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COMICS! |OT| March 2015. Warning: can be hazardous to your financial health.

We still gripping the torches and pitchforks over people calling out a bad cover?
Please don't do that. I hate when both sides of arguments dangle out these type of coments that seem to have the sole purpose of drawing people offsides. And you might not like the cover because of the tone or the reference callback, but I can't see how you could say it's a bad cover. In a way it was too effective in what it set out to accomplish. It's creepy, disturbing, and it grabs your attention more than 99% of the covers out there. If it was a main cover then I'd say it's a bad fit. Given its a variant That made it so far as to be solicited then I would have liked it to stay. Hell Id be find with Twitter campaigns to buy the cover they wanted to let their voice be heard of what they want to see.

I just kind of wonder where all this uproar, social media outcry and interaction is heading. Maybe it creates more good then harm. Or maybe the next thing that gets taken down is something you don't agree with. It's art, so it's all subjective. I'd love for more inclusion and diversity but I don't know if this is the right way to go about it. I also wonder what affect it could have on the types of characters, stories, themes we time goes on. I don't see anything really now, but These ripples will have affects. I hope they're for the best, but I'm skeptical.
 
i dunno if you caught the stuff that went down with that webcomic (mahou something or other?) last week but this feels weirdly similar, down to the reactions to the artist's reaction
Yea I saw that, this definitely reminded me of that. though the thing there was one of the artists on that was apparently leaving some real sus comments that fueled some probably-justified criticism. But at the end of the day the cancellation of that webcomic was 100% up to the creators. Like, you could just listen to the criticism and keep it in mind next time. Or you could not listen at all. It's all up to the artist.

But then you have the writer tweeting that he and his team have been calling for the cover to be pulled since before it was released.

Stewart said the team didn't officially approve of it, or even see it beforehand, which is not the same as calling for it to be pulled. They just didn't like it.
 

Sandfox

Member
Yea I saw that, this definitely reminded me of that. though the thing there was one of the artists on that was apparently leaving some real sus comments that fueled some probably-justified criticism. But at the end of the day the cancellation of that webcomic was 100% up to the creators. Like, you could just listen to the criticism and keep it in mind next time. Or you could not listen at all. It's all up to the artist.



Stewart said the team didn't officially approve of it, or even see it beforehand, which is not the same as calling for it to be pulled. They just didn't like it.

I guess I got things mixed up then, my bad.
 

besada

Banned
In other news apparently Erik Larson has left Twitter.
He got into a slap fight with Greg Rucka the other day. Someone dropped the bomb that his only contribution to comics was a guy with a fin on his head.

So far I've seen Joe Hill, Mark Waid, and Kurt Busiek come out in favor of Rafa pulling the cover. I imagine there will be a split between artists and writers. Writers want everything to fit the tone of their story and artists are used to doing one-off stuff without context.

By the by, I haven't expressed an opinion on it so far, so here goes:

I think it was an amazing looking cover, but given the very determined and intentional retooling of Batgirl into a teen-oriented book designed to be inclusive of women readers, it was probably the wrong variant for this book. A variant cover is, ultimately, supposed to sell the book it covers, and that cover is selling a Batgirl that doesn't currently exist.

Hopefully they hang onto it and including it as a variant of the next run of Killing Joke.
 

Owzers

Member
i stopped reading iZombie after the second trade despite owning the next two. I remember one of the volumes ending on a bit of a lull and then i just stopped....i need to get back to it, very fun book overall. I'm going to give the tv show a try for sure.


I think the problem with internet pressure is that it works, and in working it further emboldens people to complain because it's rewarded, and it's not just for the sake of complaining but to get something to change. #CancelColbert.
 
I think the problem with internet pressure is that it works, and in working it further emboldens people to complain because it's rewarded, and it's not just for the sake of complaining but to get something to change. #CancelColbert.

The problem is that people don't seem to be able to help themselves anymore. They're incapable of changing the channel, or simply not buying the thing that offends them. If they don't like it, then no one can have it. And that's what I find infuriating about the whole situation.

I'm going to buy a copy of The Killing Joke tomorrow in protest of this travesty.
 

gabbo

Member
Cameron Stewart draws some of the best women. I wish he was drawing and ongoing female cape book (Zatanna pls).

I love his warm up drawings he posts on twitter

10986286_1580656558887568_2025407729_n.jpg


He did this awesome Southern Cross one:

11033068_1422241098070703_583015540_n.jpg


Was I the only one who read Southern Cross?

Has Southern crossed ended? I just had the first issue in a pull list a week or two ago.
Was really good.
 
He got into a slap fight with Greg Rucka the other day. Someone dropped the bomb that his only contribution to comics was a guy with a fin on his head.

So far I've seen Joe Hill, Mark Waid, and Kurt Busiek come out in favor of Rafa pulling the cover. I imagine there will be a split between artists and writers. Writers want everything to fit the tone of their story and artists are used to doing one-off stuff without context.

By the by, I haven't expressed an opinion on it so far, so here goes:

I think it was an amazing looking cover, but given the very determined and intentional retooling of Batgirl into a teen-oriented book designed to be inclusive of women readers, it was probably the wrong variant for this book. A variant cover is, ultimately, supposed to sell the book it covers, and that cover is selling a Batgirl that doesn't currently exist.

Hopefully they hang onto it and including it as a variant of the next run of Killing Joke.
That's a bit reductive of Larsons contributions. And wether you like his dragon work or not I applaud his dedication and commitment. Over 200 independent comics made. He's the only one of the OG image crew still doing his art and writing on his book. But he said dumb things on Twitter, angered the beehive and paid the price.

And that's an interesting observation about the writer and artist take on this topic. Also how funny would it be if Cameron had all these issues in the can that revolved around TKJ. Didn't he already kind of step into unintended controversy with one of the villians?
 

besada

Banned
That's a bit reductive of Larsons contributions. And wether you like his dragon work or not I applaud his dedication and commitment. Over 200 independent comics made. He's the only one of the OG image crew still doing his art and writing on his book. But he said dumb things on Twitter, angered the beehive and paid the price.

And that's an interesting observation about the writer and artist take on this topic.
I've personally never been a fan of his art or writing, but I do have to credit him with a stronger work ethic than most of the other OG Image guys. And no, the comment wasn't particularly fair, but it was pretty funny in the context of the slap fight on twitter.
 
I've personally never been a fan of his art or writing, but I do have to credit him with a stronger work ethic than most of the other OG Image guys. And no, the comment wasn't particularly fair, but it was pretty funny in the context of the slap fight on twitter.
Yea I love Rucka, Waid, and Simone's work but they can be a bit overbearing on Twitter. I have no idea when Gail gets her work done. I'm glad they are passionate about issues in and outside of comics but it's soooo many tweets.

I like Snyders smattering of tweets on things or Bendis who just posts random comic art. Haha
 
Big post incoming!
Sometimes, though, that's the right thing to do.

I agree. Just thinking about it, if you're DC, you put out a cover that seems to alienate a portion of the fanbase you are trying to build. It is alright to go ahead and pull it. The creator are the creators. Let them define their book. The cover was kind of antithetical to the tone of the book, so of course people were upset.

I think Albuquerque made the best piece he could when he got the chance to do the cover. I think the editor or whoever is in charge of getting variants in order probably thought this piece was going to be something some fans could want. It turned out not to be the case. Its OK. We learn as an industry as we change.

I think it's absolutely commendable of them to step up their game like that. Personally, I feel that the best part is that none of it really feels like it is pandering.
Honestly, reading that made me very hopeful and interested in what DC will be doing. Im just supersurprised its the same people who brought us the new 52. Not that I think the new 52 was all that bad or anything but the direction DC back then took was very different from what its doing now. Im happy its like this. There's a huge infusion of new talent planned for DC. Its crazy. I dont know how it'll pan out but they definitely have my attention more than before.

Sorry, I got a bit defensive cuz I like the guy's work a lot but not for the reason you think. I'm actually not much of a fan of his Danger Girl 90s stuff but more of what he does now. I like his super stylish colorful work he puts in. I follow him on instagram and that's where I notice female fans liking his stuff and on twitter. Again I'm not saying all females think alike and I know he is purely fanservice sometimes. I'm fully aware his art get's torn apart on tumblr sites like escher girl. But I strongly disagree on his stuff being wank material for teenage boys. Have you seen his Star Wars variant?
Alright, I was being harsh when I said his stuff is for 13 year olds. Ill take it back. Assuming the first result on google from typing 'J Scott Campbell Star Wars' is the cover you are referring to, I think its OK. He's a professional artist, so its gonna be of professional quality. I think plenty of the other covers were better. Noto's sketch for the new Star Wars movie is, in my eyes, significantly better, just to give you an idea of what I think is quality.

He's never really evolved as an artist for me and his work is pretty much what someone will point at to say American comics are backward in their depictment of women.

So... what's the big deal with that? If an artist finds a niche that has an audience more power to them. Your complaints could be leveled against virtually every artist in some fashion. Adam Hughes covers are basically hot girl worship and yet those get lauded.
Yeah but Hughes operates at a much higher technical level. If an artist can get money, sure, power to them, but I don't have to like what they do or revere their work. Personally, I place artists who continue to evolve over artists who make their money doing the same thing over and over. That doesn't really make my opinion more valid than someone who doesnt mind it. But as an artist, its pretty easy to tell you which kind I respect more.

Afterlife With Archie Vol. 1 free on Comixology with code JUGHEAD.

https://www.comixology.com/redeem
muchas gracias amigo

So what do you guys propose? That he stops doing what he's good at and dedicate his career exclusively to Amanda Waller redesigns? Jesus fuck, people will complain about anything.
Dying at the bolded haha
About that cover tho, I just want to know who colored it. They did a really good job. I don't see a colorist signature. Time to do some digging.

i mean, we got his 2014 calendar because my wife wanted it, and the manager of our comic shop is a chick and she bought like 5 copies of it for whatever reason

so in my anecdote, 100% of his fans are women.

Well, you know way more fans of his than I do. I only ever knew one.

*Is a professional working artist, with multiple degrees in the field, gets left out of artist list by brother from another mother*


It feels bad man.
Now that I think about it, I dont think ever seen your work. You've mentioned it and some of the commercials you've worked on (iirc) but not actual artwork. You should post it.
 

besada

Banned
I feel terrible for Rafael Albuquerque, by the way. He got hosed. I imagine he took a lot of crap for something that editorial oversaw and approved. But editorial is always letting the creators take the heat for their shitty decisions.
 
Yea I saw that, this definitely reminded me of that. though the thing there was one of the artists on that was apparently leaving some real sus comments that fueled some probably-justified criticism. But at the end of the day the cancellation of that webcomic was 100% up to the creators. Like, you could just listen to the criticism and keep it in mind next time. Or you could not listen at all. It's all up to the artist.
I only heard a little about this webcomic. Can yall elaborate?

Thank God that horrible image was striken from the covers where children or offended people may see it. Welp, back to reading Batman!
Come on, man. You're totally missing the point and trying to reduce the people who had an issue with the cover into caricatures. Not cool.
 

Cade

Member
Shit, I missed afterlife with archie free? That's what I get for getting my funko punisher, I guess. Everything in balance. Sacrifice.
 
I feel terrible for Rafael Albuquerque, by the way. He got hosed. I imagine he took a lot of crap for something that editorial oversaw and approved. But editorial is always letting the creators take the heat for their shitty decisions.

Like I said earlier in the thread, he was just practicing his craft, making a cover he thought people would enjoy. He didn't know he was going to start a cataclysmic shit-storm, and he wouldn't have even done the cover in the first place if he knew where it would lead. But I feel that by pulling the cover, he conceded a battle in a very important war.
 

besada

Banned
Like I said earlier in the thread, he was just practicing his craft, making a cover he thought people would enjoy. He didn't know he was going to start a cataclysmic shit-storm, and he wouldn't have even done the cover in the first place if he knew where it would lead. But I feel that by pulling the cover, he conceded a battle in a very important war.
I think people who look at this as a war are pretty misguided.
 

Tizoc

Member
Someone shed more light on the whole Erik Larsen thing please?
EDIT: Wait is it that Killing Joke inspired cover? What's so bad about it, I just saw it as a shoutout to that book, and besides, many comic covers don't depict in their issue what is on them.

Afterlife With Archie Vol. 1 free on Comixology with code JUGHEAD.

https://www.comixology.com/redeem

Shit, how long is this gonna last? I won't be home for another 10ish hours =X
 

besada

Banned
Agreed.
This isn't a war. This is the comics apocalypse.
No, the comics apocalypse is to keep doing the same old thing while sales plummet. If you love super hero comics, then you should be pleased at the influx of new readers, because otherwise the grave beckons.
 
I think people who look at this as a war are pretty misguided.

Perhaps I didn't word the last sentence quite right, but look at it this way - A select group of people were offended by this cover, right? So instead of simply boycotting it, there was an outcry so intense that it ended up getting pulled by the artist. I think it's pretty upsetting that now no one will be able to buy it because some people didn't like it for this or that reason. What about the next time a controversial cover gets some attention? And where does it stop? This is almost an issue of art censorship. The fact that the artist voluntarily pulled the work is the only thing preventing it from being one. Maybe with enough pressure, DC themselves would have caved. I simply don't like for my purchasing options (within reason, of course) to be limited by what other people find acceptable.
 
One of the odd things I can't help but notice is that the four Superman titles are already involved in some kind of crossover called "Truth". Is that really the best way to do a soft relaunch?
Yeah I'm kinda disappointed by that. I've only been following the main Superman book and I really don't want to buy three others. I'm probably gonna wait for impressions on the new writer anyways.
 

besada

Banned
Perhaps I didn't word the last sentence quite right, but look at it this way - A select group of people were offended by this cover, right? So instead of simply boycotting it, there was an outcry so intense that it ended up getting pulled by the artist. I think it's pretty upsetting that now no one will be able to buy it because some people didn't like it for this or that reason. What about the next time a controversial cover gets some attention? And where does it stop? This is almost an issue of art censorship. The fact that the artist voluntarily pulled the work is the only thing preventing it from being one. Maybe with enough pressure, DC themselves would have caved. I simply don't like for my purchasing options (within reason, of course) to be limited by what other people find acceptable.
It's an issue of an artist and a company responding to the people who actually read the book in question, but mostly it's an issue of DC editorial being the dumbest fucks ever to run a comic company. They've have repeatedly fucked around with Batgirl, in particular, from Gail Simone's firing, to this. They are wildly out of touch with the people actually buying this particular book, because they're mostly old men. And there's nothing wrong with being an old man -- I'm one. But when you're attempting to bring a fresh readership into comics, and you hire people to do that, you maybe should check with them before you throw a call back to a completely different style on their book. That cover is straight out of the grimdark 90's. Which is fine, but it is a complete mismatch with the book they're actually selling now. Current Batgirl is bright and shiny, not grimdark. Not Raphael Albuquerque's fault, but DC editorial's fault.

As for being able to buy the cover, I suspect it will show up somewhere soon, either at cons or as part of some other book, where it fits better.
 
It's an issue of an artist and a company responding to the people who actually read the book in question, but mostly it's an issue of DC editorial being the dumbest fucks ever to run a comic company. They've have repeatedly fucked around with Batgirl, in particular, from Gail Simone's firing, to this. They are wildly out of touch with the people actually buying this particular book, because they're mostly old men. And there's nothing wrong with being an old man -- I'm one. But when you're attempting to bring a fresh readership into comics, and you hire people to do that, you maybe should check with them before you throw a call back to a completely different style on their book. That cover is straight out of the grimdark 90's. Which is fine, but it is a complete mismatch with the book they're actually selling now. Current Batgirl is bright and shiny, not grimdark. Not Raphael Albuquerque's fault, but DC editorial's fault.

As for being able to buy the cover, I suspect it will show up somewhere soon, either at cons or as part of some other book, where it fits better.
Then just don't buy the damned cover. Show you outnumber the peple who buy the cover.

There. Problem solved. Better than forming twitter lynch mobs and harassing and bullying creators.

Anybody should be ashamed of how they handled it. You know how these progressive female designs got started? By Image sales. By money. By cash.

With the current trend in comics, creators are going to say fuck DC/Marvel and just write Image or drop comics all together. I mean how many of the elite comic book creators could easily say fuck comics and get tv pilots done?
 
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