NegroNinja
Member
Europeans?
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Christopher Columbus monument vandalized in Baltimore
- Thread starter ponpo
- Start date
Europeans?
A Link to the Past
Banned
In a vacuum sure, but context is also important.
TBiddy
Member
Do you think it's acceptable for a mob to decide which statues are OK and which aren't, and is it acceptable for the same mob to tear down or destroy the statues which they deem "not OK"?
MadJackChurchill
Banned
High on rejecting popular culture and its idolization of a mass murderer?
Yeah there's no nuance allowed, apparently.
Are you seriously comparing a few vandals to the STATE ENDORSED Cultural Revolution/Great Purge/Nazi book-burning campaigns? Or were you going for Daesh? Because that's totally the same. Removing ancient architecture for a sect of Islam they want eradicated versus a couple of people smashing a statue of the worst sailor of all time? How can you come up with this?
Man, if only there was as much outrage and reverence for the people Columbus and his ideology killed across the centuries as there is for this fucking statue then, well... there probably wouldn't be a statue to destroy in the first place.
Fact is, America is built on white supremacy. So! If we're going to make any headway on beating that shit back down to the depths of hell where it belongs, that means actual physical collateral damage to a lot of the stuff we take for granted because it actively reveres the people and symbols that oppress those actually living today (which is why a lot of the slippery slope "oh the humanity, where does it end?!!!" examples don't really make a whole lot of sense). Stuff needs to be renamed, crossed out, and torn down alongside more relevant political activism. Like, seriously, I await for the day we really get fed up after another white woman is killed or something, and just sand-blast the carving off of fucking Stone Mountain. No, I don't give a damn that it's been up there for that long or was made by a revered artist- it's a middle finger to me just for the way I was born.
Columbus is the same way. He was a fucking genocidal maniac who concerned the assholes back in his day at how mental he was and basically didn't do any of the shit he's popularly known for. You might as well put up a statue of me and say I colonized Mars, and then demand people not tear it down because "history". Fuck that.
Fact is, America is built on white supremacy. So! If we're going to make any headway on beating that shit back down to the depths of hell where it belongs, that means actual physical collateral damage to a lot of the stuff we take for granted because it actively reveres the people and symbols that oppress those actually living today (which is why a lot of the slippery slope "oh the humanity, where does it end?!!!" examples don't really make a whole lot of sense). Stuff needs to be renamed, crossed out, and torn down alongside more relevant political activism. Like, seriously, I await for the day we really get fed up after another white woman is killed or something, and just sand-blast the carving off of fucking Stone Mountain. No, I don't give a damn that it's been up there for that long or was made by a revered artist- it's a middle finger to me just for the way I was born.
Columbus is the same way. He was a fucking genocidal maniac who concerned the assholes back in his day at how mental he was and basically didn't do any of the shit he's popularly known for. You might as well put up a statue of me and say I colonized Mars, and then demand people not tear it down because "history". Fuck that.
Necro900
Member
How can you come up with establishing that there are "nuances" in the act of destroying monuments. Educating people on the figure of Columbus is your school system's job, not some thugs', especially if the solution you suggest is destroying centuries old art.
And it's totally the same, yes, since there's no superior or lesser history, it's all part of an heritage we should protect and, most importantly, learn from.
If you destroy a monument in the name of your personal ideals, then you are no better than those fanatics in Palmyra, or no better than a fascist regime's way of dealing with history.
The idea that you're "destroying the popular cultural image of Columbus" with this deed is, frankly speaking, bullshit, and you should be ashamed of suggesting this as a viable way of educating people on historical figures.
That statue should've been put in a museum, period. There's multiple ways for a community to request the removal of a monument/plaque/whathaveyou deemed offensive, none of these involve a sledgehammer. You're defending a crime.
Gonna wait for your exhaustive list of monuments that are A-OK for destruction with a sledgehammer. Please do take into account all those fine fine nuances upon deciding sledgehammer yes/no.
It's ok if we do it
Give it a 30 seconds honest thought and you'll realize yourself that this assumption is bs and it's dangerous.
Pfffffft!
NegroNinja
Member
Somebody call Ja Rule.
Fixed that for you
Is incredible that the spanish/portugueses that coined the "America" name never touched american soil because gringos believe that america is only their country
Necro900
Member
It's not my job to spark your interest for history and art or to explain you why the smallest terracotta shitter from Pompeii is as valuable as a Reinassance painting, but at least don't go around implying art you disagree with should be destroyed with a sledgehammer.
Or at least tone down the sarcasm if you have nothing to say
BudokaiMR2
Member
All the people harping on about context also seem to keep ignoring the fact that most of his monuments were put up by organizations as a way to fight racism against Italian-Americans. Although,I still think his monuments should be re-evaluated, they were not put up with the idea of 'Oh hell yeah did you hear how many natives he massacred? Now that's a dude who needs a statue!' as so many seem to insuiate.
A ton were put up (and his legacy embellished ) as a way to build common ground between those immigrants and locals as part of the national identity. It was obviously misguided and probably from a place of ignorance but the intent was very different from the Jim Crow era statues.
No one seems to want to discuss this though, even though it's another example of prejudice and how the minority groups basically built up a (mostly fantasy) figure to battle against such prejudice.
I fee like in that context there is enough historical value in his statues just because of what he meant to those Italian-Americans. Although to be honest I think this particular monument might pre-date that movement.
SaviourMK2
Member
Racism Tear It Down? toward a Columbus statue?
I mean I knew he was an asshat, but was he a racist?
I mean I knew he was an asshat, but was he a racist?
TBiddy
Member
Or at least tone down the sarcasm if you have nothing to say
Sarcasm usually works better if there's actually a valid point. The post you quoted just made no sense, what so ever. It's just as bad as most of the "most-liked" posts on any post made by a politician on Facebook.
His Majesty
Banned
You're completely right. Sadly a lot of people have trouble distinguishing between historical artifacts and the historical figures themselves. I see people here advocating for the destruction of historical artifacts based on the personality and deeds of the historical figure represented. That is a completely backwards way to treat history. Cultural heritage is not evil. It simply tells a story on multiple aspects, be it cultural, architectural or sociological. It is up to us to interpret, preserve and present it within the proper context. And I would argue the same for any other historically valuable artifact.
And to me, and actual historians, the first monument in the United States attributed to Christopher Columbus certainly seems historically valuable.
Reading some of the reactions this seems like a difficult concept to grasp for people without any interest in history.
I'm not questioning the value of a shitter from Pompeii to a Renaissance painting. I'm questioning the intellectual honesty of someone comparing one of HUNDREDS of Christopher Columbus statues to some of the most relevant structures in human history.It's not my job to spark your interest for history and art or to explain you why the smallest terracotta shitter from Pompeii is as valuable as a Reinassance painting, but at least don't go around implying art you disagree with should be destroyed with a sledgehammer.
Or at least tone down the sarcasm if you have nothing to say
It's okay to just say you value order above morality. That argument is a lot sounder to me than appeals to "preserve history".
He had a belief that europeans were superior to native americans. Viewing in that way, he was racist.
Now the question is how much you can judge him that way since it was pretty common for europeans to believe that. He still is a big symbol for the opression from europeans to americans though
For all the bad Columbus did he was a key influential figure in what has become "the west" and America as we know it today. Whether your opinion on him is good or bad to vandalize a statue of him is destroying some important world history this is an absolutely idiotic action.
Hes a figure from over 500 years ago of course he was racist and oppressive society has come a long way since then (yes even with the mess the west is in now). But does that mean we should destroy things like this? Are people resurrecting the ideals of Christopher Columbus like they are with the confederacy?
Hes a figure from over 500 years ago of course he was racist and oppressive society has come a long way since then (yes even with the mess the west is in now). But does that mean we should destroy things like this? Are people resurrecting the ideals of Christopher Columbus like they are with the confederacy?
Its revisionist history. Something that fits neatly into a Hallmark card. No one has time for the historically accurate accounting or even cares as everything around is is continually re-invented. This is not historically significant art, it is not overly significant.
People gravitate towards this historical bullshit thats easier to chew on than the truth. Then, when it is taken away or exposed as a fraud, get upset.
People gravitate towards this historical bullshit thats easier to chew on than the truth. Then, when it is taken away or exposed as a fraud, get upset.
His Majesty
Banned
Shouldn't you leave the assessment of the historical value of statues, monuments and other artifacts to the professionals? Or don't you trust the experts?
BudokaiMR2
Member
Read my post above. While it is very revisionist it was done that way by organizations who were trying to increase recognition for Italian-Americans and reduce discrimination against them.
With that in mind, do you still believe it has 0 historical value? Those activists who co-opted and embellished his legacy were ignorant and misguided but in the end it was for a noble cause. I don't really feel their accomplishments should be destroyed by sledgehammers. Moved from public spaces and put in a museum with better context? Sure,that seems like a good idea.
How on Earth is destroying the statue destroying world history?!?!?! The barbaric murderous shit Columbus did is not undone with the defamation of a memorial to him.
What experts are you referring to precisely? The ones in this thread who keep likening one of the three statues of Christopher Colombus in Baltimore to artifacts from the great civilizations of antiquity?
A Link to the Past
Banned
It's more okay, yes, because the comparison never really involves a legitimate grievance that the right has over a monument.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
So the Soviets should've kept the giant Swastika up on top of the Reichstag because that's their history. You've conflated learning from the past with honouring the past. Columbus was known for being a POS for decades, Italian Americans have done so damn much for America that there is absolutely no need to have a rapist of hundreds of thousands natives immortalized in public. Take it to a museum? Why? What possible historical value does it have? "Hey, here's a monument to that guy you learn about in grade school" - whoo?
It's not 'deemed offensive', you're scoping this in a way that trivializes the fact that he killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, it's not personal fucking ideals to want a single fucking monument gone; his crimes are objective fact in history that are still on the records, we're not burning books here. Can you not see the difference, honestly?
Chittagong
Gold Member
Anything less than changing the name back from New York to its original name Mennahatenk, as it was known before the white suppressors arrived, is unacceptable.
TBiddy
Member
Are you of the opinion that every existing statue depicting someone who was a barbaric murdering asshole should be destroyed? Or is it only those of Columbus? Or where do you draw the line?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I can sympathise with wanting the statue removed, but this one really did qualify as 'history'. Over 200 years old and placed shortly after Independence? It really was the sort of thing that belonged in a museum, it's not a dime-a-dozen knock-off like most of the Confederate statues.
His Majesty
Banned
The people on the Baltimore City Commission for Historical and Architectural Preservation, I assume. Or other art historians. I doubt you'll find many arguing for the destruction of the statue.
I'm also curious what people would do about another Columbus statue, this one is located in Barcelona and was constructed in 1888. Maybe this is a more apt comparison than other examples suggested here.
Tear it down, use a sledgehammer or go for explosives?
Tear down the Statue of Liberty, because we don't need monuments for history! :3
Also: French people were super racist back in the day when the US got the statue. And a suppresive colonial power. Let's get the sledgehammer and go to work!
A city's board on historic preservation. Gotcha.
Okay, I'll break this down further since my point is being lost. People in this thread should stop comparing this fucking statue to items of far greater historical importance to help bolster their argument. It makes them look foolish, and ironically clueless on the historical value of, well, anything they're discussing.
And with regards to your Barcelona statue, I'd vote explosives, as long as no one was at risk of being injured.
TTOOLL
Member
Of course people here think it's ok.......until someone starts taking down statues of people they like. That would be unacceptable.
His Majesty
Banned
And you are missing my point that you are not even remotely qualified to decide upon the historical importance of artifacts, let alone dismiss them as worthless. So you best stop using that as your main argument for destroying this statue.
This slope is not slippery, and people seem to keep thinking it is. This would not be the first time in history statues of a person we're removed for memorializing the heinous actions of the person celebrated.
What next? Nazi style book burning right around the corner!!
teruterubozu
Member
How about we teach history more accurately in schools so people understand the controversies? All destruction does is perpetuate an us vs. them mentality.
TBiddy
Member
You didn't answer my question. Instead of snarky remarks about nazi book burnings, it'd be more fun for both of us with an actual discussion about where the line is drawn.
Please. You cited a city board on historic preservation as foremost experts, political bodies who regularly label abandoned laundry mats as worthy of historic preservation as long as enough home owners complain about new construction.
His Majesty
Banned
You're right. But while I understand the actions of East-European countries destroying all statues referring to communism, I still regret that they are now lost to us forever. They would have made an awesome museum collection. I am less understanding for advocating for the destruction of a statue commemorating a person who lived 500 years ago.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/20/...ot-destroy-confederate-monuments.html?mcubz=3
Not on the Columbus controversy but a similar topic concerning the removal or destruction of art.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Who likes Columbus?
Genocidal murderers with false taught histories.
I also liked the jab at the 'snarky remarks' when that comparison was literally already made in this thread.
chromatic9
Member
The people destroying the statue/monument say the same thing, that the statues create an us vs them mentality.
His Majesty
Banned
They're wrong. A statue in and of itself does nothing. The context is what matters.
I'm glad you never got your hands on the ultimate war propaganda piece De Bello Gallico or a lot of knowledge would have been lost to us.
TBiddy
Member
You were clearly using it to try and undermine me, which is unfair, since I've never compared it to that.
But if you're setting the line at "genocidal murders with false taught histories", I'd assume you'd have to destroy quite many statues. History is written by the winners, as you know.
Comparing the situation in Europe post-WW2 with vandals destroying a 200 year old statue depicting a 500 year old guy.. well, yeah.
The Allies after WW2? The countries that were liberated from Soviet rule?
BudokaiMR2
Member
I think this might be my last post here as most people seem to gloss over this point and it's getting annoying.
I had a great teacher in High School who went off curriculum many times to teach about events such as the Trail of Tears in more detail than the single paragraph in the textbooks and such. Easily one of my best teachers ever.
I was taught that he was looked up to by many Italian immigrants hundreds of years ago and the holidays and monuments were put in place to build a shared history (although it was admittedly falsified and embellished) during a time when they were being heavily discriminated against.
Most Italian-Americans obviously don't get a flying fuck nowadays because for the most part they were successfully integrated into society, but this is about history and not just an issue of modern day morality, such as with the Confederate monuments put up long past the war to intimidate a people.
Now, I feel like l, putting aside some of the truth behind what he did which I understand is difficult and even impossible for most, this is an interesting part of history and still has lessons to teach.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
"It's only erasing history when our shitty monuments to shitty people that everyone knows about are destroyed".
Can't believe they tore down the Berlin Wall, who will remember the Deutsche Demokratische Republik now?!
A perfectly reasonable argument on his part. I'm of the opinion that I want the statues out of public spaces. I don't care if they're moved or destroyed, as long as they're gone.
Sickboy007
Member
I think we should look at the intent and historical context with which those monument were built. With confederate statues, you've got a pretty clear cut situation. With Columbus ones, the situation is murkier.
It's still an argument worth having, but excusing the wanton destruction of public property is only counterproductive.
It's still an argument worth having, but excusing the wanton destruction of public property is only counterproductive.
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