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[Poetic.Injustice]

lets not forget he was asking the government to make deals with the terrorists right before they went and killed 150 school students. he's an asshole.

Asking to negotiate with the Taliban? Which is pretty much what the American and Afghan governments are trying to do now? Nice generalizing there buddy.

More than 30 people have been arrested in this case and the provincial government has said no one will be spared.

MARDAN: The local police, on Thursday, have arrested eight more suspects involved in the lynching of Mashal Khan, a student of Abdul Wali Khan University, Mardan.

According to reports, the number of arrests, in this case, has risen to 32. Eight other suspects were also presented before an anti-terrorism court (ATC) following the expiry of their four-day remand.

On Wednesday, seven suspects reportedly confessed to the murder before the police, before they were taken to an ATC where the judges gave a go-ahead for their confessional statements to be recorded.

Earlier, on Tuesday, police arrested five suspects in the Mardan lynching case, which increased the number of detained suspects to 24.

Most of the individuals, who have been arrested in the murder case, including six employees of the university, were identified through closed-circuit television (CCTV) cameras," police said.

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/04/20/police-arrest-eight-more-in-mashal-khan-murder-case/

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Here's my problem with Imran Khan's statement: he only objects to the killing based on the fact that the student didn't actually commit blasphemy. What if he had committed blasphemy? Would it have been okay to kill him then? (The apparent answer according to Pakistani society is "yes", by the way.)

I'm thinking he doesn't want to be attacked and killed himself like the lawyer in the other link posted. Probably phrasing it that way on purpose.

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

Imran says he’ll do his best to have university renamed after Mashal Khan.

 

[Lashley]

Total savages.

 

[MikeMyers]

India currently has it way better than Pakistan but it's getting there, inching closer day by day. It's the muslims being killed, rather than the ones doing the killing, for the crime of transporting cattle or fake allegations of consuming beef.

Pakistan was created for the Muslims of the British Raj to have their own country, but it looks like India will have more Muslims than Pakistan soon. Crazy to think about that.

Although I guess the separation of Bangladesh helped cause that.

 

[Frodo]

Incredible that people are okay with murder, but not okay to someone saying anything against a made up set of rules/deity


The disconnect is too much for me to understand.

 

[Messofanego]

inna lillahi wa inallah-e-raji'oon

It's crazy that the blasphemy law is still in effect. But Pakistan is so corrupt, it would take a lot of reform all across the board for such heinous laws to go away.

 

[CornBurrito]

Waiting for the religious brigade to tell us that religion isn't the problem and that the same stuff is happening in the western so we're in no place of judging

Horrifying story. Rip to the victim.

This same stuff did happen in the West. Lynchings are similar everywhere, only the motives for them change.

 

[LordKasual]

Did you just try and use that comparison for a group of people publicly murdering someone... Really.

This particular instance is religion. Some countries execute you for being gay, others witchcraft. The only true difference is how far the people are allowed to take their mob justice.

If you think it's so far removed, then explain to me the key difference in the thought processes that got us here.

 

[azyless]

The article cites 65 deaths since 1990. It's a sad story, but far from commonplace.

Would including the hundreds who've been killed legally by the state be "commonplace" enough for you ?

 

[roknin]

Without religion, what would the justification for killing someone and dragging their corpse around be?

* a black man raises his hand *

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

Imran Khan’s bold stance on Mashal is a refreshing change.
It has the power to change things.

Otherwise, every time a tragedy like this happened in the past, our well-entrenched leaders considered it enough to mouth hollow words and focus on fire-fighting.
Take the case of the PML-N government in Punjab that has swallowed many such crimes without a burp.
It has concentrated its efforts on hushing them up and brushing them under the carpet.
In pursuit of its partisan politics, the government has actually ensured that the culprits go unpunished every time.
Not so in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

Imran Khan’s proactive position has not only mobilised the PTI-government in KP to pursue the matter with the right sense of purpose, but it has also triggered a positive chain reaction in the society.
He visited Mashal’s family in Swabi and stood with them.
He clearly articulated what was wrong with the mob-murder of their young and promising son.
His promise to punish the perpetrators was not mere words.
It has been followed by credible actions of the KP administration.

In the middle of our parliamentary circus, this sincere effort to lead the society in the true meaning of the word is commendable.
Imran Khan and his PTI might have many shortcomings, but their response to what happened in Mardan must be appreciated.
It calls for an apology from his hardline detractors who did not tire of painting him as Taliban Khan.
He has created the hope that those who falsely accused Mashal of blasphemy and riled up a mob to cover their murder will be punished.
Given our past record, that’s not a small thing.

Things are moving in a positive direction.
The PTI-government in KP is pursuing the case with diligence.
The Supreme Court has taken a suo-moto notice.
The society is up in arms.
Something good will come out of the tragic incident.An exemplary punishment to those who orchestrated Mashal’s murder is the necessary first step.
Obviously, it will deter other devious-minded individuals from using false accusations of blasphemy to further their criminal objectives and to harm their victims.

http://nation.com.pk/columns/20-Apr-2017/imran-khan-s-bold-stance

 

[SlimySnake]

http://nation.com.pk/columns/20-Apr-2017/imran-khan-s-bold-stance

No where does it say that he advocated for repealing the blasphemy law. he's focusing on whether or not he was 'falsely' accused.

So what if he did say something shitty about Mohammed or Islam or God? What if he drew Mohammed? Would it be ok for these guys to brutally murder him?

These are questions pakistanis must ask themselves and Imran who is in the power to bring about actual change is doing jack shit to make that happen.

Falsely accused. What a load of shit.

 

[Raonak]

Wow... .thats fucked up...

Pakistan needs to start separating it's religion from it's government.

 

[RRockman]

Without religion, what would the justification for killing someone and dragging their corpse around be?

 

[Sayah]

Would including the hundreds who've been killed legally by the state be "commonplace" enough for you ?

Not a single person has been executed by the Pakistani government as a result of the blasphemy law to date according to:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/10/12/facing-death-penalty-blasphemy-pakistan

 

[CornBurrito]

* a black man raises his hand *

Or looks at a white woman the wrong way*

*or if a white man thinks he looked at a white woman the wrong way

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

No where does it say that he advocated for repealing the blasphemy law. he's focusing on whether or not he was 'falsely' accused.

So what if he did say something shitty about Mohammed or Islam or God? What if he drew Mohammed? Would it be ok for these guys to brutally murder him?

These are questions pakistanis must ask themselves and Imran who is in the power to bring about actual change is doing jack shit to make that happen.

Falsely accused. What a load of shit.

Change doesn't come in a day. A polarised society doesn't suddenly become liberal and start having western democratic values overnight. It takes education and long term reforms. Having a war in your neighboring country certainly hasn't helped.

 

[EGM1966]

Literally anything they decided to replace it with.

Just look how America has nearly weaponized the words "liberal" and "conservative" to the point where being labeled with either of them no longer even takes the person in question into account.

You just assume the worst depending on what you've been taught, and suddenly you view them as everything wrong with the country.

Can we stop with this notion? Yes people can make anything a cause for murder but as the statistics show from many Western countries the less patriotism/region engenders a culture where this kind of act is acceptable the less it happens.

People don't just maintain steady rates of murder and find any justification for it, the less justification there is and the more they're raised in a culture that actively negates such act the less you see such acts.

There's no way to reduce incidence to zero but you're arguing as if there's some absolute tendency to violence as a percentage of population which simply isn't true.

And let's not use US as some barometer as the statistics well show how, due to prevalence of gun ownership and other aspects of the countries culture, it has a high incidence of gun related deaths vs other Western nations.

Pakistan still has a law that allows people to be killed for blasphemy and as historic precedence shows that (along with the other confirming aspects of the religious culture) increases the incidence of people acting on this on their own.

It's about degrees and percentages of incidence and having such outdated religious laws makes things objectively worse and removing them would improve the situation as it has in other countries that have already progressed through repealing such laws and removing them from their culture.

The point is what you teach and how you teach it and I agree with you on your points in US recently - but again the right response here isn't to see it as some inevitable situation, it's to push, push, push for reform as has been proven elsewhere to reduce the likelihood of cultural acceptance and individual psychology colliding to deadly effect.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

As a Pakistani and as a Muslim, I feel the country needs to focus on itself more than it focuses on Islam. Somehow the government and the religious leaders here think of Pakistan as leading the charges for the whole Islam. They need to get this idiotic idea out of their head and instead focus on making the country a better place for its residents.

These incidents were not common in the past but I do see an increasing frequency of them recently so something changed for the worse. I hope it gets better again but it is always painful to read and hear stories like these originating from my country. Rest assured, I don't see it in everyday life and I am from a part of Pakistan where Muslims, Hindus and Christians live in peace.

 

[Cocaloch]

Yea, that's why no one should be scared to call these criminals savages.

Well we should be scared to use the word savages because it's not a very good word.

Incredible that people are okay with murder, but not okay to someone saying anything against a made up set of rules/deity


The disconnect is too much for me to understand.

Well the disconnect is because you're applying your values to their actions. They almost certainly don't think of what they did as murder...

This same stuff did happen in the West. Lynchings are similar everywhere, only the motives for them change.

I mean this isn't really true, if it was you'd see similar rates per capita everywhere. You don't. There are clearly social and cultural elements at play here. Religion can be a powerful one, but that doesn't mean you have to essentialize specific and local interpretations of the religion to the religion itself.

 

[sazzy]

... and then the university sent out a notice saying that they are investigating the lynched student for blasphemy.

sigh.

 

[Cocaloch]

Can we stop with this notion? Yes people can make anything a cause for murder but as the statistics show from many Western countries the less patriotism/region engenders a culture where this kind of act is acceptable the less it happens.

People don't just maintain steady rates of murder and find any justification for it, the less justification there is and the more they're raised in a culture that actively negates such act the less you see such acts.

There's no way to reduce incidence to zero but you're arguing as if there's some absolute tendency to violence as a percentage of population which simply isn't true.

And let's not use US as some barometer as the statistics well show how, due to prevalence of gun ownership and other aspects of the countries culture, it has a high incidence of gun related deaths vs other Western nations.

Pakistan still has a law that allows people to be killed for blasphemy and as historic precedence shows that (along with the other confirming aspects of the religious culture) increases the incidence of people acting on this on their own.

It's about degrees and percentages of incidence and having such outdated religious laws makes things objectively worse and removing them would improve the situation as it has in other countries that have already progressed through repealing such laws and removing them from their culture.

The point is what you teach and how you teach it and I agree with you on your points in US recently - but again the right response here isn't to see it as some inevitable situation, it's to push, push, push for reform as has been proven elsewhere to reduce the likelihood of cultural acceptance and individual psychology colliding to deadly effect.

I think you're mostly on the mark here. I'd also add that the counter argument in this thread, presumably from religious people, is totally bizarre. It almost seems to be a rejection that religion actually influences how people think at all. That seems tantamount to me to declaring that they don't think religion is anything but a cover for other beliefs. An odd move for religious folks for sure...

 

[Stereogatari]

The founder of Pakistan intended Pakistan to be a Secular country.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Can we stop with this notion? Yes people can make anything a cause for murder but as the statistics show from many Western countries the less patriotism/region engenders a culture where this kind of act is acceptable the less it happens.

People don't just maintain steady rates of murder and find any justification for it, the less justification there is and the more they're raised in a culture that actively negates such act the less you see such acts.

There's no way to reduce incidence to zero but you're arguing as if there's some absolute tendency to violence as a percentage of population which simply isn't true.

And let's not use US as some barometer as the statistics well show how, due to prevalence of gun ownership and other aspects of the countries culture, it has a high incidence of gun related deaths vs other Western nations.

Pakistan still has a law that allows people to be killed for blasphemy and as historic precedence shows that (along with the other confirming aspects of the religious culture) increases the incidence of people acting on this on their own.

It's about degrees and percentages of incidence and having such outdated religious laws makes things objectively worse and removing them would improve the situation as it has in other countries that have already progressed through repealing such laws and removing them from their culture.

The point is what you teach and how you teach it and I agree with you on your points in US recently - but again the right response here isn't to see it as some inevitable situation, it's to push, push, push for reform as has been proven elsewhere to reduce the likelihood of cultural acceptance and individual psychology colliding to deadly effect.

Well said.

I think you're mostly on the mark here. I'd also add that the counter argument in this thread, presumably from religious people, is totally bizarre. It almost seems to be a rejection that religion actually influences how people think at all. That seems tantamount to me to declaring that they don't think religion is anything but a cover for other beliefs. An odd move for religious folks for sure...

It just reeks of a way to absolve themselves of responsibility for their shitty beliefs.

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

It just reeks of a way to absolve themselves of responsibility for their shitty beliefs.

How about you get off your high horse and not decide what other peoples beliefs are by yourself?

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Well, you see...



Anyone who says that doesn't know what they're talking about. Religion is not at fault, the people who misuse and appropriate religion with their disgusting agendas and desire for power that they mask in "godliness" and "righteousness" are at fault.

And this happens everywhere. All the time, in fact, to varying degrees of sick and twisted.

Religion is the tool used, it is not the reason why these so-called "religious leaders" trick people into believing that something which goes against the core tenets of many faiths is actually a good thing.

All religions are tools primarily used for manipulation and exploitation. That is why they still persist to this day. If they didn't enable a group of people to maintain power easily (the key being that their dogmas do not have to be rational and can be tailored to the fit the manipulator's needs), they would have been discarded long ago.

 

[Cocaloch]

All religions are tools primarily used for manipulation and exploitation. That is why they still persist to this day. If they didn't enable a group of people to maintain power easily (the key being that their dogmas do not have to be rational and can be tailored to the fit the manipulator's needs), they would have been discarded long ago.

No this is far too simplistic. There is a real degree of sincerity in every religion, ignoring that is ridiculous. The increasingly common assumption that there isn't is one of the hardest hurdles to overcome when teaching history. It's a bizarre form of secularization that is based on rejecting religions as modes of thinking entirely instead of simply moving away from religions. As a result, it's ultimately a harmful way of thinking about things. Essentially it doesn't take religion and religious sentiment to be real. Without that how can you really make sense of so much of what has happened over the last 2000 years?

 

[SolarPowered]

Holy shit. How could you do that to anyone?

Religious fundamentalism taken to it's very limits. It's not a good way to think on any level.

 

[see5harp]

Well we should be scared to use the word savages because it's not a very good word.

What else do you call these animals? Brainwashed would imply that they've been misled but plenty of other people taught the lie of religion don't go out and kill people so obviously there's something really special about these fucking idiots.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

How about you get off your high horse and not decide what other peoples beliefs are by yourself?

Huh? I'm not the one doing that, those saying "they're just using it as an excuse to __" are the ones implying that...

 

[Monocle]

Glad I don't live in a place where I'm more likely to be killed for made up bullshit.

Religion is a necessary evil

Nope. It causes way more bad than good.

 

[Cocaloch]

What else do you call these animals? Brainwashed would imply that they've been misled but plenty of other people taught the lie of religion don't go out and kill people so obviously there's something really special about these fucking idiots.

There are plenty of words. Evil, murderers, etc. There being something special about them doesn't mean you have to use the word savages that's a weird argument.

 

[Monocle]

There are plenty of words. Evil, murderers, etc. There being something special about them doesn't mean you have to use the word savages that's a weird argument.

I dunno, losing your fucking mind over religion seems savage enough to me.

Somebody's one chance at existence was stolen for nothing.

 

[Klocker]

Fuck you and your fucking religion, murdering asshole idiots.

 

[Cocaloch]

I dunno, losing your fucking mind over religion seems savage enough to me.

Somebody's one chance at existence was stolen for nothing.

The issue isn't calling these people savages, it's the word savages....

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Stop. Fucking. Killing people.

Like, if your culture requires you to kill people you disagree with, you're living in a fucking animalistic culture. Fight or GTFO if you can.

Nah don't insult animals that way. Animals don't kill each other for dumb shit like belief in fairy tales.

For anyone thinking religion is necessary, if you need a book to tell you how to treat people right and be a good person in general, then maybe you're not really that good a person to begin with. If you need reassurance that there's something for you after you're dead and buried, think about how selfish and cowardly that is.

 

[see5harp]

The issue isn't calling these people savages, it's the word savages....

Calling them and the people who supported their belief system savages is like the nicest thing I could call people who believe that a great being in the sky cares what a bunch of evolved animals thinks about anything. These idiots who shoot and murder and drag and strip the body as some weird form of trophy offering to their made up king. I call people who wait in line on black Friday savages. These murdering psychopaths are a shitstain on humanity who deserve eternity in the worst circle of the burning inferno forced to watch Madea movies.

 

[Cocaloch]

Calling them and the people who supported their belief system savages is like the nicest thing I could call people who believe that a great being in the sky cares what a bunch of evolved animals thinks about anything. These idiots who shoot and murder and drag and strip the body as some weird form of trophy offering to their made up king. I call people who wait in line on black Friday savages. These murdering psychopaths are a shitstain on humanity who deserve eternity in the worst circle of the burning inferno forced to watch Madea movies.

Again the issue isn't who you are calling savages, it's that the word is not a very good word. There are weird cultural value judgments about how the world works embedded in the word itself.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Again the issue isn't who you are calling savages, it's that the word is not a very good word. There are weird cultural value judgments about how the world works embedded in the word itself.

Nice fancy way of telling the poster it's racist to use the word savages.

 

[Gaminar]

This. Fuck Imran Khan.

I think you have some silly agenda over here. He's Pakistan's only hope for somewhat of a secular society, the only reason he's speaking out is because it happened in his province where it's his Party's governance. I read all your posts on this thread and basically talk like what most raised abroad Pakistanis are like; ignorant with no idea of what happens in the country with malignant self hate for your own people along with a superiority complex being from the west. I am sorry for the assumptions but that's what it sounds like.

1. To all those calling Islam as the basis of the problem, the Quran has nothing of blasphemy. It's the Hadiths that can be misinterpreted which institutions like Daesh are also using everyday to kill every Muslim as well. And there are people who will always use it out of context to get what they want.

2. Radical or Extremist people do not represent the majority of Pakistanis or Muslims. I believed NeoGaf was more of a liberal thinking forum and wanted to ask questions before harping on the idea of hate. I am Pakistani as well and have worked in basically every facet of Pakistani society fighting off poverty, hate, sectarian violence and understand the 3 way politics between the establishment, the people and politicians/beaureucrats.

3. I personally grew up half my life in Pakistan in an army family and the perceptive part of my life was fullfilled in Canada. Both places are my home. The problem is lack of education, wahabist indoctrination, poverty and a corrupt economic infrastructure in Pakistan. It's not a failing state, more a hijacked one. There are so many parallels to the US and Pakistan as similarities that the mind boggles.

4. Pakistan was a secular state until the 1970s when Zia Ul Haq staged a coup detat and overthrew the then PM and got him hung. He introduced Islamization which would then be used and funded by Saudis and America to fight off Russia in Afghanistan in the form of the Mujahideen who then turned Taliban to now terrorists to which Pakistan is also fighting it's war on terrorism.

5. The biggest problem with blasphemy law is that Pakistan has a judiciary system that is also corrupt and has failed people so they rather account for Sharia that 75%+ people reject in Pakistan and act as the judge, jury and executioner. If you go into the more metropolitan cities like Lahore and Islamabad... they are completely rejected. But as you wander off to more Tribal areas, you'd have to be complicit as there are no laws governing thise areas... and quite frankly it's more geared towards anarchy.

6. Please do not generalize Pakistanis with extremism/radicalism. You guys don't have any idea how complex the region is. There are 4 provinces with more than 150 languages, with many ethnic groups that span all the way from Mecadonia to all the way in Mongolia that have a some sort of belief system with Sunni Islam being the predominant one.

If you guys have any questions, please don't hesitate to PM.

 

[keuja]

What a shit hole of a country to let this killing happen supposedly in the name of religion... all the students and teachers that participated in this are just common murderers and criminals not holy people. Fuck them.

 

[Cocaloch]

Nice fancy way of telling the poster it's racist to use the word savages.

I mean there's more too it than that. I also think it's not a particularly sound word epistemologically, and ends up being analytically pretty useless while at the same time buttressing certain conceptions of the "civilized" world that should be critically examined.

It also doesn't seem particularly useful to me because people generally use it as a synonym as really bad.

 

[see5harp]

Again the issue isn't who you are calling savages, it's that the word is not a very good word. There are weird cultural value judgments about how the world works embedded in the word itself.

I can judge the culture of those individuals and plenty of others in this country just fine using poor word choice and four letter words and not feel at all bad about it. That's cool if you wanna turn it into some sort of mental exercise.

 

[Cocaloch]

I can judge the culture of those individuals and plenty of others in this country just fine using poor word choice and four letter words and not feel at all bad about it. That's cool if you wanna turn it into some sort of mental exercise.

Again, the issue isn't who no one is defending these people. The issue is what the use of the word, and more importantly the framework to which it is attached, does to our conception of other things.

I didn't tell anyone in this thread they shouldn't use the word, just that it wasn't a good word.

As to your last point it's also cool if you want to handwave away problems because something bad happened.

 

[Black_Sun]

Religion is a necessary evil

No, it isn't.

What's necessary about it?

 

[Gaminar]

I can judge the culture of those individuals and plenty of others in this country just fine using poor word choice and four letter words and not feel at all bad about it. That's cool if you wanna turn it into some sort of mental exercise.

Tone down your elitism and ethnocentric warped myopic thinking. You're downright offensive.

This goes for some others in this thread as well.

 

[see5harp]

Again, the issue isn't who no one is defending these people. The issue is what the use of the word, and more importantly the framework to which it is attached, does to our conception of other things.

I didn't tell anyone in this thread they shouldn't use the word, just that it wasn't a good word.

As to your last point it's also cool if you want to handwave away problems because something bad happened.

Everybody here knows how I am using the word. To denounce obvious radicals who do not represent the entire people of Pakistan. It's not vague.

 

[Madness]

Without religion, what would the justification for killing someone and dragging their corpse around be?

The worst ever was men in Afghanistan beating a woman to death and setting her corpse on fire because someone shouted she was burning the Quran, when she was just a destitute woman who was burning some paper scraps. No one even waited for evidence. That is how militant religious ideals should always be challenged. If you are willing to kill someone because your religion is insulted or you think the holy book was burned.

 

[Primethius]

I think Sunni Islam is one of the real, underlying causes. I mean, what else would it be? It's not poverty or inequality--plenty of the worst religious radicals are wealthy and well-connected. It's not solely Western imperialism--China, India, and non-Muslim Africa were all royally screwed but don't have the same level of religious oppression. It's not education--this problem has been happening in liberal universities (and on the flipside, barely happens in non-Muslim poorly-educated places around the world).

I don't think it's a stretch to think that an ideology that prescribes death for blasphemers or apostates ends up killing lots of perceived blasphemers and apostates.

Islam didn't have to be this way (and Saudi Arabian style Wahhabism is a big reason it became this way), but the problem is real and getting worse.

I think you misunderstand my point. Even if you replace Islam here with another religion, the cutural makeup of Pakistan, especially in certain govern-less areas is quite extreme in practice. The religion is often used as a convenient excuse that masks underlying cultutral issues or just disgusting practices and beliefs.

There's areas within the country that take Christianity and distort beliefs in much of the same way to serve ulterior, non-religious beliefs but that's not reflective of the religion but a deeper underlying issue.

I mean, so much of Pakistans various societies attempt to add validitiy to their practices via religion. And that in itself is a cause of a lot of inner-cultural conflict. There have been dudes who have tried to use religion to justify selling off kids to sex traffickers and the like. They prey on the uneducated, and religion is just that extra tool in the arsenal to help them to do so.

You could take it out but I don't think it would remotely come close to solving the problem.

Edit: For example, when I was a kid in Peshawar, our neighbors went out and killed another guy because he had cut them off in traffic. They threw a celebration for having killed him and invited my dad alongside most of the neighborhood. Their justification for the murder was religion but we all know that's just a mask. And a lot of that happens in Pakistan. Way too much.