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[Nudull]

What's funny to me about the whole "Why should Barbara be crying"/"Would someone make a cover of a male superhero crying?" criticism is that stoicism is a fully masculine ideal. So basically these people who are presumably fighting for women are saying that women should be more like men? Seems kind of backwards.

If anything, it could easily be argued that the stigma against men showing emotion is the real issue. Stoicism is a silly masculine ideal.

Hey, here's an idea: let's not "gender" emotions and ideals and let people be who they want to be. What a concept!

Honestly? That's business.

Edit: I'll even expand on this to say that they know who they're marketing toward. Look at all the 80's and 90's franchises that have been revived. I ordered a god-damned She-Ra statue for $80. Ain't no kids got $80. This stuff is all targeted at adults who remember this stuff from when they were kids.

Yep, comics are for nostalgic dudes I guess, screw anyone who'd want to be interested in comics and help revitalize and make progress out of a industry still struggling with issues.

Their IP, their rules?

No company should be doing that kind of shit, especially those allegedly trying to attract women and younger audiences.

 

[Coriolanus]

No company should be doing that kind of shit, especially those allegedly trying to attract women and younger audiences.

Worked pretty well for E.L. James.

 

[Freezasaurus]

Yep, comics are for nostalgic dudes I guess, screw anyone who'd want to be interested in comics and help revitalize and make progress out of a industry still struggling with issues.

I think it's a bit unfair to place the blame solely on the comics industry, here. This is something that's present in pretty much every industry. Even in society as a whole. It has to do with perceptions and commonly-accepted norms going back hundreds and hundreds of years, and changes of this magnitude are never fast, or easy. It's a big step that people are now open to dialogue concerning these issues.

 

[Nudull]

Worked pretty well for E.L. James.

Dude...don't even.

I think it's a bit unfair to place the blame solely on the comics industry, here. This is something that's present in pretty much every industry. Even in society as a whole. It has to do with perceptions and commonly-accepted norms going back hundreds and hundreds of years, and changes of this magnitude are never fast, or easy. It's a big step that people are now open to dialogue concerning these issues.

Of course progress isn't an overnight thing, still doesn't mean we should dismiss the things that we could change now.

 

[Coriolanus]

Dude...don't even.

No no, by all means, keep telling us how you came to know what women want and how best to approach them, monolithic block that they are.

 

[Nudull]

No no, by all means, keep telling us how you came to know what women want and how best to approach them, monolithic block that they are.

I don't claim to be an expert. Women are not a hive mind. They have individual interests, ideals and desires, as they are human. Some women may disagree with me on certain points, and that's fine.

A good rule of thumb, however, might be to be tactful and not treat female characters as cheap props and devices for men.

 

[my name is ed]

The Killing Joke was a bad comic. Probably the worst thing Moore has written. Callbacks to it should be treated like callbacks to identity crisis are treated.

I think the drawing itself is excellent tho.I wonder what reception would be like if it was a random female character (like a random hostage) and if that would be different from a random male character. I think a lot of the negative reaction lies in bringing back events from the killing joke and applying them to the Current run which is wildly different in tone. It kinda makes it seem mean spirited. Like no matter what, the character can't escape the the events of that comic. She gets to be the forever victim so that we got an emotional response from a male character. It makes it seem like the male suffering is what matters and not the female character's suffering. At least within killing Joke.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Man I can't believe I duped myself into buying all of Future End. What a waste of everything that is good in the world. Just a whole otta nothing you would've thought it was done by Snyder protégés.....

 

[Freezasaurus]

The Killing Joke was a bad comic. Probably the worst thing Moore has written.

NOPE. Lost Girls says hi.

 

[Gambit 1138]

Speaking of Krypto. This is the best Krypto story ever

I remember when that issue was solicited and then got cancelled. So I guess they eventually did release it?

 

[MikeDip]

NOPE. Lost Girls says hi.

I want to read this, what's wrong with it?

 

[ElNarez]

I want to read this, what's wrong with it?

It's Moore's Weird Sex Fanfic of children's fairy tales.

 

[Serpentine]

The Killing Joke was a bad comic. Probably the worst thing Moore has written. Callbacks to it should be treated like callbacks to identity crisis are treated.

I think the drawing itself is excellent tho.I wonder what reception would be like if it was a random female character (like a random hostage) and if that would be different from a random male character. I think a lot of the negative reaction lies in bringing back events from the killing joke and applying them to the Current run which is wildly different in tone. It kinda makes it seem mean spirited. Like no matter what, the character can't escape the the events of that comic. She gets to be the forever victim so that we got an emotional response from a male character. It makes it seem like the male suffering is what matters and not the female character's suffering. At least within killing Joke.

That... actually makes a lot of sense to me, since I honestly didn't really understand the criticism at first. Hm.

 

[Freezasaurus]

I want to read this, what's wrong with it?

Ummm..... Everything. The most obvious being the art, which ranges from mediocre to amateurish and just plain bad. I've seen badly-drawn stuff that was still drawn better than some of these panels. Google Image Search some pages and see for yourself. Sometimes it seems the artist (his wife!) has no real understanding of anatomy.

And this:

It's Moore's Weird Sex Fanfic of children's fairy tales.

Even as erotica goes it's pretty unfappable-to. I got it at a decent discount from IST for $33 or so, and I still regret it.

 

[ElNarez]

ed gets it but also: I'd much rather put the entire industry on blast for not having made something as important in Batgirl's story as The Killing Joke since than give shit to Rafael Albuquerque for alluding to it in pretty much as tasteful a way you could allude to it on a cover

 

[frye]

NOPE. Lost Girls says hi.

yeah, nah. A lot of his work for hire Image stuff is much worse.

ed gets it but also: I'd much rather put the entire industry on blast for not having made something as important in Batgirl's story as The Killing Joke since than give shit to Rafael Albuquerque for alluding to it in pretty much as tasteful a way you could allude to it on a cover

Maybe you're saying "Batgirl" instead of "Barbara Gordon" for this exact reason but you don't think that her transition into Oracle was that? Like yeah, you can't really point to a singular work like you can TKJ and obviously you don't get Oracle without TKJ in the first place but it feels like the work Ostrander et al. did at least give an alternative to "well here's this again guys!" for a minute there.

e: man i can't spell today

VVV fair enough!

 

[ElNarez]

It's both, really, I feel like neither Batgirl nor Babara Gordon has had a real big moment like TKJ, and I'm also mad that said big moment is just fodder for Batman's story. And now I'm mad because of how unlikely it is we'll ever get that big Oracle story.

It's all just a big sad mess that everyone at DC should be put on blast for, not just the latest guy to allude to it.

 

[Mindwipe]

I was just about to buy Volume 3 of East of West at full price.

Why is Test Pattern 50p more expensive than the trades if contains?

The backlog gets worse.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

I don't claim to be an expert. Women are not a hive mind. They have individual interests, ideals and desires, as they are human. Some women may disagree with me on certain points, and that's fine.

A good rule of thumb, however, might be to be tactful and not treat female characters as cheap props and devices for men.

Sounds good but my concern is that it's so subjective that You could take any bad thing to happen to a certain demographic of characters and argue it's done as cheap props and devices for the main characters. In the end every character serves the plot. And if you place too many conditions you either Mary sue them or get to the point that said demographic is replaced by white males for the plot device to avoid controversies. Which then creates less inclusion/diversity and I certainly don't want that. You see a lot of this in commercials where the only people that can be the puchline or act stupid, etc is a white male.

For example
- did you have an issue in how Gordon is treated in TKJ? He's as much a "cheap prop" as Babs
- did you have issues in how Gail used Babs mom vs the joker & her brother?
- How about the death of Gwen Stacy?
- etc

 

[ElNarez]

Sounds good but my concern is that it's so subjective that You could take any bad thing to happen to a certain demographic of characters and argue it's done as cheap props and devices for the main characters. In the end every character serves the plot. And if you place too many conditions you either Mary sue them or get to the point that said demographic is replaced by white males for the plot device to avoid controversies. Which then creates less inclusion/diversity and I certainly don't want that. You see a lot of this in commercials where the only people that can be the puchline or act stupid, etc is a white male.

For example
- did you have an issue in how Gordon is treated in TKJ? He's as much a "cheap prop" as Babs
- did you have issues in how Gail used Babs mom vs the joker & her brother?
- How about the death of Gwen Stacy?
- etc

Dude. No.

There's a fucking history of women characters only existing to die a brutal, violent death in order to give motivation to a male main character. So much so that Women In Refrigerators is a thing (that Gail Simone codified, incidentally). It's not just in comics, but fiction at large, and it's fucked up because it's one of the few parts of stories women have constistently taken part in.

To answer at least two of your questions : Barbara's as much a prop to Gordon as she is to Batman, the bad shit happening to her is all part of Joker's plot to test him, with the idea that he's cool because he won't let that get in the way of his duty to the law and doing things by the book.

And, as it turns out, Gwen Stacy is also on the WiR list, because her death was there to advance Spidey's story.

Like, I don't feel this is the part that's worth arguing about.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Man, Dan Jurgens completely took all that was good about the Aquaman and The Others and made it about as interesting as the manufacturing toilet paper. I just imagine him standing behind Didio with Didio's face in fear like that controversial Batgirl cover.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Dude. No.

There's a fucking history of women characters only existing to die a brutal, violent death in order to give motivation to a male main character. So much so that Women In Refrigerators is a thing (that Gail Simone codified, incidentally). It's not just in comics, but fiction at large, and it's fucked up because it's one of the few parts of stories women have constistently taken part in.

To answer at least two of your questions : Barbara's as much a prop to Gordon as she is to Batman, the bad shit happening to her is all part of Joker's plot to test him, with the idea that he's cool because he won't let that get in the way of his duty to the law and doing things by the book.

And, as it turns out, Gwen Stacy is also on the WiR list, because her death was there to advance Spidey's story.

Like, I don't feel this is the part that's worth arguing about.

Please Stop talking down to me. I know exactly the issue that is being discussed and am no stranger to the whole "women in refrigerators" discussions. Why do you you think I used a Gail Simone in the examples? (Which you ignored). And guess what...death of any character or bad treatment can be construed as advancing a MCs story. so my point is you have to be careful not to swing too far the other way, well intentioned as it may be, because it can have consequences you might not want from a diveristy/equality standpoint

 

[Nudull]

Please Stop talking down to me. I know exactly the issue that is being discussed and am no stranger to the whole "women in refrigerators" discussions. Why do you you think I used a Gail Simone in the examples? (Which you ignored). And guess what...death of any character or bad treatment can be construed as advancing a MCs story. so my point is you have to be careful not to swing too far the other way, well intentioned as it may be, because it can have consequences you might not want from a diveristy/equality standpoint

May I ask, why do women specifically have to deal with being sexualized and treated like shit 24/7? Are there damn good reasons? Might there be alternatives to give a character grief without having to inflict sacrifice, torture, or sexual assault on other characters with little for the victims to gain as characters? Why do women in particular have to go through all of this in service of a male character?

Again, the fact that bad things happens to characters is not the problem. There is a well-documented history of women (hell, minorities in general) in fiction being treated like shit, either for the male lead or just out of pure shock value or grossness. Writers have been goddamn extreme in this regard, and it's only been in recent decades where we've started to gain any sense of progress.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

May I ask, why do women specifically have to deal with being sexualized and treated like shit 24/7? Are there damn good reasons? Might there be alternatives to give a character grief without having to inflict sacrifice, torture, or sexual assault on other characters with little for the victims to gain as characters? Why do women in particular have to go through all of this in service of a male character?

Again, the fact that bad things happens to characters is not the problem. There is a well-documented history of women (hell, minorities in general) in fiction being treated like shit, either for the male lead or just out of pure shock value or grossness. Writers have been goddamn extreme in this regard, and it's only been in recent decades where we've started to gain any sense of progress.

Id say it's because they're side characters and side characters are used to serve and flesh out the MC. Look at all the shit that they've done to Foggy Nelson. You balance out the scales of the MC and the trickle down happens from there. You have a female MC then it's more likely a male side character is formed as a friend, companion, love interest, etc. And since they're not the hero they're going to have bad things happen to them that the MC must react to.

A more recent example I read on MU is the events happening to Black Widows lawyer friend person.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

It's Moore's Weird Sex Fanfic of children's fairy tales.

On top of that, isn't it underage porn?

 

[KoruptData]

Here is another Joker variant.

Mostly male heroes suffering at the hands of the Joker. See the terror is some of their faces? The point of these drawings is to represent the Joker. Now some covers went with funny and goofy and that's fine. That is a part of Jokers character. What about the Joker that shoots a mother holding her baby at point blank range? Blows up a school filled with children? Does what he did to Barbara and Gordon?

He is pure evil. He is bad and he laughs about it. This is a character, where an actor who played him, Heath Ledger, stated that it affected his mental state playing him. This is the type of character that our heroes need because pure evil does exist out in the real world. We should be happy there is a few covers out there that represent this side of the Joker. Especially the Batgirl one.

 

[Zombine]

So we're still talking about Batgirl? Ok:

I would have to say that without a doubt, Batgirl: Year One is in my top 5 DC comics of all time. The story requires no prior knowledge of the character, and it is genuinely one of the most beautifully drawn and colored book I have ever seen. BG:Y1 was Marvel Now before Marvel Now. It was a risk when everything during this time was fairly serious, but this book was given the greenlight to just be fun. Rodriguez really blows the colors out of the ballpark my dudes:

Look at how that city glows, and the contrast between the deep blacks of her outfit, and the blue cowl. It is some of the best work I have seen in my entire life. The book has some awesome surprises and cameos as well. There really is something for everyone here.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

So we're still talking about Batgirl? Ok:


http://www.tradereadingorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Batgirl-Year-One-For-Crying-Out-Loud.jpg/img]

I would have to say that without a doubt, Batgirl: Year One is in my top 5 DC comics of all time. The story requires no prior knowledge of the character, and it is genuinely one of the most beautifully drawn and colored book I have ever seen. BG:Y1 was Marvel Now before Marvel Now. It was a risk when everything during this time was fairly serious, but this book was given the greenlight to just be [i]fun[/i]. Rodriguez really blows the colors out of the ballpark my dudes:

[img]http://41.media.tumblr.com/2m8BXUfriqmoj9diz7SWFdaXo1_500.jpg/img]

Look at how that city glows, and the contrast between the deep blacks of her outfit, and the blue cowl. It is some of the best work I have seen in my entire life. The book has some awesome surprises and cameos as well. There really is something for everyone here.[/QUOTE]
Yea this mini is awesome. If people haven't read it you're missing out. And DCS recently re released it in a new trade with the Robin year one

 

[Zombine]

Yea this mini is awesome. If people haven't read it you're missing out. And DCS recently re released it in a new trade with the Robin year one

Which is another awesome book, but I think Batgirl is even better. It's a shame that the cover for that is so busy, and it didn't even get a HC release.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Which is another awesome book, but I think Batgirl is even better. It's a shame that the cover for that is so busy, and it didn't even get a HC release.

Definitely agree batgirl is much much stronger of the two

Also. It's Saturday morning and I'm already caught up on my weekly TV and comic backlogs! *gasp* i might actually read from my backlog and play a videogame. It's been too long since that happened.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Here is another Joker variant.

Mostly male heroes suffering at the hands of the Joker. See the terror is some of their faces? The point of these drawings is to represent the Joker. Now some covers went with funny and goofy and that's fine. That is a part of Jokers character. What about the Joker that shoots a mother holding her baby at point blank range? Blows up a school filled with children? Does what he did to Barbara and Gordon?

He is pure evil. He is bad and he laughs about it. This is a character, where an actor who played him, Heath Ledger, stated that it affected his mental state playing him. This is the type of character that our heroes need because pure evil does exist out in the real world. We should be happy there is a few covers out there that represent this side of the Joker. Especially the Batgirl one.

Why would they out Superman in such a compromising position? Don't they know what he represents?

 

[ThyMusicMan]

He did Mesmo Delivery, which is just this incredibly drawn Twilight Zone-esque comic:

This looks pretty awesome.

-

Come on guys, Phil Noto doing art on a on-going Star Wars comic! This is the best news ever.

 

[Zombine]

Definitely agree batgirl is much much stronger of the two

Also. It's Saturday morning and I'm already caught up on my weekly TV and comic backlogs! *gasp* i might actually read from my backlog and play a videogame. It's been too long since that happened.

Who needs to play games when you can buy lots of them instead.

Also...I got caught up with CW's The Flash and holy crap is it fun.

 

[KoruptData]

Why would they out Superman in such a compromising position? Don't they know what he represents?

Exactly! But this is Joker variant month so we are showing Joker in the dominating scenes.

To add to the Batgirl cover, he is not looking at her, she is not looking at him. I imagine the Joker walked her into a room full of horrors that would elicit that type of behavior from Babs at first. I imagine that horror would soon turn to anger and we would get that usual fight from her.

 

[tim1138]

Who needs to play games when you can buy lots of them instead.

Also...I got caught up with CW's The Flash and holy crap is it fun.

The Flash is such a fun show, it makes up for DC continually giving the book god awful creative teams.

 

[KoruptData]

The Flash is such a fun show, it makes up for DC continually giving the book god awful creative teams.

It is basically another Geoff Johns run. He is heaviy involved it seems.

 

[tim1138]

It's finally happening, the relaunch of Manhattan Projects will finally be here on Wednesday!
The long national nightmare is almost over!

 

[Zombine]

The Flash is such a fun show, it makes up for DC continually giving the book god awful creative teams.

Look at how much the landscape has changed on that network, and with TV in general. Comic Book shows used to try their best to completely remove themselves from the silly costumes and comic-esque villains and problems, but the success of films such as The Dark Knight and Avengers, and the success of The Walking Dead and Arrow on TV has opened an avenue where Warner Bros feels comfortable giving us shows like The Flash, and introducing characrers like

Spoiler

Gorilla

fucking

Spoiler

Grodd.

You would have never seen that in the early 00s on Smallville.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

The Flash is such a fun show, it makes up for DC continually giving the book god awful creative teams.

It is basically another Geoff Johns run. He is heaviy involved it seems.

its an awesome show that doesn't even try to hide its a surrogate superman. Like Arrow is a great batman show in everything but the name. And their crossover was the greatest thing ever

I wish we could get another waid / johns tier run on Flash but at least i've got those two lengthy eras to fall back to

Speaking of which another reminder to buy said runs in the CMX Flash sale!

 

[tim1138]

Look at how much the landscape has changed on that network, and with TV in general. Comic Book shows used to try their best to completely remove themselves from the silly costumes and comic-esque villains and problems, but the success of films such as The Dark Knight and Avengers, and the success of The Walking Dead and Arrow on TV has opened an avenue where Warner Bros feels comfortable giving us shows like The Flash, and introducing characrers like

Spoiler

Gorilla

fucking

Spoiler

Grodd.

You would have never seen that in the early 00s on Smallville.

I dunno how many times now during the Flash I've turned to my wife and said, "I can't believe we're getting a live action version of x character on a TV show, but not only that they pulled it off on a freaking CW budget!" Now that Parks and Rec is over, the Flash is easily my favorite show on television.

 

[tim1138]

And look at the Reverse Flash, the suit looks amazing.

 

[KoruptData]

I feel Arrow has been terrible this year.

 

[Zombine]

I dunno how many times now during the Flash I've turned to my wife and said, "I can't believe we're getting a live action version of x character on a TV show, but not only that they pulled it off on a freaking CW budget!" Now that Parks and Rec is over, the Flash is easily my favorite show on television.

If this was on Smallville,

Spoiler

Grodd

would have been on the Halloween episode, and it would have been a cheerleader (Who was hot by 00s standards, but "eh" by today's), who was dressed in a cheap

Spoiler

Gorilla

suit (Without the head, of course. Masks are embarassing and beneath WB) and the story would be about how she stole Lana's homework, and Clark has to solve it with his abs.

Then that fake U2 cover band's only hit would play.

 

[Messi]

So we're still talking about Batgirl? Ok:

I would have to say that without a doubt, Batgirl: Year One is in my top 5 DC comics of all time. The story requires no prior knowledge of the character, and it is genuinely one of the most beautifully drawn and colored book I have ever seen. BG:Y1 was Marvel Now before Marvel Now. It was a risk when everything during this time was fairly serious, but this book was given the greenlight to just be fun. Rodriguez really blows the colors out of the ballpark my dudes:

Look at how that city glows, and the contrast between the deep blacks of her outfit, and the blue cowl. It is some of the best work I have seen in my entire life. The book has some awesome surprises and cameos as well. There really is something for everyone here.

What I would give for a print of that second image

 

[tim1138]

I feel Arrow has been terrible this year.

This season of Arrow had been bad, they're trying way to hard to turn Ollie into Batman and it's annoying. Grounded social justice Ollie from the comics is much more interesting to me than brooding faux Batman Ollie on Arrow.

If this was on Smallville,

Spoiler

Grodd

would have been on the Halloween episode, and it would have been a cheerleader (Who was hot by 00s standards, but "eh" by today's), who was dressed in a cheap

Spoiler

Gorilla

suit(without the head, of course. Masks are embarassing and beneath WB) and the story would be about how she stole Lana's homework, and Clark has to solve it with his abs.

That or it would have been a bully with a funny name who got the nickname

Spoiler

Gorilla

because he was a big oaf. I do give Smallville props for using Stargirl, but that was all Geoff Johns.

And back to the Flash, let's not discount the fact that they are already doing time travel stuff in the first season.

 

[Zombine]

What I would give for a print of that second image

I want this:

 

[KoruptData]

This season of Arrow had been bad, they're trying way to hard to turn Ollie into Batman and it's annoying. Grounded social justice Ollie from the comics is much more interesting to me than brooding faux Batman Ollie on Arrow.

.

Yes, "Why so serious" Ollie is annoying. Felicity cries too much. Laurel is the most embarrassing hero I have ever seen. Her Black Canary with stupid wig and stupid leather outfit looks ridiculous. She looks like a twig that will break with little force. Roy is dry as can be. Diggle had more character when he was a body guard. The League of Assissins acts like a larping group. Malcolm is completely monotone. Thea is somewhat interesting.

I still watch it every week.

 

[Zombine]

I still watch it every week.

Messi?

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Look at how much the landscape has changed on that network, and with TV in general. Comic Book shows used to try their best to completely remove themselves from the silly costumes and comic-esque villains and problems, but the success of films such as The Dark Knight and Avengers, and the success of The Walking Dead and Arrow on TV has opened an avenue where Warner Bros feels comfortable giving us shows like The Flash, and introducing characrers like

Spoiler

Gorilla

fucking

Spoiler

Grodd.

You would have never seen that in the early 00s on Smallville.

Man, animation gets no respect.

 

[Kipp]

So we're still talking about Batgirl? Ok:

I would have to say that without a doubt, Batgirl: Year One is in my top 5 DC comics of all time. The story requires no prior knowledge of the character, and it is genuinely one of the most beautifully drawn and colored book I have ever seen. BG:Y1 was Marvel Now before Marvel Now. It was a risk when everything during this time was fairly serious, but this book was given the greenlight to just be fun. Rodriguez really blows the colors out of the ballpark my dudes:

Look at how that city glows, and the contrast between the deep blacks of her outfit, and the blue cowl. It is some of the best work I have seen in my entire life. The book has some awesome surprises and cameos as well. There really is something for everyone here.

I still need to read that so badly. Both that and Robin: Year One seem like exactly my kind of comic.
That Marcos Martin art looks top-tier, as always.

Speaking of Marcos Martin, Private Eye hasn't wrapped up yet, has it? Also, I really, really hope they release a hardcover of that.