Defend what? Putting a statue in a museum? I believe I've done that time and time again in this thread. I completely understand the anger at a statue of an oppressor being in a public setting to be idolized; I get it. But to call for them to just all be destroyed instead of being placed in museums or something of the sort makes no sense to me. You're placing all of this power in a statue that would just be used for historical/educational purposes. Destroying a statue isn't going to change history.
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Christopher Columbus monument vandalized in Baltimore
- Thread starter ponpo
- Start date
brochiller
Member
Yeah this thing was over 200 years old. People need to stop fucking destroying things and get them taken care of through the proper channels.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I don't think you can call breaking a public celebration of a mass murderer "vandalism".
It wasn't a "gotcha moment" at all, the fact that you actually value Colombus as an important part of the history of the "discovery of America" says a lot. Also it was not about representing the side of the victims, but mainly to stop associating the national identity with colonialism and slavery. You cannot make the two live together, you have to take a side. Exactly like with the Civil War.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
As an (partly) african-american, i totally support that and i think most of african american and native american would do the same (maybe not the mean, but the general goal to get rid of those symbols), so i think it's not a right/left issue. I'm not far-left and i totally condone it.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I really don't think you can equate both. I don't even think you can equate racist view with actual genocide. For instance, most philosophers and western writers until the 20th century held sexist and extremely racist views, should we ban all monuments or reference to them ? No, i don't think so. The issue is that Christopher Columbus is the symbol of slavery and colonization, and nothing else. Obama on the other side have obviously his flaws but he is the symbol of something else.
Well, maybe they should.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
No, thank you.
You condone damaging a historically important statue from the 1700's. Good to know.
Ehm... Okay, I gues you personally don't have a problem with places named after a savage and craven human being. That doesn't mean they shouldn't change it.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Nah, it's still vandalism. You can agree with it, but it is what it is.
And nothing about the monument was specifically celebrating the genocidal aspects.
As I have said many many many times, these monuments were usually dedicated through organizations fighting for the rights of Italian-Americans, not as some way to glorify the horrible deeds Columbus acted upon indigenous peoples. It's kind of frustrating that everyone seems to want to gloss over that historical relevance.
No matter how you want to spin it, he was still a very important part of history.
A very very ugly part of history, but his actions did play a part in shaping the world into what it is today.
That bolded part though... you might want to re-phrase that because it sounds like you want to deny those two aspects in regards to the history of the Americas.
I really don't think trying to brush all the ugly parts of our history under the rug is a good idea.
You say you don't want to associate the national identity with colonialism and slavery?
As unfortunate as the truth is, those are absolutely part of the national identity and the country was built on those aspects and the horrible acts carried out in their name.
I am not saying people like Columbus should be honored, but you can't really divorce the birth of of the U.S. and many other countries in the Americas from those truths.
Our national identity should not be sugar-coated by only recognizing the good aspects of our history. I hope that through these discussions popping up in recent weeks, the country could come to understand that but I'm not very hopeful.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
I dunno dude. Columbus was a fucking monster.
BudokaiMR2
Member
As were Ghengis Khan, George Washington, Nero and most other Roman Emperors, probably some of the people whose tombs were desecrated by ISIL, most Japanese rulers, etc. etc.
As I stated before, most of these monuments were dedicated by organizations led by Italian-Americans in order to battle the racism they were facing.
Were they monsters or just mis-guided? Should their work to protect their fellows be destroyed by an edgelord with a sledghammer?
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...us-sailed-into-u-s-history-thanks-to-italians
Glass Shark
Banned
the fact that it's old doesn't mean it inherently has value
I don't know enough about this particular monument (other than that Columbus is well documented as a fucking monster) to really have a strong opinion on it, just want to point this out
This is an argument I don't understand at all. How the fuck is knocking down a statue rewriting history, especially in the case of Columbus, who 90% of America's view as a fucking hero, and get taught that in school, when he was the exact opposite? I just don't understand. Destroying a statue might actually educate people in this instance since they might look into the reasons why and actually learn what a monster he was.
gutter_trash
Banned
history was already rewritten, you guys learned about Columbus wrong in the first place
How dare y'all rewrite history! Columbus was a heroic explorer. He was fair and well meaning in all things. The confederacy was also about Southern state's rights and the evil Northern aggressor. There were also no slaves ever in the US. Just undocumented immigrants looking for a better life of indentured servitude under their virtuous white employers.
/s
Escape Goat
Member
Home Alone is an American treasure. Fuck these vandals!
nephilimdj
Member
Basically destory every statue before 1946, because thats when USA forced philippines into sovienty for bases and some control over its exports. Most likely the last evil colonization move.
Sadly means a lot of early WWII statues of soldiers who fought for colonization control of Philippines have to be removed too.
Oh no I forgot, USA forced people off islands for Nuke testing in 70s, many of which still died of tumors. Gotta rethink this.
Sadly means a lot of early WWII statues of soldiers who fought for colonization control of Philippines have to be removed too.
Oh no I forgot, USA forced people off islands for Nuke testing in 70s, many of which still died of tumors. Gotta rethink this.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
Cancel the holiday and remove all the monuments and rewrite the history books.
Legally, please.
Legally, please.
Wrestlemania
Banned
We need to preserve these things because they are old is a good encapsulation on the conservative mindset, I guess.
"we can smash these old things because I say so" is both incredibly arrogant and something you'd expect from a society with anti-intellectual values
Old things should be preserved because they're part of our history, good or bad. Should the Colosseum be demolished since it hosted some pretty fucked up things? I'm sure as you to back most of the people with sculptures or monuments are pretty horrible people, doesn't mean we should just go around smashing these works of art to make youtube videos.
I don't really care if people destory stuff in a fit of social outrage. Like, if some Native Americans came by to do this, thats one thing. But I... don't really think a lot of Americans are walking around today truly outraged at Columbus, or are blaming Columbus for the problems in the country. This feels more like people just trying to be scientific about their hate. "If I hate Nazi's, I guess it would be unfair to not hate Christopher Columbus just as much. Gotta be fair."
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
"Because I say so" != "Because it is historically and artistically worthless and sends the wrong message"
who's to judge which sculpture or monument has merit and which doesn't? They don't have to be destroyed in an act of vigilant vandalism. I can however symphatize with the activists (but not in this particular case) because the city councils might often refuse to even have a honest debate about whether they should be removed from public places
Business
Member
She might as well burn the USA flag too.
... it's called empathy. When people can relate to other people's pain or grievances we call that empathy. "Scientific" says the guy sounding like an unfeeling robot. lol
Please tell me this is sarcasm.
TBiddy
Member
I'd prefer not to leave that judgement to people that are actually willing to destroy 200 year old stuff. If we're going down that slope, you're more or less accepting that the far-right people are destroying old statues as well, because they don't believe the statue is worth anything.
Chuckie
Member
I wouldn't blame her if she did tbh,
If she did, what of it? There's millions of flags everywhere. You can buy tons of em at wall mart.
My fucking god. The Collosseum. The Great Pyramid of Giza. Next we're going to see people liken the vadalization of this Christopher Columbus statue in Baltimore, Maryland to the burning of the Library of Alexandria.
NegroNinja
Member
lol I really don't get why people even give a fuck. Most black people don't give a fuck about any of theses statues regardless. Whether it's up or down minorities still getting fucked over in this country. Tear em all down I say just to see people get their panties in a bunch.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Like it or not, there is actually a right or wrong value in which monuments are more worthy of destruction wrt the right vs. the left. The right does not seem to really take umbrage with historical figures of ill repute. It's more stuff like, "Harriet Tubman on the $10 bill? Sacrilege!"
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Excellent. Wish we had such courage to take down statues of historical monsters in England. Assign them to a foot note.
With that kind of attitude, I no longer wonder why Trump won. His supporters want to see the world burn, extreme left-wing people want to do the same. Angry people left and right and no one thinking ahead of next day.
It's Clockwork Orange on both sides.
NegroNinja
Member
Lol you can't be serious.
Were slaves forced to fight for entertainment in the stacks at the Library of Alexandria?
Vampirolol
Member
I will always condemn this kind of beahvior, and I think it's very sad to see people celebrating it. This is isn't different from ISIS destroying their cultural heritage if we talk about pure mentality. Monuments, like art, should always be preserved.
The truth is: history has always been fucked up because humans are pretty fucked up. Some things need contextualization and some other things need to be criticized; we can have strong opinions on how someone from centuries ago treated people, but destroying monuments... do you think it helps? History needs to stay there. To remind people what we did, even if the message changes during the ages as we improve our knowledge.
Columbus was a piece of shit, it's easy to understand that today, so next time instead of destroying an old monument just spread some knowledge to misinformed people.
The truth is: history has always been fucked up because humans are pretty fucked up. Some things need contextualization and some other things need to be criticized; we can have strong opinions on how someone from centuries ago treated people, but destroying monuments... do you think it helps? History needs to stay there. To remind people what we did, even if the message changes during the ages as we improve our knowledge.
Columbus was a piece of shit, it's easy to understand that today, so next time instead of destroying an old monument just spread some knowledge to misinformed people.
One of the best both sides post.
That bolded sentence might have been taken from reddit or 4chan or wherever right-wingers lurk online. I understand that sentiment, but you have to understand that this kind of thought or action sabotages social movements harder than any Trump supporter would be able to do.
If we kill justice from within, they don't even need to raise a finger.
A sledgehammer will never replace common ground and constructive discussion in the community. This kind of action will drive people apart, because you basically confirm all the fears which have been planted inside the minds of common Americans by Trump and his media cronies from Fox News and Breitbart.
Let's see when a Neo-Nazi takes matters into his own hands again, citing this incident and going after MLK or whoever he sees as a monster.
Let me point out that unless your parents/forebears were immigrants from Africa, you're a full 100% African American as all descendants of slaves qualify as being "partly" African.
chromatic9
Member
Wonder if Nasa will stop revelling in Columbus
NegroNinja
Member
No you're flat out wrong. Destroying a statue isn't the same as running over people in a protest. Destroying a statue doesn't override decades of slavery and it damn sure doesn't do shit to stop institutional racism.
It's also not my fault that you're average American is an idiot brainwashed to believe the propaganda that this country was built on. This country is divided and will always be divided whether or not a fucking statue is vandalized or not.
Love the MLK line there too buddy. They can tear his statues down too for all I care. Even with them up am I not still a target?
Gen.Grievous
Member
People should grow the fuck up. Yes human beings were treated like shit centuries ago. Today we expect better. It's not a statues job to educate people, that is what school is for. The good and the bad should be taught.
If you really are angry put your energy and passion towards improving quality of life for people still being treated like shit today. Modern day slavery is still a thing in plenty of countries.
If you really are angry put your energy and passion towards improving quality of life for people still being treated like shit today. Modern day slavery is still a thing in plenty of countries.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Educated, yes. Idolised in statue form? No. Does Hitler deserve a statue because he existed? What line of argument is this?
Necro900
Member
Are people really cheering vandalism of a 200 years old statue in the name of "he was a cruel man"? The piece could've been removed and put in a museum, simple as that. But destroying it? What the fuck are you all high on.
Are you planning on destroying every statue/monument that involved violent personalities/slavery/violation of human rights? Cause if that's your plan, you're going to have to destroy pretty much anything you lay your eyes upon. Obliterating history with these dumb attention-seeking deeds seems like a great idea!
Speaking of which, I know some other people who decided pieces of history they didn't agree with deserved to be destroyed. Can you guess who?
History is history. You don't demolish the coliseum exactly as you don't break the most useless and lowly urn in Pompei.
Destroying a centuries old statue is a CRIME, whatever may be your opinions on the historical figure.
Are you planning on destroying every statue/monument that involved violent personalities/slavery/violation of human rights? Cause if that's your plan, you're going to have to destroy pretty much anything you lay your eyes upon. Obliterating history with these dumb attention-seeking deeds seems like a great idea!
Speaking of which, I know some other people who decided pieces of history they didn't agree with deserved to be destroyed. Can you guess who?
History is history. You don't demolish the coliseum exactly as you don't break the most useless and lowly urn in Pompei.
Destroying a centuries old statue is a CRIME, whatever may be your opinions on the historical figure.
TBiddy
Member
Be that as it may, I still think it's a terrible idea to let a mob decide what's right or wrong (edit: in this case). Destroying old statues and monuments, just because you feel like it's wrong to have it there is downright stupid and it should be condemned by anyone in their right mind.
If the left starts accepting mob rule in this matter, it would be very hypocritical if they denounoce the far-right for doing the same, wouldn't you say?
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