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COMICS! |OT| March 2013. Pinching Dr. Banner? Bad idea; Hulk pinches you back.
- Thread starter Spike Spiegel
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BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Do you disagree that in the MU "Mutant" is the same as "Monster"?
That was Remender's defense and I pretty much agree with him.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Gonna order it then. Thanks for the heads up.
Supermanisdead
Member
I don't think Professor X ever called for banning the word mutant, though. That's where my issue comes up. The whole "m-word" thing just came out of nowhere. They are mutants. Accepting that and identifying as a mutant has always been a pillar of X-Men comics. Alex saying "don't call me a mutant" as if it's a slur all of a sudden is disrespectful to a refined and established mutant culture. Mutie is the slur, mutant is what he is.
Yes, that's a perfectly valid belief to hold, but as I said above, the issue is with turning mutant into a bad word. They are different races/species/whatever and trying to erase the mutant identity does nobody any favours.
You're thinking this thread. Wallpapers are posted on the last couple of pages.
From Havok's speech, and I quote : "Having an X-Gene doesn't bond me to anyone. It doesn't define me. In fact, I see the very word "mutant" as divisive."
The fucked up implication being that the very idea of mutation is what's causing the division, and that for mutants and humans to peacefully coexist, mutants need to stop being mutants. Which gets more fucked up as you replace mutant with pretty much any minority ever, which is what most people will do because that's what mutants represent.
Auron_Kale
Member
It's here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=525018
Should be in the last 2 pages of the thread.
Wow. Thats a real tweet? Even putting the argument itself aside, approaching the criticism like that seems rather dumb.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
No. How could mutants ever stop being mutants? Shooting people with plasma beams is not the best way to do that.
The implication is that in the current Marvel Universe where Red Skull has coaxed humans to murder mutants because they're mutants, the word "mutant" is the same as "monster". So stop calling them mutants.
So the solution to prejudice against minorities is to appease the bigots?
Considering the fact that half the issue was a meditation on PR, it makes perfect sense that Alex would go for a "what makes us the same" approach. Scott's just drawn a gigantic line in the sand saying, "Beware my power, humans. Fuck with this bull and you'll get the horns." So there's a lot of tension there.
But the whole point of this team is to help mutant-human relations. It's literally called the "Unity Team." So for Alex to go up there and say, "Hey, we're different, but that doesn't automatically make this an us vs. you arrangement. We're all humans, and I'd like to focus on that rather than an inherently ugly word like 'mutant.' Let's be friends, y'all" - it makes a lot of sense.
If you want to compare to real-world minorities, there are plenty of words that were at one point mainstream terms and are now seen as derogatory and offensive ("colored," for example).
That being said, Remender's being kind of a tool about it. Just fucking talk to people, dude. To not even attempt to have a dialogue about it is lame.
But the whole point of this team is to help mutant-human relations. It's literally called the "Unity Team." So for Alex to go up there and say, "Hey, we're different, but that doesn't automatically make this an us vs. you arrangement. We're all humans, and I'd like to focus on that rather than an inherently ugly word like 'mutant.' Let's be friends, y'all" - it makes a lot of sense.
If you want to compare to real-world minorities, there are plenty of words that were at one point mainstream terms and are now seen as derogatory and offensive ("colored," for example).
That being said, Remender's being kind of a tool about it. Just fucking talk to people, dude. To not even attempt to have a dialogue about it is lame.
The labels may change, but you don't see said real-world minorities trying to abandon said minority identity altogether.
lies. why..if I had eyebeams, I'd...
so he just wishes the world would stop seeing race. Nice sentiment, I suppose. (fmtpo) Don't accept it, become blind to it. It's no longer relevant, it no longer exists.
that seems naive to me.
vv: well in the Marvel books, mutants have always tried to build common ground, and they go from accepted to feared and hated, to put in concentration camps depending on the storyline. They were set apart from humanity and given the designation. X-men and other heroes rise to the occasion to turn what was called a curse into a blessing, fighting to represent mutants as worthy and worthwhile. Not the monsters the humans had painted them all to be. So to see someone say "don't call me mutant", it's just awkward.
especially in this book, since this is the whole 'Mutants and Humans relating to each other' book.
and yeah, like how he tells the dude to bathe in piss because he feels uncomfortable that people are checking him on it.
Yeah, that's true. But from a strategic standpoint, considering their political and social position, isn't it smarter to try and build some common ground with regular people?
I can understand why that would be kind of insensitive for people who see this as a straight-line commentary on real-world minorities. I'm not really sure how to reconcile that, to be honest.
I guess I read into it more as "This is Alex attempting an olive branch" than "This is Alex trying to change the social identity of being a mutant."
I don't think he's trying to change his cultural identity. I think he's trying to make people realize that mutants are HUMAN BEINGS too and have equal wants and desires. The mutant community in the marvel universe has always been seen as "The Other" and he's taking steps to change that perception.
Of All Trades
Member
I think there's a strong argument that in 616 that mutant identity as race doesn't really exist for post-Hope mutants (as currently written) due to how they are emerging and at what age. The closest minority culture would be deaf culture and even that falls apart somewhat due to differing power sets.
Really, post-Phoenix the parallels to human society start to have real problems because of existential threats.
GrandHarrier
Member
You know, using mutants as allegories for minorities always struck me as strange when you have stuff like forcing mutations upon people via the Phoenix Force. I mean, you can't turn people into a Jew, or an African, or an Asian. And even if you could, should they suddenly like, celebrate their new minority status? 
Having powers isn't really something that makes you a minority. It makes you have a skill set that other people may or may not have.
#AlexAndWandaAreRight
Having powers isn't really something that makes you a minority. It makes you have a skill set that other people may or may not have. #AlexAndWandaAreRight
Manmademan
Member
You know, using mutants as allegories for minorities always struck me as strange when you have stuff like forcing mutations upon people via the Phoenix Force. I mean, you can't turn people into a Jew, or an African, or an Asian. And even if you could, should they suddenly like, celebrate their new minority status?
#AlexAndWandaAreRight
The phoenix force didn't "force mutations", they were already there, but had been suppressed by wanda.
since marvel's position is that mutants are humans with a specific gene who may or may not have powers (some mutants have no powers, and just look strange- see most morlocks) they are minorities by the common definition. Plenty of people "find out" they are minorities all the time, though usually these are people with 1/2 or 1/4 ancestry they weren't aware of. Also consider the case of homosexuals, who may or may not discover their sexual orientation until adulthood or middle age.
Finally, there are those who gain powers through artificial genetic manipulation aren't mutants either- those are mutates. "mutant" is exclusively an inherited condition.
this happens quite frequently, actually.
GrandHarrier
Member
EXPLAIN SPIDER GIRL THEN.
Manmademan
Member
Nothing to explain. Her parents aren't mutants, but she is. Mutates have had mutant children before, and quite powerful ones.
Franklin Richards and the fantastic four are better examples.
edit: maybe I should clarify what I mean by inherited- the "X gene" came about from the celestials messing around with human genetics sometime in prehistory. everyone (potentially) carries it, but it's not active. Children born with active "x" genes (or dominant x genes, whatever) are classified as mutants. the parents can both be human, both be mutants, mutant AND human, mutate and human, etc. it's random.
GrandHarrier
Member
We need more Sentinel's in this thread. Mutie sympathizers everywhere.
Manmademan
Member
My mutant power is to attract trolls to threads. As you can see, it's working at full strength. Thank you phoenix force!
So then it was only children that had their x gene activated?
Well I don't think we've seen any adults who have been turned into mutants yet.
Manmademan
Member
no, the x gene tends to be dormant until puberty or so. (some have it activated at birth or infancy like sabretooth or nightcrawler, but this is rare)
I don't know of anyone who was depowered getting RE-powered from the phoenix (jubilee and blob are the only two I can think of at the moment), but the "new" mutants popping up (at least in uncanny) are all around the teenage years when mutant powers tend to first manifest.
so it looks like the phoenix removed whatever influence was preventing "new" mutants from popping up, and they're doing so normally again.
BuddyJoeHooker
Member
All-New X-Men #10 Preview:
But this has been a really interesting topic to read about, I would like to see a "On the Bullhorn" segment on both of the Summers brothers view points.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
omfg lol
X-Men Legacy credit page
I think the inker on Hyat's stuff got way better with this issue
And more Alphone plz forever
X-Men Legacy credit page
I think the inker on Hyat's stuff got way better with this issue
And more Alphone plz forever
DyslexicAlucard
Member
So I was at my local nerd store perusing their comic book section. They're 6 for $5, so I was just kinda looking for series that I'd be interested in, and that are sequential.
I found Mage: The Hero Defined issues #0-12, with issues #0 and #1 being signed by Matt Wagner. I also got Mage: The Hero Discovered issues #14 and #15, with #15 being signed by Wagner as well.
I got them because they were sequential and looked okay, but are these potentially worth anything? Surely more than the <$1 I paid for each, lol.
I found Mage: The Hero Defined issues #0-12, with issues #0 and #1 being signed by Matt Wagner. I also got Mage: The Hero Discovered issues #14 and #15, with #15 being signed by Wagner as well.
I got them because they were sequential and looked okay, but are these potentially worth anything? Surely more than the <$1 I paid for each, lol.
I dunno about worth...but that was a great series that I wish could be completed. If they're not worth much now, they'll surely be worth something later? Being signed and all, that has to make a difference, even if the collection market is saturated with mint condition books.
I used to feel like this too but after a while I realized that in a way it gives the discrimination motif even more legitimacy. Prejudice is always dumb as fuck and based on irrational and arbitrary reasons. It makes no sense in real life either, so people hating on those who simply "have a mutation" and are no different than other people with powers isn't totally off.
GhostRidah
Member
Cant wait for more East of West, seems like its going to be a epic, hope im not wrong. Plus im a sucker for the four horsemen.
I don't really prefer one over the other. I don't like buying hardcover trades because they're more expensive but the bigger hardcover collections are really nice and are usually a better value.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
I haven't heard a compelling one. I'm mad that the only DC book I collect in trades is softcover, All Star Western, which should be a hardcover IMO.
Auron_Kale
Member
I generally get what's available, so if a series is only HC I'll get it or will grab a softcover if the HC is out of print. Then there are Absolute/Ultimate editions, which I have a few of because I really wanted a nice presentation.
I like softcover for individual volumes due to price, but if you're doing an omnibus then it needs to be hardcover.
omnibus volumes are an eyesore.
Pack more than 16-20 issues in a book and it becomes too cumbersome to read normally.
I think the best hardcover comic collections ive seen by domestic companies are probably the Image Hardcover books. Usually 12 or so issues, no glued spines, and packed with extra material most of the time.
Pack more than 16-20 issues in a book and it becomes too cumbersome to read normally.
I think the best hardcover comic collections ive seen by domestic companies are probably the Image Hardcover books. Usually 12 or so issues, no glued spines, and packed with extra material most of the time.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Love The Invinicble Ultimate Collections from multi media superstar Robert Kirkman and the Powers hardcovers by comics superstar Brian Michael Bendis.
I've liked the X-Men off and on for about 25 years, but have always thought that the analogy between the plight of mutants in the comics and the plight of minorities in the real world is a bit juvenile.
In the real world if someone dislikes another race because of their minor differences it's because the person doing the disliking is ignorant and morally repugnant.
On the other hand I think it would be a very natural, and indeed logical, thing to be afraid of people that had the power to literally destroy a planet or incinerate a town. Fear of that much power seems more analogous to fear of nuclear weapons than it does to fear of minorities and yet in so many comics and movies those afraid of the X-Men are portrayed as close minded bigots.
At the same time, not every mutant has that sort of power. I mean look at guys like Beast, he's not really a walking nuke. Most mutants don't have insane powers that could end a town in an instant, from what I can tell most of them are sort of like Beast and just look different.
That's a perfectly good point and I should have mentioned that in my original post. Some mutants would not be anything to fear, such as Bishop, Broo, Kittie Pryde or Beast, but it seems like most of the notable ones would:
Cyclops, Wolverine, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Storm, Jean Grey, Rogue would all be valid people to fear. I just get the sense that in their desire to push the analogy with minorities the writers often miss the fact that it's not insane or backwards to be afraid of someone that shoots a laser from his eyes or someone that can throw lightning bolts around.
Wolverine's only valid to fear because of his personality and the claws (which were put in and not a part of his mutation). His actual mutant power isn't very destructive.
I could see people fearing Kitty because of her power if she wasn't such an obviously good person. Every assassin in the world is probably jealous of her power.
I think the problem you're having is that the main characters of an X-men book need these sort of powers to make it a compelling read. You wouldn't be able to tell half the stories they've told if they all had more mundane powers, but they do remind us every now and again these awesome powers are pretty rare.
This too.
Supermanisdead
Member
Well the case has become a bit muddled since M-Day. But before then there was tens of millions of mutants who's powers were something along the lines of 3 faces (Ugly John) or blue skin (Jazz). They had no offensive powers, nor were they a threat. Of course the big superhero books obviously had the badasses and dangerous powers - and the major villains had these powers too, but in the greater mutant world, these powers were pretty rare. Which is why of the tens of millions of mutants, less than 400 were ever enrolled in the Xavier School
Fear of Emma Frost is one thing - because she was/is a morally grey telepath, but outright hatred of your son/daughter because she grew horns when she was 13 is another. It's just a matter of perspective. Morrison's New X-Men and PAD's X-Factor touched on these issues.
This is how I've always felt.
You recoil in horror at Kitty Pryde or Prof. X, but fucking Thor is a-ok?
X-Men only works in broad strokes. It works with something like Mutanttown. It doesn't work when you have cats unironically saying "m-word" and evoking real life epithets. It's a useful metaphor - and one that differentiates them from other superheroes - but it breaks down when you try to make sense of it in real life terms.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
That's always being the strange disconnect between "well, we love The Thing big lovable rock man, but fuck Jubilee, mutie/gene-joke/freak, etc"
This m-word stuff is dumb as hell, though. Remender, stahp.
This m-word stuff is dumb as hell, though. Remender, stahp.
I think it has more to do with the fact that at any point a pre-teen can just grow powers randomly and with no warning, which is frightening.
Plus I point you all to spider-man, nobody like him and when they do they all quickly go back to hating him again. So it's not just the mutants people don't like.
Supermanisdead
Member
Well, the main fear is that humans can become mutants at puberty without any wild exposure/triggers. "What if my son/daughter is suddenly different?" The Fantastic Four went to space and got hit by a once-in-a-lifetime energy shower, Captain America had a top secret drug, Iron Man invented a suit of armor, etc. Mutants are feared because anyone can become one at any moment. I'll agree it's still a bit muddy simply because we're dealing with cape comics and 70 years of continuity, but the general idea is that anyone can become a mutant in the blink of an eye, living an ordinary life.
I hate to appear to be spamming this thread, but I enjoy discussing X-Men and mutant politics :/
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