Microsoft aren't providing numbers on any hardware sales. It literally exceeded expectations per Phil Spencer's words. What's substaniating your idea that it's selling below expectations now? Are you going the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence route?
Colin Moriarty of Kinda Funny: source says "most developers are not happy with PS4.5"
- Thread starter Chobel
- Start date
Microsoft aren't providing numbers on any hardware sales. It literally exceeded expectations per Phil Spencer's words. What's substaniating your idea that it's selling below expectations now? Are you going the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence route?
Pal, forget about it. If you don't want to sound like a broken record, just ignore the comparissons. I've been saying the same thing over and over again.
Because it fits certain people's agendas.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
You fundamentally misunderstood why that meme is even a thing. People didn't mock Ars because they said "selling out" isn't a big deal. They mocked Ars because they said "record breaking sales" weren't a big deal.
Selling out of an unknown quantity is not impressive, ever. When manufacturers start flaunting figures and rates, that's what actually impressive, and I don't know if PS4K will experience the sort of booming success that the base PS4 did
CosmicQueso
Member
Why the fuck would that be sarcasm.
An actual dev, a real one, not some made up imaginary one, comes in and shares a slightly new take, and I tell that poster I appreciated their doing so, and I get called out for sarcasm?
And that actual devs thoughts on the impact to indies is a lot more relevant and interesting than a "I'm pretty sure Sony..." conjecture post.
If it sells great... "This is meaningless! Everything sells out at launch! It's still awful!"
If it sells poorly... "I told you this was a mistake! The proof is in the sales! No one wants this!"
wapplew
Member
Well, I think this is not try something new, this is them take one risk so that they can do the same thing over and over again.
Wii is something new, DS is something new, VR is something new, more powerful every 3 years is not.
Movalpolos
Banned
Dont listen to Colin. He's full of shit.
pixellated_man
Member
Flipping heck, some of you must be MISERABLE judging by the relentless way you argue for the worse case scenario - almost to the point that it looks you actually want the worst to happen, just to prove your points, lol.
Anyway, it's clear that till this thing is officially announced and released, the same arguments will be endlessly repeated by both sides.
I'm bowing out from ps4k threads out until then.
At least I'm gonna try to
* yeah, I'm back aready - but just to add that I'm talking about a section of the anti ps4k / neo brigade. Some of you have valid concerns and I wasn't addressing you.
Bye. I'm exiting for real this time!
Anyway, it's clear that till this thing is officially announced and released, the same arguments will be endlessly repeated by both sides.
I'm bowing out from ps4k threads out until then.
At least I'm gonna try to
* yeah, I'm back aready - but just to add that I'm talking about a section of the anti ps4k / neo brigade. Some of you have valid concerns and I wasn't addressing you.
Bye. I'm exiting for real this time!
gundamkyoukai
Member
PS4k don't need to be the booming success that PS4 was .
Sony is still going to keep on selling the OG PS4 .
How successfully it will be will be base on the market and Sony own expectations .
And it's to early for us to know about either of them .
New as in business model not hardware .
FarFromAnyGame
Banned
His claim doesn't make sense, I wonder if he really did speak to someone or he's making all that up? I'm sure if Colin took a look at any PC game he'd know that turning on/off graphics settings in a game is much simpler than he thinks.
if the PS4 was the most powerful system in the world then, yes, it would be a pain in the ass to create even better assets/effects for the even more powerful PS4. I'm pretty sure even the Neo assets/effects are much less demanding than PC Ultra settings.
if the devs are annoyed by this, then why would Sony release it? I think Sony is doing it because said devs wanted more power!
if the PS4 was the most powerful system in the world then, yes, it would be a pain in the ass to create even better assets/effects for the even more powerful PS4. I'm pretty sure even the Neo assets/effects are much less demanding than PC Ultra settings.
if the devs are annoyed by this, then why would Sony release it? I think Sony is doing it because said devs wanted more power!
LapinAgile
Member
I know many who bought 360 elites for hdmi and skins when those came out. Same with PS3 slim. The only new thing here is the jump in power. I think it'll do fine with consumers at least.
NoctisVsStar
Member
CosmicQueso
Member
Help me out here.
How does this:
not completely and absolutely contradicted by this:
So your concern is that the 4K splits the userbase, however you want a whole new generation of consoles to come earlier?
So instead of a small increase in time and costs implementing Neo enhancements on a similar generational architecture over a 2 or 3 year console cycle extension, we should expect better results with cross-generation development 2-3 years earlier than this strategy would allow?
What?
How does this:
not completely and absolutely contradicted by this:
So your concern is that the 4K splits the userbase, however you want a whole new generation of consoles to come earlier?
So instead of a small increase in time and costs implementing Neo enhancements on a similar generational architecture over a 2 or 3 year console cycle extension, we should expect better results with cross-generation development 2-3 years earlier than this strategy would allow?
What?
They are being compared to those because average Joe console consumer, not hardcore gaf or other gaming forum user, will see this the same way he sees those products. The guy that gets cod and madden every year will either upgrade because its better or won't care, because they are already conditioned by those other markets to upgrade or not care.
Papacheeks
Banned
So what if the top happens? What if the Neo sells and the new console PS5 or whatever it's called comes out and sales are far below PS4, even in PS3 territory?
What then? Would it be true that what I and many others have iterated that it would have a overall long term negative impact on early adoption for the start of new generation?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Hahaha, every damned time.
wapplew
Member
Not exactly new business model per say, Nintendo did it since GB era.
First time on home console maybe.
gundamkyoukai
Member
CosmicQueso
Member
OMG RIP Prince. Holy shit.
Well, I think the above is referring to the Neo.
But let's say the Neo does come out, followed by the PS5 in 2020.
Many things could cause a decline in PS5 sales versus prior generations. Competition, consumer play patterns, changes in other gaming and entertainment consumption habits, perhaps even something like this causing people to migrate away from console gaming.
Would be awfully difficult to point to this particular issue, among all the challenges facing traditional console gaming market 4 years from now, as the driving force behind a decline, but it's possible, sure.
Well, I think the above is referring to the Neo.
But let's say the Neo does come out, followed by the PS5 in 2020.
Many things could cause a decline in PS5 sales versus prior generations. Competition, consumer play patterns, changes in other gaming and entertainment consumption habits, perhaps even something like this causing people to migrate away from console gaming.
Would be awfully difficult to point to this particular issue, among all the challenges facing traditional console gaming market 4 years from now, as the driving force behind a decline, but it's possible, sure.
FarFromAnyGame
Banned
TBH, it doesn't need to sell well, it's only for those who want more power. The original PS4 will work as it would have without the Neo in the market. I hope the PS5 launches with a "Neo" version, too.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Exactly. As it stands, consoles, are the last remaining tech that does not have hardware refreshes to improve upon itself within the same ecosystem.
Every. Other. Piece. Of Tech. DOES THIS!
The market is contracting... even without the Wii anomaly. Console makers and game makers will not be able to survive the traditional refreshes of a new gen every 4-6 years, as other ecosystems are flourishing and EXPANDING their markets. Where did a lot of Wii owners go? Mobile and the like. And there is no winning them back from their locked in ecosystem. However, you can keep the gamers you have now in your ecosystem if you expand the market, which is what this is doing, and why other tech success is starting to bleed into consoles and influence.
Consoles are no longer traditional the minute they became online, firmware updating, multimedia machines... hence they need to expand their market just like every other tech or they eventually will reach a breaking point.
Ever hear people always say, 'collecting dust'... a lot is not the 'no games', a lot is to due with people usually getting excited for new tech to play with and the excitement is not as electrifying as time goes on. This is for those people, as well as 4K adoption rate, to keep them from looking elsewhere for a better fix for fun. Lock them in the ecosystem, providing them with a new toy they are accustomed to buying in other tech markets (tablets, phones, PCs, TVs, etc.). I notice I will go on long hiatus's from not playing games. Not because there is no games to play, but that is what I would do due to that initial novelty of 'new toy' is gone. However, if I get a new tech gadget, somehow I am transfixed into messing around with it... a new PS4K? I would be inclined to pick it up, and put many hours into my 'new device' before it goes into the 'dormant mode' again because the 'freshness' of new tech wore off. And guess what... I am still in the PS4 ecosystem, still buying the same PS4 software... it triggered me to stay in it.
They're not the same markets, at all. That's the point. it's a stupid comparison. Phones sell to BILLIONS of people on Earth. Consoles sell to people play video games. And how can you even say the market is contracting when the PS4 is selling as historically well as it has? This is nonsense. Tech isn't everything. This isn't even an argument against NEO, just against that comparison.
I could potentially get hit by a car today going to lunch. Is that going to stop me from getting lunch? No.
DannyDanger
Member
Yea, he's projecting his introduction to the neo on "most devs"... He (and all of us) found out this thing exists, and is coming thru a leak. Caught us by surprise.
Devs were probably surveyed, polled, and had demonstrations before Sony even green lit the SKU.
I'm not misunderstanding anything. Sony aren't going to put out this new version of the PS4 in small quantities.
Are the same people taking part in those markets? If yes then the average person will understand exactly what this is and just say ok its just like phones. If not well I guess console owners don't buy phones or any other tech devices.
Papacheeks
Banned
But I'm willing to bet my avatar that if games get promoted for "Best played on Neo" along with vr or a possible revision of PSVR by that time, the end result will be less early adopters than previous console.
The messaging, the price, and the initial campaign for PS4 was pretty great. Which was with the blunders of MS is why it sold so well.
If Sony starts touting PS4 NEO with being best way to play certain games and VR, and by that time we start seeing discrepancy's on games. It's not going to take long for that to trickle into their E3 messaging or reaction by viewers if PS5 is even worth the price at launch.
Yes there are other factors that can lead up to it. But messaging, value proposition, and where the previous console is in it's life cycle have a lot to do with how early adopters will react to a new Gen console.
MatthewTrujillo
Banned
Last gen really messed up the console cycle it went on way to long. Yes at the end we had some pretty remarkable looking games but the hardware was super outdated by the 4th year on market. I want the normal 5 year cycle back but I'm ok with the mid gen upgrades.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I feel like the apprehension about this product is actually the factor that's more likely to make it succeed. There's this great fear that consumers are going to "need" this for a proper experience. And while that may completely alienate some and cause them to leave the PlayStation ecosystem, I think the more likely outcome is that this thing does well because people reluctantly bite the bullet and upgrade to a product that they don't really need.
I've said it before that my personal take on this is that I think the concern is coming from the wrong direction. My assumption -- and I may very well be wrong -- is that the more likely scenario is that early adopters of the 4K are going to find themselves with modest benefits at best and fairly underwhelming benefits at worst as opposed to regular PS4 owners feeling left out in the cold overnight as their box is rendered obsolete. If you're apprehensive about what this new device means for the marketplace, I think the most productive thing you can do is just wait for the dust to settle and see where the marketplace and developers land on this. Because working oneself into a panic that this is going to be a necessary upgrade instead of an optional one is only going to help the sales of this device.
I've said it before that my personal take on this is that I think the concern is coming from the wrong direction. My assumption -- and I may very well be wrong -- is that the more likely scenario is that early adopters of the 4K are going to find themselves with modest benefits at best and fairly underwhelming benefits at worst as opposed to regular PS4 owners feeling left out in the cold overnight as their box is rendered obsolete. If you're apprehensive about what this new device means for the marketplace, I think the most productive thing you can do is just wait for the dust to settle and see where the marketplace and developers land on this. Because working oneself into a panic that this is going to be a necessary upgrade instead of an optional one is only going to help the sales of this device.
wapplew
Member
So you think release new hardware frequently is the best way expand the market or stop it shrinking?
Turning console into a steam box like device, losing identity and uniqueness only expose it's weakness, that's why some poster said they better upgrade PC.
FarFromAnyGame
Banned
Exactly, it's not like Sony just went and said to the devs:"We're releasing an upgraded version this fall, go get your work done!"
NoctisVsStar
Member
Agreed, too much panic going around.
AmuroChan
Member
Furthermore, developing a Neo sku should be much easier than making a PS3 port, which many devs were doing during the console transition and some are still doing it today.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Time will tell, but it is one way to expand the market and keep people locked in, knowing the same software will work, with possible benefits of improvement on a new device, not unlike they experience in other facets of tech. Also allowing developers to take more risks of pushing more in their games, with an established usberbase within the same ecosystem. Not having to 'start from scratch' that carries greater risks.
They will not lose identity, lol. It is still Playstation, and still the Playstation ecosystem. They all (Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft) want their gaming platforms as a service, and lock people into the ecosystem. Hence why they all will be doing this. At least Sony and MSFT for sure. Nintendo may look at ways to utilize mobile more, or if their endeavors are that of what Sony and MSFT do now with mobile, then it will be disappointing, and late to the game.
Papacheeks
Banned
The issue I keep talking about is this products overall long term impact on the market. If it does well, other companies will follow. And that can leap to decrease in early adoption for next generational consoles, if there is even one if this new model is more valuable to them.
It could cause a chain reaction in the industry that overall could bring console gaming to a stop. Especially if nex generational console cycles go away and iterative consoles every 2-3 years become the norm.
That's what I am afraid of, and the minute we see any discrepancy between titles on PS4 and Neo is when we might see the slip of the console market.
That's what worries me about this model is it's huge risk on the long term impact of console gaming.
People do not buy these consoles like they do other products. They are a want not a need.
I think the huge demand for slim versions of the PS3 and 360 that offered no power advantages is why the PS4K will do well, even though it won't have the price advantage the slims did.
CosmicQueso
Member
Fair enough. There are tons of risks regarding how games will be packaged and labeled.
You disappeared from that Retail Perspective thread. We got into some of these issues, and the one you brought up about in store videos for example. You should check it out and hopefully add to it?
gundamkyoukai
Member
Gens won't be the same if this works .
If PS5 comes out Sony would drop PS4 support and Neo would become the new base line .
Companies won't have to start fresh because they will be millions of neo users by then .
Steve Youngblood
Member
Well, there's that too. I'm just saying that the apprehension about the 4K representing a necessary upgrade as opposed to an optional one is only going to help sales, not hinder them. If you're someone who resents this device on principle, it's probably more beneficial to take the more optimistic approach of hoping that this doesn't represent that substantial of an upgrade.
Papacheeks
Banned
Thanks. Yea couple people didn't like my tone, And I apologize for going off the rails a little in that thread.
Meant no disrespect to you. I think I just thought the thread itself was very short sighted if only looking at it from a retail perspective that's all.
Audioboxer
Member
Unless of course it bombs at launch, and some pictures of shelves in retail stores go online with CRATES of PS4ks stacked up.
*prays* Sony doesn't call it PS4 Elite.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Why upgrade to PC when the PC market is shrinking? Intel just laid off 10% of its workforce.
Oh wait, you can differentiate the prebuilt PC market from the enthusiast market?
Then you can also differentiate that not all consoles are the same. Just because Nintendo's market is shrinking doesn't mean Sony and Mictosoft's is.
CosmicQueso
Member
You were making great points, it's just that you were actually making the great points about the retail environment, even if you didn't know it at the time.
Not to sidetrack here, but if a customer is in the store looking at a product, then we have to assume that all the marketing and PR and other nonsense worked, at least enough to get them physically in the store or at the website. After that, it's up to that retailer or website to seal the deal. Sure, development, marketing, all of that is the foundation of the purchase decision, at retail is the final action right? Anyways.
And this is the VERY DIFFERENT situation than the DRM Xbox One reveal, that some keep trying to equate to the current situation. GameStop was what got the DRM thing reversed. Consumers think they did it themselves. Well, while consumer voice certainly helped, it was GameStop throwing its very considerable weight on the issue that changed things as quickly as it happened. In this situation, retail should be very supportive. Makes a huge difference.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I would say from a retail perspective iterative consoles make more sense and would bring in more money .
It can even grow the market in a certain way since the base models would become more cheap .
I don't know why more people don't look at it the other way where we had a PS4 exclusive like Bloodborne be unable to run at a locked 30 fps long before the Neo was in the equation. Certain games were always going to struggle technically; Neo just gives you the option of better performance if you want to pay for it.
Papacheeks
Banned
There wont be 40+ million though that's the issue they will have. You think every person who currently owns a PS4 will upgrade to that?
It's either going 3 ways:
- A. This releases this year or early next and does what it does without much fuss. Then around 2018 rumors of PS5 start cirulating and a reveal in 2019 proves it's real and coming making it a 6 year cycle which is close to what they wanted.
- B. NEO sells really well, and lots of 4K content magically comes out in the nest year or so, and SOny sells a boat load of 4K tvs and 4K content along with VR. And since it is pushing the new resolution format for tv's they reiterate the console again and cancel doing generational consoles.
- C. It sells well, they go ahead with PS5 but plan for another reiteration 2-3 years in, every other platform holder wants in for making money on hardware, and everyone does it. ANd the days of getting value for a generation are over, and only people who canb keep up buying iterations will be the people these devices are for, and console gaming will slowly implode.
Fine switch the argument to the majority of tech.
Pick tablets if you want or whatever you feel is a better comparison.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
I don't really buy into this notion that "most" developers are on unhappy.
It's not like developers are going to put forth massive resources to utilize the extra power and they will still use the PS4 as the base and then upscale where they can with minimal effort.
Not to mention Sony explicitly stated that there will be no exclusive games for the PS4K.
and as such developers will still develop as the PS4 is the target audience.
It's not like developers are going to put forth massive resources to utilize the extra power and they will still use the PS4 as the base and then upscale where they can with minimal effort.
Not to mention Sony explicitly stated that there will be no exclusive games for the PS4K.
and as such developers will still develop as the PS4 is the target audience.
stargateheaven
Member
it's not even a big deal to me..
wow you get 4k and some better frame rates.
i still get to play everything
wow you get 4k and some better frame rates.
i still get to play everything
wapplew
Member
Aside from the problem of disc label in your case, game constantly get holding back is my worst fear of this model.
Say I want to play a game with PS5 as baseline, i got fuck because I need to wait until they drop PS4.5 support.
When I get to play PS5 baseline game, I got fuck again cause PS5.5 will play them better.
Then I say ok, I'll wait until PS5.5 and jump in, I got fuck too cause I know PS5 fucking holding my games back!
I'll be in a never ending unsatisfactory condition.
But that's just me, I'm sure I'm quite alone in this one.
I'm sorry to feel this way, I guess been burned too much by how much dev unwilling to drop last gen support, especially Japanese titles. I fear IPad/PC model will make thing worse.
I'll never get games code to metal for the lastest hardware ever again. It's fucking sad.