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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
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I read that part. however, I don't agree with the analogy since there are indeed fundamental differences in his example. They are biologically equal, but that has nothing to do with their power of position. Further, men and women are indeed equal, but certainly not in a physical or power based way. Men dominate in this area.
So I understand his analogy, I just don't see how he can deduce equality by them except in one aspect. That aspect is also shared by any creature in heaven since they are all spiritual- with the exception of the holy Spirit/Ghost.
I also don't think it's fair to the Bible or God to say that God's intention is to remain a mystery to us when it involves extremely important information for our salvation. When a person questions doctrine, it's not because they are against it, they expect to have an understanding of it. They are no different than the Bereans, the Ethiopian Eunuch, or even Abraham. In each of those case, further information was met with blessing and certainly not a questioning of faith or affiliation.
This is a side note, but one of the charts you put up to explain what constitutes a cult indicated that true Christians use only the Bible while cults use other sources. Ironically, it seems that other sources are needed out the ying yang to comprehend just that the trinity is a mystery.
I was actually talking about you using an outside source. However, he didn't use the Bible to come about with his reasoning. Otherwise he would have used all of it and he wouldn't have said that the Bible can't be understood and needed his explanation of the verse. Further, he never saw in the bible where a cult is defined as someone who didn't believe in the trinity.
Don't get me wrong, I think using outside sources is a totally legit way to gather information about the Bible. Outside sources don't necessarily mean that they are replacements for the Bible. I just thought it was odd that the chart seems to think that there's something wrong with having Bible based literature.
I thought you were done and you didn't want to debate? It's funny that you keep responding to me without answering to any of my scriptures... Shows how evasive and selective you are in your arguments.
The article basically uses it's logic from a wife and a husband. It basically says that they are equal in humanity but in their position of rank they are subordinate. The problem with that logic is that's now what non-trinitarians are arguing about.
Remember, this Trinity is not explained in the Bible, this is all taught by men. No bible writer, God or even Jesus is quoted as explaining this in the scripture. Many times in the bible, you can find Jesus, God and others explaining how there is one God, and everyone else (including Jesus) is inferior to him.
He quoted that article, but he didn't pay attention to the fact that I never argued about subordination in that post. With all this said, the scriptures are clear that Jesus is subordinate in rank and in power.
Chaplain
Member
Sticking to the Bible as the source for all truth is what that chart is taking about. God has revealed everything about His Nature, His plans and His purposes for our lives in His Word.
God's Word is truth. If you do not believe what the Bible says, my answers will be pointless because all of my answers will come from God's Word.
OttomanScribe
Member
Game Analyst, are you a Christian ninja troll?
You have a habit of posting and then ignoring responses.
You have a habit of posting and then ignoring responses.
Chaplain
Member
Ty bro. I like it as well. =]
No
My time is very limited. My wife has the disease Ehlers–Danlos syndrome and her stomach is paralyzed (she can't eat food and has a feeding tube plugged in directly into her intestine). There is no cure for what she has. I also work very far from our home (3 hours drive daily back and forth). When I get home I am very tired and do not have time to respond to everyone.
There are times that I can respond but do not. Why would I do this? I do this because there are many people who just want to argue for the sake of arguing. These type of discussions just waste a persons time and end up going no where. That is why I do not always respond back.
Merry Christmas
God bless you gameanalyst. So sorry to hear what your going through. I pray God continues keeping your strength and be with you and your wife while you go through her illness. My prayers are with you.
In regards to answering questions. I'm also of the opinion that arguing that goes nowhere and is not of the purpose of edifying the heart is unnecessary and actually dangerous. As christians, we should encourage one another rather than argue with everyone even though not all of us have a spirit of truth or conviction in our words.
In regards to answering questions. I'm also of the opinion that arguing that goes nowhere and is not of the purpose of edifying the heart is unnecessary and actually dangerous. As christians, we should encourage one another rather than argue with everyone even though not all of us have a spirit of truth or conviction in our words.
Chaplain
Member
For those who are going to be home tonight, here are some links to live webcasts of Christmas Eve services from various churches.
December 24, 2011
Webcast starts at 3:00, 5:00 & 7:00pm PST
Message from Pastor Greg Laurie
Music from Marty Goetz
Webcast link
Webcast starts at 5:00 & 7:00pm PST
Message from Pastor Mike MacIntosh
Webcast link
Webcast starts at 2:30, 4:30, 6:30 & 8:30pm EST
Message from Pastor Bob Coy
Webcast link
Webcast starts at 6:00pm PST
Message from Pastor David Rosales
Webcast link
I believe what the bible says. You're just not responding to the scriptures I'm quoting. Since they disprove your doctrine, you rather not comment on the scriptures I quoted.
This is the type of evasive tactic Trinitarians use when they cannot answer directly to scripture. Don't play games and tell me that you're giving me answers because you're not. You and everyone who reads your responses knows exactly what you're doing.
Meus Renaissance
Member
I'm very sorry to hear about this - I remember you being very devoted to your wife. Tell me, will she ever be able to eat normally?
OttomanScribe
Member
May God grant your wife ease, if that is His will.
Maybe I can extend you a friendly word? What you do, where you enter into a thread, make a bunch of what can be simultaneously offensive and erroneous assertions, is counterproductive. If you believe that engagement with individuals is pointless, might I suggest that you not engage at all?
As it is, what you do merely hardens people's hearts to what you say, as you appear entirely unconcerned with anything save your own desire to have others hear what you have to say. This may of course be an entirely untrue assessment, and indeed likely so, considering your time constraints, it will however, end up being what people will be led to assume given your path of action.
If you do not feel able or inclined towards continuing the aforementioned discussions, might I suggest you confine your posts to discussions you actually have the intent of continuing? This seems a basic point of manners, something that would be a default for any individual but especially important for one such as yourself who puts themselves forth as a representative of their religion.
I say this only because it has occurred in relation to conversations between us a few times now, and I feel like you come into a thread, yell at everyone present, and then run away.
I pray your wife is given ease, and your holidays are filled with the divine mercy. Keep well, and I hope I do not cause you offence with this post.
His daughter Sara has been leading worship for all of the Christmas services at my church this year. I ran into her and her band a few times backstage tonight, they sounded awesome! She will be playing at the final Christmas service tomorrow at 12pm at The Rock. You can stream the service live as well.
http://www.sdrock.com/live/
Now this is been utterly rude.no one holds all the answers.And its really unfair in my opinion, that you pick on game analyst for already attempting to answer or get into a discussion about his faith with any one on the board.He tried his best to give a justification for what he believes in, and may I add, what alot of other many christians believe in regards to the topic at hand.Again, no one holds the answers, arguments, especially when they relate to religion, are always circular and never end. He made a decision to leave that topic alone and he had every right to because of the way the thread was going.No need too pick on him because of that.
OttomanScribe
Member
I do not believe I was picking on him, nor attacking him for not knowing the answers. I was merely posting an objection to him running into a discussion, saying a bunch of stuff, and then ignoring the responses.
Maybe I am old fashioned, but I try to imagine my interactions on the Internet as being like those with actual people. Were you and your Christian friends to be having a discussion about your faith, and I walked into your conversation, yelled 'actually you're all wrong cos Jesus didn't exist and was actually Dionysus' (I don't believe this at all, it's an example) and then ran away from you all, would you take my actions as normal or polite?
From my flawed memory, we previously had a discussion, I believe even in this thread, where he posted a graph comparing the Qur'an and the Bible, meant to imply that Islam was works based. It was shown that this was not the case. Then in another thread, he recently came into another thread, where I was defending Jesus (alayhis salaam) and posted the same graph, making the same claims, then left.
Can you see how that would be viewed as impolite? I can understand how my Christian troll ninja comment was a bit harsh, but that is how the majority of my interactions with him have happened, where he comes in like a Christian troll, makes a bunch of claims and then, like a ninja, chucks a smoke bomb and ejects himself from the thread.
Maybe it is a coping mechanism on the forums, but it is counter productive, if he wants people to take him seriously then he needs to stand behind the assertions that he makes. As it is, it comes of as disrespectful and insincere. I know what it is to have restricted time, if I feel that I'm not going to be able to reply to a discussion I will either not engage at all, or give my apologies for the fact that I will not.
If his intent is to proslytise, I cannot imagine a better way to convince people against his beliefs than him not being convinced of them enough to treat them as more than merely copy and paste troll fodder.
Crazyorloco
Member
thanks game analyst for all that info. I've been reading the bible a lot lately, I want to be closer to God. A lot of my questions were answered with your posts.
do you have a Google plus page?
do you have a Google plus page?
@Ottoman
I see your point. I haven't been on gaf a long time. And, my response, was based on gameanalysts reply to other gaf member on his not answering questions based on the trinity. My apologies then.
BUT, i should add, the bible instructs us specifically not to engage one another in argument, especially one that is not edifying to our walk with God. I should add, discussion is can be healthy if its based on mutual good will towards the other person and not with intent of feeling that I or the other party have "WON" an argument. When we as christians discuss the bible, our purpose should be to strengthen one another but this rarely happens.
Anyway, I dont want to write too much. Again, im sorry if i came of rude too, no hard feelings.
I see your point. I haven't been on gaf a long time. And, my response, was based on gameanalysts reply to other gaf member on his not answering questions based on the trinity. My apologies then.
BUT, i should add, the bible instructs us specifically not to engage one another in argument, especially one that is not edifying to our walk with God. I should add, discussion is can be healthy if its based on mutual good will towards the other person and not with intent of feeling that I or the other party have "WON" an argument. When we as christians discuss the bible, our purpose should be to strengthen one another but this rarely happens.
Anyway, I dont want to write too much. Again, im sorry if i came of rude too, no hard feelings.
OttomanScribe
Member
I think that is a healthy attitude towards debate. My objection came because I feel that GA's approach to debate did not come off as either effective at proslytising, or well mannered in terms of debate. I have on a few occasions wasted a fair amount of time replying to his posts, only to be (what I took as rudely) ignored.
If I'm an infidel and not worth debating with, tell me, I won't take offence. But I wish he wouldn't act like he was interested in discussion.
I do not believe I am generally ill-mannered or rude in debate, I don't feel that it is to much to ask to expect some measure of respect from a man who has taken it upon himself to be one of the public faces of Christianity on this forum.
Chaplain
Member
Ty bro. Do not be sorry though. God has allowed this for his glory. Some scriptures that continue to keep us focused on the Lord are:
God comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others. When others are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us."
"Dear brothers and sisters, when troubles come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing."
I do my best to see where the conversation is going and to see if I need to respond. The Apostles were extremely clear to stay away from those who deny the truth. The Apostle John wrote:
I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist. Anyone who wanders away from this teaching has no relationship with God. If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, dont invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. Anyone who encourages such people becomes a partner in their evil work.
So, that is why I am so strict when it comes to the doctrine of Christ. This is a matter of life and death.
Jesus is God. There is nothing else to discuss.
Not according to the doctors. She will continue to get worse. That is the nature of all the illnesses she has. But God is good and we pray that God uses this to help others in their marriages and in their lives.
Life is short and before we know it we will be back home. So, that encourages us when things get dark (and this happens a lot).
This is a fine balance that I am learning as I continue to live.
I notice that it doesn't harden the hearts for those who are open to discussing and sharing views. Those with set beliefs are the ones that become hostile (telling me that they want me dead) and I can usually tell where the conversation will go (just by their responses).
I always have the intention to continue. At the same time, I do not have time to respond to multiple people in threads that I never talked to in the first place. Luckily, like today, I have plenty of time because I have a week of vacation. In many threads, dozens of people will respond, most of which are their to vent their anger at someone they disagree with. This happens on the gaming side of this forum as well. To many people are her just to yell and debate. These things lead to wasted time and do not benefit others reading the thread.
I apologize to you for not continuing the conversation. I will do my best to not have this happen between us in the future.
May the Lord bless you as well.
You are more than welcome. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you grow and have a deeper relationship with the Lord. =]
I have a Google+ page but do not use it any more.
Ty for what you said. I will do my best to not do these type of things in the future. =]
Meus Renaissance
Member
The other thread made me wonder:
Why was stoning an appropriate sentence at the time of The Old Testament and then abandoned. In other words, why was it only for that particular society and not a law for the future?
Why was stoning an appropriate sentence at the time of The Old Testament and then abandoned. In other words, why was it only for that particular society and not a law for the future?
Well, primarily because we as human beings are in a period of grace. God for instance is not raining fire down from heaven like he did in the Old Testament, as an example. And also, Israel and the Jews as a people were chosen by God so that he could birth the Messiah, Jesus Christ, into the world. God was also trying to keep his people from being spirtually tainted. The surrounding nations were to recognize that they were a special people sanctified (or set apart) by the God of heaven. As another illustration, the Israelites believed in one Creator God, whereas the surrounding nations all believed in polytheism. They were to recognize the differences.
Not sure about the law for the future part. Stoning wasn't abandoned until Jerusalem was destroyed.
Stoning was not a punishment in the christian congregation because they 1.) were not in a position to implement a capital punishment at all & 2.) would not be interested in killing someone anyway since that is not a part of their commision.
Pollux
Member
Good post. I think me and OS have had some good interfaith discussions. He is VERY knowledgable about Islam and talking with him Riz or Jason raize is very fun.
Mystic Theurge
Member
As a nonbeliever, I don't understand why God and Jesus need to be the same. I can understand how they can be the same--in many fantasy setting Gods have multiple aspects, the Jesus/God thing could be similar--but why do they need to be? Why does it matter?
Isn't it enough that he's the son of God? I mean the son of a God is still a God.
Is because Christians don't want to be polytheistic?
Isn't it enough that he's the son of God? I mean the son of a God is still a God.
Is because Christians don't want to be polytheistic?
The Bible teaches that God exists as a triune or three fold being. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, three eternally existing persons all of which are God. There was nothing that was created without the Son, similarly there was nothing that was created without the Holy Spirit. This is the orthodox Christian belief on who God is.
There is no purpose for them being the same.
It's not a concern for polytheism because whether there is a trinity or not (There isn't imo), Jesus is followed while God is worshiped. Jesus points all glory back to his father.
Chaplain
Member
This is not true. The Apostles worshiped Jesus.
"Then Jesus led them to Bethany, and lifting his hands to heaven, he blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up to heaven. So they worshiped him and then returned to Jerusalem filled with great joy. And they spent all of their time in the Temple, praising God." Luke 24:50-52
"Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." - Matthew 14:33
And so did others in the Gospels.
Admittedly poor word choice since worship convey prostrating/bowing down and/or obeisance. However, it still does not discount Jesus repeatedly viewing himself inferior &/or separate from his father.
The problem is that the Bible doesn't teach any of this. There is not one bible passage that explains this doctrine.
There are many passsages in the Bible where God, Jesus and his followers explain that there is only one God, which is the Father only.
Mystic Theurge
Member
Well, there seems to be some debate about what the Bible teaches. But ignoring that for a second, where did the Trinity concept come from? Christianity evolved from Judaism, so I'm assuming it wasn't there originally.
Well, God left scriptures even in the Old Testament that pointed to the Trinity. They are:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1: 1-2. Here we have during the creation of the world the Holy Spirit being present, and active.
We also have this passage in Genesis explaining the convicting power of the Holy Spirit:
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." Genesis 6: 3
Jesus spoke on the Holy Spirit's role in salvation in the book of St. John: 'But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.' St. John 16: 7-11.
Also in Psalms we have this passage:
'The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Psalms 110; 1. This is a clear reference to Christ, who indeed sits at the right hand of God the Father. Jesus even referenced this passage to the Pharisees.
"What do you think about the Christ ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 44 " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ' 45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions. Matthew 22: 42-46.
Then we have this passage in Isaiah:
'For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.' Isaiah 9: 6.
It says that a son will be born to humankind who will be called Mighty God and the Prince of Peace. But these are just a few scriptures that point to the divinity of Jesus and that there being a Trinity. Also, Paul explains in Romans that God has placed a veil over the eyes of most Jews (which is the main reason they haven't accepted Jesus as their Messiah). Though there is still a remnant who do believe in Jesus, i.e. Messianic Torah Judaism.
You never offered any scriptures that explains the Trinity doctrine. You offered scriptures that you believe teach the Holy spirit is God and Jesus is God. None of the scriptures in the old Testament and in the New Testament explain this doctrine.
Throughout the scriptures, the Holy spirit is said to be God's spirit, the spirit of God and never God the spirit, which Trinitarians teach. Also, throughout the scriptures, Jesus is said to be God's son, the son of God and never God the Son.
However, you find many times where the Father is definitely called God the Father.
Now is it true that Jesus was called God? Of course. But does that mean God he's God almighty. The title God is not an exclusive title. Men and angels were also called God (Exodus 7:1, Psalm 82:6, John 10:35). Jesus stated in John 17:3 that his Father was the only true God (same 1 John 5:20). This means that he is the only one that can rightfully be called God because he is almighty in authority. Jesus was called Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6 because of his kingship. That's why it states the government (kingdom) will be on his shoulder and he will be called Prince of peace, Mighty God ect.
The scriptures are clear that God the Father expresses fully authority over everyone, and that everyone is ultimately subjected to him. If Jesus was coequal, with his Father, he wouldn't haven't been exalted to a higher position, nor would he be in subjection to anyone. that's one of the main reasons why he cannot be God Almighty.
1 Corinthians 15:28
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
John 14:1
Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me.
Maybe this will help, the Nicene Creed according to the sciptures. Just move your cursor over each scripture and it explains why the Trinitarian doctrine is biblical: http://www.extremetheology.com/2009/11/the-nicene-creed-according-to-the-scriptures.html
The Bible portrays the Holy Spirit as a distinct person in the Godhead. Jesus referred to him here: 'But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.' St. John 16: 7.
I looked in the back of my Bible for Hebrew words and it said that when the word 'god' was used in relation to men (Moses) it was talking about his position in relation to Pharoh. When the Bilbe refers to angels being called 'gods' it is probably referring to principalities in the heavenlies. But Jesus as the Son of God sits at the right hand of God the Father. Jesus also in his high priestly prayer prayed this: 'And now, O Father, glorify me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.' St. John 17: 5. The Bible says that God will not give his glory to another, meaning that Jesus is God the Son.
All that can be explained by saying that God is a God of order.
I'm well aware of the scriptures that Trinitarians use to support their doctrine but it's in no way biblical. Like I stated before. No passage in the bible explains this doctrine.
Jesus referred to as him because the helper (counselor) is used in the masculine gender form. It has everything to do with Grammar and nothing to do with an actual person.
This would make wisdom a person since it cries and speaks (Proverbs 1:20). There are many scriptures where things are personified and it doesn't mean they're an actual person.
John 17:5 has nothing to do with what Jesus said in John 17:3. This is a evasive tactic trinitarians used when Jesus clearly calls his father the only true God. There is no excusing that no matter how you put it.
John 17:5 simply says glorify me alongside yourself before the world was. It doesnt say they share the same glory.
Another evasive answer. Clearly the scriptures prove that Jesus is not Almighty. The Trinity teaches that the Father, son and holy spirit are coequal, almighty in nature. Jesus is said to be separate from God and not Almighty.
This is becoming a tried and circular argument. Both sides have presented what they feel is conclusive evidence to support their position, and neither side is willing to capitulate to the other. It's time to agree to disagree and move on. The reality is that all major Christian denominations acknowledge God and the Trinity, so for the sake of this thread, it seems reasonable to operate under this general assumption, while acknowledging that there are some people who disagree. This may seem unfair to those who deny the Trinity, but Christian doctrine clearly teaches the trinity of the Godhead, and to stray from this theological principle is to be no longer be operating within the confines of Christianity (which is what this thread is for). To continue to argue the point (particularly when no new ground is being made) is akin to debating the merits of Islam or Mormonism versus Christianity. Those are certainly valid discussions to be had, but not the purpose of this thread. I invite those who wish to continue to the debate to open a new thread in which the merits of the Christian faith can be argued.
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