Airola
Member
He will reply to you with "they are in AGREEMENT" nonsense just like he has done several times before.
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Christianity [OT] The Word became flesh and dwelt among us
He will reply to you with "they are in AGREEMENT" nonsense just like he has done several times before.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
I’ve already stated how I feel about that in this thread. One stated there means in agreement. Not one being. If it says there are three that bear record how do you get 3 to be one? And you can’t say they are all in God if Christ sits at the right hand of God, nor can God be greater than Christ or know things Christ doesn’t if they’re the same person. If that were the case Christ would know when he’s returning. He doesn’t. Only God knows and he’ll only come when God tells him to.
I mean who do you think Christ himself is referring to here? He’s obviously not referring to himself.
““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21 NKJV
Can any one of us here call ourselves our father? No. It doesn’t make sense.
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Bolivar687
Banned
You're arguing that he's not the Father, and all of us would agree with you. Each of the Trinity is of the same divine substance - the Lord.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
So who’s was the “head”, or God before Christ was made heir? The Father as well, correct?
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Barsinister
Banned
You need to get rid of the word "before" when speaking of God in his realm. The Father has always been the father, the Son has always been the Son, and the Holy Spirit has always been the Holy Spirit. God has always been and always will be in His own state.
To be honest if you are not a JW, you have much of the same doctrine as them. I would suggest looking into it.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
My cousin is a JW. She disowned me for trying to get her out of their cult. 
Christ came after the Father. How can a son exist without being born or begotten? I think I’ve said this at least 3 times in this thread but revelation 12. That’s the birth of the spirit of Christ. People try to say that it represents his earthly birth or the birth of Israel but it mentions a third of the stars being swept out of the sky by the devil. That surely represents the ones that were cast out in the beginning and if that’s true, then the birth of Christ would have also taken place around that same time as its stated. The “woman” if I’m correct is the Shekinah, God’s feminine counterpart in Judaism also called his Glory. This is also why Mary can’t be the “mother of God” wether that be God himself or Christ, His son.
Christ came after the Father. How can a son exist without being born or begotten? I think I’ve said this at least 3 times in this thread but revelation 12. That’s the birth of the spirit of Christ. People try to say that it represents his earthly birth or the birth of Israel but it mentions a third of the stars being swept out of the sky by the devil. That surely represents the ones that were cast out in the beginning and if that’s true, then the birth of Christ would have also taken place around that same time as its stated. The “woman” if I’m correct is the Shekinah, God’s feminine counterpart in Judaism also called his Glory. This is also why Mary can’t be the “mother of God” wether that be God himself or Christ, His son.
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Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
1 Corinthians 1:2
to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say?
“The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”
(that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
The reference at the end is from Joel. The verse in Joel says "LORD" as in YHWH, as in, God, as in, the I AM, which Jesus said he is.
Exodus 3:14
God replied to Moses: I am who I am. Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the LORD; there is no savior but me.
Same here. YHWH. The only God of Israel. He says there is no savior but him. All over chapter 45 he says it in various ways, in verses 15, 21 and 22 using the word yasha, meaning deliverer. Jesus' name is a mix of this word and YHWH. Is Jesus a savior besides God working for God? The statements in Isaiah make that impossible.
Revelation 1:7-8
Behold, he is coming amid the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him.
All the peoples of the earth will lament him.
Yes. Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”
Revelation 21:2-7
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them [as their God]. He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, [for] the old order has passed away.”
The one who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” He said to me, “They are accomplished. I [am] the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.
Matthew 1:21-23
She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,”
which means “God with us.”
Revelation 22:6-7
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, and the Lord, the God of prophetic spirits, sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon.” “Behold, I am coming soon.” Blessed is the one who keeps the prophetic message of this book.
v8-9 It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”
v12 “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
v16-17 “I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star.” The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let the hearer say, “Come.” Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.
v20 The one who gives this testimony says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
John 4:13-14
Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again; but whoever drinks the water I shall give will never thirst; the water I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, Israel’s king,
its redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
I am the first, I am the last;
there is no God but me.
Revelations 17:14
They will fight with the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and king of kings, and those with him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
Isaiah 54:4-8
Do not fear, you shall not be put to shame;
do not be discouraged, you shall not be disgraced.
For the shame of your youth you shall forget,
the reproach of your widowhood no longer remember.
For your husband is your Maker;
the Lord of hosts is his name,
Your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel,
called God of all the earth.
The Lord calls you back,
like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit,
A wife married in youth and then cast off,
says your God.
For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with great tenderness I will take you back.
In an outburst of wrath, for a moment
I hid my face from you;
But with enduring love I take pity on you,
says the Lord, your redeemer.
Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Isaiah 62:1-5
For Zion’s sake I will not be silent,
for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep still,
Until her vindication shines forth like the dawn
and her salvation like a burning torch.
Nations shall behold your vindication,
and all kings your glory;
You shall be called by a new name
bestowed by the mouth of the Lord.
You shall be a glorious crown in the hand of the Lord,
a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
No more shall you be called “Forsaken,”
nor your land called “Desolate,”
But you shall be called “My Delight is in her,”
and your land “Espoused.”
For the Lord delights in you,
and your land shall be espoused.
For as a young man marries a virgin,
your Builder shall marry you;
And as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride
so shall your God rejoice in you.
Isaiah 25:8-9
He will destroy death forever.
The Lord God will wipe away
the tears from all faces;
The reproach of his people he will remove
from the whole earth; for the Lord has spoken.
On that day it will be said:
“Indeed, this is our God; we looked to him, and he saved us!
This is the Lord to whom we looked;
let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!”
1 Timothy 1:10
but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Titus 2:13-14
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
I could keep going for quite a long time, getting into stuff like Matthew 23:34,37 and the relevant OT passages, or more into the OT of the spiritual drink/food, "looking to" him related to John 3 and the bronze serpent of Numbers 21 and Psalms, his appearing and when he comes in glory, etc. However I think this should be sufficient, if you can manage to keep track of all the overlap, as there is too much to keep entirely linear. Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH, the I AM. So is the Father. So is the Holy Spirit (establishing that is another set of illustrations). Three persons, one being. If you can't reconcile to this, you either have a reading problem, a logic problem, a demon problem, a denial problem, or a rebellion problem.
Luke 9:26
Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 18:8
"I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”
1 John 2:28
And now, children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not be put to shame by him at his coming.
to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say?
“The word is near you,
in your mouth and in your heart”
(that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
The reference at the end is from Joel. The verse in Joel says "LORD" as in YHWH, as in, God, as in, the I AM, which Jesus said he is.
Exodus 3:14
God replied to Moses: I am who I am. Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the LORD; there is no savior but me.
Same here. YHWH. The only God of Israel. He says there is no savior but him. All over chapter 45 he says it in various ways, in verses 15, 21 and 22 using the word yasha, meaning deliverer. Jesus' name is a mix of this word and YHWH. Is Jesus a savior besides God working for God? The statements in Isaiah make that impossible.
Revelation 1:7-8
Behold, he is coming amid the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him.
All the peoples of the earth will lament him.
Yes. Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”
Revelation 21:2-7
I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them [as their God]. He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, [for] the old order has passed away.”
The one who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” He said to me, “They are accomplished. I [am] the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.
Matthew 1:21-23
She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,”
which means “God with us.”
Revelation 22:6-7
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, and the Lord, the God of prophetic spirits, sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon.” “Behold, I am coming soon.” Blessed is the one who keeps the prophetic message of this book.
v8-9 It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”
v12 “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
v16-17 “I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star.” The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let the hearer say, “Come.” Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.
v20 The one who gives this testimony says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
John 4:13-14
Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again; but whoever drinks the water I shall give will never thirst; the water I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, Israel’s king,
its redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
I am the first, I am the last;
there is no God but me.
Revelations 17:14
They will fight with the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and king of kings, and those with him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
Isaiah 54:4-8
Do not fear, you shall not be put to shame;
do not be discouraged, you shall not be disgraced.
For the shame of your youth you shall forget,
the reproach of your widowhood no longer remember.
For your husband is your Maker;
the Lord of hosts is his name,
Your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel,
called God of all the earth.
The Lord calls you back,
like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit,
A wife married in youth and then cast off,
says your God.
For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with great tenderness I will take you back.
In an outburst of wrath, for a moment
I hid my face from you;
But with enduring love I take pity on you,
says the Lord, your redeemer.
Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Isaiah 62:1-5
For Zion’s sake I will not be silent,
for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep still,
Until her vindication shines forth like the dawn
and her salvation like a burning torch.
Nations shall behold your vindication,
and all kings your glory;
You shall be called by a new name
bestowed by the mouth of the Lord.
You shall be a glorious crown in the hand of the Lord,
a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
No more shall you be called “Forsaken,”
nor your land called “Desolate,”
But you shall be called “My Delight is in her,”
and your land “Espoused.”
For the Lord delights in you,
and your land shall be espoused.
For as a young man marries a virgin,
your Builder shall marry you;
And as a bridegroom rejoices in his bride
so shall your God rejoice in you.
Isaiah 25:8-9
He will destroy death forever.
The Lord God will wipe away
the tears from all faces;
The reproach of his people he will remove
from the whole earth; for the Lord has spoken.
On that day it will be said:
“Indeed, this is our God; we looked to him, and he saved us!
This is the Lord to whom we looked;
let us rejoice and be glad that he has saved us!”
1 Timothy 1:10
but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Titus 2:13-14
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
I could keep going for quite a long time, getting into stuff like Matthew 23:34,37 and the relevant OT passages, or more into the OT of the spiritual drink/food, "looking to" him related to John 3 and the bronze serpent of Numbers 21 and Psalms, his appearing and when he comes in glory, etc. However I think this should be sufficient, if you can manage to keep track of all the overlap, as there is too much to keep entirely linear. Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH, the I AM. So is the Father. So is the Holy Spirit (establishing that is another set of illustrations). Three persons, one being. If you can't reconcile to this, you either have a reading problem, a logic problem, a demon problem, a denial problem, or a rebellion problem.
Luke 9:26
Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 18:8
"I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”
1 John 2:28
And now, children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not be put to shame by him at his coming.
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
Pretty sure I can wrap that all up by saying God was the beginning and the Father, through all that was done through Christ, His son, he was made “God” as he was given authority from God and heir to the throne, in Heaven and at the throne is God AND the lamb, who is Christ, alpha and omega meaning God (father, Abba, which Christ would never call himself) was in the beginning and will live forever in Christ, The son made God by the Father, the angel, HIS angel I’m gonna guess here but that must be the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit is saying don’t worship me, only worship God, that would be again proof of individuality.
There’s scripture somewhere that mentions sons being left to avenge the father. War was never meant for heaven and earth was never meant to fall as neither were in the mind of God. Christ in that case is not only our redeemer but the redeemer of heaven and earth.
There’s scripture somewhere that mentions sons being left to avenge the father. War was never meant for heaven and earth was never meant to fall as neither were in the mind of God. Christ in that case is not only our redeemer but the redeemer of heaven and earth.
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Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
As expected, a completely ludicrous abuse of both language and reason. No need to even begin touching your absurd view of Revelation 12. I figured I'd at least provide a half-decent illustration of Jesus our Lord and God for others to see and for them to see the nature of your response. Back to having nothing to do with you.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Oh stop it. 
“And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The LORD has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’ ”), by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”
Hebrews 7:20-28 NKJV
“And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The LORD has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’ ”), by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”
Hebrews 7:20-28 NKJV
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VAL0R
Banned
All, you are wasting your time with Sax. He's stunningly unreasonable and seemingly cannot even comprehend basic counterarguments. He's a walking conspiracy theory salesman and I'm starting to question if he literally lacks the baseline intelligence required to coherently participate in a discussion like this. Every point offered to him he rephrases with an unrecognizable strawman which he attacks while beating his chest proudly. His pride is obvious.
I honestly wonder if there isn't a mental condition involved, given how extremely unusual and eccentric his core belief system is and how wildly conspiratorial he is (the sun isn't very far away after all, etc.). He needs prayer, but your arguing with him is utterly fruitless.
I honestly wonder if there isn't a mental condition involved, given how extremely unusual and eccentric his core belief system is and how wildly conspiratorial he is (the sun isn't very far away after all, etc.). He needs prayer, but your arguing with him is utterly fruitless.
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
All assumptions but I understand. It’s ok. Prayer is always welcome. We should always pray for each other. If you don’t understand now, perhaps you will in a year or two as things start to become more apparent.
Shekinah is nowhere in the Bible and is part of Jewish mysticism that was made up after the time of Christ. It is new age occultism type stuff that is very wicked, imo.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Wisdom is a she, the plants and animals were male and female and were created before Adam and Eve. Femininity was around before Eve was created from Adam. The Targum uses the word Shekinah.
Bolivar687
Banned
Today's feast day:
Saint Joan of Arc, please pray for our brother Sax!!!
Saint Joan of Arc, please pray for our brother Sax!!!
AngularSaxophone
Banned
What is that? 
Is it not said that those who are in him are at rest until judgement? If someone is at rest, how can they pray? I urge you to read the passage from Hebrews that I posted again. I always see it asked why the God of the Old Testament is so different than the God of the New Testament. It’s because they are. The Father is God in the OT, Christ the Son was given full authority in the NT therefore making him God. He learned everything from The Father, Did the will of the Father, taught and lived among us in the flesh and died for our sins as a human which is what earned him authority as King and God bestowed upon him again by The Father. Figure “God” is a title, and that’s how Father and Son can both be God and that’s how Christ was God and with God in the book of John.
Is it not said that those who are in him are at rest until judgement? If someone is at rest, how can they pray? I urge you to read the passage from Hebrews that I posted again. I always see it asked why the God of the Old Testament is so different than the God of the New Testament. It’s because they are. The Father is God in the OT, Christ the Son was given full authority in the NT therefore making him God. He learned everything from The Father, Did the will of the Father, taught and lived among us in the flesh and died for our sins as a human which is what earned him authority as King and God bestowed upon him again by The Father. Figure “God” is a title, and that’s how Father and Son can both be God and that’s how Christ was God and with God in the book of John.
Barsinister
Banned
What is that?
Does this mean to you that there are two Gods? What is it you are saying here?
AngularSaxophone
Banned
God is a title with the uppercase G denoting the most high. ABBA, Father of Christ is Old Testament God, Christ his Son was heir to the throne in the Old Testament and made God by His Father in the New Testament. Here it is again
“And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The LORD has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’ ”), by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”
Hebrews 7:20-28 NKJV
“The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.” Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.”
Psalm 2:4-10 NIV
“To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father.”
Revelation 2:26-27 NIV
“And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The LORD has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’ ”), by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”
Hebrews 7:20-28 NKJV
“The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.” Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.”
Psalm 2:4-10 NIV
“To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father.”
Revelation 2:26-27 NIV
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
Barsinister
Banned
Did the Father retire from his godly duties and now the son has taken up the family business? Does the son have authority over the father now that he has been installed into the God position?
Please try to explain what you mean without using references or quotes. Keep your language simple for us who are trying to understand.
Please try to explain what you mean without using references or quotes. Keep your language simple for us who are trying to understand.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Good question. One I think of often. I wouldn’t call it retirement as there are still 3 that bear record in heaven and on earth, and if my dad handed me down a business, If there was an issue I couldn’t resolve I’d call on my dad and I’m sure he’d help. Christ still says no one gets to the Father but through him so the dynamic of Father and Son is still there. The Father still has the call on sending Christ back. Probably falls under honor Thy mother and thy father. If I were a king, I wouldn’t expect my mom or dad to not advise me as needed.
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Airola
Member
So...
Others: "Jesus is God."
Sax: "Jesus is not God! Jesus is the Son of God!"
Others: "Yeah, he is both God and the Son of God, just like we can understand from the Bible."
Sax: "You are a blasphemer if you say Jesus is God!"
Others: "Here's scripture to back it up that Jesus is God and the Son of God."
Sax: "Well... God is a title so yeah Jesus is God, but he is not God."
Others: "Jesus is God."
Sax: "Jesus is not God! Jesus is the Son of God!"
Others: "Yeah, he is both God and the Son of God, just like we can understand from the Bible."
Sax: "You are a blasphemer if you say Jesus is God!"
Others: "Here's scripture to back it up that Jesus is God and the Son of God."
Sax: "Well... God is a title so yeah Jesus is God, but he is not God."
appaws
Banned
So, who is everybody's favorite saint...?
I have always been partial to St. Frances of Rome. It started just because that was the name of my parish and school on the west side of Chicago when I was a kid. But as I have learned more about her throughout my life, I admire her story very much.
A quick summary. She was a Roman woman in the 1300s-1400s who was very pious and dreamed of a religious life, but was forced to marry by her father. This was expected of girls from "good" families at the time. She resisted at first, but after being visited by St. Alexis in a dream, she decided that part of serving the Lord was to be obedient and serve her father. She made her new husband crazy by giving away his wealth and even inviting the homeless into their house. But he was deterred from punishing her by miracles, like when she gave away all the grain in their silo to the hungry, down to the last kernel. But when he went to the silo, intending to punish her, it had refilled! Similarly when she drained his casks of wine to distribute to the poor.
Source: https://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=49
Her remains on display in Rome.
St. Frances of Rome, Pray for us!
I have always been partial to St. Frances of Rome. It started just because that was the name of my parish and school on the west side of Chicago when I was a kid. But as I have learned more about her throughout my life, I admire her story very much.
A quick summary. She was a Roman woman in the 1300s-1400s who was very pious and dreamed of a religious life, but was forced to marry by her father. This was expected of girls from "good" families at the time. She resisted at first, but after being visited by St. Alexis in a dream, she decided that part of serving the Lord was to be obedient and serve her father. She made her new husband crazy by giving away his wealth and even inviting the homeless into their house. But he was deterred from punishing her by miracles, like when she gave away all the grain in their silo to the hungry, down to the last kernel. But when he went to the silo, intending to punish her, it had refilled! Similarly when she drained his casks of wine to distribute to the poor.
Source: https://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=49
Her remains on display in Rome.
St. Frances of Rome, Pray for us!
AngularSaxophone
Banned
So...
Others: "Jesus is God."
Sax: "Jesus is not God! Jesus is the Son of God!"
Others: "Yeah, he is both God and the Son of God, just like we can understand from the Bible."
Sax: "You are a blasphemer if you say Jesus is God!"
Others: "Here's scripture to back it up that Jesus is God and the Son of God."
Sax: "Well... God is a title so yeah Jesus is God, but he is not God."
Was Christ God in the Old Testament?
And I apologize if I was wrong in some of my posts. I was only seeking answers. I still see the trinity as 3 distinct individuals not all one being.Could you agree that Christ wasn’t made God until after his resurrection?
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.”
I Peter 1:1-12 NKJV
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Barsinister
Banned
AngularSaxophone,
What to you is the nature of sin and the way to forgiveness? Your own words please, if you are able.
What to you is the nature of sin and the way to forgiveness? Your own words please, if you are able.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
The verse was altered in later copies of Greek manuscripts, and this is why it appears different in most translations.
Example:
1 John 5:7 King James Version (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 American Standard Version (ASV)
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
natejasper
Neo Member
How can I post a topic ???
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Sin to me is when we do things outside of the will of the Father. Although we have “free” will, will can either be used to satisfy the Father, ourselves or worse the evil one. The way to forgiveness is through Christ and The Father who’s ways lead to repentance as when you get to know them you no longer feel the same about worldly desire as you are given discernment through the spirit. It’s like being given a true moral compass instead of a worldly one.
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
There are many flaws with this doctrine and the verses that people use to prove it. If this was an actual doctrine taught in the scriptures, then there wouldn't be many verses that disprove it.
The logic goes that if God and Jesus have the same title, that makes them the same person. Well, there's a huge problem with that because men were given the same titles as God and Jesus, but we clearly know that they were not god themselves. For example, Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings in Daniel 2:37, but he obviously wasn't God according to those who believe in the trinity. same applies titles such as savior, god, lord in which men were given similar titles.
To debunk some of these versus, you have to look at things in detail.
Matthew 1:21-23
This doesn't prove he is God, considering it's a common name. Jehu was god because his name means "YHWH is he."
Isaiah 43:11
This verse is talking about how God was the the only savior for Israel.
Revelation 1:7-8 & Revelation 22:6-7
They are both to be said to come quickly. The speaker that says "Alpha and the Omega" is god himself, not Jesus.
I could go into detail of the scriptures that people often use to prove Jesus is God but they're often taken out of context. However, there are many scriptures that prove he is not.
John 10:34
Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?
People don't understand that men were called lord, god and savior, but they're not considered Gods by the same people who believe Jesus is God.
Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 8:5 that there are many gods and many lords.
1 Corinthians 8:5
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),
The greek word "theos" is also denotes "God' s representative or viceregent " by definition. This is why Jesus was called God several times, but he was not actually.
God is a title that signifies rank. Jesus made it clear that there is only one true God
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
How do we know this?
1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For the Scriptures say, "God has put all things under his authority." (Of course, when it says "all things are under his authority," that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
The scriptures state that Jesus was made lord, King and things were made in subjection to him. If Jesus was co-equal and God then he would be in subjection to no one. This is often excused by saying "there's subordination within the trinity" but there's no verse states that.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Here’s another that gives a great example of the meaning of “one” by Christ himself. We here could all be considered “one” as we are seeking the same truth.
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who believe in me because of their message. I pray that they may all be one. Father! May they be in us, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they be one, so that the world will believe that you sent me. I gave them the same glory you gave me, so that they may be one, just as you and I are one: I in them and you in me, so that they may be completely one, in order that the world may know that you sent me and that you love them as you love me. “Father! You have given them to me, and I want them to be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory, the glory you gave me; for you loved me before the world was made. Righteous Father! The world does not know you, but I know you, and these know that you sent me. I made you known to them, and I will continue to do so, in order that the love you have for me may be in them, and so that I also may be in them.” (John 17:20-26 GNTD)
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who believe in me because of their message. I pray that they may all be one. Father! May they be in us, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they be one, so that the world will believe that you sent me. I gave them the same glory you gave me, so that they may be one, just as you and I are one: I in them and you in me, so that they may be completely one, in order that the world may know that you sent me and that you love them as you love me. “Father! You have given them to me, and I want them to be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory, the glory you gave me; for you loved me before the world was made. Righteous Father! The world does not know you, but I know you, and these know that you sent me. I made you known to them, and I will continue to do so, in order that the love you have for me may be in them, and so that I also may be in them.” (John 17:20-26 GNTD)
Airola
Member
Was Christ God in the Old Testament?
Could you agree that Christ wasn’t made God until after his resurrection?
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.”
I Peter 1:1-12 NKJV
Is this quote of Scripture supposed to say that?
There is nothing that even remotely resembles anything like that.
On the other hand we have John writing that in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God. This was even before the Old Testament. And we have Jesus calling himself I AM - this happened before his death and resurrection and is directly connected to what was written in the Old Testament.
As you have talked about "inheritance" maybe that's the word that makes you think this is about Jesus inheriting God's "position" (or whatever you think happens there), but even that was about us sinners getting salvation as inheritance by faith.
Other than that, from that quote I can't even remotely find anything that in any way suggests Christ wasn't God in the Old Testament or that Christ was made God only after his resurrection. Really, there is nothing in that quote that is connected to anything like that.
This said, I appreciate the apology, but I hope you see that you "only seeking answers" has made you suggest people who don't think like you are not Christians and has made you even say "away from me, Satan" to someone without there really being anything that would give you any grounds of making that kind of a call.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Hey if there were people masquerading as children of God in Christ time I don’t even want to think of how great that number would be now. If things are being forced on people that are nowhere in scripture then I have no choice but to question everything. Anyway, here.
“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.””
Hebrews 1:1-9 NKJV
“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.””
Hebrews 1:1-9 NKJV
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VAL0R
Banned
When Jesus finally publicly reveals himself to the world and the high priest of Israel, he calls himself the "Son of Man" who is "coming on the clouds of heaven." His Jewish inquisitors would certainly have seen this obvious reference to Daniel 7. Jesus was here saying, 'Remember the divine Son of Man in Daniel's vision? The one who will be worshipped by peoples of all nations and languages, who has authority, glory and sovereign power, and whose kingdom will be everlasting? That's who I am.' The high priest becomes enraged, tears his clothes, and shouts "blasphemy!" Then they spat on Christ and struck him.
(Forgive the NIV translation - at work and easiest at the moment)
Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]
Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
[...]
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’
(Forgive the NIV translation - at work and easiest at the moment)
Matthew 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]
Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
[...]
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’
VAL0R
Banned
Thomas calls the resurrected Christ God.
John 20
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
John 20
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Did you just ignore the passage I posted?
Airola
Member
I hope you realize people will see exactly the same thing in you that what you see in them.
VAL0R
Banned
I'm not necessarily responding to you only, as I see that as a waste of time. I wanted to contribute some passages to the group discussion that show the deity of Christ. I honestly don't read a lot of your posts because I also find them to be a waste of time.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
No. There’s no mention of any of the various “straw men” as you say in scripture. But only things made up by people on their own and every time I ask a question I get no answers. I have no problem answering your questions but when I ask something simple like why are you asking the resting to pray for me, I’m met with silence.
I literally hand you scripture where The Father makes Christ heir and God calls Christ God himself and says He is doing so for the salvation He had brought to us and you toss it out
I literally hand you scripture where The Father makes Christ heir and God calls Christ God himself and says He is doing so for the salvation He had brought to us and you toss it out
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Can you show me Shekinah in scripture? Can you show me one time where God isn’t referred to with masculine pronouns from Genesis to Revelation?
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I will not sit around arguing with heretics all day. I’m sure you “could go into” these verses if you’ve spent a lot of time buying into all sorts of heretical nonsense without proper comparative study (Prov 17:18), but the unwillingness to accept reality is terribly clear when the record of responses to Christ (uncorrected by him) and historical belief and apostolic succession is completely clear. God is not such a failure. All these ridiculous heretical semantics are exactly the type of “disputing about words” that Paul says to flee because it only harms and stirs quarrels. That garbage is not Christianity.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
As soon as you show me where Mary or Joan of Arc is an intercessor.
I think the passages from Hebrews are pretty clear. Anyway heres my testimony as as you can see in this thread I’ve often struggled with how Christ could be God if the Father is God. All truth has been revealed to me on this through scripture and I thank the Father God, as well as Christ God, His son for his patience, Grace and for allowing the spirit to reveal this truth even though I deserve nothing. All praise, honor and glory to you forever My King and my God, Christ, Yeshua King of Israel!
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
You started of with "If one is willing to make up hamfisted excuses for John 1:1 then there is no limit for them," then I suggest starting off with something different as if no one knows what they're actually talking about.
The bible is clear that the father is the only true God and I don't use logic or take scriptures out of content to prove a doctrine that is not taught in the scriptures.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Yes, God is merely a title, not a name.
Angels and Judges were called gods.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?
Psalm 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
Definition of Thoes.
Θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way: Hebraistically, equivalent to God's representative or vicegerent, of magistrates and judges,
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Back to the intercessor thing though since it’s somehow allowed outside of Christ and the Holy Spirit, what do you guys make of Bro. Francis asking that one Muslim guy to pray for him? I don’t believe “Allah” is God of the Old Testament as muhammad says Christ was just a prophet and as you can see here, Muhammad seems to hold greater value than Christ in the Nation of Islam 
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As soon as you show me where Mary or Joan of Arc is an intercessor.
I’m not catholic, so I agree with you on that
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Here’s to your question earlier.
http://torahinkingdom.com/shekinah-yhwh-targums/
When I first started studying scripture years ago, upon reading genesis when it says “let us make man in our image” (man possiblymeaning mankind and both Adam and Eve) I wondered if God had a wife. By the time I got to the NT I realized the “us” was God and Christ but revelation 12 made me question the whole wife thing again and that’s when I found that in Judaism the Shekinah is thought of as God’s feminine counterpart.
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
Thought today. Bro. Francis remarked that God makes people a certain way. To that I say it is God who brings people out of such darkness and draws them nearer to Him.
VAL0R
Banned
What sect do you belong to? JWs?
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