Support NeoGAF

[DevilFox]

Just yesterday I said "hopefully this vandalism doesn't take traction here" .. well, shit ( Here’s why Nelson’s column should be next )

It's not 'deemed offensive', you're scoping this in a way that trivializes the fact that he killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, it's not personal fucking ideals to want a single fucking monument gone; his crimes are objective fact in history that are still on the records, we're not burning books here. Can you not see the difference, honestly?

A crazy number of them died of smallpox and other diseases brought by Conquistadores in over a century of travels. But a colonization that led to thousands of deaths? I'm shocked.

 

[chromatic9]

They're wrong. A statue in and of itself does nothing. The context is what matters.

I don't think they're eliminating the context.

 

[MUnited83]

For all the bad Columbus did he was a key influential figure in what has become "the west" and America as we know it today. Whether your opinion on him is good or bad to vandalize a statue of him is destroying some important world history this is an absolutely idiotic action.

Hes a figure from over 500 years ago of course he was racist and oppressive society has come a long way since then (yes even with the mess the west is in now). But does that mean we should destroy things like this? Are people resurrecting the ideals of Christopher Columbus like they are with the confederacy?

He was already considered an inhumane monster while he lived.

 

[Nepenthe]

All the people harping on about context also seem to keep ignoring the fact that most of his monuments were put up by organizations as a way to fight racism against Italian-Americans. Although,I still think his monuments should be re-evaluated, they were not put up with the idea of 'Oh hell yeah did you hear how many natives he massacred? Now that's a dude who needs a statue!' as so many seem to insuiate.

A ton were put up (and his legacy embellished ) as a way to build common ground between those immigrants and locals as part of the national identity. It was obviously misguided and probably from a place of ignorance but the intent was very different from the Jim Crow era statues.

No one seems to want to discuss this though, even though it's another example of prejudice and how the minority groups basically built up a (mostly fantasy) figure to battle against such prejudice.

I fee like in that context there is enough historical value in his statues just because of what he meant to those Italian-Americans. Although to be honest I think this particular monument might pre-date that movement.

People have actually addressed the argument concerning the context of Italian-American racism in this thread, ranging from dispute over the historical veracity of this reasoning to noting that the man technically wasn't even Italian. It wasn't ignored.

As for how I feel about it, let's assume we live in a world where every Columbus statue in America was made in response to such oppression in a reasonable time period (you note yourself the statue in question could've been made well before these issues were relevant.) Okay; the questions then become why Columbus- a murderer of native peoples (who I guess don't get a say in whether or not Italian representation overrides basic reverence for native lives)- and not the plenty of other historically relevant Italians of the Renaissance period or something? And why is this intent so easily lost? Do these Columbus statues even explicitly say that's what they're for, or do they pimp the myth of his "discovery?" For all the talk about statues being educational, they're doing a really fucking shit job at it.

Ultimately though, why not just give Columbus Day to Italian Americans nationally? It would cover the same purpose without being a middle finger to other ethnic groups.

 

[Mik2121]

So now it's ok to go and vandalize historical monuments like these?

Anyone who condones this doesn't understand what historical value is. Destroying these statues is NOT the way to do things. If everybody until now always did this shit, we would be missing so much history it wouldn't be even funny.


And please understand that I don't condone whatever you might think I do condone by being against destroying historical monuments. That's not the point I'm trying to make here (I don't want to get into whether that stuff is good or not). All I care about is destroying actual public property like this. It's vandalizing and it's illegal for a reason.

 

[Media]

The thing people don't seem to getting:

Comparing this to the Collusem is out of line because:

The Collusem is literally ancient
It's history is common knowledge

While as:

The Columbus Statue is only 200 years old (I agree that it should have been moved to a meuseum but I aint too fussed it wasn't)
A select handfew of people know the truth about Columbus's history, which manipulated to better was Italian/American relationships

So people are basically worshipping a dude who led to the genocide of my people, was generally useless, and personally murdered a whole bunch of folks for no reason.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

He was already considered an inhumane monster while he lived.

Again, so was Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Shaka Zulu, and dozens and dozens of historical figures still celebrated to this day. History is complicated, you absolutely cannot boil it down to a black and white situation. A strong argument could be made that without Colombus modern Latin and Northern America don't exist in their current form. Him killing a lot of people doesn't change that.

 

[Media]

Again, so was Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Shaka Zulu, and dozens and dozens of historical figures still celebrated to this day. History is complicated, you absolutely cannot boil it down to a black and white situation. A strong argument could be made that without Colombus modern Latin and Northern America don't exist in their current form. Him killing a lot of people doesn't change that.

The majority of people know who those people were and don't laud them as heroes, is the difference

 

[MadJackChurchill]

The thing people don't seem to getting:

Comparing this to the Collusem is out of line because:

The Collusem is literally ancient
It's history is common knowledge

While as:

The Columbus Statue is only 200 years old (I agree that it should have been moved to a meuseum but I aint too fussed it wasn't)
A select handfew of people know the truth about Columbus's history, which manipulated to better Italian/American relationships

So people are basically worshipping a dude who led to the genocide of my people, was generally useless, and personally murdered a whole bunch of folks for no reason.

Yup. Nobody has any recordable lineage to victims of the Colosseum, but there are still families that can record what happened to their lives after Columbus landed.

Again, so was Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Shaka Zulu, and dozens and dozens of historical figures still celebrated to this day. History is complicated, you absolutely cannot boil it down to a black and white situation. A strong argument could be made that without Colombus modern Latin and Northern America don't exist in their current form. Him killing a lot of people doesn't change that.

Apart from super weird leftists, who is singing the praises of Stalin? Who thinks Caesar was an alright guy?

 

[Nepenthe]

People nationally celebrate Genghis Khan and Stalin?.....

 

[PopeReal]

America gets mad about statues and kneeling during the anthem.

Too bad people don't get as worked up about people getting killed and rights being suppressed.

 

[Nepenthe]

America gets mad about statues and kneeling during the anthem.

Too bad people don't get as worked up about people getting killed and rights being suppressed.

Symbolic gestures, historical myth and nostalgia, and other intellectually masturbatory fluff matters more than actual lives.

This is why yuppie liberals constantly get accused of being elitist and unemotional, and furthermore that's also why it makes sense to get people's attention by actively destroying these things.

 

[deathkiller]

People nationally celebrate Genghis Khan and Stalin?.....

Genghis Khan is nationally celebrated in Mongolia.

 

[Mik2121]

Symbolic gestures, historical myth and nostalgia, and other intellectually masturbatory fluff matters more than actual lives.

This is why yuppie liberals constantly get accused of being elitist and unemotional, and furthermore that's also why it makes sense to get people's attention by actively destroying these things.

A statue is not doing anything to actual lives and if you think a Columbus statue is doing that, you have got to show me the receipts. You are, however, destroying historical heritage and something that is of actual value to the country you live in (touristic at the very least).

Actively destroying history like this pretty much makes you sound like an ignorant who thinks that just by destroying a statue you are destroying the events that happened as well. That kind of mentality is what I'd expect from a Trump supporter, really... :/

 

[sibarraz]

People nationally celebrate Genghis Khan and Stalin?.....

I still see some russians celebrating stalin for having a powerful URSS, and I guess that people in mongolia still respect the guy who made them famous and feared

 

[Chuckie]

In Holland we put a plaquette with a text on it on the statue if it is some shady fuck from the past.

 

[Protein]

America gets mad about statues and kneeling during the anthem.

Too bad people don't get as worked up about people getting killed and rights being suppressed.

Seriously. It's ridiculous.

 

[Nepenthe]

Genghis Khan is nationally celebrated in Mongolia.

Uhm.

A statue is not doing anything to actual lives and if you think a Columbus statue is doing that, you have got to show me the receipts. You are, however, destroying historical heritage and something that is of actual value to the country you live in (touristic at the very least).

Actively destroying history like this pretty much makes you sound like an ignorant who thinks that just by destroying a statue you are destroying the events that happened as well. That kind of mentality is what I'd expect from a Trump supporter, really... :/

Symbols of oppression being openly celebrated and revered aid and abet white supremacist environments of oppression that ultimately allow the crazy-ass white men among us to think they're obligated to run over anti-racists with their cars. If you think casually allowing this crap to fester is completely harmless to minorities like me, well, you're honestly no more helpful than the fuckers who chanted "Jews will not replace us" those two weekends ago. So thank you for your societal contribution.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

People have actually addressed the argument concerning the context of Italian-American racism in this thread, ranging from dispute over the historical veracity of this reasoning to noting that the man technically wasn't even Italian. It wasn't ignored.

As for how I feel about it, let's assume we live in a world where every Columbus statue in America was made in response to such oppression in a reasonable time period (you note yourself the statue in question could've been made well before these issues were relevant.) Okay; the questions then become why Columbus- a murderer of native peoples (who I guess don't get a say in whether or not Italian representation overrides basic reverence for native lives)- and not the plenty of other historically relevant Italians of the Renaissance period or something? And why is this intent so easily lost? Do these Columbus statues even explicitly say that's what they're for, or do they pimp the myth of his "discovery?" For all the talk about statues being educational, they're doing a really fucking shit job at it.

Ultimately though, why not just give Columbus Day to Italian Americans nationally? It would cover the same purpose without being a middle finger to other ethnic groups.

I had no idea the veracity of these claims was ever in question. The teacher I mentioned extended her curriculum with pamphlets full of essays from a local university. I did a quick search and found a detailed NPR article (which I linked earlier) which seemed well researched.

In regards to why it's not an Italian from the renaissance, that is obvious. The goal was to forge some sort of shared heritage between that current age of 'Americans' and Italian immigrants. That is why a figure who had a connection to America (and yes I know he only really discovered the 'Americas' and never set foot on NA) was necessary. I'm not saying there couldn't be a better choice, but it is hard to admit that the sugar-coated version of his story is a good one as far as story telling is concerned!

In regards to the comments about him not actually being Italian, I consider them petty, silly arguments with no real value. Most evidence at the time these were buoy pointed to him being born in what is modern day Italy. And really what does it matter anyway to the current topic?

And yes, I am fine with changing it to be s different holiday for indigenous people. My entire argument is hah at the end of the day there is some historical value to the monuments in this case, and they should be preserved.

 

[xealo]

Again, so was Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Shaka Zulu, and dozens and dozens of historical figures still celebrated to this day. History is complicated, you absolutely cannot boil it down to a black and white situation. A strong argument could be made that without Colombus modern Latin and Northern America don't exist in their current form. Him killing a lot of people doesn't change that.

There's a difference between teaching about him and his historical role, and holding him up as a hero worth celebrating even in modern times.

The US has a national holiday dedicated to Columbus even now.

 

[TTOOLL]

The issue is not only historical importance, that can be debatable and sometimes it will be difficult to reach an agreement, not on this case imo.

The most important issue here is letting people decide this kind of thing, that's the government's job. If you wanna have the statue removed use legal procedures in order to do so, otherwise why having a government and electing people then? What's the point?

And another thing, people are cheering this until the same principle is used against them, when that happens...chaos.

 

[chromatic9]

Most Italian-Americans obviously don't get a flying fuck nowadays because for the most part they were successfully integrated into society, but this is about history and not just an issue of modern day morality, such as with the Confederate monuments put up long past the war to intimidate a people.

Now, I feel like l, putting aside some of the truth behind what he did which I understand is difficult and even impossible for most, this is an interesting part of history and still has lessons to teach.

To native americans it's the white European invaders. They won't care too much about the recognizing of which European country the man came from who did the genocide.

It's not just a monument, the society has revelled in Columbus and is carried as a symbol good old honest discovery right up to Nasa.

 

[wumster3000]

Not a Columbus fan, so I really don't care if it's vandalized. However, it's not the right way to do things. I don't know what could possibly BE the right way, given our current political climate.

 

[Mik2121]

Uhm.



Symbols of oppression being openly celebrated and revered aid and abet white supremacist environments of oppression that ultimately allow the crazy-ass white men among us to think they're obligated to run over anti-racists with their cars. If you think casually allowing this crap to fester is completely harmless to minorities like me, well, you're honestly no more helpful than the fuckers who chanted "Jews will not replace us" those two weekends ago. So thank you for your societal contribution.

Show me how the Columbus statue was doing the bold.

We got same statues in many cities in Spain as well, and people are not as crazy. You have a problem and are trying to fix it in the wrong way. You are trying to destroy a statue and expect people to forget this. If you think all the racists you see around are like this because of the statues, you are not really understanding the problem.

Hell, I would say most of those young racists you see around probably barely understand what Columbus did or even care, really.



And again, just in case, want to make sure that people understand I don't support whatever ideology you may want to assume I do. All I care about is historical heritage like this. If you don't like, protest to your town and have it sent to a museum where a proper description can be written next to it about what it is. Don't just vandalize it.

 

[Violet_0]

People nationally celebrate Genghis Khan and Stalin?.....

Mongolia has a national holiday dedicated to Genghis Khan since 2012

the Stalin cult is gaining prominence again in Russia thanks to people glorifying the Soviet era

the bottom line is that people really don't care if the person they celebrate was a monster, as long as that someone gives them a sense of national pride

 

[televator]

Are people really cheering vandalism of a 200 years old statue in the name of "he was a cruel man"?

Not a good enough reason for you? Statues can be reconstructed/rebuilt/replaced. Age means little. However the people that these statues represent took lives. Lives that can never be replaced. Lives that should never be glossed over and forgotten in place of nice statues.

The piece could've been removed and put in a museum, simple as that. But destroying it? What the fuck are you all high on.

From what I've been hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, not many museums would want these statues that have been in the spotlight. Maybe this particular statue could be a different case, but personally, if the choice is to have this statue up one more day or in a pile of rubble, my preference is rubble. Fine, let museums take them... if they will have them.

Are you planning on destroying every statue/monument that involved violent personalities/slavery/violation of human rights? Cause if that's your plan, you're going to have to destroy pretty much anything you lay your eyes upon. Obliterating history with these dumb attention-seeking deeds seems like a great idea!

This is a straw man. Ain't nobody planning anything.

Speaking of which, I know some other people who decided pieces of history they didn't agree with deserved to be destroyed. Can you guess who?

Just say it. You wanna say "terrorists." That word trully has lost all meaning.

History is history.

Well obviously. Whether you get it from a book, a statue, a picture, or from the mouth of a historian, history is history -- to repeat your tautology. But the statues are not the best thing to go on when they aggrandize tyrants.

You don't demolish the coliseum exactly as you don't break the most useless and lowly urn in Pompei.
Destroying a centuries old statue is a CRIME, whatever may be your opinions on the historical figure.

The coliseum isn't a tradition of white washing in the society I find myself in. Nor does it uphold or perpetuate any system of oppression over me. Those are the crimes.

 

[Media]

A statue is not doing anything to actual lives and if you think a Columbus statue is doing that, you have got to show me the receipts. You are, however, destroying historical heritage and something that is of actual value to the country you live in (touristic at the very least).

Actively destroying history like this pretty much makes you sound like an ignorant who thinks that just by destroying a statue you are destroying the events that happened as well. That kind of mentality is what I'd expect from a Trump supporter, really... :/

I have receipts. This very thread had educated people on the true history of Columbus. People are taking about it a d asking why, and discovering that everything head school taught them about this 'hero' is a god damn lie.

 

[manakel]

America gets mad about statues and kneeling during the anthem.

Too bad people don't get as worked up about people getting killed and rights being suppressed.

Your black and white view is problematic. I can be upset that a monument was destroyed, while still believing people have the right to kneel during the anthem. I can think it's ridiculous that people condone vandalism and crimes because it supports their ideals, while still being angry and frustrated about people getting killed and rights being taken away.

I'm not quite sure why you think it's one or the other. Thinking like that is what continues to perpetuate the us vs. them mentality.

 

[Mik2121]

I have receipts. This very thread had educated people on the true history of Columbus. People are taking about it a d asking why, and discovering that everything head school taught them about this 'hero' is a god damn lie.

What are you talking about? People are learning that in this thread thanks to these news perhaps, but absolutely not thanks to the statue. But if that's what you wanna go for, then I'd argue it would be better to keep the statue since people can learn the true history of Columbus. Straight from your words.

And I was not even talking about that, but about how this statue was apparently doing bad to some people. That's what I asked for. Let's not be obtuse about this, please.

 

[cwmartin]

What are you talking about? People are learning that in this thread thanks to these news perhaps, but absolutely not thanks to the statue. But if that's what you wanna go for, then I'd argue it would be better to keep the statue since people can learn the true history of Columbus. Straight from your words.

And I was not even talking about that, but about how this statue was apparently doing bad to some people. That's what I asked for. Let's not be obtuse about this, please.

"Don't be obtuse"

"The statue never did anything to you"


okay....

 

[Media]

What are you talking about? People are learning that in this thread thanks to these news perhaps, but absolutely not thanks to the statue.

And I was not even talking about that, but about how this statue was apparently doing bad to some people. That's what I asked for. Let's not be obtuse about this, please.

Sorry I guess I misunderstood your post? I thought you were asking how people were being educated because of the statues vadalism.

And as a Navajo, yeah the statues and celebrations surrounding him represents so real painful shit for us.

Again, I don't want to Godwin's here but it's like Isreal celebrating a statue of Hitler because history. Sure he killed 6 million Jews and countless others, but the would the world even be what it is today I'd he hadn't?

That last line was a sarcastic reponse to another poster.

 

[Iorv3th]

Symbols of oppression being openly celebrated and revered aid and abet white supremacist environments of oppression that ultimately allow the crazy-ass white men among us to think they're obligated to run over anti-racists with their cars. If you think casually allowing this crap to fester is completely harmless to minorities like me, well, you're honestly no more helpful than the fuckers who chanted "Jews will not replace us" those two weekends ago. So thank you for your societal contribution.

What are you talking about now? Nobody was throwing a party and worshiping the columbus statue. Nobody saw that statue and said "it's ok if i'm racist".

These statues empower nobody.

Racists exist because they are raised that way or someone influences them to those beliefs. And it's not a statue doing the teaching/influencing.

Tearing that stuff down does nothing to change anyone's mind.

 

[sibarraz]

At this point you can't do anything to stop the us vs them mentality, radicalized points of view has led us to an era where there is actual people defending nazism in the USA.

People had the chance to spread their beliefs easily and had more incentives to take initiatives that sometime ago wouldn't have been easy to do. for better or worse.

If you want to use a videogame analogy, the metagame of the world has changed drastically this last decade

 

[Mik2121]

Sorry I guess I misunderstood your post? I thought you were asking how people were being educated because of the statues vadalism.

And as a Navajo, yeah the statues and celebrations surrounding him represents so real painful shit for us.

Again, I don't want to Godwin's here but it's like Isreal celebrating a statue of Hitler because history. Sure he killed 6 million Jews and countless others, but the would the world even be what it is today I'd he hadn't?

That last line was a sarcastic reponse to another poster.

I can understand if the statue represents something painful for a certain group of people. If that's the case, I think the civil way to do things is to ask the city to place it somewhere where it can be used to teach what it really represented, or what it means to certain people. Imagine how good it would be if the city acted accordingly? Other cities would most likely follow suit.

I just don't think destroying it is the way to go about this. That's all I was talking about, sorry. Internet is what's bringing up a lot of the new wave of hate, not 200+ year old statues.

 

[Media]

What are you talking about now? Nobody was throwing a party and worshiping the columbus statue. Nobody saw that statue and said "it's ok if i'm racist".

These statues empower nobody.

Racists exist because they are raised that way or someone influences them to those beliefs. And it's not a statue doing the teaching/influencing.

Tearing that stuff down does nothing to change anyone's mind.

Nobody celebrates Columbus? We have a godamed national holiday devoted to worshipping him, and he is the first people little kids are taught to see as a hero.

 

[Media]

I can understand if the statue represents something painful for a certain group of people. If that's the case, I think the civil way to do things is to ask the city to place it somewhere where it can be used to teach what it really represented, or what it means to certain people. Imagine how good it would be if the city acted accordingly? Other cities would most likely follow suit.

I just don't think destroying it is the way to go about this. That's all I was talking about, sorry. Internet is what's bringing up a lot of the new wave of hate, not 200+ year old statues.

Our population is like .1% of the is population, cause you know... genocide. We literally don't have the power or voice to make any changes
Look at what happened in North Dakota. Every nation showed up and we we're still fucked.

 

[Nepenthe]

Show me how the Columbus statue was doing the bold.

We got same statues in many cities in Spain as well, and people are not as crazy. You have a problem and are trying to fix it in the wrong way. You are trying to destroy a statue and expect people to forget this. If you think all the racists you see around are like this because of the statues, you are not really understanding the problem.

Hell, I would say most of those young racists you see around probably barely understand what Columbus did or even care, really.



And again, just in case, want to make sure that people understand I don't support whatever ideology you may want to assume I do. All I care about is historical heritage like this. If you don't like, protest to your town and have it sent to a museum where a proper description can be written next to it about what it is. Don't just vandalize it.

You're right. We do have a problem. The problem is that we have a white supremacist environment in America. A symptom of this is the reverence for historical figures through building masturbatory monuments to them, people who were instrumental in oppressing and murdering peoples still living with those ramifications today, and the insistence by people that "history" and "heritage" take precedence to the context that minorities live in regarding these statues, a context that says "we don't matter." Another symptom is the strawman that anyone who doesn't give a damn about such statues is arguing that their destruction by rebels is definitely the solution to the larger structural problem, when no one ever said that; indeed, it's a typical attribution given by people comfortable with the status quo to those who have enough of a problem with the status quo to take matters into their own hands in order to discredit them, and it's probably as tired as the lie that Cuntface Columbus discovered America in 1492.

Also, you don't get to wiggle out of not being compared to white supremacists for sticking up for the preservation of these statues when you compared me to a Trump supporter. I am happy to get down in the mud on this.

What are you talking about now? Nobody was throwing a party and worshiping the columbus statue. Nobody saw that statue and said "it's ok if i'm racist".

These statues empower nobody.

Racists exist because they are raised that way or someone influences them to those beliefs. And it's not a statue doing the teaching/influencing.

Tearing that stuff down does nothing to change anyone's mind.

Leaving them up doesn't change anyone's mind either, which isn't a point in their favor regarding having value. If they're that arbitrary, then why get so pressed when they're destroyed?

 

[sibarraz]

I can understand if the statue represents something painful for a certain group of people. If that's the case, I think the civil way to do things is to ask the city to place it somewhere where it can be used to teach what it really represented, or what it means to certain people. Imagine how good it would be if the city acted accordingly? Other cities would most likely follow suit.

I just don't think destroying it is the way to go about this. That's all I was talking about, sorry. Internet is what's bringing up a lot of the new wave of hate, not 200+ year old statues.

Problem is that statues are thought to generate inspiration, seeing how someone was important enough to deserve that someone was important enough to take the hardship of creating an imposing figure. Statues are made to impose respect.

In that sense, is better to teach people in clases and books. Not with statues.

That being said, is still sad to see an statue dissapearing, since I actually like seeing history memorabilia

 

[Mik2121]

Our population is like .1% of the is population, cause you know... genocide. We literally don't have the power or voice to make any changes
Look at what happened in North Dakota. Every nation showed up and we we're still fucked.

You are .1% of the population, but I want to believe a lot of people would side with you if you brought this up. It would at the very least be on the news (since anything like this is on the news these days).

 

[BudokaiMR2]

To native americans it's the white European invaders. They won't care too much about the recognizing of which European country the man came from who did the genocide.

It's not just a monument, the society has revelled in Columbus and is carried as a symbol good old honest discovery right up to Nasa.

Pretty much every single structure standing in the continental United States outside of some burial mounds and I believe a few Navajo settlements is an affront to Native Americans and African-American slaves. And I'm not saying this in some sarcastic tone. It's the truth. There is just no end to it.

I understand what your point is and I do agree that there should be more monuments to indigenous peoples and I wish the country was doing more to preserve what is left. And that Columbus is day itself should be changed.

Slightly veering off topic here, George Washington was called the 'Town Destroyer' (Along with some worse translations I can't remember) by the Iroquois tribe because he burned down so many nations that they fled to Canada to their British 'allies'. It opened up several states for further colonization (including the State I'm from) and is part of his legend and one of the many many reasons why he has been idolized for centuries. Of course I don't think it is taught in public textbooks besides a short single sentence with a benign military operation name.

Would you be fine with a Native protestor defacing his depiction on Mt. Rushmore? To them he was more personally guilty of crimes against a tribe like the Iroquois, compared to Columbus who never set foot anywhere near their lands.

 

[cwmartin]

Why does even your post of support read like snide criticism?

 

[Siegcram]

You are .1% of the population, but I want to believe a lot of people would side with you if you brought this up. It would at the very least be on the news (since anything like this is on the news these days).

We are on an, compared to the mainstream political discourse, unfathomably liberal forum and still about 50% are handwringing over damage to property in the face of actual minorities telling them what this statue and similar monuments represent to them.

I have no idea what makes you think that this cause would find widespread support.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Nobody celebrates Columbus? We have a godamed national holiday devoted to worshipping him, and he is the first people little kids are taught to see as a hero.

The reality is that almost nobody actually gives a fuck about Colombus. There is no grade school kid who sees Colombus as his hero, and 99.9% of people who "Celebrate" Colombus Day are just happy to have a day off work and couldn't give less of a shit about why they got off.

Nobody uses Colombus Day as a day to brush up on their American history and idolize the person the day is named after. They use it to dick around on a free day off.

 

[Mik2121]

You're right. We do have a problem. The problem is that we have a white supremacist environment in America. A symptom of this is the reverence for historical figures through building masturbatory monuments to them, people who were instrumental in oppressing and murdering peoples still living with those ramifications today, and the insistence by people that "history" and "heritage" take precedence to the context that minorities live in regarding these statues, a context that says "we don't matter." Another symptom is the strawman that anyone who doesn't give a damn about such statues is arguing that their destruction by rebels is definitely the solution to the larger structural problem, when no one ever said that; indeed, it's a typical attribution given by people comfortable with the status quo to those who have enough of a problem with the status quo to take matters into their own hands in order to discredit them, and it's probably as tired as the lie that Cuntface Columbus discovered America in 1492.

Also, you don't get to wiggle out of not being compared to white supremacists for sticking up for the preservation of these statues when you compared me to a Trump supporter. I am happy to get down in the mud on this.



Leaving them up doesn't change anyone's mind either, which isn't a point in their favor regarding having value. If they're that arbitrary, then why get so pressed when they're destroyed?

Sorry for comparing you to a Trump supporter, but I don't want to get down in the mud when it comes to this stuff on the internet. I think we both support the same general ideas, it's minor stuff like agreeing with vandalizing that we don't agree on.

Statues these days are not left there because they change or don't change anyone's mind. They are left to represent a historical event. If you don't want that in your public square, take it to a museum or somewhere where it can be shown, as I said earlier, in the proper context. Vandalizing is not the way to go, I think.

Why does even your post of support read like snide criticism?

Because this is the internet and you want to believe everybody is on one extreme or the other. Just because I don't like historical statues being vandalized, it doesn't mean I don't support the people that were oppressed by what the statue represented.

 

[cwmartin]

I disagree with your position, that doesn't mean I prefer one extreme over another.

"Everything like this seems to be in the news these days" sounds like you are complaining that discussions about these memorials/statues are in the news at all.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Why does even your post of support read like snide criticism?

No idea. I feel like I have put forth some fairly level headed arguments. Didn't you just start trying to build a straw man about Nazi book burning a few pages ago with someone else?

Maybe it's a simple case of projection?

Spoiler

Now you got me being snide. Sorry

 

[MUnited83]

Again, so was Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Shaka Zulu, and dozens and dozens of historical figures still celebrated to this day. History is complicated, you absolutely cannot boil it down to a black and white situation. A strong argument could be made that without Colombus modern Latin and Northern America don't exist in their current form. Him killing a lot of people doesn't change that.

Not a single one of those is revered as a hero or has a national day today though.

 

[Mik2121]

I disagree with your position, that doesn't mean I prefer one extreme over another.

"Everything like this seems to be in the news these days" sounds like you are complaining that discussions about these memorials/statues are in the news at all.

Not quite what I meant. Was making an observation only.

If it means anything, English is not my native tongue so perhaps there was some nuance in that phrase that I didn't mean to convey.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Not quite what I meant. Was making an observation only.

If it means anything, English is not my native tongue so perhaps there was some nuance in that phrase that I didn't mean to convey.

Don't worry, it was very obvious you weren't American.

Man, fuck this useless statue. No one gives a fuck about this genocidal piece of shut. I'm happy it got torn down.

 

[Mik2121]

Don't worry, it was very obvious you weren't American.

Man, fuck this useless statue. No one gives a fuck about this genocidal piece of shut. I'm happy it got torn down.

Well then wait until you learn I'm from Spain, the country that enabled this genocidal piece of shut



Edit: Anyway, this is becoming too much, and people will probably assume the wrong things. I don't support any of these ideologies, but that doesn't mean I support vandalizing stuff, is all I wanted to say. Sorry for making this such a long conversation.