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[MisterShine]

Man, fuck this useless statue. No one gives a fuck about this genocidal piece of shut...

He is one of the most easily identifiable singular catalytic figures of history. Nothing that happens post-1500's occurs the way that it does without his actions, and certainly not the founding of the country the statue is located in.

Your statement is incredibly ignorant.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Not a single one of those is revered as a hero or has a national day today though.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Perceptions

Genghis Khan is on Mongolian money, their biggest airport is named after him, he's got dozens of monuments, and his birthday is a national holiday. He's the Mongolian George Washington. And he killed and enslaved millions.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

He is one of the most easily identifiable singular catalytic figures of history. Nothing that happens post-1500's occurs the way that it does without his actions, and certainly not the founding of the country the statue is located in.

Your statement is incredibly ignorant.

Oh, I apologize for insulting frilly explorer Hitler. Let me rephrase.

I do not give a single fuck about this genocidal piece of shit, and I am happy the statue was torn down.

 

[gutter_trash]

He is one of the most easily identifiable singular catalytic figures of history. Nothing that happens post-1500's occurs the way that it does without his actions, and certainly not the founding of the country the statue is located in.

Your statement is incredibly ignorant.

not necessarily, if the English and the French did not follow up in Northern USA and Canada, the USA would be Mexico+

Many explorers where competing for notoriety during this era after the Ottoman closed off land routes to Asia.

It would have been a matter of time that anyone circling the African continent would bounce into the Caribbeans and Brazil.

Cod fishermen knew about Newfoundland for centuries, Leif Ericson landed in Greenland and Newfoundland 500 years prior to Columbus setting foot in modern day Haiti.

It was common knowledge among scientists and the educated that the World was Round.

Attributing all credit to Columbus alone is over-rating this genocider.

Magellan was the real deal in globe trotting and was more skilled when it came to going around the world

 

[Necro900]

"It's only erasing history when our shitty monuments to shitty people that everyone knows about are destroyed".

Can't believe they tore down the Berlin Wall, who will remember the Deutsche Demokratische Republik now?!

Psst Ziltoid, as omniscient being you should know that parts of the berlin wall have been kept up for posterity and are regularly crowded tourist spots. Go figure.

Also, nevermind the crappy analogy,right? They were tearing down the wall back then and for legitimate reason. A more apt example would be someone bringing the remaining parts down today, in 2017, with a bulldozer. And you would allow that. Fuck history I guess.

It's no use debating here, I see people keep ignoring the fact that nobody can decide on its own to destroy a monument. It's illegal and wrong on so many levels that it's ridiculous we are discussing it.

Fun fact: years ago, during the excavation for the new darsena in Milan a fascist-era symbol was brought to light. This one, infact. You can believe me when I say I truly despise fascism and extreme right wing thought in general, but I would NEVER, EVER think of defacing or destroying the thing. I guess respect for history and art in general is not something you get taught at school. And, as it even says in the footnote to the picture, that piece has to be protected (as it's testimony to that particular dark period in history). And believe me, that IS something, since Milan has always been one of the symbol cities of anti-fascism and partisans.

Respect your art and history instead of promoting these reckless acts of idiocy.

 

[Majmun]

How would America look today if it weren't for Columbus?

I'm sure another person would've done his job eventually.

He's a very important historical figure.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

How would America look today if it weren't for Colombus?

I'm sure another person would've done his job eventually.

He's a very important historical figure.

Who cares?!

It's a STUPID STATUE.

This entire thing is ridiculous to me.

 

[gutter_trash]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_fishing_in_Newfoundland

After his voyage in 1497, John Cabot's crew reported that

"the sea there is full of fish that can be taken not only with nets but with fishing-baskets".

In the early sixteenth century, fishermen from England, France, Spain and Portugal discovered the best places to fish for cod in the waters off Newfoundland, and how best to preserve the fish for the journey home

one way or another, another would have filled his shoes

 

[Ordinaryundone]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_fishing_in_Newfoundland



one way or another, another would have filled his shoes

What-ifs aren't really the best way to argue about history though. Certainly the New World would have been "discovered" eventually, but who did it and why could be considerably different and may have led to significant differences down the road. Colombus was was the quickest and the highest profile so he gets the credit. It's not like he did nothing, anyway, there is a big difference between knowing something is there and having the balls to make a 3 month sea voyage across uncharted waters to get there.

 

[Nepenthe]

Sorry for comparing you to a Trump supporter, but I don't want to get down in the mud when it comes to this stuff on the internet. I think we both support the same general ideas, it's minor stuff like agreeing with vandalizing that we don't agree on.

Statues these days are not left there because they change or don't change anyone's mind. They are left to represent a historical event. If you don't want that in your public square, take it to a museum or somewhere where it can be shown, as I said earlier, in the proper context. Vandalizing is not the way to go, I think.

I agree with laws right before the point where I automatically consider them equivalent to moral considerations. Laws can be immoral or useless (I can't imagine GAF during America's slavery days when it would be illegal to aid the escape of human beings from their bondage.) I personally don't make it a point to break laws regardless of how I view them individually, but I don't automatically consider a broken law an immediate condemnation of character.

Anyways, I don't think it's necessarily correct to consider statues as doing nothing more than commemorating historical events. Again, most of the shit Columbus is celebrated for isn't true, so many of the statues don't actually commemorate anything that happened. It's also a little disingenuous to ignore why certain events are commemorated over others. Defenders of the Columbus,statues say it was done for Italian American acceptance. Confederate statues were erected to let people like me know that we weren't shit despite emancipation. These are the underlying contexts people are conducting these conversations in, not just whether or not they're remembering something.

 

[gutter_trash]

What-ifs aren't really the best way to argue about history though. Certainly the New World would have been "discovered" eventually, but who did it and why could be considerably different and may have led to significant differences down the road. Colombus was was the quickest and the highest profile so he gets the credit. It's not like he did nothing, anyway, there is a big difference between knowing something is there and having the balls to make a 3 month sea voyage across uncharted waters to get there.

look man, Columbus is grossly over-rated by Americans. FACT

you guys look at history solely from your narrow lenses.

the truth is that many countries were competing in the Seas to secure trade routes.

Columbus' mission was not about "discovering new lands", his mission was to secure a maritime route to Asia. His theory was about going "West".

Other European countries were already securing their routes to Asia not by going around the world but by wrapping around Africa to get to India and they did.

Further exploration toward China and Japan continued for more trade routes snagging.

This whole notion that Columbus was "balsy" for going into "uncharted waters" is an American invention into turning him into an adventurer which he was not.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Again, so was Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Shaka Zulu, and dozens and dozens of historical figures still celebrated to this day. History is complicated, you absolutely cannot boil it down to a black and white situation. A strong argument could be made that without Colombus modern Latin and Northern America don't exist in their current form. Him killing a lot of people doesn't change that.

Julius Caesar wasn't considered an inhumane monster while he lived. Dude was like FOR mixed with Obama mixed with Putin, in terms of his reputation in Rome.

Edit: Columbus was important, but not having statues of him in public spaces is fine.

 

[MisterShine]

Oh, I apologize for insulting frilly explorer Hitler. Let me rephrase...

He's been dead for centuries, your insults are meaningless, as is your anger. He is a tremendously important figure in both world history and the history of this country. He has more than earned a memorial statue or two. And one especially that is nearly as old as this country needs to be preserved.

..
Attributing all credit to Columbus alone is over-rating this genocider.

He personally was the one who made that expedition happen by not letting it go when several bankrollers told him 'no'. He was the one who sent word they had a bunch of shit to take that got the Euro powers interested. Obviously he didn't do everything himself, and the discovery and invasion of the Americas would happen eventually regardless, but everything kicking off the way that it did is pretty much squarely on him. For good and bad.

 

[gutter_trash]

He's been dead for centuries, your insults are meaningless, as is your anger. He is a tremendously important figure in both world history and the history of this country. He has more than earned a memorial statue or two. And one especially that is nearly as old as this country needs to be preserved.



He personally was the one who made that expedition happen by not letting it go when several bankrollers told him 'no'. He was the one who sent word they had a bunch of shit to take that got the Euro powers interested. Obviously he didn't do everything himself, and the discovery and invasion of the Americas would happen regardless, but everything kicking off the way that it did is pretty much squarely on him. For good and bad.

Bankrollers told him no because Dias and Da Gama of Portugal were already charting a route around Africa to get to India. Da Gama landed in India in 1498.

The point of the mission was not about discovering a new continent, it was about securing maritime trade routes to Asia. (because the Ottoman cut access on land)

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Julius Caesar wasn't considered an inhumane monster while he lived. Dude was like FOR mixed with Obama mixed with Putin, in terms of his reputation in Rome.

Edit: Columbus was important, but not having statues of him in public spaces is fine.

Ask the people of Gaul what they thought of Caesar. Or modern day Germany. Or the British Celts. Caesar committed so many war crimes (and I do mean actual war crimes, by his own standards) that other Senators like Cato actually motioned to have him handed over to his enemies for trial. To people Cato would have willingly considered barbarians! Caesar was popular amongst the people because he was a huge populist, but there is a reason the whole Republic went into civil war when he tried to take control.

Edit: What mean to say is, this perception depends on who and where you are. Mongolians love Genghis Khan, the rest of the world considered him the scourge of God while he lived. Historical context plays a huge role in looking back like this.

 

[MisterShine]

Bankrollers told him no because Dias and Da Gama of Portugal were already charting a route around Africa to get to India. Da Gama landed in India in 1498.

The point of the mission was not about discovering a new continent, it was about securing maritime trade routes to Asia. (because the Ottoman cut access on land)

This is completely irrelevant information. He made a colossal mistake that should've got him and all his men killed by thinking he could get to India. He's a terrible cartographer and sailor, but he found a place unknown to the Eurpoean powers, determined they had wealth to take, and reported it to everyone, kicking off the expansion westward that founded the modern world as we know it.

That his actions were based on his faulty understanding just makes no difference at all, unless someone is arguing him to be the greatest mathematician, map maker, scientist, etc. Which no one is doing. He didn't mean to make his discovery, and he never believed he was wrong up until his death, but that doesn't make it less important.

 

[TirMcGrey]

Artisans put a lot of work into confederate statues too and we all know what they were all about. How do you feel about those being up?

Except most of those were mass produced and cheaply made around the months of significantly important times in getting equal rights to African Americans. Look at the videos of them collapsing easily before they even get torn down.

That said, that Columbus statue should have been moved to a museum. As much of a shitlord as he was

 

[Media]

You are .1% of the population, but I want to believe a lot of people would side with you if you brought this up. It would at the very least be on the news (since anything like this is on the news these days).

We have been talking about it for ages. No one cares.

https://youtu.be/fYTXRDtYzYc

The reality is that almost nobody actually gives a fuck about Colombus. There is no grade school kid who sees Colombus as his hero, and 99.9% of people who "Celebrate" Colombus Day are just happy to have a day off work and couldn't give less of a shit about why they got off.

Nobody uses Colombus Day as a day to brush up on their American history and idolize the person the day is named after. They use it to dick around on a free day off.

I mean, that makes it better? Call it Dick Off Day then.

 

[Caelus]

I mean, that makes it better? Call it Dick Off Day then.

Or better yet, Indigenous People's Day, as a few regions are calling it anyway.

 

[Media]

Or better yet, Indigenous People's Day, as a few regions are calling it anyway.

At this point we could call it Nothing Day and I'd be happier than what it is now lol

 

[Zen_Arcade]

We have been talking about it for ages. No one cares.

https://youtu.be/fYTXRDtYzYc



I mean, that makes it better? Call it Dick Off Day then.

I wasn't really debating what would be better or worse. My point was that they could call it damn near anything, and except for a handful of people who get their dick in a twist any time people change anything about the country, most people wouldn't care in the slightest as long as they don't have to go to work.

My point was that Columbus isn't the icon you think he is in 2017. No kids are walking around idolizing Columbus or calling him their hero, and the vast majority of adults don't give a shit about Columbus Day because of the historical significance of the man it's named after. They care because they get a paid day off work.

 

[ahoyhoy]

This is completely irrelevant information. He made a colossal mistake that should've got him and all his men killed by thinking he could get to India. He's a terrible cartographer and sailor, but he found a place unknown to the Eurpoean powers, determined they had wealth to take, and reported it to everyone, kicking off the expansion westward that founded the modern world as we know it.

That his actions were based on his faulty understanding just makes no difference at all, unless someone is arguing him to be the greatest mathematician, map maker, scientist, etc. Which no one is doing. He didn't mean to make his discovery, and he never believed he was wrong up until his death, but that doesn't make it less important.

gutter doesn't care about any of this. Their only argument is that someone would have done it "eventually", which is a shit argument historically since it can be applied to literally any individual actor in history.

 

[gutter_trash]

gutter doesn't care about any of this. Their only argument is that someone would have done it "eventually", which is a shit argument historically since it can be applied to literally any individual actor in history.

You're late to the party.

I already called Columbus Il Genocidotorre di Genova a few pages back.

And I labeled him as a genocidal maniac repeatedly.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Nah, it's still vandalism. You can agree with it, but it is what it is.
And nothing about the monument was specifically celebrating the genocidal aspects.
As I have said many many many times, these monuments were usually dedicated through organizations fighting for the rights of Italian-Americans, not as some way to glorify the horrible deeds Columbus acted upon indigenous peoples. It's kind of frustrating that everyone seems to want to gloss over that historical relevance.

No matter how you want to spin it, he was still a very important part of history.
A very very ugly part of history, but his actions did play a part in shaping the world into what it is today.

That bolded part though... you might want to re-phrase that because it sounds like you want to deny those two aspects in regards to the history of the Americas.
I really don't think trying to brush all the ugly parts of our history under the rug is a good idea.

You say you don't want to associate the national identity with colonialism and slavery?
As unfortunate as the truth is, those are absolutely part of the national identity and the country was built on those aspects and the horrible acts carried out in their name.

I am not saying people like Columbus should be honored, but you can't really divorce the birth of of the U.S. and many other countries in the Americas from those truths.

Our national identity should not be sugar-coated by only recognizing the good aspects of our history. I hope that through these discussions popping up in recent weeks, the country could come to understand that but I'm not very hopeful.

Christopher Columbus is the symbol of slavery and colonization, not of anti-racism against italian. If he was used to fight the racism against italians, it's just unfortunate, because he is one of the worst character that "Italy" (non-existent in the time of Colombus btw) have produced.

Of course, i meant by "national identity" what part of history the nation take pride in. What define the "American Spirit" if you will. It must be the people who fought slavery and colonization, not the slavers and the colonizers. So you can't have monument publicly celebrating those. I can feel a sense of belonging if my nation is officially endorsing a criminal as an heroe.

Let me point out that unless your parents/forebears were immigrants from Africa, you're a full 100% African American as all descendants of slaves qualify as being "partly" African.

This is HS but i'm multi-racial in the sense that my father is mainly white.

 

[gutter_trash]

Double post

 

[Always-honest]

Maybe there was a Da Vinci code thingy in there....

 

[mckmas8808]

His rule of Hispaniola was too monstrous for Spain.

I knew 0% of this!

 

[IceCold]

Maybe there was a Da Vinci code thingy in there....

A lot of theories out there that say he's not Italian, or that he was a spy, etc. Some do seem pretty plausible...

The theories would make for a cool movie.

 

[PopeReal]

On Animal Crossing it is called Explorer Day.

I don't want to lose the holiday as we have so few in the United States so make the change. Tom Nook said so.

 

[y2dvd]

How would America look today if it weren't for Columbus?

I'm sure another person would've done his job eventually.

He's a very important historical figure.

So was Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin...

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

How would America look today if it weren't for Columbus?

I'm sure another person would've done his job eventually.

He's a very important historical figure.

Imagine what would be America today with an indigenous modernity who would have form distincts civilizations between Aztecs, the Andean cultures inherited from the Incas, a federation of north-american native societies.

Africa would also have developed as a multitude of strong civilizations, without being drained out for natural resources and workforce by the slavers who needed those for extracting the natural resources of America.

So yeah, go to hell. Columbus represent the destruction of entires civilizations and the corruption of the western civilization.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

My fucking god. The Collosseum. The Great Pyramid of Giza. Next we're going to see people liken the vadalization of this Christopher Columbus statue in Baltimore, Maryland to the burning of the Library of Alexandria.

lolllll

It's not even a statue, to boot. It's a mediocre obelisk with a plaque. Who the fuck cares.

With that kind of attitude, I no longer wonder why Trump won. both sides wharrgarbl.

omg not this shit again and again

With this kind of stupid fallacious thinking being so ubiquitous, it's "no wonder why Trump won", indeed.

You are .1% of the population, but I want to believe a lot of people would side with you if you brought this up. It would at the very least be on the news (since anything like this is on the news these days).

Hahahahahaha what

 

[mckmas8808]

He is one of the most easily identifiable singular catalytic figures of history. Nothing that happens post-1500's occurs the way that it does without his actions, and certainly not the founding of the country the statue is located in.

Your statement is incredibly ignorant.

if this was true, then why was he stripped of his Governorship by Portugal?

 

[televator]

Except most of those were mass produced and cheaply made around the months of significantly important times in getting equal rights to African Americans. Look at the videos of them collapsing easily before they even get torn down.

That said, that Columbus statue should have been moved to a museum. As much of a shitlord as he was

Already addressed the points previously.

 

[NewGame]

You're the one who innvoked that imagery, that's some intellectually dishonest and subversive trash. I'm not here for this slippery slope concern trolling nonsense. Who here actually believes that Christopher Columbus should be venerated? Show me someone and I'll show you a racist who has no regard for indigenous people/poc. Making a monument to for columbus is incongruous with the ideals that this country purports itself to believe in.

Nice, if we're not with you, destroying statues, then we (The people who disagree with vandalism) must be the polar opposite neo-nazi loving slavers? You're the intellectually dishonest one here: the world is not binary like you'd like it to be.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Christopher Columbus is the symbol of slavery and colonization, not of anti-racism against italian. If he was used to fight the racism against italians, it's just unfortunate, because he is one of the worst character that "Italy" (non-existent in the time of Colombus btw) have produced.

Of course, i meant by "national identity" what part of history the nation take pride in. What define the "American Spirit" if you will. It must be the people who fought slavery and colonization, not the slavers and the colonizers. So you can't have monument publicly celebrating those. I can feel a sense of belonging if my nation is officially endorsing a criminal as an heroe.



This is HS but i'm multi-racial in the sense that my father is mainly white.

These monuments were not put up with the intent of celebrating slavery and colonization.
You can believe that in your head-canon but I think the opinions of the people who actually campaigned for these monuments as a way to reduce tensions over immigrants bear more weight in context.
I still agree that change should be made, but not through destruction because even if they were mis-guided these monuments do hold historical value.

Because Italian-Americans were struggling against religious and ethnic discrimination in the United States, many in the community saw celebrating the life and accomplishments of Christopher Columbus as a way for Italian Americans to be accepted by the mainstream. As historian Christopher J. Kauffman once wrote, "Italian Americans grounded legitimacy in a pluralistic society by focusing on the Genoese explorer as a central figure in their sense of peoplehood."

The first state to officially observe Columbus Day was Colorado in 1906. Instrumental in the creation of the holiday was Angelo Noce, an Italian immigrant who was the founder of Colorado's first Italian newspaper, La Stella.


In New York City, the annual Columbus Day parade is a celebration of Italian-American heritage.
Mario Tama/Getty Images
Noce and fellow Italian-American Siro Mangini dreamed of honoring Christopher Columbus and worked with Colorado's first Hispanic state Sen. Casimiro Barela, to sponsor a bill proposing a Columbus Day holiday. (Interestingly, Siro Mangini owned a tavern named after Columbus. As his daughter recalled, "He finally decided to call it Christopher Columbus Hall, thinking that he was [the] one Italian [that] Americans would not throw rocks at.") Within five years of Colorado's creating the holiday, 14 other states were also celebrating Columbus Day.

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...us-sailed-into-u-s-history-thanks-to-italians

Imagine what would be America today with an indigenous modernity who would have form distincts civilizations between Aztecs, the Andean cultures inherited from the Incas, a federation of north-american native societies.

Africa would also have developed as a multitude of strong civilizations, without being drained out for natural resources and workforce by the slavers who needed those for extracting the natural resources of America.

So yeah, go to hell. Columbus represent the destruction of entires civilizations and the corruption of the western civilization.

While, that is an amazing fantasy nothing really points to anything like that ever being possible. I only really studied North-American native cultures in depth
but they were constantly at war with each other and many of the tribes kept war captives as slaves, etc.
Not trying to justify colonization or anything mind you, but you are just going from one sugar-coated fantasy (Columbus as a hero) to another.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

While, that is an amazing fantasy nothing really points to anything like that ever being possible. I only really studied North-American native cultures in depth
but they were constantly at war with each other and many of the tribes kept war captives as slaves, etc.
Not trying to justify colonization or anything mind you, but you are just going from one sugar-coated fantasy (Columbus as a hero) to another.

As european nations were constantly at war during the same time. Really, until the second half of the last century.

So, i'm not saying that pre-colonization america was heaven on earth, but America (and Africa) today will be way better off without western colonization occurring. It's not fantasy, it's just logical. The colonial disruption destroyed Africa's societies and economies. Whole civilizations were completely destroyed in America.
Europe though, would never have gotten to make the industrial revolution, since it rely on stoled natural resource and free workforce of african slaves.

These monuments were not put up with the intent of celebrating slavery and colonization.

Who said they were ? Who care about the intent.