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Colin Moriarty doubles down on his 400 million claim...

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
it's very common to bomb someone with fabricated details when lying.
It's far more common to bomb someone with vagueness. It's why liars want to change the topic of conversation because they know the other person is attempting to grab more detail from them.

Heck, look at Colins video. Chris and Dustin don't question him at all. They don't want to push him for more detail because they're not stupid. They just go on the attack and attempt to smear the skeptics, which is a common tactic of liars.
Yes, details COULD be checked, but the info that could refute claims isn't always available or impossible to apprehend (due to the situation not being real). I'm not making specific claims regarding this story, just pushing back against your assertion.
But you're wrong. Obviously a good liar can weave a complicated web of lies (and keep track of everything) but it's generally not in the guilties best interest to talk.

"I'll answer any question you have. I have nothing to hide."

Vs.

"I'm not saying anything until I get my lawyer."
 
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MarkMe2525

Gold Member
It's far more common to bomb someone with vagueness. It's why liars want to change the topic of conversation because they know the other person is attempting to grab more detail from them.

But you're wrong. Obviously a good liar can weave a complicated web of lies (and keep track of everything) but it's generally not in the guilties best interest to talk.

"I'll answer any question you have. I have nothing to hide."

Vs.

"I'm not saying anything until I get my lawyer."
You're conflating the behavior of "good liars" with the behavior of all liars. Yes, it would be best for a liar to not fabricate specific details, but it's incorrect to assert that they do not do this. Really no where else to go with this conversation, as like with many things in life, an "ideal" doesn't ways line up with reality. I guess we will have to agree to disagree

Edit: reworded for clarity and to be less "aggressive" while defending my position.
 
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BigBeauford

Member
If that's the case, you should be able to show me 10+ games with these "purple haired black girl bosses" leading games these days.


It's not about what Colin said at this point. It's more about what his source said. Why do we need to have evidence his source is wrong? We don't even know who his source is :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: .
Concord
Dustborn
Creatures of Ava
Fairgame$
Saints Row
Redfall
Flintlock
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
You're conflating the behavior of "good liars" with the behavior of all liars. Yes, it would be best for a liar to not fabricate specific details, but it's incorrect to assert that they do not do this.
You misunderstood my point. When I say "Liars use avoidance and vagueness" I did not mean 100% of the lying population. I speak like a human so it can be inferred I mean "generally". Obviously good liars can weave complex fabricated stories and keep their story straight.
Really no where else to go with this conversation, as like with many things in life, an "ideal" doesn't ways line up with reality. I guess we will have to agree to disagree
The "Reid Technique of Interviewing and Interrogation" and studies published in criminal psychology journals support the idea that detailed, consistent accounts are more credible than vague responses. Additionally, law enforcement training manuals typically highlight the need for specificity to assess truthfulness.

Disagree all you want.
 
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MarkMe2525

Gold Member
You misunderstood my point. When I say "Liars use avoidance and vagueness" I did not mean 100% of the lying population. I speak like a human so it can be inferred I mean "generally". Obviously good liars can weave complex fabricated stories and keep their story straight.

The "Reid Technique of Interviewing and Interrogation" and studies published in criminal psychology journals support the idea that detailed, consistent accounts are more credible than vague responses. Additionally, law enforcement training manuals typically highlight the need for specificity to assess truthfulness.

Disagree all you want.
Even by pulling back and just saying "generally" liars act in this manner, is overstating your position. You are describing the technique of "good liars or effective liars", so unless you want to assert that "generally people are good liars", the assertion is at best an exaggeration. To go further, you would then need to show that this particular person, if lying, is a "good or effective" liar.
 
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hemo memo

Gold Member
$250 million in development and $150 million for marketing is believable considering they're the highest per-head-cost development studio.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
You're conflating the behavior of "good liars" with the behavior of all liars. Yes, it would be best for a liar to not fabricate specific details, but it's incorrect to assert that they do not do this. Really no where else to go with this conversation, as like with many things in life, an "ideal" doesn't ways line up with reality. I guess we will have to agree to disagree

Edit: reworded for clarity and to be less "aggressive" while defending my position.
Adding excessive detail is pretty common with liars. They know complete lack of detail will look suspicious but can't gauge correctly the amount of detail they would be able to provide if it had really happened and so give far too much.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
$250 million in development and $150 million for marketing is believable considering they're the highest per-head-cost development studio.

$150M in marketing spend with almost zero ads out in the wild other than on YouTube very briefly?

Wild. Why not just make up something even more insane like $400 M marketing alone if you’re going to pull shit out of your ass
 

Shifty1897

Member
Looking at the game, where exactly did this 400m go? No way it was that much.

- Poached Activision executives
- Poached Bungie, Activision, Respawn, Bioware, and Raven software devs
- Bellevue Washington studio location (average salary for a developer here is 140k per ZipRecruiter)
- High Quality CGI Vignettes (Avengers: Endgame's CGI Budget was 350 million dollars, for reference, if divided evenly, that breaks down to 2 million dollars a minute)
- 8 year dev cycle during the pandemic, when tech salaries exploded
- Major outsourcing
- 1 hour long credits sequence shows the number of people who got paid to work on the game
- For comparison, Spiderman 2 cost 300 million dollars to make (per Kotaku) and reused assets from Spiderman 1.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Even by pulling back and just saying "generally" liars act in this manner, is overstating your position. You are describing the technique of "good liars or effective liars", so unless you want to assert that "generally people are good liars", the assertion is at best an exaggeration. To go further, you would then need to show that this particular person, if lying, is a "good or effective" liar.
We know this is false because investigators all over planet earth attempt to extract as much detail from suspects as possible. They do this because finding out the truth is their primary objective. Liars avoid these conversations for obvious reasons. Why waste resources if it wasn't a time tested, effective strategy?

It's also crazy that you can't see the giant red flag of Colin attacking his critics rather than supporting his statement with additional facts. This is called projection and is used to pull the attention away from the fabricated story and onto the morality of the doubters.

But Benny Hinn had his supporters too.
 
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EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
You misunderstood my point. When I say "Liars use avoidance and vagueness" I did not mean 100% of the lying population. I speak like a human so it can be inferred I mean "generally". Obviously good liars can weave complex fabricated stories and keep their story straight.

The "Reid Technique of Interviewing and Interrogation" and studies published in criminal psychology journals support the idea that detailed, consistent accounts are more credible than vague responses. Additionally, law enforcement training manuals typically highlight the need for specificity to assess truthfulness.

Disagree all you want.
When utilizing an anonymous source you don't use specifics that can be traced back to your source. It is not an indicator of truthfulness in this context.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
When utilizing an anonymous source you don't use specifics that can be traced back to your source. It is not an indicator of truthfulness in this context.
Exactly. That should be commonly known.

It's not different anyone on this forum. We dont use our real names, dont say exactly where we work, and sometimes can fudge the exact details so nobody can pinpoint exactly who you are and what you do.

Nobody giving leaked info is going to say.... "my buddy Brad Brown who works at the Honda plant in Alliston Ontario said the cost to make a Civic is $12,000"
 
I was just listening to the podcast. WTH is this calling him a liar, literally he goes through this topic on how people are reacting to this and some people without any proof already are making him a liar in bad faith, any reason on the antagonism ?
 

mitch1971

Gold Member
This is a five hour podcast, I really don't know how anyone can listen to this for all that time. I know we're just talking about Concord here, but my goodness, it's a 5 hours for a PlayStation podcast is faaaaaar too long. I hope his podcasts aren't always this long.
They are usually 4 to 5 hours long. It can take about an hour to get to talking about games sometimes. Lot of fluff at the beginning of what his co-presenters have had for lunch or how many shits they've had since the last podcast. I think they think most people are interesting in the mundane lives of the crew. They could cut some of the fat from the run time, but people are paying for it, so maybe they expect a certain amount of hours equals value. I usually skip to the game talk.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Exactly. Just the fact that people think Sony would spend 400M on an unproven studio when even Naughty Dog couldn't get that amount is insane.
Dont forget Haven studios.

Another new studio with no history except Jade Raymond heading up their new Fairgames shooter. Similar to FW/Concord, Sony bought out the entire studio based on employee experience and seeing some demo.

Sony also partnered with Deviation Games for supposedly another shooter. Another game based on shooter vets from the industry. Long dead. They canned their website, which showed nothing about games but them playing bowling, tug of war and watching 3D movies at a theatre. An inane website that had nothing to do with making games. If you ever saw it, it was more like one of those corporate event companies you hire to organize BBQ Day or an afternoon Scavenger Hunt. Now you get this. Nada.


Gaming and tech are probably the only industries in the world where there's so much loose money flowing hands, a parent company will straight up acquire a start up studio with nothing but some vets who claim they can make a good product based on their resume and maybe a promo cut of the game. It's basically an extension of the wild west dot.com era 25 years ago where any guy with a dopey internet idea would get tons of investors money or a $100 IPO stock. fast forward a year or two and half of them disappeared. There's always lots of easy money in tech. And gaming is part of tech.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
When utilizing an anonymous source you don't use specifics that can be traced back to your source. It is not an indicator of truthfulness in this context.
There's more than one kind of "specifics".

There's the kind that can expose your source and there's the kind that doesn't.

Wouldn't it be nice to know what leadership said to the team during one of Firewalks milestone parties? Or what about the size of the studio in 2020, 2021, 2022 etc...Or about a concept that was originally planned for the game but got cut sometime during development? Heck, wouldn't it be nice to know where the bulk of the money went considering the studio size, length of development, and outsourcing rate doesn't add up to...most expensive game ever made?

There are so many details that the majority of Firewalk employees know, details that can easily be corroborated, that Colin ("I used to be a journalist") Moriarty simply avoids.

If I want to share an unbelievable story, I start by saying "You're not going to believe this...", then I share the story. Then I wait for my good natured friends & family to scoff at me and say "That didn't happen! You gotta be lying!"

Then I say "No, I swear...(and give further detail until my audience begins to believe me)". When I share an unbelievable story I expect skepticism from people. It's healthy to be skeptical of the ludicrous.

Colin doesn't do this.

Colin goes on the attack / plays victim immediately. "How could you not trust me? Haven't I proven myself enough for you? You're just a Twitter troll etc..."

This is sketchy behavior.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
There's more than one kind of "specifics".

There's the kind that can expose your source and there's the kind that doesn't.

Wouldn't it be nice to know what leadership said to the team during one of Firewalks milestone parties? Or what about the size of the studio in 2020, 2021, 2022 etc...Or about a concept that was originally planned for the game but got cut sometime during development? Heck, wouldn't it be nice to know where the bulk of the money went considering the studio size, length of development, and outsourcing rate doesn't add up to...most expensive game ever made?

There are so many details that the majority of Firewalk employees know, details that can easily be corroborated, that Colin ("I used to be a journalist") Moriarty simply avoids.

If I want to share an unbelievable story, I start by saying "You're not going to believe this...", then I share the story. Then I wait for my good natured friends & family to scoff at me and say "That didn't happen! You gotta be lying!"

Then I say "No, I swear...(and give further detail until my audience begins to believe me)". When I share an unbelievable story I expect skepticism from people. It's healthy to be skeptical of the ludicrous.

Colin doesn't do this.

Colin goes on the attack / plays victim immediately. "How could you not trust me? Haven't I proven myself enough for you? You're just a Twitter troll etc..."

This is sketchy behavior.
Sounding pretty mental at this point, dude.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
Had a chance to fully go through and watch Colin's arguments. He makes a number of claims to back up his defense of the $400M figure, and doesn't blame people for doubting him, but then simultaneously states "they just haven't connected the dots like I have". And unfortunately for Colin, the dots he's connecting do not logically add up. Instead of connecting the dots, he's jumping to conclusions, and I knew that the vast majority of his defense of the $400M estimate comes from the initial claims of Series A VC funding for ProbablyMonsters at $250M in 2022. Note: ProbablyMonsters confirms on their website that their studio headcounts grew 65% in 2022.

1. Flaw #1 - Assuming $250M VC funding, closed in 2022, suddenly means that's money that has already been spent.

This is simply capturing private funding to deploy over the course of many years. It does not mean that money has been spent. It has a plan based on the number of studios and incubation projects. Indeed, we can see that from ProbablyMonster's own website they had multiple projects on their roadmap, some of which have been closed (money spent already), but others that were retained. It is a wildly inaccurate accusation that the $250M funding in 2022 was suddenly all mostly accounted for by 2023 when Sony picked up the project. This is long-term investment capital used to bring multiple ProbablyMonsters projects into fruition over the course of 5-10+ years.

Colin also has a habit of making wild claims about compensation. I've heard him make claims in the past about how much some employees at bungie are making at a lead level, and it is wildly out of touch (claiming they stand to make millions upon millions in the acquisition which is just false). The truth is that almost all of the acquisition cost goes to the very tippy top of the organization that has sizable shares. The vast majority do not. Those more involved in the actual game operations do not. In today's video, he claimed that FireWalk had to hire expensive employees, and while this is true, in context of the overall budget you are only talking about a handful of people. And most of their compensation is in the form of stock, as it's a new company and presumably the reason they are starting a new company is to enjoy in that growth moreso than the cash based compensation.

2. Flaw #2 - Assuming most of that $250M VC funding (that wasn't already spent) was largely allocated to Concord.

Pretty self explanatory based on the discussion above. Why would Concord consume the vast majority of their intended VC funding in just the span of a single year, when they were just going to flip FireWalk to Sony? While it was a difficult year and they may have sold FireWalk to Sony as a result of being concerned about long-term cash positions, it makes no sense to sell what you presume to be your golden goose projects and only have a skeleton crew working them. No, it seems to me based upon FireWalk's headcount vs ProbabyMonsters headcount that while the FireWalk divestiture was significant, it was not representative of the majority of the $250M in funding they were accounting for in their FUTURE roadmap.

3. Flaw #3 - Arguing that because Spiderman 2 cost over $300M, that "videogame development is just that expensive these days".

True, game development costs have ballooned over the years. But Spider-Man's costs are out there in public for all to see, and they are quite detailed.

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Insomniac is located in probably the most expensive part of the country, even higher than Bellevue Washington according to online CoL estimates. Spider-Man 2 had a headcount of over 300 people on average working on the project on a full-time basis for around 3 years. This ended up costing $245M in direct studio related costs, and $54M in "Outsourcing Costs". Outsourcing, which was significant on SM2, was roughly 18% of the spend. Note: Spider-Man has much larger "credits" than Concord. $245M allocated to 300 people (on average) over 3 years is roughly $272,000 per employee (includes all overhead costs, see Insomniac's detailed breakdown)

Probably Monsters, at its peak, was nowhere NEAR the peak of Insomniac Games at 380 direct employees working on Spider-Man 2. Estimates of FireWalk Studios was roughly 160, and we know that the studio size for ProbablyMonsters grew 65% in 2022. While we can't exactly know how much of that was for FireWalk directly, let's just assume that a dozen employees in 2019 gradually ramped up to a peak of 160 in 2022, and do some rough math.

2019 = 12 x $272,000 = $3.2M
2020 = 50 x $272,000 = $13.6M
2021 = 100 x $272,000 = $27.2M
2022 = 165 x $272,000 = $44.8M (headcount grew 65%)
2023 = 165 x $272,000 = $44.8M
2024 = 165 x $272,000/2 (only worked half the year) =$22.4M

Total Direct Studio Costs: $156M. Assuming outsourcing costs of 20%, similar to Insomniac, that brings the total to $187M

NOTE: I believe this estimate is at the EXTREMELY HIGH END for two main reasons, and a third one that is just more of a hunch:

1) Insomniac games has a VERY GENEROUS profit sharing structure for its employees based on the massive success they had with Spider-Man 1. It essentially shakes out to a roughly 25-33% bonus depending on the year. FireWalk studio is an unproven start-up company. At a start-up, you forego cash based or profit based compensation because that does not exist, in exchange for share ownership in the company itself. So the $272,000 average cost per employee is likely overstated massively for a start up studio in a less expensive part of the country compared to one of the most successful studios in the world in likely the most expensive place in the world to develop.

2) The employee headcount of 165 is around their peak, just like 380 was for Spider-Man 2 in the last stages of development. I had a full 2.5 years where I assumed that 165 employees were working at FireWalk, which represents a massive overestimate.

3) Spider-Man is a very large project where a significant amount of work was outsourced. It stands to reason to me that outsourcing costs would likely be higher for a game with much more on the line to support a much higher project complexity and far more visual production values that Sony is known to support. This point is arguable and not really provable in either way.

Bottom line: Any way you shake it, you cannot get to $400M. It's extremely implausible by more than a factor of 2X.
 
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James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
If he’s basing the number off a VC funding round for the parent company, based on what you’re claiming was said in the podcast James Sawyer Ford James Sawyer Ford , Colin could be mistaken. A funding round usually isn’t meant to be zeroed out like that toward a specific project, and is more like an operational war chest.

That was my interpretation of what was said in the podcast, or at least suggested. Because in the previous podcast he claimed that $200M was spent before Sony picked up the project. I think he's confusing that large amount of VC funding round as something that was almost immediately deployed, largely to Concord ($200M of the $250M), before Sony even picked up the project.

And this is where we get into the issue of "the devil is in the details" with all this stuff. His source may be 100% solid in the sense that they are an employee either working at Sony or FireWalk, and they may have thrown out some large numbers without truly understanding what they actually mean. Because I can see how it's very easy to confuse costs when you have a parent holding company for incubation projects transitioning that project to a first party. And I think that's an important distinction because without having a detailed accounting for actual costs, and not that warchest to be deployed in the future, you cannot know what was spent on Concord directly.

That warchest of VC funding is intended to keep the company solvent for many years, it's not something that simply vanishes in the span of a year (or at least, it shouldn't if the company is well managed). ProbablyMonsters is still a fairly sizable company and is currently operating multiple projects after divesting FireWalk over a year ago. They may ultimately end up going under, but it's not going to happen overnight. That's why I think some estimation of headcount times the yearly spend per head is probably a more reasonable way to estimate things even if there's obvious flaws in that approach too.
 
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kevboard

Member
If he’s basing the number off a VC funding round for the parent company, based on what you’re claiming was said in the podcast James Sawyer Ford James Sawyer Ford , Colin could be mistaken. A funding round usually isn’t meant to be zeroed out like that toward a specific project, and is more like an operational war chest.

he said that it seems all the other projects of that company are basically going nowhere and are tiny in comparison. so it could be that the vast majority of that money went indeed towards Concord.

so it's hard to say really.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Whether or not the number is $100M, $200M or $400M, do any of the streamers claim the any of these budgets were outright spent? Or it is just the war chest of XXX, but the actual money spent is YYY.

Unless a project gone over budget, companies always go conservative best they can. It's no different than getting a mortgage. You can go super lean scraping by every week only getting a $100k mortgage, or you can give yourself breathing room by applying for a $200k mortgage by keeping $100k in your bank account or investment accounts.

I always do that when I get a mortgage for my investment properties. With the loose cash I got to buy properties, I always leave myself minimum $50k to play with in case I need it or want to goof around more in the stock market with the other holdings I got.
 
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EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
That was my interpretation of what was said in the podcast, or at least suggested. Because in the previous podcast he claimed that $200M was spent before Sony picked up the project. I think he's confusing that large amount of VC funding round as something that was almost immediately deployed, largely to Concord ($200M of the $250M), before Sony even picked up the project.

And this is where we get into the issue of "the devil is in the details" with all this stuff. His source may be 100% solid in the sense that they are an employee either working at Sony or FireWalk, and they may have thrown out some large numbers without truly understanding what they actually mean. Because I can see how it's very easy to confuse costs when you have a parent holding company for incubation projects transitioning that project to a first party. And I think that's an important distinction because without having a detailed accounting for actual costs, and not that warchest to be deployed in the future, you cannot know what was spent on Concord directly.

That warchest of VC funding is intended to keep the company solvent for many years, it's not something that simply vanishes in the span of a year (or at least, it shouldn't if the company is well managed). ProbablyMonsters is still a fairly sizable company and is currently operating multiple projects after divesting FireWalk over a year ago. They may ultimately end up going under, but it's not going to happen overnight. That's why I think some estimation of headcount times the yearly spend per head is probably a more reasonable way to estimate things even if there's obvious flaws in that approach too.
All reasonable points and accurate statements about VC funding, yes.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
Exactly this. What sets the guy apart from agenda pushers like Schreier is that he's actually trustworthy.

They are both generally trustworthy, although Colin has said more things that don't appear to have been accurate. Jason is more trustworthy in my book, because he's not really going to disclose something without it being pretty much guaranteed (caveat, his takes on studio culture are not necessarily representative of the entire studio since he's only talking to a small sample).

I don't think Colin is intentionally lying, I just think his source is misinformed in this case and I think it simply looks bad on Colin's part that he's this strongly supporting it.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
$150 million is entirely plausible for a worldwide campaign that doesn't feel like it was very high profile to a specific individual. Don't forget you're one person, in one country, in one demographic.

It's not plausible at all. Some of it is a sunk cost, but a lot of it just simply wasn't spent at all.

Sony had very little faith in advertising the product after the reveal and beta numbers came out, and for good reason. There's no way this game had anywhere close to that marketing spend.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Feeling out marketing spend can be deceptive, especially for a flop. If a product is inherently unlikeable, it’ll basically be invisible to the consumer even if ads are plastered everywhere.

That said, $150M spent for marketing Concord is a very large number. That’s order of magnitude of RDR2, which had a huge, several year, multi-faceted campaign across every major sector.

Concord’s plug was pulled too soon for that kind of spend. It’s possible that $150M was planned, though. And even with pulling the plug, they had completed CG specials in the can etc. So it was likely still significant.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
Sony had very little faith in advertising the product after the reveal and beta numbers came out, and for good reason. There's no way this game had anywhere close to that marketing spend.
Most of the marketing work was already done at that point, most the of the money for it spent. The beta was in July.
Marketing isn't a "now that the thing is nearing release, we'll start doing our thing" kind of deal.

Even if marketing campaigns were very likely scrapped due to the reception - and maybe a bit of money saved that way - the work on those campaigns was most likely done already and therein lies the biggest cost.

And even with pulling the plug, they had completed CG specials in the can etc. So it was likely still significant.
Exactly that.
 

HogIsland

Member
Feeling our marketing spend can be deceptive, especially for a flop. If a product is inherently unlikeable, it’ll basically be invisible to the consumer even if ads are plastered everywhere.

That said, $150M spent for marketing Concord is a very large number. That’s order of magnitude of RDR2, which had a huge, several year, multi-faceted campaign across every major sector.

Concord’s plug was pulled too soon for that kind of spend. It’s possible that $150M was planned, though. And even with pulling the plug, they had completed CG specials in the can etc. So it was likely still significant.
RDR2 had ads plastered all over my city. Public transit was covered in Arthur Morgan. I doubt Concord had anything like that anywhere.
 

FunkMiller

Member
It's not plausible at all. Some of it is a sunk cost, but a lot of it just simply wasn't spent at all.

Sony had very little faith in advertising the product after the reveal and beta numbers came out, and for good reason. There's no way this game had anywhere close to that marketing spend.

It absolutely is. The amount of separate territories that exist where adverting space on conventional media can be bought is extremely large. And expensive. As is targeted advertising on the internet. Millions upon millions can be wasted on what amounts to very little in the end, because digital advertising across the world is still something of a wild west, involving a lot of chancers who claim a great deal, and deliver not much at all. I can easily see Sony ploughing multiple millions into a campaign that runs into nine figures on a game like Concord. They certainly aren't the only ones. I've seen total advertising spends that would make your eyes water.

And if you think a company won't throw good money after bad trying to flog a product they've had bad feedback about, then I don't know what to tell you.
 

PandaOk

Neo Member
OP….. do you know a Sarah in real life or did you just pick that name at random 👀 🤔


Ehhhhh on topic, 400 million sounds like the total budget including marketing not the money actually spent.
Yeah if it’s the total budget including marketing and the budget allocated for say the next x period of ongoing support as a GAAS.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
RDR2 had ads plastered all over my city. Public transit was covered in Arthur Morgan. I doubt Concord had anything like that anywhere.
But it is most likely that they had already spent money on reserving the spaces, slots, on the work for the art, production, etc.
Even if they backed out, the deals for those spaces and slots were made and they'd likely not get out of that for free.

What you as a consumer see is only the very tip of the iceberg at the end of the marketing work.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
Feeling our marketing spend can be deceptive, especially for a flop. If a product is inherently unlikeable, it’ll basically be invisible to the consumer even if ads are plastered everywhere.

That said, $150M spent for marketing Concord is a very large number. That’s order of magnitude of RDR2, which had a huge, several year, multi-faceted campaign across every major sector.

Concord’s plug was pulled too soon for that kind of spend. It’s possible that $150M was planned, though. And even with pulling the plug, they had completed CG specials in the can etc. So it was likely still significant.
RDR2 had ads plastered all over my city. Public transit was covered in Arthur Morgan. I doubt Concord had anything like that anywhere.

Truth.

I forgot this game even existed and feel like I heard it about it more here then anywhere else. They did a bad job even communicating anything about the free beta, I thought you had to buy it, but by the time they did the whole free thing, I heard about it too late and wanted to try it out lol

So its like, well....if I'm not trying it, i'm not buying it as a online shooter type thing.

A lot of things hurt this game and even HOW it was marketed was odd, like the first trailer, I thought it was a single player game, it was only later I read it was some MP thing, but its like....well my first image of this game is not even the genre that it is lol

Look, if we remake Warhawk, I'm not showing shit about some narrative, just show some Warhawks being blown up and having some whole demonstration Ubisoft style with some fake chatter and call it a day.

Those that know its not a single player can move on, those that love MP titles can see first hand off bat what it is. I feel this game failed to strike while the iron was hot for MP fans to care.
 

Interfectum

Member
There's more than one kind of "specifics".

There's the kind that can expose your source and there's the kind that doesn't.

Wouldn't it be nice to know what leadership said to the team during one of Firewalks milestone parties? Or what about the size of the studio in 2020, 2021, 2022 etc...Or about a concept that was originally planned for the game but got cut sometime during development? Heck, wouldn't it be nice to know where the bulk of the money went considering the studio size, length of development, and outsourcing rate doesn't add up to...most expensive game ever made?

There are so many details that the majority of Firewalk employees know, details that can easily be corroborated, that Colin ("I used to be a journalist") Moriarty simply avoids.

If I want to share an unbelievable story, I start by saying "You're not going to believe this...", then I share the story. Then I wait for my good natured friends & family to scoff at me and say "That didn't happen! You gotta be lying!"

Then I say "No, I swear...(and give further detail until my audience begins to believe me)". When I share an unbelievable story I expect skepticism from people. It's healthy to be skeptical of the ludicrous.

Colin doesn't do this.

Colin goes on the attack / plays victim immediately. "How could you not trust me? Haven't I proven myself enough for you? You're just a Twitter troll etc..."

This is sketchy behavior.
How Dare You Reaction GIF by Bounce
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Thanks for the gold EviLore EviLore ! I'm not sure why I'm so obsessed with this topic lol, perhaps because Concord's failure is fascinating given how swift and large it was. I hope that someday we get some more concrete information, preferably in a Sony financial statement disclosure, but I tend to think it'll remain a mystery we continue to debate for a long time....
It was solid research and analysis, good addition to the discussion.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
They are usually 4 to 5 hours long. It can take about an hour to get to talking about games sometimes. Lot of fluff at the beginning of what his co-presenters have had for lunch or how many shits they've had since the last podcast. I think they think most people are interesting in the mundane lives of the crew. They could cut some of the fat from the run time, but people are paying for it, so maybe they expect a certain amount of hours equals value. I usually skip to the game talk.

That's what their listeners want. They do NOT want a straight 90 minutes games-only conversation: the Patreon audience or the Youtube-only audience.

It absolutely is. The amount of separate territories that exist where adverting space on conventional media can be bought is extremely large. And expensive. As is targeted advertising on the internet. Millions upon millions can be wasted on what amounts to very little in the end, because digital advertising across the world is still something of a wild west, involving a lot of chancers who claim a great deal, and deliver not much at all. I can easily see Sony ploughing multiple millions into a campaign that runs into nine figures on a game like Concord. They certainly aren't the only ones. I've seen total advertising spends that would make your eyes water.

And if you think a company won't throw good money after bad trying to flog a product they've had bad feedback about, then I don't know what to tell you.

Dude, I don't think you understand how big $150 million in marketing is. Insomniac had their marketing dollars leak in the hack. And I don't think any of the Spiderman games had marketing dollars over $100 million.
 

miklonus

Member
i cant believe people are trying to discredit one of the best and loyal Playstation "influencers" because they don't want to believe it.

Like he says, the guy could be lying. That's all there is to it. He spoke to the guy for 4 and a half hours and thoroughly checked his resume.
i cant believe people are trying to discredit one of the best and loyal Playstation "influencers" because they don't want to believe it.
Do you know what site you're on?
 
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