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[synce]

I don't understand all the comparisons to phones. Are people actually spending hundreds of dollars every few years? I think the vast majority don't upgrade that often, and they're probably locked in a contract so the cost is much lower. Most I'll spend on a phone is $100.

Besides that, if consoles are going to become like phones, why even buy one when you can just go the PC route? Free online, better hardware options, no worries about back compat, etc. At this rate consoles will probably go extinct within the next few gens.

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

"Don't buy the new iPhone because Apple will release another, probably better versions next year. Early adopters beware!"
- Said noone ever

Why is the game industry special in this regard? Its a piece of tech that's better than its predecessor.

The reason, and this is necessarily speculative on my part, boils down to customer expectations. That is to say that people have come to expect different things from different markets. As far as the consumer is concerned, the phone and console ecosystems are not the same, and as such there are different expectations for each--which most folks perceive as 'normal' these days. Any diversions from these expectations will often raise an eyebrow as a result.

 

[Abdiel]

That's what i'm getting at. The PS4 is actually selling more this year than it did last year during the same time period. How are those people not supposed to feel burned on some level when they find out that had they held out they could've got the upgraded model?



Price drops happen all the time. You know that it could come out of nowhere. That's not comparable to an iterative model happening because there's no precedence for that.

Largely, the people buying as we move forward into the gen, are those motivated by deals and pricing, not power options and premium availability, which is what this presents. A suddenly higher priced option that comes with advantages based on those prices that will allow for Sony to continue lowering the existing model's price point will not impact the overall buying audience who wants the cheaper deal's inclinations, except to perhaps help them even more.

So, no. I don't think this is a big deal at all.

 

[NullPointer]

Why is the game industry special in this regard?

Because that is what makes it special.

Consoles are fixed, closed systems over an extended period, and that has ramifications to the value proposition, customer experience and expectations, and the nature of game development for the platform.

 

[StoopKid]

I don't understand all the comparisons to phones. Are people actually spending hundreds of dollars every few years? I think the vast majority don't upgrade that often, and they're probably locked in a contract so the cost is much lower. Most I'll spend on a phone is $100.

Besides that, if consoles are going to become like phones, why even buy one when you can just go the PC route? Free online, better hardware options, no worries about back compat, etc. At this rate consoles will probably go extinct within the next few gens.

Doesn't have to be phones you can compare it to pretty much to any piece of tech.

 

[backbreaker65]

delete

 

[mikefrails]

I bought used for this exact reason. Sony is known for putting out PlayStation revisions at some point in the gen. Sure I spent $280 on the og PS4 but as long as Sony isn't getting $800+ of my money on hardware then I'm okay with it.

If you bought new I can see why you'd be pissed. PlayStation hasn't done much this gen to prove they deserve upwards of $1000 on their hardware.

 

[Daft Punk]

sony had to convince the ps3 was worth $599 at first. it didn't turn out so well.

Where Colin's assumption (as well as yours and many others) is wrong is that consumers will be looking at this as a middle finger at all. People keep ignoring and hand waving it away, but cell phones, cars, and TVs are all real quantifiable examples of what is going on with Neo. We are no getting to a point with technology that having 6-8 years between generations is no longer sustainable in terms of developer needs and this is the result of that. People are having a hard time grasping this because they are only seeing that $400 they just spent somehow not mean anything anymore just because a new version of it has been released. Do the people who buy the new Galaxy S6 or iPhone 6 get pissed when the next iterations are released? No they aren't, because they realize that technology must progress forward.

So now we come to 3 years down the road and a improved version of the PS4 is released. It addresses those who are worried that their PS4s are going to become obsolete. It addresses those who are worried that the PS4 versions are going to look like total shit as soon as the Neo version is released. It addresses many things, yet people still show resistance and for the life of me, I really can't see why.

 

[Glorified G]

I don't understand all the comparisons to phones. Are people actually spending hundreds of dollars every few years? I think the vast majority don't upgrade that often, and they're probably locked in a contract so the cost is much lower. Most I'll spend on a phone is $100.

Besides that, if consoles are going to become like phones, why even buy one when you can just go the PC route? Free online, better hardware options, no worries about back compat, etc. At this rate consoles will probably go extinct within the next few gens.

Did the bolded some how not exist before the PS4K rumors?

 

[Aces&Eights]

There is no pain in change, only the resistance to it.

 

[FarFromAnyGame]

Largely, the people buying as we move forward into the gen, are those motivated by deals and pricing, not power options and premium availability, which is what this presents. A suddenly higher priced option that comes with advantages based on those prices that will allow for Sony to continue lowering the existing model's price point will not impact the overall buying audience who wants the cheaper deal's inclinations, except to perhaps help them even more.

So, no. I don't think this is a big deal at all.

I agree and I also think that original PS4 sales will increase with the price drop and the release of Neo. it's a luxury item for enthusiasts who care about framerate and softer shadows and slightly more pixels on screen. Neo does not make your PS4 shitty. Your PS4 is still the same and will play the games as it would have without the Neo.

And as I said in the other thread, did Nvidia give the middle finger to the "early adopters" who bought the GTX980 when they released the GTX980Ti? No, and guess what? people still buy the original 980.

 

[farisr]

But prior to all these leaks and reports, who was actually asking for a mid-gen stop gap semi-upgrade console? Were you?

It's been an idea since last gen at the very least. See:'PS3.5' , 'XBOX 360 Plus' would you upgrade?

People concerned with framerate and resolution but don't want to have to deal with the PC. Over the years I've seen many people say something along the lines of "I wish they would just come out with a premium. more expensive model with better specs that's able to run these games better, I'd buy that in an instant."

 

[NullPointer]

We are no getting to a point with technology that having 6-8 years between generations is no longer sustainable in terms of developer needs and this is the result of that.

What needs exactly?

Because those needs still have to be met by the base PS4, even with the NEO.

 

[TGO]

Doesn't have to be phones you can compare it to pretty much to any piece of tech.

My AV system and TV is probably gonna last me twice as long then my PS4 or PS4K.
Only phones have such a refresh rate which ties into yearly or 2years contract which you pay for as part of your contract.
I can assure you if at the end of your contract your network provider said £800 please plus you're £50 monthly bill you wouldn't be upgrading so quickly.

 

[prag16]

So now we come to 3 years down the road and a improved version of the PS4 is released. It addresses those who are worried that their PS4s are going to become obsolete. It addresses those who are worried that the PS4 versions are going to look like total shit as soon as the Neo version is released. It addresses many things, yet people still show resistance and for the life of me, I really can't see why.

You lost me here. How does an improved version of the PS4 "address" concerns from those with original PS4 hardware? Without the "improved" version, what would the original be obsolete compared to (other than PCs)? The PS4 wouldn't have gimped versions of games without the existence of the improved PS4 either. "Issues" are only "addressed" for people who are gung ho on board for this improved PS4.

My AV system and TV is probably gonna last me twice as long then my PS4 or PS4K.
Only phones have such a refresh rate which ties into yearly or 2years contract which you pay for as part of your contract.
I can assure you if at the end of your contract your network provider said £800 please plus you're £50 monthly bill you wouldn't be upgrading so quickly.

Good point here. My TV is almost 9 years old and obsolete many times over.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

The reason, and this is necessarily speculative on my part, boils down to customer expectations. That is to say that people have come to expect different things from different markets. As far as the consumer is concerned, the phone and console ecosystems are not the same, and as such there are different expectations for each--which most folks perceive as 'normal' these days. Any diversions from these expectations will often raise an eyebrow as a result.

But it's not really a bad thing to deviate from the expectations. Something like this could still be a blessing for some, but not necessarily others. I know the whole thing with him saying it gives the middle finger to people, but in reality (you don't expect this to usually happen) it's not all bad. The Sony won't make you buy the PS4K. All games will work on both systems side by side (of course one will run better, but they will all be playable). If anything, it's reaching to a few different markets here. One, with the 4K coming out, it will lower the price of the normal PS4 to being $299 or something around there while something like the 4K could be 399, providing a cheaper alternative for people that want to get their foot in the door and to play games, but not the full experience. Or you can have the 4K be used for people that could be drawn in and have yet to get a PS4 and to get the full graphical experience. And there are those that want the full experience, even if they own a current PS4 and will still buy the 4K. Basically, it opens up to wider audience than before with more choice, and hopefully prices to match.

As a heads up, I've had a PS4 since launch and even put my own HDD in the system, and I'd be okay with getting the 4K, especially since I'm a person that's used to upgrading my PC hardware (mainly a PC person).

To end it, even though this deviates from the norm for consoles, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing for the game industry, we're just not exactly sure of how well it will pan out. The fact that all games will work on both systems and both systems will co-exist in the same generation is perfectly fine. Sony isn't forcing you to upgrade to the 4K, so if you don't want to upgrade, then you don't have to.

 

[PeterLegend]

Colin sounds butthurt, acting like a drama queen according to his podcast.

 

[StoopKid]

My AV system and TV is probably gonna last me twice as long then my PS4 or PS4K.
Only phones have such a refresh rate which ties into yearly or 2years contract which you pay for as part of your contract.
I can assure you if at the end of your contract your network provider said £800 please plus you're £50 monthly bill you wouldn't be upgrading so quickly.

I never said that.

All I said the majority of tech has upgrades mid gen or whenever.

You don't have to compare it to phones you can compare it to tablets if you want.

 

[spwolf]

My AV system and TV is probably gonna last me twice as long then my PS4 or PS4K.
Only phones have such a refresh rate which ties into yearly or 2years contract which you pay for as part of your contract.
I can assure you if at the end of your contract your network provider said £800 please plus you're £50 monthly bill you wouldn't be upgrading so quickly.

just like your tv, ps4 will not stop functioning because new OLED model came out.

Phones are refreshed 6-12 months, not 24 months.

 

[FarFromAnyGame]

My AV system and TV is probably gonna last me twice as long then my PS4 or PS4K.
Only phones have such a refresh rate which ties into yearly or 2years contract which you pay for as part of your contract.
I can assure you if at the end of your contract your network provider said £800 please plus you're £50 monthly bill you wouldn't be upgrading so quickly.

I bought my TV 3 years ago for $800 but today I could get a 4K TV for less than that. Should I rant about it?

 

[spwolf]

You lost me here. How does an improved version of the PS4 "address" concerns from those with original PS4 hardware? Without the "improved" version, what would the original be obsolete compared to (other than PCs)? The PS4 wouldn't have gimped versions of games without the existence of the improved PS4 either. "Issues" are only "addressed" for people who are gung ho on board for this improved PS4.

ps4 has gimped games because of xb1 and that wont change. If anything we see devs giving less time to ps4 since it is more powerful, they dont ignore and gimp xb1

 

[Daft Punk]

What needs exactly?

Because those needs still have to be met by the base PS4, even with the NEO.

Needs based upon the limitations that are already against the current generation's consoles. Neo's beefier guts will allow devs to go even further than what is possible on the base PS4 (CPU being the only fly in the soup).

You lost me here. How does an improved version of the PS4 "address" concerns from those with original PS4 hardware? Without the "improved" version, what would the original be obsolete compared to (other than PCs)? The PS4 wouldn't have gimped versions of games without the existence of the improved PS4 either. "Issues" are only "addressed" for people who are gung ho on board for this improved PS4.

I'm referring to those who have done nothing, but cried Chicken Little that with the Neo coming out, all games on the PS4 will somehow revert to PS3 status and blah blah. What you are trying to say is if the Neo never existed, there would have been no need to worry about an inferior version in the first place which makes no sense considering that most devs will focus on the PS4 version first. If your PS4 game runs like it normally would in either case, what is the problem of having a version that makes use of better hardware? People who are complaining are the ones who are bring up "issues" with no resolution except not to do it at all.

 

[Woo-Fu]

When somebody says "*most*" without any figures to back up their claim they usually have an agenda.

I could say "most developers don't even develop for PS4." and it would be a true statement. Since most developers don't develop for PS4 in the first place I don't see how they'd be happy/unhappy with PS4.5. Most developers quite honestly don't give a shit one way or another because it has no bearing on their business.

 

[NullPointer]

Needs based upon the limitations that are already against the current generation's consoles.

Like? Honestly don't know what you're getting at besides increased framerate and resolution. In terms of features there still has to be parity between the PS4 and NEO-mode.

 

[RadarScope1]

I can't figure out why the dumbest little things that are omitted from or not perfect in a game results in endless whining about "lazy devs" yet few people seem to be saying that in this case. My guess is because in the former case people are wanting more content for free or the same price and the latter case people think they are going to get burned on their $300 or $400 purchase so they are on the devs' side here. Gamers are nothing if not self-centered.

Where Colin's assumption (as well as yours and many others) is wrong is that consumers will be looking at this as a middle finger at all. People keep ignoring and hand waving it away, but cell phones, cars, and TVs are all real quantifiable examples of what is going on with Neo. We are no getting to a point with technology that having 6-8 years between generations is no longer sustainable in terms of developer needs and this is the result of that. People are having a hard time grasping this because they are only seeing that $400 they just spent somehow not mean anything anymore just because a new version of it has been released. Do the people who buy the new Galaxy S6 or iPhone 6 get pissed when the next iterations are released? No they aren't, because they realize that technology must progress forward.

So now we come to 3 years down the road and a improved version of the PS4 is released. It addresses those who are worried that their PS4s are going to become obsolete. It addresses those who are worried that the PS4 versions are going to look like total shit as soon as the Neo version is released. It addresses many things, yet people still show resistance and for the life of me, I really can't see why.

Great post. Consoles may not be phones, but I can't figure out how anyone cannot see that the broader course of consumer tech is influencing console and handheld cycles.

 

[TGO]

I never said that.

All I said the majority of tech has upgrades mid gen or whenever.

You don't have to compare it to phones you can compare it to tablets if you want.

Phones...Tablets....really?

just like your tv, ps4 will not stop functioning because new OLED model came out.

Phones are refreshed 6-12 months, not 24 months.

Neither did my PS2 stop functioning but that's not the point
Say PS4K comes out and you pick one up, then a month later news leaks about PS4K-s or something, is that still OK?
We know technology moves forward we've been doing it for years and people aren't really worried about PS4K, it's what happens after it can we look forward to another upgrade next year or in 2 years time?
and I did say yearly to 2 years refresh.

 

[Pez]

Man, this would be so annoying to support. Sony's QA process is already a technical mess. Adding another sku to test out is just another headache/pain in the ass.

 

[prag16]

Neo's beefier guts will allow devs to go even further than what is possible on the base PS4 (CPU being the only fly in the soup).

Farther in terms of resolution and framerate and perhaps some effects here or there. But Sony is apparently mandating full PS4 support, and no neo exclusives. How does this really "help" the developers? Maybe it helps Sony move hardware, but that's not really the topic of this thread.

 

[NullPointer]

Great post. Consoles may not be phones, but I can't figure out how anyone cannot see that the broader course of consumer tech is influencing console and handheld cycles.

That broader course of consumer tech is also influencing PCs to lock themselves down in app-centric, proprietary storefront driven models.

Don't ask the PC gamers to just shrug that aside either.

Console lifetimes and standardization are just as much a part of their DNA as openness and free-form expandability make PCs what they are.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

My AV system and TV is probably gonna last me twice as long then my PS4 or PS4K.
Only phones have such a refresh rate which ties into yearly or 2years contract which you pay for as part of your contract.
I can assure you if at the end of your contract your network provider said £800 please plus you're £50 monthly bill you wouldn't be upgrading so quickly.

Even if you buy a phone off contract, you're paying minimum $300 every 2-3 years to own a phone that isn't chugging on the latest OS.

That broader course of consumer tech is also influencing PCs to lock themselves down in app-centric, proprietary storefront driven models.

Don't ask the PC gamers to just shrug that aside either.

Console lifetimes and standardization are just as much a part of their DNA as PCs with their openness and free-form expandability.

But outside of enthusiast circles, the mobile market has changed the way people expect to upgrade technology, period. I tried to argue last year that Nintendo introducing a 540p (or even a 720p) handheld without multitouch in 2016 would get laughed out of the room. That's even more true now, what with their being $350 phones that can double as VR headsets.

Consumer electronics are depreciating purchase as soon as they leave the store, and no one cares. They just trade the old ones in towards a new one. This is mitigated by the consistent ecosystem that Apple pioneered, and is now shared with Android. MS is only now getting their shit together with Win 10. Hardware is now just a means to get specialized software in your hands.

 

[Daft Punk]

Like?

Really? Can you not look at games where 900p is becoming the norm, where variable framerates are used instead of locked, and various other sticking points that are a result of the hardware's limitation? I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than myself would be able to go in more depth, but considering several people including Queso, Matt, GopherD, etc. have all chimed in and said they have no clue why people are going crazy, I'm inclined to believe them a bit more over Colin's mysterious source.

 

[MogCakes]

He won't be the only one.

Seems like he's against the idea but isn't willing to not buy one in protest. His inner tech nerd is showing.

 

[xamidoxhua]

If you were told at E3 2013 that 3 years after launch they'll release an upgraded PS4, would you have waited and played PS3 games this whole time?

3 years is a long time ti miss out on the latest console games. I don't think this thing will cause much of a negative impact - it's a 'better' version of the same thing, they'll be selling both SKUs, and the 'hardcore' will all either upgrade or buy. I'm not phased, I actually get excited by new tech.

 

[prag16]

Really? Can you not look at games where 900p is becoming the norm, where variable framerates are used instead of locked, and various other sticking points that are a result of the hardware's limitation? I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than myself would be able to go in more depth, but considering several people including Queso, Matt, GopherD, etc. have all chimed in and said they have no clue why people are going crazy, I'm inclined to believe them a bit more over Colin's mysterious source.

Unless gimped PS4 versions that run poorly at low resolutions are going to become the norm and/or acceptable, again, how does this help the developers? If they still need to meet the same standards PS4 games are meetings (or almost meeting?) now, then all this extra headroom does is make things a little prettier.

 

[SolidSnakex]

How is that any different from any other consumer device? I know in gaming for consoles it has never been done, but I don't see how consumers that paid for something and it does what they paid for and it will continue to do so when a newer version comes out would be that upset. The PS4 will continue to work, it is not going to magically stop working because of a newer version.

This argument has been brought up a number of times. 10-12 years ago, I think this would of been something more of a challenge, but in this day and age where consumers are use to yearly refreshes for many consumer electronics, I don't see people, especially the general consumer to be upset about this. Yes, the folks that read and post in this forum are the hardcore and more vocal, but I doubt the every day consumer is going to upset about it.

But that's the answer. If I go buy a phone when it first comes out, then i'm doing so knowing that a year or so from that point there's going to be an upgraded version of that phone. So you can't really get upset and call bullshit on that if it's something they've always been doing. If i'm buying a console a console when it first comes out, i'm doing so with the expectation that the next version of said console won't be released until at least five years from that point (possibly a bit earlier if it tanks).

As far as games will still work, yes they'll work. But how they'll work is the concern. Hyrule Warriors technically works on the 3DS, assuming that you want to play a game at 20fps. There's little doubt that the PS4 is going to get the shaft in terms of performance sooner or later because of this iterative model.

 

[TGO]

I bought my TV 3 years ago for $800 but today I could get a 4K TV for less than that. Should I rant about it?

that sucks mate was that the only TV that existed at the time?
Funny, I got my TV last year but now I can get the 4k model for less.
I know what you're trying to get at but it's not the same.
Other devices how multiple models which come out every year you know this when you purchase the item, PS4 is a PS4 no matter where or when you got it, until now and there no guarantee it's the last model until PS5.

 

[Daft Punk]

Unless gimped PS4 versions that run poorly at low resolutions are going to become the norm and/or acceptable, again, how does this help the developers? If they still need to meet the same standards PS4 games are meetings (or almost meeting?) now, then all this extra headroom does is make things a little prettier.

It helps them by allowing developers to make use of that extra hardware to further their vision of the game. You're playing the "why make something no one really needs when we already have this" game and it's something that is prevalent in technology in general, not just video games. Unified architecture with more headroom will allow smoother transitions and in turn make games that already look great on PS4, really sing on Neo.

 

[StoopKid]

But that's the answer. If I go buy a phone when it first comes out, then i'm doing so knowing that a year or so from that point there's going to be an upgraded version of that phone. So you can't really get upset and call bullshit on that if it's something they've always been doing. If i'm buying a console a console when it first comes out, i'm doing so with the expectation that the next version of said console won't be released until at least five years from that point (possibly a bit earlier if it tanks).

As far as games will still work, yes they'll work. But how they'll work is the concern. Hyrule Warriors technically works on the 3DS, assuming that you want to play a game at 20fps. There's little doubt that the PS4 is going to get the shaft in terms of performance sooner or later because of this iterative model.

You have to start from somewhere.

I just don't get why it matters if it's 3 years or 5years?

 

[NullPointer]

I just don't get why it matters if it's 3 years or 5years?

OK then, release the NEO as the PS5 in 2018 with this iterative model.

 

[TGO]

Even if you buy a phone off contract, you're paying minimum $300 every 2-3 years to own a phone that isn't chugging on the latest OS.

The irony of that is my old phone from 2 years has received marshmallow 6.1 before my new phone and runs fine because the specs has hardly changed in the last 2 years.
Sure my new phone an octacore while my old one was quadcore but the ram is the same and everything else runs the same except my old phone is more up-to-date with its OS lol.

 

[farisr]

As far as games will still work, yes they'll work. But how they'll work is the concern. Hyrule Warriors technically works on the 3DS, assuming that you want to play a game at 20fps. There's little doubt that the PS4 is going to get the shaft in terms of performance sooner or later because of this iterative model.

Of course. One game release not working well from Nintendo is all the proof anyone needs, a system which nintendo explicitly made an exclusive game for as opposed to Sony planning for this system to have no exclusives.

Surely looking at the Xbox One continually getting decent ports while having weaker hardware and a much smaller marketshare than the ps4 is not a better thing to base a prediction off of. Nope. PS4, a market leading console, is going to get the shaft sooner or later. It's inevitable.

 

[nib95]

Did the bolded some how not exist before the PS4K rumors?

But at least before you knew everyone you were playing with on your platform was having near enough the exact same experience, at the same fidelity, performance et all, e.g. everyone on a level playing field. Now you're likely to get differing experiences depending on how much money you spent, something rather alien to console gaming. Who knows if that will transition to gameplay advantages as well, e.g. those playing on the Neo having performance advantages in online games, on top of graphical advantages too.

 

[ninjablade]

You have to start from somewhere.

I just don't get why it matters if it's 3 years or 5years?

Honestly don't understand ethere, and if you think about your ps4 will be worth a lot less in 5 years, especially if a slim version comes out. weather or not ps4k comes out, you just have a choice of upgrading earlier your not losing anything in terms of value.

 

[Dame]

Sentiments to the developers.Part of me is still in denial that Sony chose to make this ps4.5

Just what were they thinking? Is there any sound fiscal reason to do this despite history proving otherwise? Is there something we're obviously missing from a profits standpoint? So they think that this will generate profits like the slim does?

 

[Daft Punk]

OK then, release the NEO as the PS5 in 2018 with this iterative model.

That would piss off people far greater than Neo ever would and you know it.

 

[StoopKid]

OK then, release the NEO as the PS5 in 2018 with this iterative model.

I expect a larger jump with a new name.

This is more like a s model iPhone.

 

[NullPointer]

That would piss off people far greater than Neo ever would and you know it.

A more powerful backwards compatible PS5 in 2018 would piss more people off? Of course, by then the performance delta could be significantly increased so I'm not talking about keeping these specs.

I mean that telegraphing an iterative model makes more sense at the beginning of a generation than in the early heading to mid. This generation is still waiting on several of its heavy hitters to release.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

With the whole thing with devs hating this, do you think Sony just decided to make this updated console without talking to a ton of devs? From what Cerny said, they talked to a LOT of devs to help shape the PS4 and what those devs wanted out of a new console.

 

[StoopKid]

With the whole thing with devs hating this, do you think Sony just decided to make this updated console without talking to a ton of devs? From what Cerny said, they talked to a LOT of devs to help shape the PS4 and what those devs wanted out of a new console.

For all we know Sony did talk to devs.

 

[farisr]

With the whole thing with devs hating this, do you think Sony just decided to make this updated console without talking to a ton of devs? From what Cerny said, they talked to a LOT of devs to help shape the PS4 and what those devs wanted out of a new console.

There are devs on gaf who chimed in and said they're fine with it as well. It isn't a unanimous hate or dislike or anything like that. Sony probably did talk to a lot of devs. That's how the story got leaked in the first place. Rumblings of a ps4.5, ps4k. Because devs had heard about it directly from sony, and others devs heard it from their dev friends and were talking about it.