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[Dunk#7]

Oh I forgot, on that table, it says that Islam is 'works based'. This is not true, and is as common an accusation in anti-Muslim polemics as kindness to animals was in Britain.

The proper aqidah understanding is that no one gains salvation save through the grace of Allah. No one gains entry to heaven on the strength of their works alone. However the mechanism for God's grace is one's works. Allah extends grace upon people through giving benefit to the works they perform. Sincerity and faith in this are one of the ways that works are measured, as 'every action is judged according to its intention'. Pure intention is gained through sincerity and certainty in faith.

But in that you are basically saying that without works you will not gain the grace of Allah and thus entry into Heaven.

Therefore, taking out the middle man, you cannot get to Heaven without works.

That would make Islam works based. Would it not?

 

[OttomanScribe]

But in that you are basically saying that without works you will not gain the grace of Allah and thus entry into Heaven.

Therefore, taking out the middle man, you cannot get to Heaven without works.

That would make Islam works based. Would it not?

I would most certainly avoid calling God the 'middle man'. You cannot remove Him from the equation and examine the question without Him. So you cannot call Islam works based.

 

[Dunk#7]

I would most certainly avoid calling God the 'middle man'. You cannot remove Him from the equation and examine the question without Him. So you cannot call Islam works based.

I apologize for using the term that I did. I was simply trying to drop Allah out of that equation.

Yes, you can call any religion works based in which you do not get into Heaven by faith alone.


Islam requires works first which gain you favor/grace in the sight of Allah and therefore gain you admittance into Heaven. That is the definition of a works based religion.

 

[Chaplain]

Very interesting peace that 60 Minutes did on the Christian Monks of Mt. Athos:

Mt. Athos, Part 1
April 24, 2011 5:00 PM

Bob Simon steps back in time when he gets rare access to monks in ancient monasteries on a remote Greek peninsula who have lived a Spartan life of prayer in a tradition virtually unchanged for a thousand years.

Video at link: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7363712n#ixzz1KXyeUARw

Mt. Athos, Part 2
April 24, 2011 5:00 PM

"60 Minutes" cameras capture the monastic life, including chanting, prayers, rituals, and the priceless relics and icons from the Byzantine Empire stored on "The Holy Mountain," Mt. Athos. Bob Simon reports.

Video at link: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7363715n#ixzz1KXylAyRu

 

[OttomanScribe]

I apologize for using the term that I did. I was simply trying to drop Allah out of that equation.

Yes, you can call any religion works based in which you do not get into Heaven by faith alone.


Islam requires works first which gain you favor/grace in the sight of Allah and therefore gain you admittance into Heaven. That is the definition of a works based religion.

You can only enter heaven through the Grace of God. No amount of works will gain you entry. Works are not the way through which one gains the grace of God, that mechanism is faith and certainty.

Before we start getting into semantics about the definition, if you define 'works based' in a way that only Christianity's 'evil man can take Christ as a saviour 1 minute before death and be all good' can be defined as 'grace based', then I am not going to disagree.

However what I am saying is that the perception that Islam is a religion purely of works, is not a fair or knowledgeable representation.

 

[Chaplain]

About Salvation and works. God's Word says:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

"When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners."

I think it is clear that works cannot buy or earn salvation.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

About Salvation and works. God's Word says:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

"When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners."

I think it is clear that works cannot buy or earn salvation.

True. We were actually discussing that topic last week on the Church. You can be the most generous and good person in earth, you can do a lot of charity and stuff...

But none of that is worth a thing if you do not believe that Christ is our saviour.

 

[OttomanScribe]

About Salvation and works. God's Word says:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

"When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners."

I think it is clear that works cannot buy or earn salvation.

“Perform your deeds properly and in moderation, and know that one’s deeds will not cause anyone of you to enter Heaven, and that the most beloved of actions to Allah are the most consistent ones even if little in amount.” [Bukhari]

“There is no one whose deeds will cause him to enter Heaven. It was said, ‘Not even you, Messenger of Allah?’ He (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, ‘Not even me unless my Lord envelops me with His mercy.’” [Muslim]

 

[Dunk#7]

You can only enter heaven through the Grace of God. No amount of works will gain you entry. Works are not the way through which one gains the grace of God, that mechanism is faith and certainty.

Before we start getting into semantics about the definition, if you define 'works based' in a way that only Christianity's 'evil man can take Christ as a saviour 1 minute before death and be all good' can be defined as 'grace based', then I am not going to disagree.

However what I am saying is that the perception that Islam is a religion purely of works, is not a fair or knowledgeable representation.

We are working off of different definitions. I see where this is going.

My main point would be that in Islam a person with no good works would have no chance of getting into Heaven because they would have no chance of gaining the grace of God.

Yes, I am speaking of the grace that would allow one to be saved on their death bed. This is due to the fact that our sins our covered by what Jesus did on the cross. God cannot look past our sins without Jesus standing in the way. Nothing we do can gain us favor in God's eyes. We all sin on a daily basis even though we try to live as pure as we can. All sins are equal and therefore one laying on his death bed is no worse off than a teenager.

Isaiah 64:6 (King James Version)
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I know the above statements are some of the core differences between our religions and this is where we part ways. Due to this being such a core part of both of our doctrines I do not think we are going to make each other budge on this issue.

However, I would still consider Islam a works based religion since without them you cannot make it to Heaven.

In Christianity, works are simply the outward showing of your salvation. They are not required for salvation, but they should be evident in the life of a Christian.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

So, seeing how I got unabnned on Good Friday, and how I came to Christ during an Easter, I decided to shar my testimony.

I was never religious growing up. My mom tooked me to church with her on Sundays when I was a kid, but it never took. Eventually, my mother stopped going to church and I never really expressed an interest in going. I don't think I was an atheist, or even agnostic, God was just not something I ever thought of.

So, what had happened is that I got engaged, with the first person I ever fell in love with. Which means, I might not have been thinking things through very clearly. Well, that ended badly and I was pretty much devastated. I had forsaken my friends and my family for this girl, and now I had nothing. Well, at the time it felt like nothing. So for some odd reason, I thought that church might provide me some answers. So I decided to go to this church I used to see on the side of the road I used to pass on my way to the mall. So I decided to drop by one Sunday.

It was kind of terrifying at first, the church was filled with people I went to college with. Ones that I had clashes with and knew me as the kid who drank in class and wore nail polish. So it definitely took me a while to get comfortable in there. in fact, I used to just sit in the back and leave as quickly as possible after the sermon was over. Eventually, I started going to more and more additonal functions and it sort of felt like I found a home there.

So Easter of 2004, I went to Easter service, which I normally avoided because I knew it was a communion service. And as they went up and down the rows handing out the wafers and that horrible sweet wine, I had to make a gutcheck of whether or not I was really ready to give myself to Christ. And as I took communion, I realized I had made the correct decision. I was baptized 3 months later.

In 2008, I suffered a crisis of faith in many ways, my work at the time really brought me in touch with alot of people who identified as Christians, but were the most hateful people I had ever encountered. And it just started to weigh heavily on me, on the Christ I had given myself to, and the Christ that was being presented to me. Even going back to my home church that summer, really disheartened me. I felt so lost. Eventually, I just stopped going to church at all. It definitely felt like the Christ I had loved and whose teaching that I thought I understood were the antithesis of what the majority of Christians seemed to follow.

But, yesterday, I decided to drop by a random church and attend Easter services. It felt very good to worship with others again. I didn't stay after the service for fellowship, but i definitely felt the 'Prodigal Son" vibe coursing through me.

And it seems like a repeat of what has gone on with my walk with Christ. Everytime I have felt lost, or alone, God has opened a door for me. Sometimes, its obvious to me, sometimes, God has to give me a kick in the ass to go towards it. But, I may be ready to come home.

Anyway, just felt like sharing.

 

[Chaplain]

“Perform your deeds properly and in moderation, and know that one’s deeds will not cause anyone of you to enter Heaven, and that the most beloved of actions to Allah are the most consistent ones even if little in amount.” [Bukhari]

“There is no one whose deeds will cause him to enter Heaven. It was said, ‘Not even you, Messenger of Allah?’ He (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, ‘Not even me unless my Lord envelops me with His mercy.’” [Muslim]

The difference is that we are guaranteed heaven by accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour. Both of those quotes show that it is unknown and maybe Allah will have mercy on the person. Jesus talking to the Apostle Paul:

'For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and witness. You are to tell the world what you have seen and what I will show you in the future. And I will rescue you from both your own people and the Gentiles. Yes, I am sending you to the Gentiles to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God’s people, who are set apart by faith in me.’

God will not save anyone unless they accept Christ, who are set apart (saved) from the second death and Hell. Every person who is not saved is owned by Satan (he is their slave). God would be violating a persons will if he forced them into Heaven. God offers a ticket to go to Heaven. This ticket can only be received by accepting Christ. You cannot earn the ticket by doing good things.

 

[Dunk#7]

Guys we are simply getting into the core difference between Islam and Christianity.

Islam: They do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and therefore the path to Heaven is still through trying to appease God.

Christianity: Jesus is the Messiah. We cannot appease God even with our best efforts. Accepting Jesus' payment is our only hope. Jesus paid for our sins and our eternal destiny rests on this fact.

 

[devenger]

But none of that is worth a thing if you do not believe that Christ is our saviour.

This is my main problem with Christianity. It doesn't seem fair. Why would God sentence good people to eternal torture for this?

I'm not being purposefully confrontational, and I know the correct answer is that humans can't really understand a deity's motivations or reasons.

But it's a strange logical fallacy / breakdown when i realize I disagree with God.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

This is my main problem with Christianity. It doesn't seem fair. Why would God sentence good people to eternal torture for this?

I'm not being purposefully confrontational, and I know the correct answer is that humans can't really understand a deity's motivations or reasons.

But it's a strange logical fallacy / breakdown when i realize I disagree with God.

He doesn't sentence them per se. You can acheive salvation through Christ. If you choose to reject that, well...there you go.

Now, I beleive its a two way street, Christians are commanded to bring others to Christ as well. Hence, evangelism and such.

 

[Dunk#7]

This is my main problem with Christianity. It doesn't seem fair. Why would God sentence good people to eternal torture for this?

I'm not being purposefully confrontational, and I know the correct answer is that humans can't really understand a deity's motivations or reasons.

But it's a strange logical fallacy / breakdown when i realize I disagree with God.

Please describe how any human being is good? Really take a step back and look

Nobody is good. We are all sinners.


Edit: And it's not that God isn't loving and doesn't want everybody to get into Heaven. It is the simple fact that a Holy God cannot in his very nature cannot look upon sin. Our only hope is to have Jesus cover our sins through his payment on the cross. Otherwise God, being just and holy, must punish sin.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Guys we are simply getting into the core difference between Islam and Christianity.

Islam: They do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and therefore the path to Heaven is still through trying to appease God.

Christianity: Jesus is the Messiah. We cannot appease God even with our best efforts. Accepting Jesus' payment is our only hope. Jesus paid for our sins and our eternal destiny rests on this fact.

We do believe that Jesus is the Messiah (alayhis salaam). In fact it is one of the foundations of faith.

The difference is that we are guaranteed heaven by accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour. Both of those quotes show that it is unknown and maybe Allah will have mercy on the person. Jesus talking to the Apostle Paul:

There is certainty in other verses/hadith, those are just those related to Grace.

The Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) said:
"Whoever says: there is no god but Allah enters Paradise."
(Nasa'i, Tabarani and others from Abu al-Darda' - sahih)

The Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) said:
"Whoever witnesses that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger, Allah forbids the Fire from touching him."
(Bukhari and Muslim from `Ubada ibn al-Samit)

My main point would be that in Islam a person with no good works would have no chance of getting into Heaven because they would have no chance of gaining the grace of God.

Does such a person exist? When Allah counts even an atom's weight of good?

 

[Fernando Rocker]

This is my main problem with Christianity. It doesn't seem fair. Why would God sentence good people to eternal torture for this?

I'm not being purposefully confrontational, and I know the correct answer is that humans can't really understand a deity's motivations or reasons.

But it's a strange logical fallacy / breakdown when i realize I disagree with God.

Thing is... you could be the best person in the world, but you will still sin almost everday... and your sins can only be removed by accepting Christ as your saviour.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Please describe how any human being is good? Really take a step back and look

Nobody is good. We are all sinners.

I think he means people like Gandhi, or the Dalai Lama, perhaps.

 

[bjb]

So, seeing how I got unabnned on Good Friday, and how I came to Christ during an Easter, I decided to shar my testimony.

I was never religious growing up. My mom tooked me to church with her on Sundays when I was a kid, but it never took. Eventually, my mother stopped going to church and I never really expressed an interest in going. I don't think I was an atheist, or even agnostic, God was just not something I ever thought of.

So, what had happened is that I got engaged, with the first person I ever fell in love with. Which means, I might not have been thinking things through very clearly. Well, that ended badly and I was pretty much devastated. I had forsaken my friends and my family for this girl, and now I had nothing. Well, at the time it felt like nothing. So for some odd reason, I thought that church might provide me some answers. So I decided to go to this church I used to see on the side of the road I used to pass on my way to the mall. So I decided to drop by one Sunday.

It was kind of terrifying at first, the church was filled with people I went to college with. Ones that I had clashes with and knew me as the kid who drank in class and wore nail polish. So it definitely took me a while to get comfortable in there. in fact, I used to just sit in the back and leave as quickly as possible after the sermon was over. Eventually, I started going to more and more additonal functions and it sort of felt like I found a home there.

So Easter of 2004, I went to Easter service, which I normally avoided because I knew it was a communion service. And as they went up and down the rows handing out the wafers and that horrible sweet wine, I had to make a gutcheck of whether or not I was really ready to give myself to Christ. And as I took communion, I realized I had made the correct decision. I was baptized 3 months later.

In 2008, I suffered a crisis of faith in many ways, my work at the time really brought me in touch with alot of people who identified as Christians, but were the most hateful people I had ever encountered. And it just started to weigh heavily on me, on the Christ I had given myself to, and the Christ that was being presented to me. Even going back to my home church that summer, really disheartened me. I felt so lost. Eventually, I just stopped going to church at all. It definitely felt like the Christ I had loved and whose teaching that I thought I understood were the antithesis of what the majority of Christians seemed to follow.

But, yesterday, I decided to drop by a random church and attend Easter services. It felt very good to worship with others again. I didn't stay after the service for fellowship, but i definitely felt the 'Prodigal Son" vibe coursing through me.

And it seems like a repeat of what has gone on with my walk with Christ. Everytime I have felt lost, or alone, God has opened a door for me. Sometimes, its obvious to me, sometimes, God has to give me a kick in the ass to go towards it. But, I may be ready to come home.

Anyway, just felt like sharing.

Very well written. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[Dunk#7]

We do believe that Jesus is the Messiah (alayhis salaam). In fact it is one of the foundations of faith.

Ok, true.

But what I meant was that you do not accept Jesus as the Son of God and do not accept the fact that he died to pay for the sin debt. This fact radically changes the path to Heaven.

I messed up the terminology.

 

[Chaplain]

This is my main problem with Christianity. It doesn't seem fair. Why would God sentence good people to eternal torture for this?

When we are born, we are all born into slavery. What Slavery? The Bible says Satan is the god of this world and when we are born we are born as his children. How? By how we act. We practice sin and Satan is the father of sin.

Now, when we do any deed, they are covered in sin. The prophet Isaiah said:

"We are constant sinners;
how can people like us be saved?
We are all infected and impure with sin.
When we display our righteous deeds,
they are nothing but filthy rags.
Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall,
and our sins sweep us away like the wind."

Jesus is God's cleanser of and from our sins. God will not clean us from and of our sins unless we ask him to do it through His Son. God does not want anyone to go to hell and be separated from Him and those we love. He offers us a cure for our disease of sin by belief in His Son.

God wants us to humble ourselves, see that we have sinned and that we need His grace and mercy to make it to heaven and just to be brought into his family.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Ok, true.

But what I meant was that you do not accept Jesus as the Son of God and do not accept the fact that he died to pay for the sin debt. This fact radically changes the path to Heaven.

I messed up the terminology.

You are right, we hold that 'The Most Merciful does not need a son to give mercy'. We also don't believe that God is capable of loss and so cannot suffer. We also don't believe in original sin (neither did you Nasiri, til Saint Augustine).

 

[devenger]

Nobody is good. We are all sinners.

Well, that's where, if I wanted to be one of those atheist douches, I would make a big stink about. But I'm not here to argue.

The idea that no one is good is a hard point to for me to take seriously. And that just boils down to core beliefs. I believe I'm a good person, and know many good people. This of course goes directly against the belief that you are born with sin. So just a difference of opinion there.

If we were to further argue, which believe me, I've made the mistake of doing in the past, it would further boil down to the Bible, and what it says about this matter. And I think we all agree that it says what you've posted above.

So again, no room for arguing. All arguments about Christianity eventually settle on "The Bible tells me so." And I certainly can't disagree with that.

 

[Chaplain]

You are right, we hold that 'The Most Merciful does not need a son to give mercy'. We also don't believe that God is capable of loss and so cannot suffer. We also don't believe in original sin (neither did you Nasiri, til Saint Augustine).

Here is a comparison chart of both faiths:

 

[OttomanScribe]

Here is a comparison chart of both faiths:

Deja Vu.

That chart is quite flawed. So flawed as to be of little use. No offence.

 

[Chaplain]

Well, that's where, if I wanted to be one of those atheist douches, I would make a big stink about. But I'm not here to argue.

The idea that no one is good is a hard point to for me to take seriously. And that just boils down to core beliefs. I believe I'm a good person, and know many good people. This of course goes directly against the belief that you are born with sin. So just a difference of opinion there.

Jesus' brother wrote:

"For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws. For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder. So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law."

The question you have to ask yourself is do you sin? Have you ever lied? Have you ever taken God's name in vain? Have you ever not honored your father or mother? If you have, then you are a sinner like every other person on this planet.

 

[Chaplain]

. No offence.

None taken.

 

[Dunk#7]

You are right, we hold that 'The Most Merciful does not need a son to give mercy'. We also don't believe that God is capable of loss and so cannot suffer. We also don't believe in original sin (neither did you Nasiri, til Saint Augustine).

Augustine did not "invent" original sin. It is the teaching of Scripture, and original sin was a traditional Jewish belief as well. The idea was around LONG before Augustine ever arrived on the scene. Augustine simply gets noted because of his considerable discourses against the extreme opposite notions of Pelagius.

Original sin was also noted among many early church fathers well before Augustine: Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Hermas, Theophilus of Antioch, to name a few.

http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5564737

 

[devenger]

The question you have to ask yourself is do you sin? Have you ever lied? Have you ever taken God's name in vain? Have you ever not honored your father or mother? If you have, then you are a sinner like every other person on this planet.

Well, there are actually two possibilities, but only one of them is acceptable to a person of faith, the one you present above.

The other possibility is that no one is perfect, and a good person will strive to do less of these things.

So when I ask myself that question, my answer is no, I do not sin. I understand from your viewpoint that lying is a sin, but to others, it's something that imperfect people do. And something good people work hard not to do, or at the very least do less.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Augustine did not "invent" original sin. It is the teaching of Scripture, and original sin was a traditional Jewish belief as well. The idea was around LONG before Augustine ever arrived on the scene. Augustine simply gets noted because of his considerable discourses against the extreme opposite notions of Pelagius.

Original sin was also noted among many early church fathers well before Augustine: Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Hermas, Theophilus of Antioch, to name a few.

http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5564737

I'm just taking what I learnt from Christian historians. I am welcome to contradiction show me an example of the discussion specifically of the concept of 'Original Sin' before Saint Augustine. Anything in terms of statements of doctrine or creed will suffice to have me recant my statement.

Quoting scriptural verses that were later interpreted to refer to original sin are insufficient in this respect. What I am looking for is an example of the early Christians having such an understanding prior to Saint Augustine

 

[Chaplain]

I'm just taking what I learnt from Christian historians. I am welcome to contradiction show me an example of the discussion specifically of the concept of 'Original Sin' before Saint Augustine. Anything in terms of statements of doctrine or creed will suffice to have me recant my statement.

Quoting scriptural verses that were later interpreted to refer to original sin are insufficient in this respect. What I am looking for is an example of the early Christians having such an understanding prior to Saint Augustine

The Psalms talk about original sin. Here is the verse:

"Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.
For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
But you desire honesty from the womb,
teaching me wisdom even there."

 

[OttomanScribe]

The Psalms talk about original sin. Here is the verse:

"Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.
For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
But you desire honesty from the womb,
teaching me wisdom even there."

=

Quoting scriptural verses that were later interpreted to refer to original sin are insufficient in this respect. What I am looking for is an example of the early Christians having such an understanding prior to Saint Augustine

 

[Dunk#7]

Well, that's where, if I wanted to be one of those atheist douches, I would make a big stink about. But I'm not here to argue.

The idea that no one is good is a hard point to for me to take seriously. And that just boils down to core beliefs. I believe I'm a good person, and know many good people. This of course goes directly against the belief that you are born with sin. So just a difference of opinion there.

If we were to further argue, which believe me, I've made the mistake of doing in the past, it would further boil down to the Bible, and what it says about this matter. And I think we all agree that it says what you've posted above.

So again, no room for arguing. All arguments about Christianity eventually settle on "The Bible tells me so." And I certainly can't disagree with that.

I see where you are coming from and I enjoy light-hearted discussions. I can see you are not wanting to get into anything big here but I did what to make a point after that.

It isn't even a matter of whether we are born with sin or not (Even though I feel that we are). On a daily basis there are numerous sins that we commit. It is part of our sin nature and we try to control it the best we can.

People do seem to be generally good if you are only looking at what we consider to be "big" sins. Lying, stealing, cheating, murder, etc...

However the Bible teaches that every sin is equal in God's eyes. Think about thoughts that go through your head everyday and numerous other "small" sins that we commit on a daily basis. Lustful thoughts, exceeding the speed limit, road rage, etc..

If you look at things in this light there isn't anyway anybody on this Earth can be considered 'good'

 

[Dunk#7]

=

LOL not much to quote there, but in your response you said we could not use a Bible verse.

However, it is painfully obvious in the verse that it is referring to original sin. It says he was born a sinner. How could that be read any other way?

 

[Chaplain]

=

For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

It is clear as a blue sky about David saying he was born in sin. There is no other way to interpret that verse.

 

[OttomanScribe]

LOL not much to quote there, but in your response you said we could not use a Bible verse.

However, it is painfully obvious in the verse that it is referring to original sin. It says he was born a sinner. How could that be read any other way?

I don't know the Hebrew or Greek that it was in. I also think that it could just as much refer to one being born with the inclination to sin, rather than being condemned by the fall of Adam (alayhis salaam). When Rabi'a al-Adawiyya (rahimuLlah) was approached by a man who claimed to have not sinned for twenty years, her reply was 'alas my son, thine existence is a sin wherewith no other sin can be compared'.

For the Christian, raised with the doctrine of original sin, this statement could readily be interpreted as a confirmation of such a doctrine, however it is not the only interpretation. This is the way of any statement.

This is why I ask not for scriptural support, but such a thing described and interpreted through someone before Saint Augustine to mean 'every person after Adam was condemned for the sin of the fall'.

 

[JGS]

What's the original sin again?

 

[Mario]

I see where you are coming from and I enjoy light-hearted discussions. I can see you are not wanting to get into anything big here but I did what to make a point after that.

It isn't even a matter of whether we are born with sin or not (Even though I feel that we are). On a daily basis there are numerous sins that we commit. It is part of our sin nature and we try to control it the best we can.

People do seem to be generally good if you are only looking at what we consider to be "big" sins. Lying, stealing, cheating, murder, etc...

However the Bible teaches that every sin is equal in God's eyes. Think about thoughts that go through your head everyday and numerous other "small" sins that we commit on a daily basis. Lustful thoughts, exceeding the speed limit, road rage, etc..

If you look at things in this light there isn't anyway anybody on this Earth can be considered 'good'

Why does God value faith in Jesus over good works?

 

[Fernando Rocker]

What's the original sin again?

Basically, disobedience by Eve and Adam.

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19

 

[devenger]

If you look at things in this light there isn't anyway anybody on this Earth can be considered 'good'

Thanks for being patient and civil. I've matured a small amount over the years, enough to not be interested in the knockdown dragouts, and people trying to prove each other wrong.

I'm going to step out of your thread so as to not derail it, or attempt to, I should say.

I'm not certain enough in my beliefs to try to win anyone over to them. I mean this sincerely, and my first response to anyone's faith is "Well, you may be right about that."

But the above sentiment makes me sad, and it is indeed the crux of faith. I still believe poeple can be good, I still believe you can live a life that's productive and positive, and helpful when given the opportunity. Its true that everyone is a sinner in that light, that is the main reason I reject this viewpoint.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The other issue, about what Dunk is saying about us 'all being sinners' is the issue with babies who die in infancy.

 

[Dunk#7]

The other issue, about what Dunk is saying about us 'all being sinners' is the issue with babies who die in infancy.

No, because of the "age of accountability".

The "age of accountability" is different for each person. It is the point at which a person is able to discern right from wrong. Until that point in your life you are Heaven bound.

 

[OttomanScribe]

No, because of the "age of accountability".

The "age of accountability" is different for each person. It is the point at which a person is able to discern right from wrong. Until that point in your life you are Heaven bound.

Why? I thought you had to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour, or else you were burdened with Original Sin.

 

[Dunk#7]

Thanks for being patient and civil. I've matured a small amount over the years, enough to not be interested in the knockdown dragouts, and people trying to prove each other wrong.

I'm going to step out of your thread so as to not derail it, or attempt to, I should say.

I'm not certain enough in my beliefs to try to win anyone over to them. I mean this sincerely, and my first response to anyone's faith is "Well, you may be right about that."

But the above sentiment makes me sad, and it is indeed the crux of faith. I still believe poeple can be good, I still believe you can live a life that's productive and positive, and helpful when given the opportunity. Its true that everyone is a sinner in that light, that is the main reason I reject this viewpoint.

I see your viewpoint and I accept your view. I will not torture you any more with my argument.

I believe that you see where my viewpoint comes from and how I defend it, but you simply just do not feel that way.

I feel that this is a dangerous path. Society in general has pushed this viewpoint that everybody is generally good. I simply just do not feel that this is true due to my understanding of what the Bible teaches.

Agree to disagree

 

[Dunk#7]

Why? I thought you had to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour, or else you were burdened with Original Sin.

Once you reach the "age of accountability" you are then burdened with the original sin. We are born with a sin nature.

You are born in sin but not held accountable for that sin until you reach the age of accountability.

 

[Mario]

Once you reach the "age of accountability" you are then burdened with the original sin. We are born with a sin nature.

You are born in sin but not held accountable for that sin until you reach the age of accountability.

Can you reference scripture for this? I've never heard of the concept before.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Once you reach the "age of accountability" you are then burdened with the original sin. We are born with a sin nature.

You are born in sin but not held accountable for that sin until you reach the age of accountability.

So a person who has not yet sinned does not need to accept Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour to have salvation?

 

[Dunk#7]

Can you reference scripture for this? I've never heard of the concept before.

http://carm.org/dictionary-accountability

The idea that there is an age where an individual becomes responsible for being able to distinguish between right and wrong. There is no biblical statement concerning this. Nevertheless, children are all under the Fall of Adam. Rom. 5:12 says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Also, In Psalm 51:5 David said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Therefore, we are all born under the curse of the Fall.

The atoning work of Christ is received by faith. But, can an infant believe? Psalm 22:9 says, "Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts." So, though children from the conception are under the Fall of Adam, God is able to make them believe and trust in him.

 

[Dunk#7]

So a person who has not yet sinned does not need to accept Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour to have salvation?

That person was born into sin, but they do not need to accept Christ until they are at an age where they understand the concept of sin and the difference between right and wrong.

 

[Mario]

http://carm.org/dictionary-accountability

The idea that there is an age where an individual becomes responsible for being able to distinguish between right and wrong. There is no biblical statement concerning this. Nevertheless, children are all under the Fall of Adam. Rom. 5:12 says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Also, In Psalm 51:5 David said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Therefore, we are all born under the curse of the Fall.

The atoning work of Christ is received by faith. But, can an infant believe? Psalm 22:9 says, "Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts." So, though children from the conception are under the Fall of Adam, God is able to make them believe and trust in him.

This suggests God forces faith on children not of age then?