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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.

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Dunk#7

Member
Mario said:
Christianity and it's many interpretations at work. Not what is being argued above by your "peers" (I think).

You do realize we could both still easily be correct don't you? However I am not sure if this is what the original writer meant.

He could be referring to the fact that God does not judge based on faith. He judges based on righteousness. He cannot see our sins since he is looking at them through Jesus who covers our sins.

Therefore, he is not judging based on faith he is judging based on our record, but Jesus has washed away the bad part of our record.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Dunk#7 said:
You do realize we could both still easily be correct don't you? However I am not sure if this is what the original writer meant.

He could be referring to the fact that God does not judge based on faith. He judges based on righteousness. He cannot see our sins since he is looking at them through Jesus who covers our sins.

Therefore, he is not judging based on faith he is judging based on our record, but Jesus has washed away the bad part of our record.

Semantics. You get into Heaven based on your belief of Jesus. Unless you are a baby, in which case you get a free pass. That is what you presented (JGS doesn't believe the baby part).

Though not every sect of Christianity believes that (general) position either.
 
Also random question.

Is cruelty to animals considered a sin in Christian thought? I ask because in relation to this:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) said, “While a dog was going round a well and was about to die of thirst, an Israeli prostitute saw it and took off her shoe and watered it. So Allah forgave her because of that good deed.”
and this:

It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar (radiAllahu anu) that the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) said: “A woman entered Hell because of a cat which she tied up and did not feed, nor did she allow it to eat of the vermin of the earth.”

there was a polemic by several Christians about how stupid a religion Islam was, because it advocated rewards in relation to kindness to animals, and advocated punishment for cruelty to animals.

Is cruelty to animals considered a sin in Christianity?
 

Dunk#7

Member
Mario said:
Semantics. You get into Heaven based on your belief of Jesus. Unless you are a baby, in which case you get a free pass. That is what you presented (JGS doesn't believe the baby part).

Though not every sect of Christianity believes that (general) position either.

You are correct. As the Bible does not directly address that issue.

It is open to interpretation based on a few verses. The links I posted on the previous couple pages of this argument list those verses. I believe these verses support my view.

However I cannot say with 100% certainty.
 

JCRedeems

Banned
OttomanScribe said:
Could you give me some examples?

Well, my "born again" experience when I was about 14 years old was a supernatural miracle. After I read one of the four Gospel I got on my knees and believed in my heart and confessed Jesus was the only Son of God and died for my sins and was raised from the dead and then immediately the inside of me I was changed. I was given the Holy Spirit and it was like my eyes were open and the scriptures were alive and became hungry for God's word. This separation I had with God was erased. His presence was intense. I started preaching the Jesus to my friends which was totally out of my character.

Years later I kind of backslid. I remember one time I was at a bus station waiting for the bus I thought to myself I miss having relationship with God through Jesus and I thought he left me. This small hispanic woman about 40 feet away fron who was talking to the air (I thought she was crazy) walked towards me and said in a thick Mexican accent (I'm paraphrasing here) "don't worry, God said he's still with you." I was shocked out of my shoes.

I also had many prayers answered, sometimes miracuously, praying in Jesus' name. I think to myself: wow, that was awesome!

Jesus Christ of the Bible is the real deal. I have absolutely no doubt. Everything he said is absolutely true. He doesn't lie.
 
OttomanScribe said:
Also random question.

Is cruelty to animals considered a sin in Christian thought? I ask because in relation to this:


and this:



there was a polemic by several Christians about how stupid a religion Islam was, because it advocated rewards in relation to kindness to animals, and advocated punishment for cruelty to animals.

Is cruelty to animals considered a sin in Christianity?

Well... about the animals, we have complete dominion over them:

And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Genesis 1:28

So... we can eat meat, use fur, leather... without problems.

Animals were created for us to enjoy, so protecting a remnant for others to enjoy is also proper. Proverbs 12:10 tells us, "A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."
 

Safe Bet

Banned
JCRedeems said:
If you put your faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible and confess and believe in your heart he is the only begotten Son of God and died for your sins and was raised from the dead you will be saved. You are not saved by works but by grace. Jesus already did all the work.
on his deathbed a life-long child raper accepts christ and gets a ticket to heaven

/eyeroll

sorry but no...

words aint enough
 
Safe Bet said:
on his deathbed a life-long child raper accepts christ and gets a ticket to heaven

/eyeroll

sorry but no...

words aint enough

I don't think you could fool God though... unless he is really and truly repented from his heart. And only God knows what is in our hearts.

Plus, we should not judge others.
 

Dunk#7

Member
Safe Bet said:
on his deathbed a life-long child raper accepts christ and gets a ticket to heaven

/eyeroll

It may be a little hard to digest, but me and you are no better than that lifelong child raper.

In our finite view of the world this seems ridiculous because we generally feel that there should be levels of sin, however this is not what the Bible teaches.

A bad thought is equivalent to what you described above.
 

jdogmoney

Member
Dunk#7 said:
It may be a little hard to digest, but me and you are no better than that lifelong child raper.

In our finite view of the world this seems ridiculous because we generally feel that there should be levels of sin, however this is not what the Bible teaches.

A bad thought is equivalent to what you described above.

And this is why the entire system is wrong.
 

Chaplain

Member
The following commentary on the first 11 verses of John answer many of the questions asked in the last 50 posts or so:

John 1:1 (a)
In the beginning…

John marks the beginning of Jesus’ life as an event that took place before the beginning of eternity. “In the beginning was the Word”—not “at the beginning,” not “from the beginning,” but “in the beginning,” Jesus was already there.

John 1:1 (b)
…was the Word…

John’s use of the Greek word logos is important. The Greeks had developed a philosophy articulated by Plato and others that was built upon the assumption that the logos, the word, was the foundation of everything on earth. The earth, Plato said, was simply a shadow of the reality of the logos that existed somewhere in the heavens. The Jews took the Greek concept of the logos one step further. Whereas Plato said behind everything there’s a perfect thought (logos), the Jews said that behind the thought there must be a thinker.

“We don’t see perfection (logos) here on earth, but it must exist somewhere,” said the Greek.
“Yes. And if there is a true, perfect thought (logos), there must be a true, perfect thinker,” added the Hebrew.

John bursts into the middle of this discussion, saying, “In the beginning was the Logos, the Word, God—not just a philosophy but a Personality. In the beginning was the Logos—the perfection and the Thinker.”

John 1:1 (c)
…and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Hebrew word for God in Genesis 1:1 is Elohim, a word that speaks of three or more. The use of Elohim way back in Genesis hints at the mystery of the Trinity. Its use by John reiterates the reality of the Trinity.

John 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

Contrary to the teaching of most cults, Jesus was not the first Created Being. He was already present in the beginning. He has always existed.

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Our sun is big—so big that 1,300,000 of our earths could fit inside. It is small, however, compared to Anteres, a star in our galaxy. Anteres is so big that 64 of our suns could fit inside of it. But Anteres is a relatively dinky star. Hercules is a big star. 110,000,000 Anteres could fit inside Hercules. So, 110 million Anteres, each big enough to hold 64 of our suns, which are big enough to hold 1,300,000 of our earths could fit into Hercules.

When we realize this, it is clear that on this planet, we are nothing more than specks on a speck in a speck. And yet most of the time we think we’re pretty “speck-tacular,” don’t we? Now, put down your telescope, pick up your microscope, and consider a drop of water, which is equally amazing.

If you think back to junior-high science class, you’ll recall that each molecule of water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. If you were able to enlarge each of the atoms in only a single drop of water to the size of a grain of sand, you would have enough sand to make a slab of concrete one foot thick and one half-mile high, stretching from San Francisco to New York City.

Of Jesus, Paul said, “All things were created by Him” (see Colossians 1:16). Scientists call the atomic force that holds together the nucleus of the atom “atomic glue.” The Bible, however, identifies this mysterious atomic glue as Jesus Christ, for “by Him all things consist, or hold together” (Colossians 1:17). There is coming a day when Jesus will let go of His hold on the atom. And the result will be chaos and utter devastation (2 Peter 3:10, 11). But in this day of grace, He continues to hold the galaxies, the atoms, and our lives together. Why do you exist today? You were made by Him. You were made for Him. And if you don’t give your life to Him, like errant atoms you’ll fall apart. Life won’t make sense. You’ll wonder what you’re doing, where you’re going, and why you’re living. The secret of life is found here in the prologue of John. All things were made by Him.

John 1:4, 5
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The Greek word translated “comprehend” can mean either “extinguish” or “understand.” Both meanings are applicable in this verse, for the darkness could neither understand nor extinguish Jesus. For three hours, the earth was darkened when it seemed the Light of the World was extinguished (Matthew 27:45). But three days later, He was back—to shine in our hearts as the Bright and Morning Star (Revelation 22:16), the Dayspring From on High (Luke 1:78).

John 1:6
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Here, John the apostle introduces us to John the Baptist. As a prophet, John the Baptist spoke to people on behalf of God. As a priest (Luke 1:5), he spoke to God on behalf of the people. That’s what ministry is all about. Ministry is both prophetic and priestly—talking to people about God and talking to God about people.

John 1:7 (a)
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light that all men through him might believe.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). The desire of God’s heart is that not one person should die without knowing Him. Think of the person who bugs and irritates you the most. Did you know that our Lord is madly in love with him, and desires that he be saved? I personally reject the ultra-Calvinistic teaching that says God has already determined that some are born to be damned. The Scripture says John was sent for a witness that all through him might believe. The word “all” in Greek is an interesting one. It means “all”!

John 1:8
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

At the time John wrote his Gospel, in A.D. 75 or so, people were already beginning to worship John the Baptist. We see the same thing happening today with the Baha’i mentality that teaches there are many men of equal greatness. Jesus is good, it says. So is John the Baptist, Moses, Buddha, and Mohammed. The apostle John wanted to nip this idea in the bud. Thus, at the very outset of his Gospel, he makes it crystal clear that John the Baptist was not Jesus’ equal.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

At the end of time, no one will be able to say that he didn’t have an opportunity to know that there is a God. The Light has come, and it lights every man who comes into the world. Romans 1 tells us that creation around us is a testimony to God’s reality and that our conscience within us verifies His truth. Psalm 19 states that the heavens declare the glory of God, and that there is no place on earth where their voice is not heard. Thus, whether a man looks up to the sky, around at creation, or within his own heart, he is left without excuse regarding the existence of his Creator. Every man knows innately, intuitively that there is a God. I firmly believe that if there is someone in the most remote corner of the earth who is hungering and thirsting after a saving knowledge of God, God will do whatever it takes to contact that one. He may choose to speak to him through an angel, a miracle, or through… you. If you’re concerned about lost people and God’s ability to reach them, don’t stay here and discuss the ramifications of predestination. Go tell them Jesus died for them! You may be the very messenger the Lord uses to reach one who is waiting to hear the gospel.

John 1:10, 11
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

The first time the Greek word translated “his own” is used in this verse, it is in a neuter form, referring to creation. The second time, it is masculine, referring to humanity. In other words, Jesus came into this world, and all of creation acknowledged Him. The winds obeyed Him. The water supported Him. The rocks were ready to cry out to Him. But there was one segment of creation that received Him not: man. Human nature is the only part of nature that refuses to worship God.

When the Bulls and the Blazers play basketball, people in the stands go crazy. They lift their hands in the air victoriously, clap exuberantly, and cheer wildly. They stand, yell, and stomp their feet. And they won’t care who sees them. The same thing happens at rock concerts and hockey games, beauty pageants and rodeos. Humanity creatively and radically worships with abandon. But when it comes to worshiping Jesus, arms fold, voices hush, and sitting becomes the position of choice. Our culture finds it very easy to worship sports, movie, or rock stars—but has great difficulty worshiping Jesus.

Application Commentary. Nashville, TN : Thomas Nelson, 2003, S. 435
 
Dunk#7 said:
It may be a little hard to digest, but me and you are no better than that lifelong child raper.
Wow.
In our finite view of the world this seems ridiculous because we generally feel that there should be levels of sin, however this is not what the Bible teaches.

A bad thought is equivalent to what you described above.
Not in my religion it is not. A bad thought, save disbelief, is of benefit. If one thinks upon a good deed, then acts upon it, they get between 10 and infinite good deeds. If one thinks upon a good deed, and does not do it, they get one good deed. If one thinks upon a bad deed, and does not do it, they get one good deed. If one thinks upon a bad deed, then does it, they get one bad deed to their name.

I believe that there is a clear distinction between minor and major sins, and a discernible hierarchy within that. Not all deeds are the same, either in intention or effect.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Game Analyst said:
The following commentary on the first 11 verses of John answer many of the questions asked in the last 50 posts or so:

How does that answer anything in the last 50 posts?

Also, you should try contributing your own words and thoughts rather than cutting and pasting someone else's words almost every time.
 
Mario said:
How does that answer anything in the last 50 posts?

Also, you should try contributing your own words and thoughts rather than cutting and pasting someone else's words almost every time.

What's wrong with posting what other people have said?

I certainly don't have time right now to search on the Internet... I appreciate those copy / pastes.
 

Dunk#7

Member
OttomanScribe said:
Wow.

Not in my religion it is not. A bad thought, save disbelief, is of benefit. If one thinks upon a good deed, then acts upon it, they get between 10 and infinite good deeds. If one thinks upon a good deed, and does not do it, they get one good deed. If one thinks upon a bad deed, and does not do it, they get one good deed. If one thinks upon a bad deed, then does it, they get one bad deed to their name.

I believe that there is a clear distinction between minor and major sins, and a discernible hierarchy within that. Not all deeds are the same, either in intention or effect.


That scale seems to be swayed in the direction of good deeds.

Good thought + Good deed = 10-infinity good deeds

Bad thought + Bad deed = 1 bad deed

Why isn't a bad thought plus a bad deed equal to 10-infinity bad deeds?
 
Fernando Rocker said:
What's wrong with posting what other people have said?

I certainly don't have time right now to search on the Internet... I appreciate those copy / pastes.
They come off as a massive wall of text, which I am not inclined to read as they do not seem to be part of the conversation that is going on, the equivalent of reading from a book at random in the midst of a debate. I appreciate links given in support, or short quotes, but a WoT without someone's own input is not really inclined to endear me to anyone's arguments.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Fernando Rocker said:
What's wrong with posting what other people have said?

Because generally Game Analyst responds to questions or challenges with walls of copy and paste text which don't even address the question or challenge directly most of the time. He doesn't even bother to refine the quote or be specific about how such a reference addresses the raised issue, instead making some vague "this is all you need to know" comment.

Case in point, the post I made that comment for.
 
Dunk#7 said:
That scale seems to be swayed in the direction of good deeds.

Good thought + Good deed = 10-infinity good deeds

Bad thought + Bad deed = 1 bad deed

Why isn't a bad thought plus a bad deed equal to 10-infinity bad deeds?
This is a function of the Grace of God. Were the scale to be even, we would be in deep deep trouble.

Why is a bad thought a bad deed? I know that Jesus (alayhis salaam) apparently said that looking upon someone with lust was equivalent to adultery, but the looking is an act. How can me thinking about lying logically be the equivalent to murder?
 

Dunk#7

Member
OttomanScribe said:
Wow.

Not in my religion it is not. A bad thought, save disbelief, is of benefit. If one thinks upon a good deed, then acts upon it, they get between 10 and infinite good deeds. If one thinks upon a good deed, and does not do it, they get one good deed. If one thinks upon a bad deed, and does not do it, they get one good deed. If one thinks upon a bad deed, then does it, they get one bad deed to their name.

I believe that there is a clear distinction between minor and major sins, and a discernible hierarchy within that. Not all deeds are the same, either in intention or effect.


Also, you could easily be racking up good deeds all day long.

Just sit there and think of bad deeds as fast as you can. As long as you do not act on those thoughts you could add a lot to your account very quickly.
 

The Lamp

Member
OttomanScribe said:
This is a function of the Grace of God. Were the scale to be even, we would be in deep deep trouble.

Why is a bad thought a bad deed? I know that Jesus (alayhis salaam) apparently said that looking upon someone with lust was equivalent to adultery, but the looking is an act. How can me thinking about lying logically be the equivalent to murder?


Thinking about lying (in other words, deciding whether to lie or not) is not a sin. That is probably what is classified as a temptation, the devil tempting you to lie, and you now choose whether to do it or not.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Dunk#7 said:
Also, you could easily be racking up good deeds all day long.

Just sit there and think of bad deeds as fast as you can. As long as you do not act on those thoughts you could add a lot to your account very quickly.

At least the system promotes good deeds, even if heavily biased that way.

The system you describe doesn't promote good deeds at all. Nor discourage bad deeds.

Sounds like Islam is easy to game the system, but I'd prefer a world based on that system to a Christian "get out of jail free" card based one (all other things aside).
 
Mario said:
Semantics. You get into Heaven based on your belief of Jesus. Unless you are a baby, in which case you get a free pass. That is what you presented (JGS doesn't believe the baby part).

Though not every sect of Christianity believes that (general) position either.
not true. salvation without repentance is dead.

OttomanScribe said:
This is a function of the Grace of God. Were the scale to be even, we would be in deep deep trouble.

Why is a bad thought a bad deed? I know that Jesus (alayhis salaam) apparently said that looking upon someone with lust was equivalent to adultery, but the looking is an act. How can me thinking about lying logically be the equivalent to murder?

because God judges the heart of a man. looking is fine. looking at a woman with lust is equivalent to adultery. there's a distinct difference.
 
Dunk#7 said:
Also, you could easily be racking up good deeds all day long.

Just sit there and think of bad deeds as fast as you can. As long as you do not act on those thoughts you could add a lot to your account very quickly.
You could indeed, though if you had that kind of faith and dedication, instead you could do dhikr (remembrance of God) and gain a far greater reward through the same minimal effort. Both would be considered an act of worship. Though of course it is easy to say that one would just sit around all day doing such a thing. This is rarely the reality, people are too concerned with dunya (this realm of deception) for that.

I know few Christians who pray for more than 20 or 10 minutes a day. The idea that someone would sit around trying to gain the mercy of God through thinking about bad deeds and then not committing them (one has to actually be in a position to consider them), would still show someone who put more effort into their worship than is normal, certainly for modern society.

Thinking about lying (in other words, deciding whether to lie or not) is not a sin. That is probably what is classified as a temptation, the devil tempting you to lie, and you now choose whether to do it or not.
What then does he mean by a 'bad thought'? Getting angry?
 
Speaking of Good and Evil, maybe you guys can help with something that's been a problem for me lately.

I've been reading "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. Its a basic history of monotheism and its evolution over time as well as the major schools of thought and experience that led various religions to schism.

The part that's bothering me is that all monotheistic religions seemed to have agreed at one point or another that God is completely Good, and Benevolent.

Now I can understand how one can appreciate a creator for making all of this, and the world is indeed filled with gifts and blessings when you take a moment to look and listen, but it is also filled with death and woe and calamity. Isn't it natural to see God as both Good and Evil or something beyond both of those ideas? Isn't defining God as positively "Good" inherently limiting the conception of God? And just what is the natural evidence that God is benevolent and good?

If I look to the world I see a God who gives blessings as well as destruction and sorrow. Am I expected to see all of this as good? Honestly, I don't get it.

I have seen one argument that states that God is the ultimate source of morality, thus God has to be good, because he is the definition of Good. That's a flimsy line of thought in my opinion, since if anything God does is inherently good because he does it, the entire idea of Good loses any meaning whatsoever.

Maybe you guys can shine some light on this conundrum for me?
 
NullPointer said:
Speaking of Good and Evil, maybe you guys can help with something that's been a problem for me lately.

I've been reading "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. Its a basic history of monotheism and its evolution over time as well as the major schools of thought and experience that led various religions to schism.

The part that's bothering me is that all monotheistic religions seemed to have agreed at one point or another that God is completely Good, and Benevolent.

Now I can understand how one can appreciate a creator for making all of this, and the world is indeed filled with gifts and blessings when you take a moment to look and listen, but it is also filled with death and woe and calamity. Isn't it natural to see God as both Good and Evil or something beyond both of those ideas? Isn't defining God as positively "Good" inherently limiting the conception of God? And just what is the natural evidence that God is benevolent and good?

If I look to the world I see a God who gives blessings as well as destruction and death. Am I expected to see all of this as good? Honestly, I don't get it.

I have seen one argument that states that God is the ultimate source of morality, thus God has to be good, because he is the definition of Good. That's a flimsy line of thought in my opinion, since if anything God does is inherently good because he does it, the entire idea of Good loses any meaning whatsoever.

Maybe you guys can shine some light on this conundrum for me?
I respect Karen Armstrong but I disagree with many of her characterisations of Islamic understandings.

God is good in that He is the one who defines good. However He has many attributes that are not concerned with 'goodness' per se. He is the bringer of Death, the Judge, the one who Debases. He is not some old man in the sky that one can cozy up to and call a 'friend'. He is the Exalted and Most Merciful, but He is not confined to His Mercy.
 

Dunk#7

Member
viakado said:
not true. salvation without repentance is dead.

When the Bible speaks of repentance during salvation it is referring to the fact that you must have a change of heart/mind and turn from your disbelief.

The definition of repentance is simply to have a change of mind.

Your salvation does not depend upon your actions before or after being saved. If you try to claim that there are also works required then you are basically saying that what Jesus did was not good enough to cover what you did/will do.


James 2:26 says that faith without works is dead, but what James is talking about is that dead faith produces no works. The context of the chapter begins in verse 14 where James says, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” Notice that James asks, “can that faith save him?" The faith he is talking about is false faith, which he further clarifies when he mentions how the devil also believes in God (v. 19). The Devil has dead faith. He only acknowledges God’s existence.

http://http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-faith-works
 
Dunk#7 said:
When the Bible speaks of repentance during salvation it is referring to the fact that you must have a change of heart/mind and turn from your disbelief.

The definition of repentance is simply to have a change of mind.

Your salvation does not depend upon your actions before or after being saved. If you try to claim that there are also works required then you are basically saying that what Jesus did was not good enough to cover what you did/will do.
if you accept christ as your messiah, the next thing one should do is repent.
if you dont repent then you really aren't accepting Jesus as your Lord and therefore your belief in him wont matter.
hell, even fallen angels believe in the Jesus as the messiah, but belief alone wont save them.
 

JCRedeems

Banned
On a different note...

I used to wrongly think that natural disasters were random but not anymore. I truly believe they serve a divine purpose.

Check this out. There is a direct correlation between natural disasters and nations meddling with the country of Israel. A lot of times it happens within 24 hours from the U.S. pressuring Israel. This goes back to God’s promise to Abraham that he will bless the nations that bless his descendants and curse the nations that curse his descendants. Nations, especially through the UN, keep meddling with Israel trying to divide its land. But how can Bible prophecy be fulfilled if this continues? It’s apparent Satan is behind this.

I believe one of the reasons why the U.S. is so prosperous (though it is declining) is because of its support of Israel. But many times U.S. had direct involvement with dividing its land or supporting its enemies and within 24 hours a huge natural disaster strikes the U.S. Time after time after time this has happened.

The reason I bring this up is because Obama and Europe are planning to push for a Israel/Palestinian peace plan through the UN by September. I really expect divine punishment if Obama goes through with this. Something disastrously huge is going to happen!

http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=217428

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-4059643,00.html

If you don’t believe this then I urge to look at the following links. I was sort of skeptical at first but they were just too many “coincidences” to try to explain it away. And yes, there are scriptures that backs this up.

Here is a list of several examples of the correlations of natural disasters and the U.S. meddling with Israel http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/tenmajorevents.htm

You can watch Pastor John Muncy speak about it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r3PN1woHhM Part 1 of 9 (really awesome sermon! Please watch all parts. I strongly urge you to watch this).

John Mcternan has a book about the “coincidences” http://www.amazon.com/dp/160034545X/?tag=neogaf0e-20

He also has a blog that I frequent http://johnmcternansinsights.blogspot.com/

Here he talks about it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1PdKirSj_8

Also check out this link of John Mcternan talking about what happens if America divides Israel using the book of Obadiah from the Bible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evhA2qEqu7c&feature=related Part 1 of 3. Please watch all parts.

I wouldn't doubt something really horrible is going to happen this September as judgment for messing with Israel. If Obama goes through with this September ultimatum "peace plan" for Israel then woe to the U.S.

I'm curious to read feedback by Christians on this. If you only have time to watch one video I urge you to watch the John Muncy sermon.
 
OttomanScribe said:
God is good in that He is the one who defines good. However He has many attributes that are not concerned with 'goodness' per se. He is the bringer of Death, the Judge, the one who Debases. He is not some old man in the sky that one can cozy up to and call a 'friend'. He is the Exalted and Most Merciful, but He is not confined to His Mercy.
That makes some sense, because God is the source of all things, so he is the very root of Goodness. But he's also the root of everything else including sorrow and disaster, so why the emphasis on Goodness?

Not that I'm complaining that people would seek to be good, but it seems dishonest to describe God in terms that focus specifically on the good, merciful and benevolent without taking those other aspects into account.

I guess I'm trying to find the crux of this idea and what thought is used to justify it.
 

The Lamp

Member
viakado said:
not true. salvation without repentance is dead.

One is supposed to go with the other.

If you believe Jesus died for your sins, you're supposed to have a repentant heart towards your sin. If you're not truly repentant, you didn't really make any commitment to Christ. If you are saved, the Holy Spirit is said to come inside you.
 

Dunk#7

Member
viakado said:
if you accept christ as your messiah, the next thing one should do is repent.
if you dont repent then you really aren't accepting Jesus as your Lord and therefore your belief in him wont matter.


Yes, but you are misunderstanding the word repent. You are already repenting simply by turning from your disbelief.


James 2:26 says that faith without works is dead, but what James is talking about is that dead faith produces no works. The context of the chapter begins in verse 14 where James says, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” Notice that James asks, “can that faith save him?" The faith he is talking about is false faith, which he further clarifies when he mentions how the devil also believes in God (v. 19). The Devil has dead faith. He only acknowledges God’s existence.


http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-faith-works
 
That makes some sense, because God is the source of all things, so he is the very root of Goodness. But he's also the root of everything else including sorrow and disaster, so why emphasis on Goodness?

Not that I'm complaining that people would seek to be good, but it seems dishonest to describe God in terms that focus specifically on the good, merciful and benevolent without taking those other aspects into account.

I guess I'm trying to find the crux of this idea and what thought is used to justify it.

I don't think there is any undue emphasis, other than one of the main ways that we interact with and worship God is through attributes like Mercy and Compassion. His other attributes are less about interaction than being acted upon.
Check this out. There is a direct correlation between natural disasters and nations meddling with the country of Israel. A lot of times it happens within 24 hours from the U.S. pressuring Israel. This goes back to God’s promise to Abraham that he will bless the nations that bless his descendants and curse the nations that curse his descendants. Nations, especially through the UN, keep meddling with Israel trying to divide its land. But how can Bible prophecy be fulfilled if this continues? It’s apparent Satan is behind this.
Israel laughs all the way to the bank with this. Fooling Christians into supporting their viscous state. You have to be trolling me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36r8eSmpGx4
Sounds like a state that Christians should support to me *looks sceptical*
 
Dunk#7 said:
Yes, but you are misunderstanding the word repent. You are already repenting simply by turning from your disbelief.


James 2:26 says that faith without works is dead, but what James is talking about is that dead faith produces no works. The context of the chapter begins in verse 14 where James says, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” Notice that James asks, “can that faith save him?" The faith he is talking about is false faith, which he further clarifies when he mentions how the devil also believes in God (v. 19). The Devil has dead faith. He only acknowledges God’s existence.


http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-faith-works
Dunk is correct in this conversation.

As is said, works will not save a man, but a saved man will work.
 
Dunk#7 said:
Yes, but you are misunderstanding the word repent. You are already repenting simply by turning from your disbelief.


James 2:26 says that faith without works is dead, but what James is talking about is that dead faith produces no works. The context of the chapter begins in verse 14 where James says, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” Notice that James asks, “can that faith save him?" The faith he is talking about is false faith, which he further clarifies when he mentions how the devil also believes in God (v. 19). The Devil has dead faith. He only acknowledges God’s existence.


http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-faith-works
i know what repentance means. its a change of mind about your sins.
but like i said, belief alone wont give you salvation.

Dreams-Visions said:
Dunk is correct in this conversation.

As is said, works will not save a man, but a saved man will work.
a repentant heart is different from works.
works from faith determines your rewards in heaven
 

JGS

Banned
Mario said:
Christianity and it's many interpretations at work. Not what is being argued above by your "peers" (I think).
I figured. I expanded on that very brief statement. I didn't mean to post so early then I got busy.

Admittedly, Christianity is weird in that there are so many views. That's not entirely unusual with belief or philosophies overall I suppose. In particular this one is tough because there's no particular answer in the Bible beyond what is written and what is written is based on different groups of people.

In the grand scheme, it's irrelevant since the ultimate goal is to be a worshipper (The main guarantee for salvation) and not merely a survivor. However, knowing for sure does bring a certain peace of mind and solidifies faith in God's actions.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
JCRedeems said:
Check this out. There is a direct correlation between natural disasters and nations meddling with the country of Israel.

Confirmation bias?

There are disasters happening all the time (including before Israel as a modern nation existed). Finding a correlation between their occurence and anything is likely to be easy.


JGS said:
I figured. I expanded on that very brief statement. I didn't mean to post so early then I got busy.

Admittedly, Christianity is weird in that there are so many views. That's not entirely unusual with belief or philosophies overall I suppose. In particular this one is tough because there's no particular answer in the Bible beyond what is written and what is written is based on different groups of people.

In the grand scheme, it's irrelevant since the ultimate goal is to be a worshipper (The main guarantee for salvation) and not merely a survivor. However, knowing for sure does bring a certain peace of mind and solidifies faith in God's actions.

Translating from a book from a time thousands of years ago across language and cultural barriers mixed with politics and circumstance is going to do that.

Still, 38,000+ different sects of Christianity sure is a lot of splintering, and there are so many "Christian" answers to the same question depending on who you ask.

I believe you have never disclosed your own flavour of Christianity, and for the life of me I've never been able to work it out. Not that that really matters other than perhaps to shortcircuit some questions.
 
Have fun guys, I'm off to bed in a little bit. Sunrise is in half an hour. If I have offended any of you with my late night ramblings, I seek your forgiveness.
Peace.
 

jdogmoney

Member
JCRedeems said:
On a different note...

I used to wrongly think that natural disasters were random but not anymore. I truly believe they serve a divine purpose.

Meaning god murders innocents...to teach a lesson about politics?
 
Mario said:
Confirmation bias?

There are disasters happening all the time (including before Israel as a modern nation existed). Finding a correlation between their occurence and anything is likely to be easy.
You'd think if this was the case it would you know.. happen to Iran, Iraq and Syria. When in fact the only significant earthquake in the ME happened to Turkey, which was at the time an ally of Israel. Since their distancing themselves from Israel, there has not been any earthquakes....

I think he might be trolling.
 

Dunk#7

Member
viakado said:
i know what repentance means. its a change of mind about your sins.
but like i said, belief alone wont give you salvation.


a repentant heart is different from works.
works from faith determines your rewards in heaven


I think we are saying the same thing just mixing up terminology lol

I think you are getting into making sure it is not dead faith. Because the Bible says even the demons believe and tremble.

You do have to have repentance in terms of having a change of mind and a fully acknowledging what Jesus has done for you. However, this repentance is not in the form of any actions and/or works.
 

Dunk#7

Member
OttomanScribe said:
Have fun guys, I'm off to bed in a little bit. Sunrise is in half an hour. If I have offended any of you with my late night ramblings, I seek your forgiveness.
Peace.

Nice talking with you.

I appreciate your views and questions. Until next time. Goodnight.
 
Dunk#7 said:
I think we are saying the same thing just mixing up terminology lol

I think you are getting into making sure it is not dead faith. Because the Bible says even the demons believe and tremble.

You do have to have repentance in terms of having a change of mind and a fully acknowledging what Jesus has done for you. However, this repentance is not in the form of any actions and/or works.
correct, repentance is not a form of works. and yes we are saying the same thing.
i was implying dead faith (belief alone) wont give you salvation
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
viakado said:
correct, repentance is not a form of works. and yes we are saying the same thing.
i was implying dead faith (belief alone) wont give you salvation

Doesn't meaningfully affect the point I was making.
 

JCRedeems

Banned
viakado said:
i know what repentance means. its a change of mind about your sins.
but like i said, belief alone wont give you salvation.


a repentant heart is different from works.
works from faith determines your rewards in heaven

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
 

tekumseh

a mass of phermones, hormones and adrenaline just waiting to explode
Safe Bet said:
on his deathbed a life-long child raper accepts christ and gets a ticket to heaven

/eyeroll

sorry but no...

words aint enough

Ultimately, sin is sin. In that regard, a legitimate deathbed conversion, whether for a life of abhorrent behavior or one episode of something else, would, according to the bible, be worthy...
 
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