Support NeoGAF

[Chaplain]

Romans 13 - A Christian’s Obligation to Government

 

[Chaplain]

1 Corinthians 1 - Jesus, the Wisdom of God

 

[Chaplain]

Subjects that are discussed in this study:

How to tell if you are are a carnal christian (still controlled by your sinful nature) or not.
Our bodies are the temple of God.
What does it mean to be holy?
What are God’s mysteries?
We are not required to be successful—only faithful in doing what God says.
One of Satan’s favorite tactics is to get Christians involved in immorality.
How to turn a believer over to Satan who does not want to repent.
We are not to associate with Christians who knowingly, obstinately, perpetually practices sinning.
We are not to judge unbelievers because God takes care of the world’s iniquity.

1 Corinthians 3

 

[Tawpgun]

Question to Christian GAF.

How much of the bible do you believe is literal truth?

Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, Earth created in 7 days only a few thousand years ago, the actual resurrection and miracles, Old Testament shenanigans, etc.

Not trying to troll bait or cause anything, just wanted to know since I was raised Roman Catholic and my CCD teacher said the bible is the literal truth but I have another friend who was raised roman catholic and he said that they didn't say its all literal truth.

 

[JGS]

Question to Christian GAF.

How much of the bible do you believe is literal truth?

Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, Earth created in 7 days only a few thousand years ago, the actual resurrection and miracles, Old Testament shenanigans, etc.

This is an [unintentionally] trick question.

All of the Bible is truth, but the Bible itself never indicates that all of it is literal including the creation accounts although Adam & Eve are assumed to be literal. They have never been described as anything but that.

Also, the Bible was written by men who were products of their time and so the writings reflect that fact. They aren't meant to know more than what they are accustomed too.

As a result, the Scriptures mention nothing of evolution since the writers didn't know what that was nor was it important, so it's not fair to assume that evolution could not be factored into creation (Abiogenesis remains garbage though).

The flood is a little different. Again, I have no doubts that the writers were aware of a massive flood that spawned numerous legends outside the Bible & across civilizations. It being global is personally tough for me to see as a likelihood.

I believe miracles are possible, just not common - which was the case even in Bible times.

 

[JGS]

I was snooping around after someone posted a Pew link in another thread and came up with this:

http://pewforum.org/Many-Americans-Say-Other-Faiths-Can-Lead-to-Eternal-Life.aspx

A majority of all American Christians (52%) think that at least some non-Christian faiths can lead to eternal life. Indeed, among Christians who believe many religions can lead to eternal life, 80% name at least one non-Christian faith that can do so. These are among the key findings of a national survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life from July 31-Aug. 10, 2008, among 2,905 adults.

Now at first I was thinking that this study and my view were hand in hand but then i realized that's not quite true since I don't believe that other faiths can lead to eternal life. Actually I believe ones of other faiths can gain eternal life which leaves the other religion's belief out of it.

Thought it was interesting.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Police are God's servants sent to protect people from evil people.

the childlike naivety is so astounding, so unbelievable, it can only be a joke or something a parent tells to a child.

 

[Fedos]

I was snooping around after someone posted a Pew link in another thread and came up with this:

http://pewforum.org/Many-Americans-Say-Other-Faiths-Can-Lead-to-Eternal-Life.aspx


Now at first I was thinking that this study and my view were hand in hand but then i realized that's not quite true since I don't believe that other faiths can lead to eternal life. Actually I believe ones of other faiths can gain eternal life which leaves the other religion's belief out of it.

Thought it was interesting.

I believe based on a passage from Romans that if you have never heard of the Gospel or the name of Jesus that God will judge you based on your conscience, something that everyone has.

 

[Wrestlemania]

the childlike naivety is so astounding, so unbelievable, it can only be a joke or something a parent tells to a child.

Game Analyst is the person I genuinely find the most unsettling on the forum. His posts in this thread fascinate me.

 

[Tawpgun]

As a result, the Scriptures mention nothing of evolution since the writers didn't know what that was nor was it important, so it's not fair to assume that evolution could not be factored into creation (Abiogenesis remains garbage though).

Aww man, don't say that.

We have many theories and plenty of evidence. Constantly looking for more. This is the problem with Religion in general, is if a question is too hard to answer you just say God and move on.

Tell me this, would you agree on my standpoint that Religion should be a purely personal thing. That as a collective whole, humanity needs to be secular.

 

[YoungHav]

Another question, what is in heaven? Personal happiness or praising God 24/7 for infinity? What if ones idea of happiness isn't PC? What if I want to date Cleopatra and make love to her for 4 centuries? Why is that frowned upon?

If a person loses 3 spouses to death and dies while married to their 4th, who is their spouse in heaven?

It's silent primarily because their loved one isn't burning in Hell to be talked to.

The dead and the living don't communicate with each other since, Scripturally, the dead know nothing.

No I meant if "A's" loved ones are bad people, "A" turns to Christ, and all parties die... wouldn't "A" want to communicate with those he loved? What's heaven without friends and family? If I found out my dad was a serial killer, and he got killed by police before coming to justice and went to hell, I'd still love him and would want to speak to him in the afterlife anyway, whether I'm in heaven and he's in hell.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Game Analyst is the person I genuinely find the most unsettling on the forum. His posts in this thread fascinate me.

I can respect other peoples viewpoints, but some of these things are their references and 'support' are so, so, so, so empty and just... wow. That one in particular made my jaw drop as people out there actually believe that.

this isn't about religion, or Christianity, just that type of stuff.

 

[JGS]

Aww man, don't say that.

We have many theories and plenty of evidence. Constantly looking for more. This is the problem with Religion in general, is if a question is too hard to answer you just say God and move on.

Tell me this, would you agree on my standpoint that Religion should be a purely personal thing. That as a collective whole, humanity needs to be secular.

Sorry, I can't help it. There is no evidence to support abiogenesis that wasn't cooked up in someone's mind. I'm not trying to be rude about it, I just don't appreciate the notion that just because I think there are beings out there that are more powerful than people, that it is rubbish while another unlikely scenario is presented as fact when there are no facts to support it.

Tell me this, would you agree on my standpoint that Religion should be a purely personal thing. That as a collective whole, humanity needs to be secular.

I don' think religion should be a personal thing. Most religions and particularly Christianity is founded on the notion of sharing it. The danger is the greater the possibility that deviations arise which is exactly what happened with Christianity and other religions.

However, I do think the world should be secular because that is the only way that religion is allowed to flourish. Religion does not flourish when it's forced or when a country relies on a dominant form of it. The individuals that make up the world though should/should be allowed to have some measure of spirituality because to not have it would be deny what most people naturally feel.

Basically, religion is not something to be discouraged and of course my bias is toward Christianity so that's the primary one I personally care about.

 

[Fedos]

Another question, what is in heaven? Personal happiness or praising God 24/7 for infinity? What if ones idea of happiness isn't PC? What if I want to date Cleopatra and make love to her for 4 centuries? Why is that frowned upon?

I've heard it explained to me like this, everyone wants to go to heaven when they die, they just don't want God to be there when they get there. Heaven is the place where you as a redeemed saint can commune with God and the saints from all the ages. In the Bible the book of Revelation describes God after the thousand year reign of Christ creating new heavens (universe) and a new earth. So you'll be able to explore all that is in the universe (other planets and galaxies, whatever is out there) and whatever is in literal heaven (which is above the universe).

If a person loses 3 spouses to death and dies while married to their 4th, who is their spouse in heaven?

Jesus adderessed this exact scenario when questioned by the Sadducees. Observe what he said:

That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Matthew 22: 23-32.

No I meant if "A's" loved ones are bad people, "A" turns to Christ, and all parties die... wouldn't "A" want to communicate with those he loved? What's heaven without friends and family? If I found out my dad was a serial killer, and he got killed by police before coming to justice and went to hell, I'd still love him and would want to speak to him in the afterlife anyway, whether I'm in heaven and he's in hell.

Ultimately, everyone is responsible for his or her own self. God will not allow someone else's decision to reject him impact your enjoyment of heaven.

 

[JGS]

Another question, what is in heaven?

Heaven is a location. This location is place where ones can be happy. Praise to God is something you do, not a state you're required to be in so to be happy is to praise God rather than it being a requirement.

What if ones idea of happiness isn't PC? What if I want to date Cleopatra and make love to her for 4 centuries? Why is that frowned upon?

Then you can have the non-PC version of happiness. Most people do. There's just no reason for God to help you with it.

If a person loses 3 spouses to death and dies while married to their 4th, who is their spouse in heaven?

Jesus mentioned something the along the lines of spirit creatures don't concern themselves with marriage which may indicate that sex is not a prerequisite for heaven. This would make sense considering that angels supposedly became human so they could have sex.

I don't have all the details on heaven though. So I'm not sure that all good people go there. The Bible mentions a couple of options so I'll wait and see. the other option involves praising God too though.

No I meant if "A's" loved ones are bad people, "A" turns to Christ, and all parties die... wouldn't "A" want to communicate with those he loved? What's heaven without friends and family? If I found out my dad was a serial killer, and he got killed by police before coming to justice and went to hell, I'd still love him and would want to speak to him in the afterlife anyway, whether I'm in heaven and he's in hell.

Well, my belief is still that there is no place for the wicked person at all, so communication would cease regardless. However, hypothetically, just because we love someone doesn't mean we need to communicate with them. Everyone has lost people they loved and can't talk to them anymore. Time heals the loss and friends are replaced by new friends all the time. It sounds harsh since I'm omitting the difficulty of the grieving process but it's the truth.

 

[Chaplain]

How much of the bible do you believe is literal truth?

I believe the Bible is the very spoken word of God in written form:

"Every Scripture is God-breathed and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work."

"For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires."

It is extremely important to remember that the text, in context, determines of scriptures are literal, figurative, allegorical, or metaphorical.

Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, Earth created in 7 days only a few thousand years ago, the actual resurrection and miracles, Old Testament shenanigans, etc.

Scripture interprets scripture. This is one of the basics in understanding scripture. Knowing this, we know that Jesus and the Apostles went into great detail about the events described in Genesis.

Jesus on Noah:

“When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. In those days, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came and destroyed them all."

The Apostle Peter on Noah:

"So he went and preached to the spirits in prison those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

"And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood."

The Apostle Paul on Noah:

"It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith."

Luke mentions Noah in Jesus' genealogy:

Shelah was the son of Cainan. Cainan was the son of Arphaxad. Arphaxad was the son of Shem. Shem was the son of Noah. Noah was the son of Lamech.

Jesus on the Old Testament scriptures about his resurrection:

“When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ You are witnesses of all these things."

Paul on Adam and Eve:

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.

Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven.

For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result.

Jude on Adam:

Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones.

God talking about Adam in the book of Hosea:

I want you to show love, not offer sacrifices. I want you to know me more than I want burnt offerings. But like Adam, you broke my covenant and betrayed my trust.

Luke mentions Adam in Jesus' genealogy:

Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God.

Paul on Creation:

We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.”

Jesus on Creation:

But ‘God made them male and female’ from the beginning of creation.

“As a result, this generation will be held responsible for the murder of all God’s prophets from the creation of the world"

These are just some of the examples available.

Not trying to troll bait or cause anything, just wanted to know since I was raised Roman Catholic and my CCD teacher said the bible is the literal truth but I have another friend who was raised roman catholic and he said that they didn't say its all literal truth.

The writers of the Bible say that in the last days, mankind will fall away from knowing God's truth and follow after those who teach lies.

If a person reads the Bible, without any outside influence, they will come to believe Jesus is God of the Bible, the Bible is God's spoken Word just written on paper, God created the world in 6 days, God flooded the world with water, Jesus is the only way a person can enter heaven, all mankind is infected with the virus of sin, the only cure for this disease of the blood of Jesus, Jesus came to save mankind from going to Hell and the Lake of Fire, etc.

I hope all of this helped you understand what is written in God's Word.

 

[The Lamonster]

Dear Christian-GAF: I have been recently wondering if I may in fact be a Christian simply because I believe in and practice the morals of the religion. I don't believe in Jesus or worry about what the Bible says, but I think Christianity has a good moral message.

What say you? I also celebrate Christmas!!

Oh also I am pro-gay marriage...and pro-pre-marriage sex and not sure if there is a God. How would I know anyway?

Dammit, I'm starting to think I am not in fact a Christian.

 

[Chaplain]

Dear Christian-GAF: I have been recently wondering if I may in fact be a Christian simply because I believe in and practice the morals of the religion. I don't believe in Jesus or worry about what the Bible says, but I think Christianity has a good moral message.

What say you?

If you really want to know God, to have a relationship with Him, this video will tell you how.

 

[Mario]

If a person reads the Bible, without any outside influence, they will come to believe Jesus is God of the Bible, the Bible is God's spoken Word just written on paper, God created the world in 6 days, God flooded the world with water, Jesus is the only way a person can enter heaven, all mankind is infected with the virus of sin, the only cure for this disease of the blood of Jesus, Jesus came to save mankind from going to Hell and the Lake of Fire, etc.

I have read the Bible in such a manner, multiple times, and I don't believe any of these things.

 

[Wrestlemania]

If a person reads the Bible, without any outside influence, they will come to believe Jesus is God of the Bible, the Bible is God's spoken Word just written on paper, God created the world in 6 days, God flooded the world with water, Jesus is the only way a person can enter heaven, all mankind is infected with the virus of sin, the only cure for this disease of the blood of Jesus, Jesus came to save mankind from going to Hell and the Lake of Fire, etc.

If a person were to read the bible without any outside influence or preconceptions, they would believe it's a weird old story book.

 

[Chaplain]

Subjects discussed in this study:

What is the purpose of crowns?
How to discipline our bodies so that our human nature doesn't dominate our day-to-day lives.
Demons can be behind idols.
God's definition of jealousy.

1 Corinthians 10

 

[GrizzNKev]

I don't intend to interrupt any discussion, but I had a question in mind.

My brother and I, both atheists, were arguing whether Jesus being an actual person or not had any historical significance, outside of his supposed place in the religion.

What I'd like is for you to momentarily consider, is if Jesus had only been written into the bible as a means of providing an example of perfection to the rest of humanity, would it have made a difference whether or not the events of his life actually occurred if the message of his actions and morality were still preserved?

There were many men at the time whose claim to fame was being a prophet of sorts, and are said to have similar abilities and influence. Does it matter in modern Christianity that the one, specific man named Jesus who actually did those exact things in the bible, may not have ever existed? I feel as if, at this point in time, it makes no difference. If merely the concept of absolute perfection is being worshiped, and that perfect person can be called Jesus, then it doesn't matter so much if he really existed or is just a retelling of older, similar tales.

 

[Chaplain]

I don't intend to interrupt any discussion, but I had a question in mind.

My brother and I, both atheists, were arguing whether Jesus being an actual person or not had any historical significance, outside of his supposed place in the religion.

What I'd like is for you to momentarily consider, is if Jesus had only been written into the bible as a means of providing an example of perfection to the rest of humanity, would it have made a difference whether or not the events of his life actually occurred if the message of his actions and morality were still preserved?

There were many men at the time whose claim to fame was being a prophet of sorts, and are said to have similar abilities and influence. Does it matter in modern Christianity that the one, specific man named Jesus who actually did those exact things in the bible, may not have ever existed? I feel as if, at this point in time, it makes no difference. If merely the concept of absolute perfection is being worshiped, and that perfect person can be called Jesus, then it doesn't matter so much if he really existed or is just a retelling of older, similar tales.

The Apostle Paul wrote:

I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. He was seen by Peter and then by the Twelve. After that, he was seen by more than 500 of his followers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he was seen by James and later by all the apostles. Last of all, as though I had been born at the wrong time, I also saw him. For I am the least of all the apostles. In fact, I’m not even worthy to be called an apostle after the way I persecuted God’s church.

The Apostle John wrote:

We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life. This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us. We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

"If" Jesus was written into the Bible and he didn't die for our sins, then the writers of the Bible are liars of the biggest false story of all time.

 

[Mario]

"If" Jesus was written into the Bible and he didn't die for our sins, then the writers of the Bible are liars of the biggest false story of all time.

Given the authors of the Bible were not first hand witnesses to the events and the passages were for the most part written at least decades after the supposed events in question, it may not have been the authors themselves who would be lying but those that related the events to those authors in the first place. The authors could very well have written their passages in good faith, even if the underlying events did not actually happen.

 

[JGS]

I don't intend to interrupt any discussion, but I had a question in mind.

My brother and I, both atheists, were arguing whether Jesus being an actual person or not had any historical significance, outside of his supposed place in the religion.

What I'd like is for you to momentarily consider, is if Jesus had only been written into the bible as a means of providing an example of perfection to the rest of humanity, would it have made a difference whether or not the events of his life actually occurred if the message of his actions and morality were still preserved?

This would have been an impossible conspiracy to plan out, but hypothetically, it would matter because that would mean that it was indeed impossible for a man to achieve and maintain perfection.

There were many men at the time whose claim to fame was being a prophet of sorts, and are said to have similar abilities and influence. Does it matter in modern Christianity that the one, specific man named Jesus who actually did those exact things in the bible, may not have ever existed? I feel as if, at this point in time, it makes no difference. If merely the concept of absolute perfection is being worshiped, and that perfect person can be called Jesus, then it doesn't matter so much if he really existed or is just a retelling of older, similar tales.

This is why evidence and a paper trail matter. I realize that a skeptic will often question the papertrail since it still describes miraculous things. However, the differences between Jesus and anyone else claiming to be the Messiah are huge and history wisely deduced that they were phonies in comparison. This is because jesus' existence is more than just his actions, it's his purpose.

Jesus being real is a requirement for Christianity because without him we are doomed to being imperfect. Otherwise, we're just a follower of a flawed philosophy (Because the basis of perfection is tied to God's view, not to mankind's view of it).

The fact that there is more than sufficient evidence that he existed, coupled with the idea that, despite some disagreement naturally, he did live a admirable life that was in harmony with Godly standards (Something that even worshippers of God couldn't be unified with at the time) makes it easier to believe he did exist than try to say he didn't though.

 

[Necromanti]

This would have been an impossible conspiracy to plan out, but hypothetically, it would matter because that would mean that it was indeed impossible for a man to achieve and maintain perfection.

This is why evidence and a paper trail matter.

The fact that there is more than sufficient evidence that he existed, coupled with the idea that, despite some disagreement naturally, he did live a admirable life that was in harmony with Godly standards (Something that even worshippers of God couldn't be unified with at the time) makes it easier to believe he did exist than try to say he didn't though.

Do you know any good, impartial sources that I can use that have documents discussing (the existence of) Jesus? I could only find an account by Tacitus and one by Josephus, but since they were all found to have been forged years after when they were supposedly written, they wouldn't seem to be the most credible of sources. All the other documents I can find only talk about the Christians themselves.

 

[JGS]

Do you know any good sources that I can use that have documents discussing Jesus? I only found an account by Tacitus and one by Josephus, but since they were all found to have been forged years after the fact they were supposedly written. All the other documents I can find only talk about the Christians themselves.

Who forged the Josephus & Tacitus documents? I would like sources to those. I'm not saying this because I rely on them, just that statements like that are easy to type. It's a very common fallacy to think that just because there is little information on the matter, that means the matter didn't exist.

That's not really the case with Jesus though. It's really much more of a case of willfully ignoring what's out there on the notion that it is tainted as if what we know about Caesar should be tainted since they are largely Roman sources.

So whether they were forged or not, the documents talking about the Christians themselves should lead you both to the NT writing and some of the more accurate Apocraphyls which leads to Jesus. That is more information on one group from that time than most people would ever need to have to attest to a historic moment in time.

That Christians come from Christ's is never in dispute regarding their history. It's just that they somehow just popped out of the ground like daisies and grew substantially within decades of a mythical figure being created for them to follow with the corruption of the Church sealing the deal.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

the writers of the Bible are liars of the biggest false story of all time.

you may be onto something.

It's rude to call them liars though, as they, like you, believed. These are 4rd, 5th hand sources from guys who may or may not have heard from a guy who lived in Galilee who knew someone related to Zebedee, who chased Jesus and his friends out of town.

But to say Jesus didn't exist is silly, of course he did. He was the best human being

 

[Gileadxv]

I don't intend to interrupt any discussion, but I had a question in mind.

My brother and I, both atheists, were arguing whether Jesus being an actual person or not had any historical significance, outside of his supposed place in the religion.

What I'd like is for you to momentarily consider, is if Jesus had only been written into the bible as a means of providing an example of perfection to the rest of humanity, would it have made a difference whether or not the events of his life actually occurred if the message of his actions and morality were still preserved?

There were many men at the time whose claim to fame was being a prophet of sorts, and are said to have similar abilities and influence. Does it matter in modern Christianity that the one, specific man named Jesus who actually did those exact things in the bible, may not have ever existed? I feel as if, at this point in time, it makes no difference. If merely the concept of absolute perfection is being worshiped, and that perfect person can be called Jesus, then it doesn't matter so much if he really existed or is just a retelling of older, similar tales.

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
-- 1 Corinthians 15:12-19

Here, Paul is making the argument that if Jesus was not resurrected, than the Christian faith is completely in vain. In fact, if the claims about Jesus are false, than above all else, those who profess faith in him should be pitied for being deceived. So, in regards to your question, it's not the "concept of absolute perfection" being worshiped, but the physical reality of Jesus. If Jesus is reduced to a concept, then being a follower of Christ becomes meaningless.

 

[Gileadxv]

you may be onto something.

It's rude to call them liars though, as they, like you, believed. These are 4rd, 5th hand sources from guys who may or may not have heard from a guy who lived in Galilee who knew someone related to Zebedee, who chased Jesus and his friends out of town.

But to say Jesus didn't exist is silly, of course he did. He was the best human being

Matthew, John, Paul, James, and Jude are all first hand sources. Mark and Luke are second hand sources (although Luke was a first hand source for many of the events in Acts).

 

[Fedos]

Do you know any good, impartial sources that I can use that have documents discussing (the existence of) Jesus? I could only find an account by Tacitus and one by Josephus, but since they were all found to have been forged years after when they were supposedly written, they wouldn't seem to be the most credible of sources. All the other documents I can find only talk about the Christians themselves.

I just watched a preview of the next program of The King is Coming and the host Ed Hindson was discussing this. He listed these names: Thallas, Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus, Clement, Papias. He says that there are 45 ancient sources that provide 129 facts about Jesus.

 

[Chaplain]

Subjects discussed in this study:

Why does the Bible say woman must wear a head covering when praying or prophesying?
What can happen to those who miss Communion.
The Bible warns believers not to be ignorant of various teachings.
One of the ways that you can know that you are saved.
What are the differences between gifts, ministries and operations of the Spirit?
What is the purpose of the gifts, ministries and operations of the Spirit?
What is the gift of the word of wisdom?
What is the gift of the word of knowledge?

1 Corinthians 12

 

[noah111]

Why does the Bible say woman must wear a head covering when praying or prophesying?

Yeah, this gets me every time. I remember explaining to this devout a friend of mine (devout christian girl) who was asking why my gf at the time was wearing a head scarf just when she read the quran.

She didn't believe me when I said this was in the bible too... Either way the rule is a weird one, but the amount of christians that are oblivious to it is somewhat surprising.

 

[Chaplain]

Yeah, this gets me every time. I remember explaining to this devout a friend of mine (devout christian girl) who was asking why my gf at the time was wearing a head scarf just when she read the quran.

She didn't believe me when I said this was in the bible too... Either way the rule is a weird one, but the amount of christians that are oblivious to it is somewhat surprising.

While the Bible does address head covering, it is extremely important to remember this was only addressed to the Corinthian woman at the time to help the women "differentiate themselves from the prostitutes whose heads were shaved as a sign of their service to Aphrodite. Women who exercised their liberty in Christ by praying or prophesying with their heads uncovered caused confusion in the congregation and dishonor to their husbands."

 

[Mario]

She didn't believe me when I said this was in the bible too... Either way the rule is a weird one, but the amount of christians that are oblivious to it is somewhat surprising.

I don't find it surprising given many Christians don't actually read the Bible.

 

[JGS]

I don't find it surprising given many Christians don't actually read the Bible.

Well, the ones that do read it realize it's not that important and it doesn't relate entirely to the Muslim view of head coverings anyway.

It's not unusual for religions people to have particular verses they prefer and there's no an expectation of remembering everything. That's what constant instruction is for.

Given the constant regurgitation of certain verses when some complain about it, the typical atheist probably thinks the Bible is 100 chapters tops.

 

[Pollux]

I believe the Bible is the very spoken word of God in written form:
If a person reads the Bible, without any outside influence, they will come to believe Jesus is God of the Bible, the Bible is God's spoken Word just written on paper, God created the world in 6 days, God flooded the world with water, Jesus is the only way a person can enter heaven, all mankind is infected with the virus of sin, the only cure for this disease of the blood of Jesus, Jesus came to save mankind from going to Hell and the Lake of Fire, etc.

I hope all of this helped you understand what is written in God's Word.

Out of curiosity what denomination are you?

 

[Chaplain]

Out of curiosity what denomination are you?

I am nondenominational (if I would give myself a label).

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Another question, what is in heaven? Personal happiness or praising God 24/7 for infinity? What if ones idea of happiness isn't PC? What if I want to date Cleopatra and make love to her for 4 centuries? Why is that frowned upon?

If a person loses 3 spouses to death and dies while married to their 4th, who is their spouse in heaven?

That kind of reminds me of the question Bart asked his Sunday School teacher in Season 2. Like the robot with a human brain.

 

[operon]

Yeah, this gets me every time. I remember explaining to this devout a friend of mine (devout christian girl) who was asking why my gf at the time was wearing a head scarf just when she read the quran.

She didn't believe me when I said this was in the bible too... Either way the rule is a weird one, but the amount of christians that are oblivious to it is somewhat surprising.

Before the Vatican Council II women had to cover their head going to mass, but that was relaxed at that Council

 

[Chaplain]

1 Corinthians 12 - Diversity and Unity in Spiritual Gifts

 

[Splash Wave]

Are any of you familiar with Marilynne Robinson's novel, Gilead? Either way, I could use some help interpreting something:

“The article is called “God and the American People,” and it says 95 percent of us say we believe in God. But our religion doesn't meet the writer's standards ,not at all. To his mind, all those people in all those churches are the scribes and the Pharisees. He seems to me a bit of a scribe himself, scorning and rebuking the way he does. How do you tell a scribe from a prophet, which is what he clearly takes himself to be? The prophets love the people they chastise, a thing this writer does not appear to me to do.”

What's the significance of the "scribe" here? The connotation is a negative one, obviously, but I need to know why. Any clarification will be a big help for this essay I'm working on.

 

[Fedos]

Are any of you familiar with Marilynne Robinson's novel, Gilead? Either way, I could use some help interpreting something:



What's the significance of the "scribe" here? The connotation is a negative one, obviously, but I need to know why. Any clarification will be a big help for this essay I'm working on.

Well, the scribes criticized Jesus in the Gospels, along with the Pharisees. Read through the Gosples and you'll see that they wanted to kill him. Jesus called them both 'hypocrites.' I think that's what whoever wrote that quote is referring to.

 

[Splash Wave]

Well, the scribes criticized Jesus in the Gospels, along with the Pharisees. Read through the Gosples and you'll see that they wanted to kill him. Jesus called them both 'hypocrites.' I think that's what whoever wrote that quote is referring to.

That's just what I needed. Thank you.

 

[Mario]

Given the constant regurgitation of certain verses when some complain about it, the typical atheist probably thinks the Bible is 100 chapters tops.

Given certain sects of Christianity and many Christian individuals focus on a narrow range of verses while ignoring or downplaying most of the rest, it is understandable that those unfamiliar with the Bible might have the wrong idea about just how weighty a text it is.

 

[johnny_park]

What are your thoughts on dating an atheist?

 

[Fedos]

What are your thoughts on dating an atheist?

Well the Bible says this: 14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Corinthians 6: 14-16.

Most use this in relation to dating.

 

[Aristion]

Given the authors of the Bible were not first hand witnesses to the events and the passages were for the most part written at least decades after the supposed events in question, it may not have been the authors themselves who would be lying but those that related the events to those authors in the first place. The authors could very well have written their passages in good faith, even if the underlying events did not actually happen.

Paul knew the Apostles and Jesus' relatives, and we have writings from direct students of the Apostles (Papias, Polycarp and Ignatius) and they relate their teaching, moreover affirming the fact that they were martyred for their faith.

 

[Chaplain]

1 Corinthians 13 - Agape Love (the real definition of Love)

 

[crazy monkey]

So two ladies came to my house. They gave me kingdom calling watch tower magazine. They were from Jewowah witness. They were explaining everything to me but one of thing they said that they are not considered christian and they are not liked by Catholics is it true? Also She said they do not believe Jesus was a son of god.