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[OttomanScribe]

That person was born into sin, but they do not need to accept Christ until they are at an age where they understand the concept of sin and the difference between right and wrong.

Why would their understanding of the concept of the sin make a difference in this sense? If they are born into sin, they are born into sin right? Regardless of whether or not they can understand what that means.

What about the insane? Are they exempt also?

 

[Dunk#7]

Why would their understanding of the concept of the sin make a difference in this sense? If they are born into sin, they are born into sin right? Regardless of whether or not they can understand what that means.

What about the insane? Are they exempt also?

I believe that they are. If a person never reaches a point in their life where they can discern between right and wrong then yes I believe that they are exempt.

Depending on the mental handicap this may or may not be true. I cannot speak for anyone else's ability to know right from wrong.

 

[Dunk#7]

This suggests God forces faith on children not of age then?

What happens to babies or infants who die? Do they go to heaven or hell?

By way of background, we have to remember that everyone is guilty before God because of the sin we inherited from Adam (Rom. 5:12; cf. 1 Cor. 15:21-22). In fact, there is not a single righteous person (Rom. 3:10-11). We have all sinned (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, everyone is guilty before the holy, righteous God no matter how young or how old. Furthermore, belief is a necessary requirement for salvation (John 3:18-19; Acts 16:31).

While the Bible does not explicitly say where young children go when they die in infancy, it seems to imply that they go to heaven.

First, there is no verse in Scripture which states that those unbelievers will go to hell because they were not old enough to believe. Since God is just, it would appear that He would allow these infants to go to heaven.

Second, perhaps the only passage in Scripture which explicitly speaks about where babies go who die in infancy, is 2 Samuel 12. In the context of this passage, David committed adultery with Bathsheba. The prophet Nathan boldly confronts David about his adultery and tells him that the child that Bathsheba has conceived will die. As a result of the confrontation, David confesses his sin, puts on sackcloth and ashes, fasts, and mourns the fact that he will lose his child. When David receives news that the child has died, he quits mourning and fasting and changes his clothing. The prophet Nathan comes to David and asks him why he quit mourning the loss of his son.

David replies, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.' But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me (2 Sam. 12:22-23)." The text seems to imply that the child went to heaven since David says, "I will go to him, but he will not return to me" and elsewhere Scripture indicates that David went to heaven (Ps. 16:10-11; Heb. 11:32).

Third, Scripture may allude to an age of accountability in Isaiah 7:15 which speaks of a child who "will eat curds and honey at the time he knows enough to refuse evil and choose good." If a child dies before this "time," it would seem that he or she would go to heaven.

It is difficult to be dogmatic about this issue, but we can rest in the fact that God is holy, righteous, and just. Therefore, whatever God chooses to do with infants will be best for them.

http://carm.org/what-happens-to-babies-or-infants-who-die

 

[darkwing]

would this help?

Deuteronomy 1
39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

 

[Mario]

I believe that they are. If a person never reaches a point in their life where they can discern between right and wrong then yes I believe that they are exempt.

Depending on the mental handicap this may or may not be true. I cannot speak for anyone else's ability to know right from wrong.

What if you lose the capacity through accident or illness? Exempt also?

What about if you have the capacity but your upbringing misled you through false teachings?

 

[OttomanScribe]

What does it take to get into heaven in your beliefs?

 

[Dunk#7]

What does it take to get into heaven in your beliefs?

Putting your faith in Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross. The sinless Son of God lost his life on the cross to pay for our sins. All we have to do is accept that this is true and put our faith in Jesus as our only hope of salvation.

Works are secondary. They should be evident in a Christians life due to the nature of the Holy Spirit. However, works have nothing to do with your salvation.

 

[Mario]

What happens to babies or infants who die? Do they go to heaven or hell?

This interpretation seems like wishful thinking given there is scripture against this view and an only an inference in support of it, relying on God being "just".

There are hundreds of scenarios where you could claim a "just" God would make an exception. How can you know when the scriptures detail an absolute if even the basic rule for entrance to Heaven is subject to question and grey areas?

 

[Mario]

Works are secondary. They should be evident in a Christians life due to the nature of the Holy Spirit. However, works have nothing to do with your salvation.

I asked on the previous page but didn't get an answer - why does God value faith in Jesus above good works?

 

[Dunk#7]

What if you lose the capacity through accident or illness? Exempt also?

What about if you have the capacity but your upbringing misled you through false teachings?

Romans 1:20 (King James Version)

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


The Bible teaches that people are without excuse. They should be able to look around and know that there is a God and therefore pursue salvation.

 

[Dunk#7]

I asked on the previous page but didn't get an answer - why does God value faith in Jesus above good works?

I cannot answer that for God.

You could ask Him, but He has already answered it in the Bible.

 

[Kinitari]

Putting your faith in Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross. The sinless Son of God lost his life on the cross to pay for our sins. All we have to do is accept that this is true and put our faith in Jesus as our only hope of salvation.

Works are secondary. They should be evident in a Christians life due to the nature of the Holy Spirit. However, works have nothing to do with your salvation.

Not to poop all over this thread, but doesn't that seem... shallow? First and foremost, before you're a good person, before you respect, love and care for people - what you need to do is believe in me. After that, whatever, hopefully you act good.

The... uhm... let's say 'cynic' in me, see's that as a ploy to obtain as many worshippers and followers to the faith as possible. No need to do anything fancy, just bend the knee to the king and you'll get your reward. Oh you, over there - yeah you saving those orphans and being a loving and caring father and husband? Not Christian? Sorry, nothing for you.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Romans 1:20 (King James Version)

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


The Bible teaches that people are without excuse. They should be able to look around and know that there is a God and therefore pursue salvation.

So this can be achieved by people just through an understanding of God's eternal power. Rather than acceptance of Christ? So a Bedouin village with no knowledge that there are anyone but Muslims on the earth (they exist) will be saved?

 

[Mario]

Romans 1:20 (King James Version)

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


The Bible teaches that people are without excuse. They should be able to look around and know that there is a God and therefore pursue salvation.

So, the young, some mentally ill, and some brain damaged get an exception, but not the misled.

What about people who haven't heard the Word of God? While they might conclude there is a divine power by "looking around", they won't explicitly accept Jesus because they won't know of his story or sacrifice. Are they exempt, or "without excuse"?

 

[Kinitari]

Romans 1:20 (King James Version)

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


The Bible teaches that people are without excuse. They should be able to look around and know that there is a God and therefore pursue salvation.

This is such a cop-out though! I understand you're not teaching this, that you are simply repeating what is taught, I just want to comment on it. This is such an easily arguable point. What compels someone to look around and 'know' there is a God. If I look around and don't see God anywhere (honestly, you can't point to a single thing in my life that needs a deistic presence) - does that mean 1. God isn't anywhere to be seen or 2. I am not looking hard enough?

 

[Dunk#7]

So this can be achieved by people just through an understanding of God's eternal power. Rather than acceptance of Christ? So a Bedouin village with no knowledge that there are anyone but Muslims on the earth (they exist) will be saved?

What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?

There are two possible responses. First, it could be that those who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ will go to hell. Second, it could be that those who have never heard of Jesus Christ and the gospel will be judged in a different way than those who have heard of Jesus.

The Bible does not tell us specifically about what happens to those who have never heard. But it does say that Jesus is the only way to salvation (Acts 4:12). If it is possible that someone who has not heard the gospel can be saved, it must be through Jesus Christ and him alone (John 14:6). But, it could not be that a person who is not heard of Jesus can make it to heaven based upon being good since that would violate the scriptural teaching that no one is good (Rom. 3:10-12).

If all people who have never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ end up in hell, then that would be right because God would never do anything that is improper. On the other hand, if any of them end up in heaven, then it would be the right thing to do for the same reason.

But, if righteousness before God can be achieved through being good, or sincere, or by following various laws, then Jesus died needlessly: "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21).

Because the Scripture does not specifically address this issue, we cannot make an absolute statement concerning it. However, since the Bible does state that salvation is only through Jesus and that a person must receive Christ, then logically we conclude that those who have not heard the gospel are lost. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel to everyone.

"for Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Rom. 10:13-14).

http://carm.org/what-happens-those-who-have-never-heard-gospel

 

[Dunk#7]

Not to poop all over this thread, but doesn't that seem... shallow? First and foremost, before you're a good person, before you respect, love and care for people - what you need to do is believe in me. After that, whatever, hopefully you act good.

The... uhm... let's say 'cynic' in me, see's that as a ploy to obtain as many worshippers and followers to the faith as possible. No need to do anything fancy, just bend the knee to the king and you'll get your reward. Oh you, over there - yeah you saving those orphans and being a loving and caring father and husband? Not Christian? Sorry, nothing for you.

I know it is hard to grasp due to the nature of our society today. Everybody has this general concept in their head that at the end of their life God is going to take a scale and put their good works on one side and their bad works on the other. Then, depending on the tilt, they will be accepted or denied entrance into Heaven.

None of our works are good in God's eyes. It is easy for us to consider things to be good, but in comparison to God's holiness our works look like filthy rags. That is the way the Bible describes man's best attempts at righteousness.

 

[Mario]

What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?

Right. So the same people claiming children if they die before knowing God aren't damned because God is "just" even though no scripture to support that will happily condemn those heathens over there because "That's what the Bible says".

Again, sounds like wishful thinking and selective interpretation. Nobody wants to think the infants dying within their own community are damned. But who cares about some community that are different from us regardless of their circumstances.

 

[Kinitari]

I know it is hard to grasp due to the nature of our society today. Everybody has this general concept in their head that at the end of their life God is going to take a scale and put their good works on one side and their bad works on the other. Then, depending on the tilt, they will be accepted or denied entrance into Heaven.

None of our works are good in God's eyes. It is easy for us to consider things to be good, but in comparison to God's holiness our works look like filthy rags. That is the way the Bible describes man's best attempts at righteousness.

Well that's just depressing. If I am honest, this god just seems petty, jealous, vindictive and un-empathetic. In my head, the deities to respect are the... you know... nice ones.

 

[Dunk#7]

Right. So the same people claiming children if they die before knowing God aren't damned because God is "just" even though no scripture to support that will happily condemn those heathens over there because "That's what the Bible says".

Again, sounds like wishful thinking and selective interpretation. Nobody wants to think the infants dying within their own community are damned. But who cares about some community that are different from us regardless of their circumstances.

It doesn't have anything to do with infants knowing God. They have to reach an age where they know right from wrong.

 

[Mario]

It doesn't have anything to do with infants knowing God. They have to reach an age where they know right from wrong.

The point still stands.

Besides, what does right or wrong matter? The scripture only demands acceptance of Jesus for entrance to Heaven. "Works don't matter".

 

[OttomanScribe]

Gotta say this discussion really confirms to me why I am a Muslim

It was for a moment that I was blinded by a smile, like a Damascus road journey punctuated with a flash of light.

But the former was as false as the latter, lies and illusions in turn making lines of allusions across my notepaper.

For that moment I knelt before her, both knees to the ground, begging and prayer looking much the same.

I liked her skin, false like Christ’s tanned whiteness in cruciform anguish, it seemed irony, innocence and corruption juxtaposed.

My worship faded with her smile, her rosemary tears turning to salt, mottled colour of stained glass seeming no more wondrous than a child’s Christmas baubles.

So I walked from her church, no longer riling at pleas falling upon deaf ears, shed no bitter tears for false gods and found salaam in the arms of one most worthy.

 

[Dunk#7]

Well that's just depressing. If I am honest, this god just seems petty, jealous, vindictive and un-empathetic. In my head, the deities to respect are the... you know... nice ones.

You are going to tell the creator how he should act and what he should do?

I don't think we are in the position to question.

Just choose whatever god you feel is nicest? That sounds like a good selection process. Don't choose based on right and wrong.

 

[Dunk#7]

The point still stands.

Besides, what does right or wrong matter? The scripture only demands acceptance of Jesus for entrance to Heaven. "Works don't matter".

You have to have the ability to know what sin is before you can come to a realization that you need Jesus to pay for your sin debt.

 

[Kinitari]

You are going to tell the creator how he should act and what he should do?

I don't think we are in the position to question.

Just choose whatever god you feel is nicest? That sounds like a good selection process. Don't choose based on right and wrong.

So here's the hypothetical - God has implanted particular moral virtues in us for us to uphold. Kindness, forgiveness, empathy, love, compassion - etc - we can probably agree these are considered good things. God is exempt - because he made us.

Now to take this further, we don't even know if he made us, if he exists - he demands faith. So here's how it is - he tells us, you guys are born with sin, each of you are horrible terrible creatures of my creation, I had to send down my own son because you were all just horrible. So now you owe me. Because of me you no longer have to suffer because of the sin of Adam, the first dude I made. But the caveat is, you need to worship me 100%. Yes I know you can't see me, yes I know there are contradictions in my gospel, yes I know there are many tests of faith and many alternatives, but the whole point is you HAVE to choose me. Or else, Hell - doesn't matter if you uphold all those virtues you think are great, those are trash before me, just follow me and worry about the rest later.

Is this something to be respected, let alone worshipped? When in my eyes as an unbeliever, all deities are equally unbelievable, if I had to choose - why choose this one?

 

[Mario]

You have to have the ability to know what sin is before you can come to a realization that you need Jesus to pay for your sin debt.

You haven't addressed my point. Though to be fair I didn't ask a question.

Why do infants who die before knowing and accepting Jesus get a pass into Heaven while people who haven't been given the opportunity to hear the story of Jesus don't?

I contend the links you provide are a result of wishful thinking and selective (and inconsistent) interpretation.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Oh I almost forgot, what happened to the pre-Augustine original sin references? Sorry to bombard y'all.

 

[JCRedeems]

If you put your faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible and confess and believe in your heart he is the only begotten Son of God and died for your sins and was raised from the dead you will be saved. You are not saved by works but by grace. Jesus already did all the work.

Once you are "born again" with the Holy spirit you will want to good works in Jesus' name though you're not saved by those works.

If you eagerly seek God's face by praying and such you will find him. 100% guaranteed!

 

[Dude Abides]

I warned em. This is how you do it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425726 .

Fernando Rocker made a similar request in the OP, yet here you are, trolling the shit out of the Christians.

 

[OttomanScribe]

If you put your faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible and confess and believe in your heart he died for your sins and was raised from the dead you will be saved. You are not saved by works but by grace. Jesus already did all the work.


Once you are "born again" with the Holy spirit you will want to good works in Jesus' name though you're not saved by those works.

If you eagerly seek God's face by praying and such you will find him. 100% guaranteed!

If someone rapes and murders my family, then converts to Christianity, that 100% guarantee does not look like such a good deal.

I know that as a Muslim I am guaranteed the Garden.. but I also know that I will be punished for the bad deeds I have committed in this life. That the sin will be burnt off me. That is justice.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Fernando Rocker made a similar request in the OP, yet here you are, trolling the shit out of the Christians.

True indeed. However my replies started as a response to assertions made about my religion that I felt the need to reply to. This thread is too far gone as I see it.

That said, if any of the Christians are game to redeem the thread, I am happy to leave

 

[Mario]

If you put your faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible and confess and believe in your heart he is the only begotten Son of God and died for your sins and was raised from the dead you will be saved. You are not saved by works but by grace. Jesus already did all the work.

That's great.

But what happens to babies that don't know of Jesus, or people who haven't heard of Jesus? Neither is in a position to "have faith in Jesus".

According to Dunk#7 (or at least the links he provided), babies get a free pass into Heaven. Heathens who haven't heard the Gospel don't.

What say you JCRedeems?

 

[JCRedeems]

If someone rapes and murders my family, then converts to Christianity, that 100% guarantee does not look like such a good deal.

I know that as a Muslim I am guaranteed the Garden.. but I also know that I will be punished for the bad deeds I have committed in this life. That the sin will be burnt off me. That is justice.

Christians believe Jesus, the only begotten of Son of God who is sinless perfection, paid the price for your sins if you put your faith in him. There is no other way to the Father but through Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone. Every person has fallen short of the glory of God but Jesus is the advocate so that people can come before a perfectly holy God. Jesus said himself I am the truth, the life, and no one can come to the father but through me. He is either crazy, a liar, or telling the truth. I believe he is the Truth.

 

[JGS]

Basically, disobedience by Eve and Adam.

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19

That's what I was assuming but then I wasn't sure why that would be controversial.

 

[Dunk#7]

True indeed. However my replies started as a response to assertions made about my religion that I felt the need to reply to. This thread is too far gone as I see it.

That said, if any of the Christians are game to redeem the thread, I am happy to leave

It was fine with me. I enjoy discussing and arguing. Not sure why lol

Peace and Love Ottoman! I have nothing against you and I hope we both find the correct answers. Thank you for your questions and allowing me to respond with what I believe. really appreciate open and polite discussion.

However, I am not the creator of this thread and we are not really sticking to the concept that was laid out in the OP.

Should we create a thread dedicated to the arguments between religions? I have not been looking into the off-topic section of the forums for very long so it may simply be a thread I am not aware of.

 

[JGS]

I asked on the previous page but didn't get an answer - why does God value faith in Jesus above good works?

Jesus defines good works perfectly.

In fact, good works isn't really possible (or at least is pretty shallow) without imitating Jesus' example of it which is basically leading people to God- aka the greatest work one can do.

 

[devenger]

I see your viewpoint and I accept your view. I will not torture you any more with my argument.

Agree to disagree

Not torturous in the least, but again, that's why I'm not pushing a debate. I came in to have a question answered, and it was.

When I was a trolling atheist in my younger days, I greatly enjoyed the "What about deaf-mute babies who grow up underwater" kind of arguments, but they're silly.

Faith is faith, can't be argued. But we can share beliefs and perhaps gain insight. Hopefully, that kind of discourse is not hijacking the thread.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Jesus said himself I am the truth, the life, and no one can come to the father but through me. He is either crazy, a liar, or telling the truth. I believe he is the Truth.

There is another option. He was, like those prophets who came before him, a conveyor of the message of God. Not God. Then that message was lost in the intervening years and through the influence of those who deified him. So now you take him as a God, when you should know that he was simply a Messenger. We both believe he is the Truth, but disagree on what that means.

Of course that says nothing to what your beliefs mean for the rapist who goes unpunished through conversion to Christianity, while me, who has not since conversion to Islam committed any of the Major sins, is damned for worshipping One God, rather than your deification of the Prophet that came to your community.

It was fine with me. I enjoy discussing and arguing. Not sure why lol

This is an attribute we share methinks.

Peace and Love Ottoman! I have nothing against you and I hope we both find the correct answers. Thank you for your questions and allowing me to respond with what I believe. really appreciate open and polite discussion.

Walaykum (and upon you).

However, I am not the creator of this thread and we are not really sticking to the concept that was laid out in the OP.

Should we create a thread dedicated to the arguments between religions? I have not been looking into the off-topic section of the forums for very long so it may simply be a thread I am not aware of.

Hmm.. I think there is a Christian debate thread, we can take it there if you want? A debate about spoons can turn into a religion debate in GafOT.

 

[Dunk#7]

Not torturous in the least, but again, that's why I'm not pushing a debate. I came in to have a question answered, and it was.

When I was a trolling atheist in my younger days, I greatly enjoyed the "What about deaf-mute babies who grow up underwater" kind of arguments, but they're silly.

Faith is faith, can't be argued. But we can share beliefs and perhaps gain insight. Hopefully, that kind of discourse is not hijacking the thread.

Wise-words

Thank you for being understanding.

 

[JCRedeems]

That's great.

But what happens to babies that don't know of Jesus, or people who haven't heard of Jesus? Neither is in a position to "have faith in Jesus".

According to Dunk#7 (or at least the links he provided), babies get a free pass into Heaven. Heathens who haven't heard the Gospel don't.

What say you JCRedeems?

I don't know what happens to babies. Jesus welcomed children to himself to be blessed by him and he said the kingdom of God belongs to those as those little children. So I'm inclined to believe they are saved but I'm not going to make any dogmatic statements about it.

 

[JGS]

That's great.

But what happens to babies that don't know of Jesus, or people who haven't heard of Jesus? Neither is in a position to "have faith in Jesus".

Babies tend to face whatever their parents face.

Humans don't do the judging so it is unknowable what will happen to the ignorant as opposed to the willfully ignorant.

Faith is a requirement of followers, not of the ignorant obviously. If they aren't followers, it's Biblically pretty clear that many will get the opportunity to be one- one way or another. God has the right to kill who he wishes, but often errs on the side of second chances (not always though). So since we don't know, I like to think he will have options for those ones.

 

[Dunk#7]

There is another option. He was, like those prophets who came before him, a conveyor of the message of God. Not God. Then that message was lost in the intervening years and through the influence of those who deified him. So now you take him as a God, when you should know that he was simply a Messenger. We both believe he is the Truth, but disagree on what that means.

Of course that says nothing to what your beliefs mean for the rapist who goes unpunished through conversion to Christianity, while me, who has not since conversion to Islam committed any of the Major sins, is damned for worshipping One God, rather than your deification of the Prophet that came to your community.
.

Where does the Bible define major and minor sins?

How do you decide what is a big sin and what is a little sin?

 

[Mario]

Jesus defines good works perfectly.

In fact, good works isn't really possible (or at least is pretty shallow) without imitating Jesus' example of it which is basically leading people to God- aka the greatest work one can do.

So God judges on faith alone because there is no other basis for judgement? (in the context of works being worthless)

 

[JGS]

So God judges on faith alone because there is no other basis for judgement? (in the context of works being worthless)

God doesn't judge on faith alone.

Good works and faith are the requirements of Christians. To not have them would make one either a liar, a hypocrite, an apostate, or all of the above.

It's important that they know where they stand since they are literally the ones required to adhere to his commandments.

The ignorant people, ones who never once got the chance to hear about God and his promises, don't need faith or good works. It's impossible. However, since the Bible speaks of a ressurection of the righteous and unrighteous, we can assume that these ones at least get a shot at salvation.

The enemies of God, ones who willfully choose not to follow him, croak like normal.

Amidst all of this is the fact that no -one knows for sure who lives and who dies. We have basic guidelines that help us to stay in the clear. So ones who are following God have a pretty good assurance that they will live. Ones who are outright opposed to God or even some aspects of his right to rule, we can assume are doomed to die.

The ones in the middle like some remote tribe in the Amazon, or ones who lived prior to Jesus, or ones who were learning but died before baptism, etc...

 

[Dunk#7]

So God judges on faith alone because there is no other basis for judgement? (in the context of works being worthless)

There is another basis for judgement but you will not enjoy the outcome

The only other means to judge us by would be by our works. Since we are all sinners I do not think the outcome of that judgement would be very pretty.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Where does the Bible define major and minor sins?

How do you decide what is a big sin and what is a little sin?

I am talking about the sins within my religion that are major, a few in the following list (which is an example, I am not claiming it to be definitive) I cannot claim certainty upon. In terms of things like pride, shirk, unjust treatment, arrogance, offending people and a few others. However I haven't done any of the below, and those that I have suspected myself of doing, I have made tawbah (repentance) for. I don't say this in boastfulness, as Allah knows I am a million miles from perfect. But rather use it as an example.

01. Associating anything with Allah
02. Murder
03. Practising magic
04. Not Praying
05. Not paying Zakat
06. Not fasting on a Day of Ramadan without excuse
07. Not performing Hajj, while being able to do so
08. Disrespect to parents
09. Abandoning relatives
10. Fornication and Adultery
11. Sodomy
12. Interest(Riba)
13. Wrongfully consuming the property of an orphan
14. Lying about Allah and His Messenger
15. Running away from the battlefield
16. A leader's deceiving his people and being unjust to them
17. Pride and arrogance
18. Bearing false witness
19. Drinking Khamr (wine)
20. Gambling
21. Slandering chaste women
22. Stealing from the spoils of war
23. Stealing
24. Highway Robbery
25. Taking false oath
26. Oppression
27. Illegal gain
28. Consuming wealth acquired unlawfully
29. Committing suicide
30. Frequent lying
31. Judging unjustly
32. Giving and Accepting bribes
33. Woman's imitating man and man's imitating woman
34. Being cuckold
35. Marrying a divorced woman in order to make her lawful for the husband
36. Not protecting oneself from urine
37. Showing-off
38. Learning knowledge of the religion for the sake of this world and concealing that knowledge
39. Bertrayal of trust
40. Recounting favours
41. Denying Allah's Decree
42. Listening (to) people's private conversations
43. Carrying tales
44. Cursing others
45. Breaking contracts
46. Believing in fortune-tellers and astrologers
47. A woman's bad conduct towards her husband
48. Making statues and pictures
49. Lamenting, wailing, tearing the clothing, and doing other things of this sort when an affliction befalls
50. Treating others unjustly
51. Overbearing conduct toward the wife, the servant, the weak, and animals
52. Offending one's neighbour
53. Offending and abusing Muslims
54. Offending people and having an arrogant attitude toward them
55. Trailing one's garment in pride
56. Men's wearing silk and gold
57. A slave's running away from his master
58. Slaughtering an animal which has been dedicated to anyone other than Allah
59. To knowingly ascribe one's paternity to a father other than one's own
60. Arguing and disputing violently
61. Witholding excess water
62. Giving short weight or measure
63. Feeling secure from Allah's Plan
64. Offending Allah's righteous friends
65. Not praying in congregation but praying alone without an excuse
66. Persistently missing Friday Prayers without any excuse
67. Unsurping the rights of the heir through bequests
68. Deceiving and plotting evil
69. Spying for the enemy of the Muslims
70. Cursing or insulting any of the Companiions of Allah's Messenger

 

[Mario]

God doesn't judge on faith alone.

Christianity and it's many interpretations at work. Not what is being argued above by your "peers" (I think).

The only other means to judge us by would be by our works. Since we are all sinners I do not think the outcome of that judgement would be very pretty.

Considering we are told we are all inherently sinners without hope of salvation without Jesus, judgement on such a metric is moot given it is a test nobody can pass.

 

[jdogmoney]

If you put your faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible and confess and believe in your heart he is the only begotten Son of God and died for your sins and was raised from the dead you will be saved. You are not saved by works but by grace. Jesus already did all the work.

Once you are "born again" with the Holy spirit you will want to good works in Jesus' name though you're not saved by those works.

If you eagerly seek God's face by praying and such you will find him. 100% guaranteed!

Can I get my money back, then?


This whole good works to get into heaven argument baffles me. Surely you'd do good works just to do good?

 

[JCRedeems]

There is another option. He was, like those prophets who came before him, a conveyor of the message of God. Not God. Then that message was lost in the intervening years and through the influence of those who deified him. So now you take him as a God, when you should know that he was simply a Messenger. We both believe he is the Truth, but disagree on what that means.

Of course that says nothing to what your beliefs mean for the rapist who goes unpunished through conversion to Christianity, while me, who has not since conversion to Islam committed any of the Major sins, is damned for worshipping One God, rather than your deification of the Prophet that came to your community.



This is an attribute we share methinks.


Walaykum (and upon you).

Hmm.. I think there is a Christian debate thread, we can take it there if you want? A debate about spoons can turn into a religion debate in GafOT.

Jesus to me and many Christians is more than a messenger, he is the king of kings and lord of lords, he has all power authority on Earth and in heaven. Right now he is seated on the right side of God in heaven. Even demons know who he really is and tremble.

I have had many miraculous experiences or events all because of Jesus. And I know a lot of people who had miraculous events or experiences because of Jesus. That's why I can never deny Jesus Christ.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Jesus to me and many Christians is more than a messenger, he is the king of kings and lord of lords, he has all authority on Earth and in heaven. Right now he is seated on the right side of God in heaven. Even demons know who he really is and tremble.

I have had many miraculous experiences or events all because of Jesus. And I know a lot of people who had miraculous events or experiences because of Jesus. That's why I can never deny Jesus Christ.

Could you give me some examples?