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COMICS! |OT| August 2015. Overwhelming.

Is Gambit back?

Like, user Gambit.

Nope.

attachment.php
 
Jesus tap-dancing Christ.

Because sometimes I love to live dangerously I decided to glance at the comments and, uh, look who I found.

John Ostrander said:
Interesting column, Mindy. Throughout my career, I've thought it was important to creatde diverse characters in my stories. And, yes, sometimes I questioned whether I could create authentic voices for minority characters (e.g. Amanda Waller, Mr. Terrific). I have to be able to do that or I'll only write those characters who are my race and my gender and that's not good. My approach has always been the same for every character, whatever the race, age, gender, nationality and so on. I find things in myself that are like the character that I'm writing. Yes, the details are going to be different. I can't speak to the specific life experiences. But, as a writer, I need to find the experiences within myself that correspond to them in some way. That's the job.

I'm not entirely sure what Ostrander is trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure I'm a bit disappointed by it.
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
Because sometimes I love to live dangerously I decided to glance at the comments and, uh, look who I found.



I'm not entirely sure what Ostrander is trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure I'm a bit disappointed by it.
He just says that its ok to tell strorys about non-white non-male non-straight characters when you are a white, straight male, and I honestly ask myself whats the big problem with this is, unless the characterzation is obiviously chliche or sexist or racist - Not directly aimed at you, more at all of this topic.


Because the funny thing is, a couple of days ago we shitted on Tom Breevort because he said that they dont have storys about LBGT characters because they have no LBGT artists who could make good storys with those - Which I think is ok, too. When you think you dont know enough about something you shouldnt write about it, because it could backfire horrible, espescially when its a sensitive political topic like this.
Before this, we shitted on Mark Waid, because he did exactly that what we now want from Breevort. A story about someone from a minority written by a non-minority. And I admit, I havent read Strange Fruit, but most what I got is that the critic doesnt come from stuff like that the story is racist, its that Waid is white.

We should decide about what we rage in the internet espescially when we scream in booth directions, because when we do this, we will get nothing in the end and this would be sad, because I enjoy these storys.
 

Weiss

Banned
Because sometimes I love to live dangerously I decided to glance at the comments and, uh, look who I found.



I'm not entirely sure what Ostrander is trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure I'm a bit disappointed by it.

I totally agree with him. Comics are predominately written by cis, straight white dudes who predominately write about cis, straight white dudes, so Ostrander makes it a point to include people who don't fit into those categories.
 
Because sometimes I love to live dangerously I decided to glance at the comments and, uh, look who I found.



I'm not entirely sure what Ostrander is trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure I'm a bit disappointed by it.

Still haven't gotten around to reading the article, but assuming he's not misrepresenting the content, I'm inclined to agree with him. You shouldn't have to be part of whatever group to write whatever group. The problem with Strange Fruit is that a) it sucks and b) it's a book specifically about racism in the deep south being worked on by a couple of white guys who had every opportunity in the world to bring in a black co-creator and didn't.

The "stop trying to write anything you're not" line of thinking is dumb.

I totally agree with him. Comics are predominately written by cis, straight white dudes who predominately write about cis, straight white dudes, so Ostrander makes it a point to include people who don't fit into those categories.

Also, this. The push for minority creators shouldn't preclude the existing establishment creating stories with solid minority representation.
 
He just says that its ok to tell strorys about non-white non-male non-straight characters when you are a white, straight male, and I honestly ask myself whats the big problem with this is, unless the characterzation is obiviously chliche or sexist or racist - Not directly aimed at you, more at all of this topic.


Because the funny thing is, a couple of days ago we shitted on Tom Breevort because he said that they dont have storys about LBGT characters because they have no LBGT artists who could make good storys with those - Which I think is ok, too. When you think you dont know enough about something you shouldnt write about it, because it could backfire horrible, espescially when its a sensitive political topic like this.
Before this, we shitted on Mark Waid, because he did exactly that what we now want from Breevort. A story about someone from a minority written by a non-minority. And I admit, I havent read Strange Fruit, but most what I got is that the critic doesnt come from stuff like that the story is racist, its that Waid is white.

We should decide about what we rage in the internet espescially when we scream in booth directions, because when we do this, we will get nothing in the end and this would be sad, because I enjoy these storys.

There's a massive gulf of difference between Al Ewing writing a great Blue Marvel and Mark Waid writing about the struggles of slaves in a high profile comic.

You're boiling it down to "White dude writing black characs" and that is not it in the slightest.

Bendis can write Luke Cage, or Alias, or some goyim thug, THAT is what Ostrander is saying and what we should all expect from a decent creator.

Unfortunately, this COMPLETELY UNRELATED argument has somehow barnacled onto a very legitimate critique of a white writer doing a bad job about portraying a subject. These were not just "black characters" that a good writer can breathe life into, this was handling a very complicated subject that many openly wonder if it wouldn't have been better handled by a black writer.

Character.

Subject.

Two different things.

Still haven't gotten around to reading the article, but assuming he's not misrepresenting the content, I'm inclined to agree with him. You shouldn't have to be part of whatever group to write whatever group. The problem with Strange Fruit is that a) it sucks and b) it's a book specifically about racism in the deep south being worked on by a couple of white guys who had every opportunity in the world to bring in a black co-creator and didn't.

The "stop trying to write anything you're not" line of thinking is dumb.

YESSSSSSS

HI5
HI5
HI5
HI5
HI5
HI5
 

Tizoc

Member
Still haven't gotten around to reading the article, but assuming he's not misrepresenting the content, I'm inclined to agree with him. You shouldn't have to be part of whatever group to write whatever group. The problem with Strange Fruit is that a) it sucks and b) it's a book specifically about racism in the deep south being worked on by a couple of white guys who had every opportunity in the world to bring in a black co-creator and didn't.

The "stop trying to write anything you're not" line of thinking is dumb.

Eh I like Strange Fruit cuz I like Waid's writing/work, and also because I like to assume the protagonist/main character is JCViewtiful.
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
Unfortunately, this COMPLETELY UNRELATED argument has somehow barnacled onto a very legitimate critique of a white writer doing a bad job about portraying a subject. These were not just "black characters" that a good writer can breathe life into, this was handling a very complicated subject that many openly wonder if it wouldn't have been better handled by a black writer.
OK, when he did a poor job on the subject, then the critique is of course ok.
The Waid is white argument has then somehow just overtook the loudest part of the discussion.
 
He just says that its ok to tell strorys about non-white non-male non-straight characters when you are a white, straight male, and I honestly ask myself whats the big problem with this is, unless the characterzation is obiviously chliche or sexist or racist - Not directly aimed at you, more at all of this topic.


Because the funny thing is, a couple of days ago we shitted on Tom Breevort because he said that they dont have storys about LBGT characters because they have no LBGT artists who could make good storys with those - Which I think is ok, too. When you think you dont know enough about something you shouldnt write about it, because it could backfire horrible, espescially when its a sensitive political topic like this.
Before this, we shitted on Mark Waid, because he did exactly that what we now want from Breevort. A story about someone from a minority written by a non-minority. And I admit, I havent read Strange Fruit, but most what I got is that the critic doesnt come from stuff like that the story is racist, its that Waid is white.

We should decide about what we rage in the internet espescially when we scream in booth directions, because when we do this, we will get nothing in the end and this would be sad, because I enjoy these storys.

OK, first off, she starts with one linked piece that's talking about the utter lack of creator diversity in All White-All Male ANAD Marvel and then jumps to a second piece that is quoted but not linked that's talks about diversity issues more broadly. This includes talking about the author's belief that one thing that is holding back comics is the lack of creator diversity. It also mentions Strange Fruit as an example of a misstep caused, in part, due to what I'll personally phrase as "white people trying to write a black story without the experience or understanding or frame to do so, resulting in, essentially, white people writing from a white perspective about black people".

I haven't read Strange Fruit either, but, like I mentioned above, it seemed like a big part of the issue people have taken with it was that, despite picking such a racially charged time and place as the setting, the creative team didn't seem prepared or able to handle it with the care and understanding it needed. Ostrander seems to, in part, at least be trying to say that you need to be able to find places to relate and understand who you're writing, but it still feels a bit dismissive the way he says everything and seems to be tangential to the discussion at hand.

Still haven't gotten around to reading the article, but assuming he's not misrepresenting the content, I'm inclined to agree with him. You shouldn't have to be part of whatever group to write whatever group. The problem with Strange Fruit is that a) it sucks and b) it's a book specifically about racism in the deep south being worked on by a couple of white guys who had every opportunity in the world to bring in a black co-creator and didn't.

The "stop trying to write anything you're not" line of thinking is dumb.

Also, this. The push for minority creators shouldn't preclude the existing establishment creating stories with solid minority representation.

Sure. I agree with all this pretty much 100%. It's just that, like I said above, I'm not sure Ostrander's statement really deals with the issue at hand.
 
really all I wanted was to goof on the woman whose reference point for contemporary pop culture was fucking Quantum Leap

Yeah, could've at least used Farscape for that super cool nerd cred.

OK, first off, she starts with one linked piece that's talking about the utter lack of creator diversity in All White-All Male ANAD Marvel and then jumps to a second piece that is quoted but not linked that's talks about diversity issues more broadly. This includes talking about the author's belief that one thing that is holding back comics is the lack of creator diversity. It also mentions Strange Fruit as an example of a misstep caused, in part, due to what I'll personally phrase as "white people trying to write a black story without the experience or understanding or frame to do so, resulting in, essentially, white people writing from a white perspective about black people".

I haven't read Strange Fruit either, but, like I mentioned above, it seemed like a big part of the issue people have taken with it was that, despite picking such a racially charged time and place as the setting, the creative team didn't seem prepared or able to handle it with the care and understanding it needed. Ostrander seems to, in part, at least be trying to say that you need to be able to find places to relate and understand who you're writing, but it still feels a bit dismissive the way he says everything and seems to be tangential to the discussion at hand.



Sure. I agree with all this pretty much 100%. It's just that, like I said above, I'm not sure Ostrander's statement really deals with the issue at hand.

Honestly, it just seems to me that he's commenting on the bit he feels he's got something to comment on; it's just a comment section, after all :p
 
Wrestling is one of those things I just don't 'get'. Can't like everything I suppose.

I think I get it. I'm not a fan, but I get it. I used to love it as a kid when I thought it was real, but that's about it.

I'm always a little surprised how many fans it still seems to have. I had a big wrestling phase in the mid to late 90s though. We'd always have people over for the big PPV events.

I've watched wrestling since the day my mam got satellite, and the best thing I can say about it is that the highs are higher than almost any other form of entertainment. When it clicks, there is very little to beat it, IMO.

These days, I get more entertainment talking about it with friends or internet peeps than actually watching it. I haven't watched Raw in months, I watch NXT and dip in and out of Lucha Underground and that does me. If there is something good, they will post the segment on their Facebook or YouTube anyway.

It bothers me a bit that I pay €13 a month to watch NXT and the odd bit of the archive when it's $10 everywhere else, but hey, I still pay €9 a month for Netflix and I have not watched a minute of that this year.
 
OK, first off, she starts with one linked piece that's talking about the utter lack of creator diversity in All White-All Male ANAD Marvel and then jumps to a second piece that is quoted but not linked that's talks about diversity issues more broadly. This includes talking about the author's belief that one thing that is holding back comics is the lack of creator diversity. It also mentions Strange Fruit as an example of a misstep caused, in part, due to what I'll personally phrase as "white people trying to write a black story without the experience or understanding or frame to do so, resulting in, essentially, white people writing from a white perspective about black people".

I haven't read Strange Fruit either, but, like I mentioned above, it seemed like a big part of the issue people have taken with it was that, despite picking such a racially charged time and place as the setting, the creative team didn't seem prepared or able to handle it with the care and understanding it needed. Ostrander seems to, in part, at least be trying to say that you need to be able to find places to relate and understand who you're writing, but it still feels a bit dismissive the way he says everything and seems to be tangential to the discussion at hand.

I agree mostly with what Ostrander is saying, but as a comment on the article it doesnt make too much sense. It seems out of place a bit?

That article is straight up trash. There's not one sentence written in that could have resulted from critical thought.

I *love* how she names black creators and thinks thats the end of her argument. Amazing. We should applaud Waid and Jones for their bravery in making Strange Fruit? Amazing.

I love her argument that says success is dependent on a lot of luck. Like, sorry black creators, there arent many of you in mainstream comics because youre just not lucky enough. Amazing.

No, Mindy Newell, I don't happen to think you shouldn't write about black women comics creators because you are white and jewish, it is because your writing is piss poor.

You know what, this article may not be trash. Maybe its satire. Like the greatest satire I've seen since A Modest Proposal.
 
I agree mostly with what Ostrander is saying, but as a comment on the article it doesnt make too much sense. It seems out of place a bit?

That article is straight up trash. There's not one sentence written in that could have resulted from critical thought.

I *love* how she names black creators and thinks thats the end of her argument. Amazing. We should applaud Waid and Jones for their bravery in making Strange Fruit? Amazing.

I love her argument that says success is dependent on a lot of luck. Like, sorry black creators, there arent many of you in mainstream comics because youre just not lucky enough. Amazing.

No, Mindy Newell, I don't happen to think you shouldn't write about black women comics creators because you are white and jewish, it is because your writing is piss poor.

You know what, this article may not be trash. Maybe its satire. Like the greatest satire I've seen since A Modest Proposal.

I suppose disappointed was the wrong angle for me to take on Ostrander, but the response was so odd given the context that it left me a bit perplexed and unsure what to think.

And if it's supposed to be satire then it does everything wrong; as such, I basically dismiss that idea. Tossing out the names of a bunch of black creators, offering to discuss with (potential?) creators that are black women, etc.
 
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