument as offensive and I'd rather not bring it up since it's like to start a massive derail.
bonesmccoy said:
There is a huge gulf between taking what a role model, say, my father says at face value and what a book says about a spirit in the sky telling me what to do. Anyway that avoids the issue; I can understand someone following the teachings, I can't understand someone actually believing that there is a "God in Heaven".
Dave Inc. said:
Fair enough. These are fundamental differences in the way we view the world. I am ok with that and not disturbed by you at all. Likely if I was the friend who was concerned with your eternal soul, I would continue to engage you in the conversation as long as it did not jeopardize the friendship, but this is just a polite discourse between strangers on an internet board. I find no reason to disturb you further with my world view.
I mentioned my two friends in HS, we always talked about faith. The atheist became a Christian, mainly due to seeing his mortality, but I think some of it was our conversations. My Jewish friend still has his views in tact, although they were always morphing to answer new questions. His parents still go to temple, his sister married a Catholic and both of them apparently became born again, and he married a Muslim, although I do not believe she is orthodox since she married a Jew. He is bringing his children up to understand both parents faiths. We do not talk religion anymore mainly because we are just not as close as we once were. Our get togethers are usually spent just catching up on life.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
TaeOH said:
Don't worry, you were only disturbing me a little.
I guess it's one of those things I just won't "get" and I'll have to live with scratching my head at you guys, but I do appreciate you being polite even if I got a little snide. Thanks.
And that friendship was never jeopardized, by the by, I knew he was saying what he was because he a genuinely good person and was concerned for his friend--even if I thought his concerns were misplaced.
Eh, what about the whole NT versus OT?TaeOH said:
Also a reminder to everyone interested in the OMMD-system, we haven't gotten any public mentors yet so if anyone would volunteer then do say so:
_____________________________
The OMMD-system
Open Minded Mentor/Doubter-system
Mentors send an anonymous PM to me detailing their past experiences with the de-conversion process and get listed on a secret list of mentors if they wish to remain anonymous or they can openly volunteer to be a mentor in this thread or a new one if we go for that.
Doubters either send an anonymous PM to me and detail their particular circumstances if they so wish to so that I can then pair them up with a mentor or they can directly PM an open volunteer that will help them through with their doubts without trying to re-enforce their beliefs.
_____________________________
Publicly listed Mentors:
_____________________________
Meus Renaissance
Member
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
Are Christians, particularly Catholics, ignoring this commandment?
I personally don't due to all the NT scriptures clearly condemning the practice.Meus Renaissance said:
I never quite understood how this was reconciled except by means of the "Great Compromise" (My description) that occurred in Christian faiths in the early centuries to match up with other religions that had prominent idol worship.
Christian Doctrine supplants OT since it is something better than what a physical nation can provide. Basically, a lot of the OT has no meaning for us at all beyond principles learned from the various laws and commandments. After all, God's opinion didn't change just what he enforced it on. So we can ignore a lot of stuff like dietary or circumcision, but not matters that involve false worship since those are carried over to the NT anyway.Beowulf28 said:
The OT is good in that it oftens defines more fully what is decribed vaguely in the NT and Christians in the NT still referred to those guidelines. However, the NT has a few scriptures that condemn/discourage the use of idols too.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
Corinthians Chapter 11, verse 5-6
Amish women cover their hair, and in the recent documentary involving the Westboro Baptist Church there are scenes where the women also cover their hair when in Church. But this is rare to see. Has anyone enquired as to why it is not more common practice?
There may be confusion between prophesying, ministering, and being an ovrseer in the congregation. The context deals with church matters so a woman would need to wear a head covering phophesying (like a preacher or reverend) before the church- basocally when she's taking a leadership role. She basically takes the place of the man but still must acknowledge she's a woman in the role.Meus Renaissance said:
Happens often. I imagine most of them are actually agnostic, but it's not unusual to get disillusioned with religion due to some perceived/legitimate unfairness or injustice or during the college years and then coming back to it or finding another religion in moments of clarity.PortTwo said:
Also, there are lands that were considered atheistic or had little contact with religion that saw growth after missionaries of one type or another went in.
I do agree that I've never heard of the more militant types that actually hate religion (Most I've met in person do not) ever becoming religious.
Meus Renaissance
Member
JGS said:
"Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth.."
It appears to be encompassing both examples in that verse, however.
mclaren777
Member
I'm enjoying your contributions to this thread. Please keep it up!Game Analyst said:
Within the church I agree I was just leaving out some of the examples in the verse. I don't think this applies to personal prayer, but involves what a woman can do before a congregation.Meus Renaissance said:
When Christianity was growing, it would stand to reason that women took the message very well. No matter how it's sliced, women were highly thought of in Christianity, sharing the exact same rewards for faith, and it would not be unusual to see women overseers in a congregation that either lacked men or where men didn't really want the job.
Paul is bringing clarification to the matter. Paul is saying that the man is to head the congregation unless there are none. In that case, a woman could do so but with a head covering. If they aren't preaching, I'm not sure why a woman would need to wear a head covering just sitting in the pews.
Meus Renaissance
Member
JGS said:
Yes, that verse is referring to within a Church. Verse 14-16, however states: "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." This sense of covering your hair outside the church (on the basis of 'even nature itself' suggesting day to day) is echoed in Genesis 24, verse 62 to 65.
"Now Isaac had come from Beer Lahai Roi, for he was living in the Negev. 63 He went out to the field one evening to meditate,[f] and as he looked up, he saw camels approaching. 64 Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel 65 and asked the servant, Who is that man in the field coming to meet us? He is my master, the servant answered. So she took her veil and covered herself."
So there seems to be a precedence for covering of the hair outside the role of prophesying as you alluded to. The Jewish and Islamic faith tend acknowledge this. So back to the original verse, when all considered, it seems to reiterate that in addition to also stating that a woman should cover her hair when taking the man's role in Church, but also when praying. You suggested that the requirement to cover the hair for a woman is only when she takes up the male role of prophesying in Church, even though Paul states: "Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head". So men cannot cover their hair when prophesying, yet the only time - as its being suggested - women are required to is when they take that role?
I'm not convinced. For the sake of argument, let's say the following is right. Women are required to cover their head outside the Church in general. Paul then says if a woman is praying and/or prophesying, when a man is not, she must not confuse it as a scenario where she longer is required to cover her hair as men are commanded not to, therefore she must wear it regardless even in that role. It makes more sense if its a reiteration of a previous understanding rather than invoking it randomly for this particular role - a role that in itself does not accept her to be covered.
Well, the example of Rebeckah you gave predates Judaism & Christianity, so it was a cultural thing. However, it backs up 1 Corinthians point about respecting authority of position. She didn't cover her head for the servant, only the master even though both were men and she spoke to both of them. In the Christian church, the man has the authority to oversee the church, so a head covering would recognize this when necessary.Meus Renaissance said:
Now I'm not saying that a woman can or can't cover her head whenever she feels like, I'm just stating that it wasn't a requirement just because a man was present. I was tied specifically to worship, but culturally it also was not unusual to do so.
The verse in context is speaking of the congregation, so it makes little sense to discuss the role of prohesying in the congregation and then switching to a more universal view of covering the head at all times for prayer- especially since prophesying (or preachng) was not limited to congregation roles in the early church so much more so when discussing the more common practice of prayer to God.
The verses in Corinthians would make little sense in universal practice since as you stated, nature takes care of the head covering so there's no reason for a second one even when worshipping in private. It's about authority and everyone acknowledging their role in the organization. When they change that role by necessity, there needs to be an acknowledgement of that change and the head covering does that. However, that has nothing to do with simple worship since women worship God in the same manner as men and are rewarded as such. They are expected to pray, to preach to the public, to do good works, & to share in having a happy family. In return they would receive everlasting life/heaven, have their sins erased, some would rule as kings, and have equal fellowship with their fellow worshippers.
To me, it's kind of the difference between human rights and job titles. Everyone can have the same freedoms even if we all can't have the same position. A VP can never be the CEO unless the CEO can't carry out the duties for one reason or another. There is acknolwedgement of one kind or another of the fact that a change has been temporarily made. That is the head covering.
The interesting thing is it's not done for men since, quite frankly, many of us don't want to head anything, but for the angels who like to see how well God's arrangement of things work. After all, they had their own problems to deal with so it was important for them to see how the congregation operates correctly with us lesser imperfect beings dying to do our own thing, but adhering to God's standards despite this.
I'm not sure if this gets to your issue though since I ramble.
Meus Renaissance
Member
JGS said:
Meus Renaissance
Member
In regards to the question I asked above previously, I spoke to a local Father (well two) about it just now and he explained that as the revelation came before Christ, it isn't now adopted. He stated that after God manifested himself as man, there was no risk in depicting him in art and so on whereas the Commandment was to prevent idolatrous worship of false representations of God. However, he insisted that the Commandment only refers to divine beings and not living beings in general which I found strange. He also said that Catholics do not pray towards depictions of Christ or the Holy Mother, but rather direct their devotion to them.
Towards the beginning, the servant is mentioned as "him" or "he" as he's preparing for the task of finding a bride for Isaac.Meus Renaissance said:
As long as they personally don't mind, I have no problems with it. However, I do have problems with adding burdens to what is required. The whole headship thing is a tough pill to swallow already, so to add a requirement to be covered much of the time could be a discouragement.Meus Renaissance said:
So to me anything that could discourage beyond doctrine should not be necessarily encouraged. On the other hand, I don't think women who are wanting to where them should be discouraged either which is why I disagree with how some countries view Muslim headdress since many women want to wear them.
Meus Renaissance
Member
JGS said:
*facepalm*
As long as they personally don't mind, I have no problems with it. However, I do have problems with adding burdens to what is required. The whole headship thing is a tough pill to swallow already, so to add a requirement to be covered much of the time could be a discouragement.
So to me anything that could discourage beyond doctrine should not be necessarily encouraged. On the other hand, I don't think women who are wanting to where them should be discouraged either which is why I disagree with how some countries view Muslim headdress since many women want to wear them.[/QUOTE]
Okay
Herpes Reasons
Banned
pretty sure i can find character traits between God and dalai lama, but it doesn't make them the same. i think the burden of proof is on the muslim side to show why their alah is the same God that christians/jews worship.jdogmoney said:
Shanadeus said:
wow you are on a mission. Good luck with that.
and to answer the bolded. From genesis to revelations, there always has been prophetic signature of a coming Messiah (both political/kingly and priestly). So no, God isn't changing his mind. He's keeping the promises of his inspired words.
classic case of sugar coating shit. its still shit. no matter how catholics spin their views on devotions to dead people, its still idolatry.Meus Renaissance said:
Chaplain
Member
Christianity and the Tooth Fairy: A UCLA law professor questions an Oxford mathematician on the claims of Jesus
John Lennox, Daniel Lowenstein
University of California, Los Angeles
6 April 2011
Children believe in the tooth fairy until their reasoning capabilities mature and they recognize this belief is neither grounded nor relevant. Does belief in Jesus Christ require a suspension of logic? Can Christianity be proven to be true? UCLA law professor Daniel Lowenstein interviews Oxford mathematician John Lennox with honest questions about Christianity and the grounds for faith. This will be followed by audience Q&A.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22142192
John Lennox, Daniel Lowenstein
University of California, Los Angeles
6 April 2011
Children believe in the tooth fairy until their reasoning capabilities mature and they recognize this belief is neither grounded nor relevant. Does belief in Jesus Christ require a suspension of logic? Can Christianity be proven to be true? UCLA law professor Daniel Lowenstein interviews Oxford mathematician John Lennox with honest questions about Christianity and the grounds for faith. This will be followed by audience Q&A.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22142192
Chaplain
Member
Allot of new lectures have been added. Here are some of them:
Three Religions: Same Contradictory God?
Miroslav Volf, Shakiel Humayun, Leonard Levin
Columbia University 2011 (4-3-11)
Christians speak of Jesus love, Jews of Gods goodness, and Muslims of Allahs mercy, yet each of these religions also hold sacred verses that speak of Gods eternal judgment and punishment. So, is God loving or hateful? Listen to a moderated discussion among three theologians who will wrestle with this contradiction.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/21893746
When Tolerance is Not Enough: Exploring the Myths and Challenges of Religious Pluralism
Brown University 2011 (4-11-11)
Pluralism: it's not just tolerance, cannot be relativism, and isn't exactly multiculturalism. So what is religious pluralism? Join the conversation between Vinoth Ramachandra, Secretary for Social Engagement & Dialogue with IFES Southeast Asia, and Prof. Nathaniel Berman of Brown's Watson Institute, moderated by Brown biology professor Kenneth Miller.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22235164
God and Stephen Hawking
Oxford Professor John Lennox
University of California, Los Angeles 2011 (4-15-11)
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22469051
Axioms and Inferences: A Mathematician Thinks About Faith
Stanford University 2011 (4-13-11)
Throughout history, ideas have come and gone, religions have emerged and faded, and intellectual movements have thrived only to be later supplanted. Surveying this legacy, the question arises: what, if anything, is worth believing in? Come find out as Oxford mathematician and Christian thinker John Lennox gives his answer, drawing from his experiences with atheism and theism in Eastern Europe. The forum will be moderated by Ray F. Cowan, Research Scientist at the Laboratory for Nuclear Science, M.I.T. and Stanford Linear Accelerator Center.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22289881
Science and Religion: Where the Real Conflict Lies
Mayo Clinic 2009
As a philosopher of Religion and Science, Alvin Plantinga argues that two confusions lie at the heart of much of the debate between science and religion. First, is the confusion concerning unguided evolution and evolution, and second, is the confusion between scientific secularism and secularism with respect to science.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/21556087
The Role of God in Social Justice
University of Tennessee - Knoxville 2009
Video link: http://vimeo.com/21135533
God, Government or Me: Who Determines Moral Good?
Tulane University 2010
Video link: http://vimeo.com/20997071
God, Math and the Multiverse
Satyan Devadoss
Caltech, 2011
Is our sense of design an anthropic accident of the evolution of our minds, out of the same multiverse as in Dr. Stephen Hawking's "The Grand Design"? What does a mathematician have to add about the problem of origins, God, and the multiverse?
The Veritas Forum at Caltech with be hosting Dr. Satyan Devadoss, associate professor of math at Williams College, to lecture about these questions and his personal experiences.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/20792390
Science and Faith: Equal Sources of Knowledge?
Ian Hutchinson
University of Arizona, 2011
Are science and faith necessarily exclusive? Are science and faith truly belligerents or brothers?
Video link: http://vimeo.com/20754370
Altruism In Evolution: A Christian and Non-Theist Discuss
Jeffrey P. Schloss, John Tooby
Cal Poly San Luis Obispo 2011
Video link: http://vimeo.com/18934234
Three Religions: Same Contradictory God?
Miroslav Volf, Shakiel Humayun, Leonard Levin
Columbia University 2011 (4-3-11)
Christians speak of Jesus love, Jews of Gods goodness, and Muslims of Allahs mercy, yet each of these religions also hold sacred verses that speak of Gods eternal judgment and punishment. So, is God loving or hateful? Listen to a moderated discussion among three theologians who will wrestle with this contradiction.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/21893746
When Tolerance is Not Enough: Exploring the Myths and Challenges of Religious Pluralism
Brown University 2011 (4-11-11)
Pluralism: it's not just tolerance, cannot be relativism, and isn't exactly multiculturalism. So what is religious pluralism? Join the conversation between Vinoth Ramachandra, Secretary for Social Engagement & Dialogue with IFES Southeast Asia, and Prof. Nathaniel Berman of Brown's Watson Institute, moderated by Brown biology professor Kenneth Miller.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22235164
God and Stephen Hawking
Oxford Professor John Lennox
University of California, Los Angeles 2011 (4-15-11)
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22469051
Axioms and Inferences: A Mathematician Thinks About Faith
Stanford University 2011 (4-13-11)
Throughout history, ideas have come and gone, religions have emerged and faded, and intellectual movements have thrived only to be later supplanted. Surveying this legacy, the question arises: what, if anything, is worth believing in? Come find out as Oxford mathematician and Christian thinker John Lennox gives his answer, drawing from his experiences with atheism and theism in Eastern Europe. The forum will be moderated by Ray F. Cowan, Research Scientist at the Laboratory for Nuclear Science, M.I.T. and Stanford Linear Accelerator Center.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/22289881
Science and Religion: Where the Real Conflict Lies
Mayo Clinic 2009
As a philosopher of Religion and Science, Alvin Plantinga argues that two confusions lie at the heart of much of the debate between science and religion. First, is the confusion concerning unguided evolution and evolution, and second, is the confusion between scientific secularism and secularism with respect to science.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/21556087
The Role of God in Social Justice
University of Tennessee - Knoxville 2009
Video link: http://vimeo.com/21135533
God, Government or Me: Who Determines Moral Good?
Tulane University 2010
Video link: http://vimeo.com/20997071
God, Math and the Multiverse
Satyan Devadoss
Caltech, 2011
Is our sense of design an anthropic accident of the evolution of our minds, out of the same multiverse as in Dr. Stephen Hawking's "The Grand Design"? What does a mathematician have to add about the problem of origins, God, and the multiverse?
The Veritas Forum at Caltech with be hosting Dr. Satyan Devadoss, associate professor of math at Williams College, to lecture about these questions and his personal experiences.
Video link: http://vimeo.com/20792390
Science and Faith: Equal Sources of Knowledge?
Ian Hutchinson
University of Arizona, 2011
Are science and faith necessarily exclusive? Are science and faith truly belligerents or brothers?
Video link: http://vimeo.com/20754370
Altruism In Evolution: A Christian and Non-Theist Discuss
Jeffrey P. Schloss, John Tooby
Cal Poly San Luis Obispo 2011
Video link: http://vimeo.com/18934234
Meus Renaissance
Member
I wanted to pose a philosophical question in regards to the reason of creation. The fundamental reason for the creation of mankind was to obey God and the giving of free will, best illustrated in the story of the Garden of Eden, allows us the capacity to choose our own path and whether we worship God as commanded.
Aside from being all-powerful, God is also omniscient and through Biblical accounts that pre-date Christianity, we see Him speak of his design. But this also inevitably means that God knew of all events, acts and thoughts that would occur every second of existence from before He made even light. This means He knew of the choices we'd make and therefore our fate - this before our inception.
Furthermore, if we focus on the design - we recognise every event, certainly the significant ones, as acts of Gods. If X had an experience that drew him towards spirituality, we praise God for showing X this path. However, if Y loses their entire family in an emotionally horrific manner and as a consequence loses faith in God, then those events were not only also designed by God but as He is omniscient, He knew of the impact it would have. So can't it be said that God is not only aware of the end-result, but also able to choose who worships him and who does not?
Aside from being all-powerful, God is also omniscient and through Biblical accounts that pre-date Christianity, we see Him speak of his design. But this also inevitably means that God knew of all events, acts and thoughts that would occur every second of existence from before He made even light. This means He knew of the choices we'd make and therefore our fate - this before our inception.
Furthermore, if we focus on the design - we recognise every event, certainly the significant ones, as acts of Gods. If X had an experience that drew him towards spirituality, we praise God for showing X this path. However, if Y loses their entire family in an emotionally horrific manner and as a consequence loses faith in God, then those events were not only also designed by God but as He is omniscient, He knew of the impact it would have. So can't it be said that God is not only aware of the end-result, but also able to choose who worships him and who does not?
This is flawed. The Qur'an makes prophecies left and right, and consistently. In fact, about half of the Qur'an is concerned with declaring prophecies.Game Analyst said:Here is a quick comparison:
Also, when the Qu'ran talks about the disciples being "Muslims" it means the literal sense of the word. To be a "muslim" is to "submit" to god.
Even linguistically speaking, the disciples wouldn't tell you they were Christians. Hardly, because they have never even heard of the word "christ". However, they would not object to submitting themselves to god, if you asked them whether that was part of their religion.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
Hi... good morning!
Well... I know that I haven't had a lot of participation in this thread (even though I'm the OP)... I just want to say that I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus died for our sins.
But, even though I'm a believer, I didn't consider myself a born again Christian. And I think this thread is helping me with that. When I created this thread, I wanted to hear all your opinions, testimonies... I wanted to create a Christianty thread for us GAF'ers...
But then, after reading so any comments, I realized that I didn't know anything. So, I started to go to the Church again. I'm even taking some lessons. Since this thread started I have been going to the Church every Sunday from 10:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. and if everything goes right, I'm going to get baptized!
I still don't feel with enough confidence to start debating, but at least I understand things a lot better now. I can read some of the responses here, and I can see which responses are based on ignorance, or which responses are just plain wrong.
Anyway... I hope I can start writing what I have learned pretty soon...
Just be happy for me. I'm going to get baptized!
Well... I know that I haven't had a lot of participation in this thread (even though I'm the OP)... I just want to say that I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus died for our sins.
But, even though I'm a believer, I didn't consider myself a born again Christian. And I think this thread is helping me with that. When I created this thread, I wanted to hear all your opinions, testimonies... I wanted to create a Christianty thread for us GAF'ers...
But then, after reading so any comments, I realized that I didn't know anything. So, I started to go to the Church again. I'm even taking some lessons. Since this thread started I have been going to the Church every Sunday from 10:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. and if everything goes right, I'm going to get baptized!
I still don't feel with enough confidence to start debating, but at least I understand things a lot better now. I can read some of the responses here, and I can see which responses are based on ignorance, or which responses are just plain wrong.
Anyway... I hope I can start writing what I have learned pretty soon...
Just be happy for me. I'm going to get baptized!
The misconception is in regards to our definition of omniscient. The Bible doesn't state that God knows all things at all times. In fact, it makes it very clear that God does not know the actions of his followers- although it can be assumed that's by choice given his ability to prophecy. The idea that god is supposed to know this simply came out of a fleshing out of the definition, not that God always fit the fleshed out definition that people tend to think too much on.Meus Renaissance said:
He sets prophecy/choices in place in order to explain the grand significance of his actions, but that doesn't equate to individuals normally unless they play a large role in his overall plans such as Jesus or even the Apostle Paul which he directly steers in the ministry on occasion.
Overall though, God is not all knowing in that regard. Although that sounds blasphemous, it is again something that is made clear by God himself over and over again as he changes his mind, waits out a challenge, or asks questions of his creation.
IMO, God not having the ability to control what he knows would mean he's not all-powerful.
As an aside, I'm not sure if the primary purpose for creation is worship. I think that was certainly an expectation, but God already had that with the angels. I personally think that Giod wants to create the ehavens and the earth and the expectation was they would obey him. In fact they had too or else fail by their own reasonings. After all, if the angels did it, humans certainly could...and did.
I compare t to a husband and wife who decide to have kids. They didn't have them with the esole xpectation of obedience. They wanted them and the expectation was they would follow house rules until they were out on their own - basically equalling the adult staus of their parents.
Since no one can equal God, we stay in submission to him. But overall, I think creation makes God happy or at a minimum he does it just because he wants to. He didn't give too many orders to Adam & Eve, they just flunked at one of the 3 rules he gave them.
Meus Renaissance
Member
JGS said:
So, God withdraws the ability to know A) know our chosen path B) the impact certain events will have on us? And can you find Biblical evidence to support your points and all views on this? I usually ask priests or members of clergy so I want to bring more than just my question to them, but views on it as well
Thanks
God doesn't withdraw anything. He simply allows the course of events to happen...unless he directly intervenes. There is not one single instance in the Bible that we were not aware that God was controlling a particular scenario- ten plagues, Jesus' ressurection, Israel's army winning battles, etc...Meus Renaissance said:
Likewise, there's no indication that disasters are a result of him or that his followers have particulars protections not enjoyed by even the most evil of heathens. Time and unforseen occurence (aka chance) befall us all. What happens during those times are indeed tests, but they don't require involvement from God at all nor does it's effect on us.
We are our own free moral agents. It's only later, and with great arrogance imo, that people made this incorrect statement:
God is all knowing, thus he is omniscient, thus he is required to know all things at all times, thus there is no real free will.
The problem with the statement is, again, it's incorrect. The Bible has never indicated that God is required to know all at all times. That would make him weak, not perfect, because he couldn't control it. To the contrary, in addition to what I mentioned in the previous post, it states that ones choosing to worship him make him happy and they have his protection and doom would result in not choosing him- both completely meaningless if we were all of a sudden going to use a man's definition of what God can do. Fortunately we don't have to.
So you raise a good fallacy until one realizes that the debate is flawed to begin with. It's inventing a requirement of God that simply isn't there.
There's no implication of it either which makes sense since the Bible is pretty good at describing God - including what he can & can't do.
Fernando Rocker said:
Congratulations on planning to become baptized, that's terrific! As a Christian myself, I firmly believe in the truth of the Bible, and the sacrificial atonement made by Jesus. As with all things true, there will always be ample evidence that lead to that truth, and it will withstand scrutiny and challenges. Never be afraid to ask questions, and more importantly too seek the answers. Contrary to the belief of some, Christianity challenges you to question everything.
"But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"
-1 Peter 3:15
If you are looking for some resources to get you started, I highly suggest reading the book Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. This had an amazing impact on me and discusses the proof for God that is inherent within all of us. C.S. Lewis is often referred to the man who, "thought his way to God". He had no desire to become a Christian, but found the evidence to be to compelling to be ignored.
http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652926
If you're looking for a comprehensive book on the logic, evidence, and defense of Christianity (you will often here this referred to as apologetics), the book I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist is a great start. Like Mere Christianity, it begins with an agnostic mindset, and then proceeds to demonstrate why everything from the various sciences, philosophy, archaeology, etc. point to the existence of God, and ultimately the truth of Jesus Christ. The book covers everything from the Big Bang to the historical reliability of the Bible. The book is very friendly and aimed at the layman, so while it discusses a wealth of information, it's always accessible.
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303695335&sr=1-1
It sounds like you are right on track and it's great that you are taking the initiative to learn more! Finding a church that you connect with is a huge start. I used to hate going to church, and that had a significant impact on my Christian walk. Once I found a church that connected with me (if you're ever in the San Diego area, check out the Rock
) it helped transform me from a lukewarm Christian, to one who truly desires to live for God. Of course, you'll still have struggles and doubts, and you'll still struggle with the sin in your life (I know I do!), but this is all part of the process. God will never give you more than you can bear -- though you will need to rely on His strength. Do not become discouraged by the world around you, and especially the internet or the forums you frequent. It's been my experience that unless you are on a specific Christian oriented site, much of what you may encounter will not be friendly towards Christ oriented faith. That's okay. We are clearly instructed to show kindness and respect towards everyone, and more specifically, to love our enemies (although that doesn't mean you have to like them
). Don't tarnish your own credibility by resorting to their level. Finally, don't be afraid to question everything -- especially what you read on the internet (including anything I've said!). God can handle any scrutiny and investigation you aim at Him. Good luck and God bless! I hope you had a great Easter
Meus Renaissance
Member
JGS said:
That is very interesting. I never realised there was a distinction between direct intervention and 'letting course play out'. Direct intervention, illustrated in those Biblical events, to me were not merely acts of God but Him being visible in his presence to man. But on this subject, so you would feel that a natural disaster - whilst it may not be direct intervention (a higher purpose behind it) - but surely it was still an event that was done by the will of God? if not, then you suggest events occur that God did not want to occur. Or would you respond by suggesting he is just involved in these matters?
I don't question that free will exists. It really comes down to whether or not A) events happen by the will of God if not direct intervention and that B) he knows of this future timeline prior to it happening. Your rebuttal is that God does not know what will happen all the time. So how do we measure his omniscience, in other words - when can say if he God knows or doesn't know? Also can you show me the Biblica verses that support your points. I want to see where your argument comes from. I'm going to pass on this to those who are more knowledgable on Christianity comment on (will pass you their response if you're interested)
Well, if you feel it's the will of God that natural events occur than sure it's by his will. IMO, it has more to do with nature taking it's course. This is literal when it comes to natural disasters, but it's also recognizeable when it comes to humans and how they make decisions - poorly. This is the reason for wars, crime, & who knows what else. Actually most natural disasters have a lot to do with where man decides to live and how they live there.Meus Renaissance said:
Events do occur that God doesn't want to occur. He doesn't want anyone dead anymore than anybody else does (Whole point of Jesus' sacrifice was to save offer salvation to everyone), he just doesn't place a shield around people to protect them from natural events or self inflicted ones. To God, this is not that big of a deal since when his worshippers die he can always bring them back. In fact, he promises that he will. A person who loses faith on the basis of particular events is essentially saying they don't believe God will do what he says which is either get them through the event or remeber the suffering they endured in that event even to death.
A. God does allows thngs to happen. He permits disasters and suffering. He always has. Because he is the creator, by not stopping them, it's by his will. He does not plan or cause them though and has no need to. One of the most annoying aspects of going to a funeral is the implication that no matter what the death was, it was God's plan to take them. No, it was not wearing a seatbelt, smoking too much, getting old, etc...Meus Renaissance said:
B. God plan has been to allow humans to decide whether they want him or not. This would mean that he has no interest in knowing our decisions ahead of time. He gets joy/sadness observing what our actions are in relation to him. It's like reading the ending of a book first.
God's plan also includes answers to the way out for sin. That is the reason for propecies, so that people would know his overall plan was unchangeable. basically, there's no way that Satan can win and here's why.... So he foreknows the end result - that some will live, most will die and his sovreignty will be vindicated. It's not just a case of knowing it though. He controls it to ensure it's success as do his worshippers.
For example, he wasn't controlling Jesus but knew that Jesus would succeed. Jesus also had to resist temptations and avoid being killed to early in order to succeed. Christianity would spread worldwide but it required Christians to actually do the job. Further, although the goal was to save everyone, because of human tendency, apostasy spread and the reality that most would not do what God commanded was known way ahead of time.
However, God did not plan that, he just knew that would happen. The only way t prevent it was to sacrifice free will.
That I'm not sure of. I personally think God can be omniscient on the basis of having the ability to know everything, not the requirement. If it's a requirement than clearly God is something else other than omniscient.Meus Renaissance said:
When on individual basis, God does not foreknow anything unless it's in relation to his purpose. His purpose he knows the outcome to always and it will make sure that it's accomplished (The best examples of this are early in the Bible particularly the Tower of Babel & the Flood).
I'll look for specific scriptures later as I have to go to work but many of them tie into warnings God gave to his people or the urging of people to ask for prayers for help. There's not really particular reference to God not knowing things except from the logic of reading the scriptures.
Jonah, for example, is the story of a man who is told to tell a wicked kingdom of their destruction. He runs away, gets swallowed by a fish, repents, goes to the city, they repent, & God spares the city. Jonah gripes about it and realizes God didn't have a choice since they repented (Unlike Sodom & Gomorrah). The story is all about free will and God's choices (With some sense of humor on the side).
Fernando Rocker
Banned
Do you guys like Delirious??
OttomanScribe
Member
Who on earth told you that? *sigh* You were talking about Muslim stuff and no one came to tell me? Oh well.TaeOH said:
Allah is the Arabic word for God. Christians in the Arabic speaking world use the name 'Allah' in their prayers. The God of Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) is Allah. However what you believe about him is different to us in many ways.
We reject many things in the Christian creed, things like 'original sin' (which was added by Saint Augustine), the idea of a God who 'rests', a God who 'suffers' etc.
NegativeZero
Banned
Okay, this thread seems more like a debate thread than a thread that follows the original purpose the OP intended.
OttomanScribe
Member
I warned em. This is how you do it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425726NegativeZero said:
OttomanScribe said:hopefully we can show the nasiri we can do this right
Sorta troll.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
OttomanScribe said:I warned em. This is how you do it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425726
Sorta troll.
I tried my best.
But yeah... it's very hard to be a Christian here at GAF.
OttomanScribe
Member
If you want a Christian thread, just tell all the Christians not to respond to trolling or debate in a 'Christian come out thread'. That is what I did and it worked.Fernando Rocker said:
You are the majority in the most powerful countries in the world. You had the ear of a President for like 8 years (or at least 'Jesus' had his ear). You cop a bit of flack on Gaf and then you can go and check what it says on the dollar
A religion thread on Gaf will always have a measure of debate which I think is healthy overall especially considering all the different views in Christianity and the fact that Christians are very much in the minority here.NegativeZero said:
This place is far less mean spirited than other threads about religion including the Religion thread so I say kudos to OP and others (Including the non-religious) for keeping cool.
OttomanScribe
Member
Oh I forgot, on that table, it says that Islam is 'works based'. This is not true, and is as common an accusation in anti-Muslim polemics as kindness to animals was in Britain.
The proper aqidah understanding is that no one gains salvation save through the grace of Allah. No one gains entry to heaven on the strength of their works alone. However the mechanism for God's grace is one's works. Allah extends grace upon people through giving benefit to the works they perform. Sincerity and faith in this are one of the ways that works are measured, as 'every action is judged according to its intention'. Pure intention is gained through sincerity and certainty in faith.
The proper aqidah understanding is that no one gains salvation save through the grace of Allah. No one gains entry to heaven on the strength of their works alone. However the mechanism for God's grace is one's works. Allah extends grace upon people through giving benefit to the works they perform. Sincerity and faith in this are one of the ways that works are measured, as 'every action is judged according to its intention'. Pure intention is gained through sincerity and certainty in faith.
It is nice to have an intelligent discussion without members of opposing religions get angry at one another.
I am a Christian and generally Baptist in doctrine. Just wanted to throw that out there.
One thing I do want to point out is that we have to be careful with the way society is trying to push things. Everybody likes to be very hands off and just basically say, "Whatever works for you is fine".
I am all for respecting other religions and treating everybody fair and nice, but everybody has to realize that we cannot all be right. I am not necessarily saying that I am correct in my religion (Even though I feel that I am otherwise I would not be a part of it).
I just find it strange in today's society that a lot of people just have this concept that there are numerous paths to Heaven and many different religions lead you there. There is no way this could be true and you would have to agree regardless as to what religion you practice.
This is why I believe these discussions are great because we are all seeking answers and it takes intelligent discussion to arrive at the correct conclusions.
I look forward to future discussions and hope we all find the truth.
I am a Christian and generally Baptist in doctrine. Just wanted to throw that out there.
One thing I do want to point out is that we have to be careful with the way society is trying to push things. Everybody likes to be very hands off and just basically say, "Whatever works for you is fine".
I am all for respecting other religions and treating everybody fair and nice, but everybody has to realize that we cannot all be right. I am not necessarily saying that I am correct in my religion (Even though I feel that I am otherwise I would not be a part of it).
I just find it strange in today's society that a lot of people just have this concept that there are numerous paths to Heaven and many different religions lead you there. There is no way this could be true and you would have to agree regardless as to what religion you practice.
This is why I believe these discussions are great because we are all seeking answers and it takes intelligent discussion to arrive at the correct conclusions.
I look forward to future discussions and hope we all find the truth.
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