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[GrandHarrier]

I have a hard time believing DC is going to get significantly better so long as Didio and Johns are holding the reins, personally. And Warner cares more about churning out properties that can be made into TV shows and movies than it does about making good comics.

That strikes me as more of a Marvel thing than a DC thing. Almost everything Marvel is doing at the moment revolves directly around their movies, how they can tie into their movies, almost at the expense of everything else. And I'd hardley call the current DC movie roster (dat timetable) or their TV shows (which have been almost universally good, imo) a churn. Outside of a brief Green Arrow hiccup their comics haven't been slavishly trying to align with their movies or TV shows, like a certain other publishing group.

The problem was that it was actively turning off the exact demo that the book is targeted at. A variant cover that's a whimsical take on a grimdark character doesn't upset anyone, but if you do a cover of Ms. Marvel murdering a puppy, it's going to upset the young female readership they're actually selling the book to. Again, I feel terrible for Rafael, as DC editorial basically stuck him in the cross hairs, but Stewart is trying to make a book for young women readers, one that's pretty light hearted, and he doesn't want them rolling into a comic store seeing this and maybe making the erroneous conclusion that their book has been replaced by something grim and ugly.

Couple things here: I was under the impression it was just a comic book meant to be broadly appealing, not specifically to a single demographic. But also it seems strange to stereotype the young female demo as one that would be universally upset by the cover. Unless we're saying that no women enjoy "grim dark" and no men enjoy "light hearted and cheerful".

Out of curiosity have you been reading the series? Because it's actually been pretty dark in its own way. Barbara has been systematically broken down by her current nemesis. Her life is in a sort of shambles, she's not being written as "Barbara" really, and shes done some particularly fucked up stuff, like beating the shit out of criminals who've done nothing but taunt her (first issue, kicks a dude in the face so hard she knocks out teeth for petty theft and harsh language who didn't attack her, I was like Barbara what are you doing), destroyed the livelihood of a family restraunt trying to stop a drunk driver, amongst other things. It's not physical body horror, perhaps, but certainly psychological.

 

[Sandfox]

That strikes me as more of a Marvel thing than a DC thing. Almost everything Marvel is doing at the moment revolves directly around their movies, how they can tie into their movies, almost at the expense of everything else. And I'd hardley call the current DC movie roster (dat timetable) or their TV shows (which have been almost universally good, imo) a churn. Outside of a brief Green Arrow hiccup their comics haven't been slavishly trying to align with their movies or TV shows, like a certain other publishing group.



Couple things here: I was under the impression it was just a comic book meant to be broadly appealing, not specifically to a single demographic. But also it seems strange to stereotype the young female demo as one that would be universally upset by the cover. Unless we're saying that no women enjoy "grim dark" and no men enjoy "light hearted and cheerful".

Out of curiosity have you been reading the series? Because it's actually been pretty dark in its own way. Barbara has been systematically broken down by her current nemesis. Her life is in a sort of shambles, she's done some particularly fucked up stuff, like beating the shit out of criminals who've done nothing but taunt her (first issue, kicks a dude in the face so hard she knocks out teeth for petty theft and harsh language who didn't attack her), destroyed the livelihood of a family restraunt trying to stop a drunk driver, amongst other things. It's not physical body horror, perhaps, but certainly psychological.

DC is already adding the characters and similar costumes as the ones in the TV shows and its probably going to get crazier when the movies start coming out.

 

[GrandHarrier]

DC is already adding the characters and similar costumes as the ones in the TV shows and its probably going to get crazier when the movies start coming out.

Outside of the short stint of Green Arrow (written by the Arrow guy), what do you mean?

 

[BuddyJoeHooker]

DC Comics' Full June 2015 Solicitations

This Green Arrow Archer's Quest Deluxe book looks interesting. Is this Brad Meltzer story pretty good?

 

[SoilBreak]

This Green Arrow Archer's Quest Deluxe book looks interesting. Is this Brad Meltzer story pretty good?

Thought it was good follow-up after Kevin Smith's run.

 

[ThyMusicMan]

In other sad cover based news...
CHRIS SAMNEE ‏@ChrisSamnee 30s30 seconds ago

Just turned in final tweaks to my last DAREDEVIL cover.

When is their last issue? Whos taking over

-

Also.. These statues are pretty cool. Love the Batman black and whites.

 

[ElNarez]

Couple things here: I was under the impression it was just a comic book meant to be broadly appealing, not specifically to a single demographic. But also it seems strange to stereotype the young female demo as one that would be universally upset by the cover. Unless we're saying that no women enjoy "grim dark" and no men enjoy "light hearted and cheerful".

Out of curiosity have you been reading the series? Because it's actually been pretty dark in its own way. Barbara has been systematically broken down by her current nemesis. Her life is in a sort of shambles, she's not being written as "Barbara" really, and shes done some particularly fucked up stuff, like beating the shit out of criminals who've done nothing but taunt her (first issue, kicks a dude in the face so hard she knocks out teeth for petty theft and harsh language who didn't attack her, I was like Barbara what are you doing), destroyed the livelihood of a family restraunt trying to stop a drunk driver, amongst other things. It's not physical body horror, perhaps, but certainly psychological.

Yeah, but it's not incredibly traumatic violent and sexual assault, like what happened in The Killing Joke, and which the cover was evoking. There's a line, and that was crossing it. And it's harmful, whether it's as in issue of women representation in comics, or, as a very real PTSD trigger for abuse victims. That's why it was necessary to talk about it, and why it being cancelled is a good thing. DC is trying to build goodwill, and you don't do that with that cover.

 

[Tizoc]

Hi guys!

*found y'all secret base!!!!* >

I just started to pick up Crossed yesterday Does that count? ..... Uh.... Can I post here or do I have to accumulate enough cool creds first?

Exhibit A for your consideration for my posting rights: I own very old X-Men comics And .... uh, Excalibur ! ^____^

I dislike Crossed, but if you like it cool.

Excalibur's good, long as it is the Alan Davis issues.

 

[BuddyJoeHooker]

Thought it was good follow-up after Kevin Smith's run.

So it's the next arc after that Absolute Green Arrow coming out, they should have stuck to one format.

-__-

 

[Shin Johnpv]

LOL

UGH more reason to drop Batgirl till he's done writing it. He just comes off as a spoiled whiney little brat to me.

 

[Mistouze]

OT comic book threads... Heh.

 

[Freezasaurus]

Yeah, but it's not incredibly traumatic violent and sexual assault, like what happened in The Killing Joke, and which the cover was evoking. There's a line, and that was crossing it. And it's harmful, whether it's as in issue of women representation in comics, or, as a very real PTSD trigger for abuse victims. That's why it was necessary to talk about it, and why it being cancelled is a good thing. DC is trying to build goodwill, and you don't do that with that cover.

Okay, but The Killing Joke itself, the work being referenced by the pulled cover is still available, and is still a big a seller. So what was accomplished here? Is it not a factor since so many people have already read it?

UGH more reason to drop Batgirl till he's done writing it. He just comes off as a spoiled whiney little brat to me.

With silly hair!

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

thankie for welcome, besada and serpentine

I dislike Crossed, but if you like it cool.

Excalibur's good, long as it is the Alan Davis issues.

i donno if i like it or not yet.... i've just gotten to chapter 5.

YESH IT BE ALAN DAVIS ONES <3 i love love love it. Such trippy volumes <3

 

[Tyrant Rave]

Hello new friends

When is their last issue? Whos taking over

I think the issue before Secret Wars is their last one. I dunno who is taking over.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Now that I think about it, I dont think ever seen your work. You've mentioned it and some of the commercials you've worked on (iirc) but not actual artwork. You should post it.

artofjohn.com has some of my fine art stuff and a semi recent demo reel of my animation on it.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Yeah, but it's not incredibly traumatic violent and sexual assault, like what happened in The Killing Joke, and which the cover was evoking. There's a line, and that was crossing it. And it's harmful, whether it's as in issue of women representation in comics, or, as a very real PTSD trigger for abuse victims. That's why it was necessary to talk about it, and why it being cancelled is a good thing. DC is trying to build goodwill, and you don't do that with that cover.

Any art being censored because it might hurt some people's feelings, is NEVER a good thing. IMHO.

 

[Zombine]

Hi guys!

*found y'all secret base!!!!* >

I just started to pick up Crossed yesterday Does that count? ..... Uh.... Can I post here or do I have to accumulate enough cool creds first?

Exhibit A for your consideration for my posting rights: I own very old X-Men comics And .... uh, Excalibur ! ^____^

Read X-Static! Do it! You'll love U-Go Girl:

But yeah...I'm done with that Batgirl thing. Not gonna lie, but everyone here (including myself) start to act no better than CBR.

 

[ElNarez]

Any art being censored because it might hurt some people's feelings, is NEVER a good thing. IMHO.

It's not being censored, the artist requested it to be pulled and DC complied.

This is literally an artist doing what he thinks is best, which is what you say you want. It's a good thing.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

It's not being censored, the artist requested it to be pulled and DC complied.

This is literally an artist doing what he thinks is best, which is what you say you want. It's a good thing.

No. The only reason he pulled it was because of a very vocal minority making a stink about it. Its effectively the same thing as the artwork being censored. The proper good thing here would have been to use the uproar it created to a positive talk about the issues at hand. Instead of censoring the piece and not publishing it.

This isn't really what he thinks is best, if it was he wouldn't have created the piece in the first place. No this is about a very whiny, very vocal minority forcing their ideals, feelings, and wishes on everyone else.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Gross

I think you misunderstand me. I meant that I wouldn't really care whether or not they use the cover. I personally consider the cover a non-issue. I also consider the pulling of the cover a non-issue.

I think people who look at this as a war are pretty misguided.

No, the comics apocalypse is to keep doing the same old thing while sales plummet. If you love super hero comics, then you should be pleased at the influx of new readers, because otherwise the grave beckons.

Thank you, Besada. Playing too conservatively can be lethal in the long run.

 

[MC Safety]

It's not being censored, the artist requested it to be pulled and DC complied.

This is literally an artist doing what he thinks is best, which is what you say you want. It's a good thing.

You want comics as a mature, adult medium. You certainly pay big boy prices for a single issue. Inside, you want realistic depictions of sexuality, gender, and violence.

But the Joker doing Joker stuff is somehow crossing the line.

 

[tim1138]

thankie for welcome, besada and serpentine



i donno if i like it or not yet.... i've just gotten to chapter 5.

YESH IT BE ALAN DAVIS ONES <3 i love love love it. Such trippy volumes <3

Another Alan Davis Excalibur fan? Hell yes!

 

[ElNarez]

No. The only reason he pulled it was because of a very vocal minority making a stink about it. Its effectively the same thing as the artwork being censored. The proper good thing here would have been to use the uproar it created to a positive talk about the issues at hand. Instead of censoring the piece and not publishing it.

This isn't really what he thinks is best, if it was he wouldn't have created the piece in the first place. No this is about a very whiny, very vocal minority forcing their ideals, feelings, and wishes on everyone else.

Two things:
1) Again, people talking about the cover and the artist of that cover responding to it is not censorship, no matter how much you repeat it
2) Have you even read Albuquerque's statement?

My Batgirl variant cover artwork was designed to pay homage to a comic that I really admire, and I know is a favorite of many readers. 'The Killing Joke' is part of Batgirl’s canon and artistically, I couldn't avoid portraying the traumatic relationship between Barbara Gordon and the Joker.

For me, it was just a creepy cover that brought up something from the character’s past that I was able to interpret artistically. But it has become clear, that for others, it touched a very important nerve. I respect these opinions and, despite whether the discussion is right or wrong, no opinion should be discredited.

My intention was never to hurt or upset anyone through my art. For that reason, I have recommended to DC that the variant cover be pulled. I'm incredibly pleased that DC Comics is listening to my concerns and will not be publishing the cover art in June as previously announced.

With all due respect,

Rafa

If you're gonna say the hurt people feel when being reminded of the violent sexual assault of a character they like is somehow not legitimate, I dunno what to tell you, man.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

You want comics as a mature, adult medium. You certainly pay big boy prices for a single issue. Inside, you want realistic depictions of sexuality, gender, and violence.

But the Joker doing Joker stuff is somehow crossing the line.

I'd imagine that Modern Family doing a slasher movie episode and playing it completely straight would elicit a bit of an uproar.

It's hardly a one-to-one case, I'll admit, but that seems to be the general idea.

 

[ElNarez]

You want comics as a mature, adult medium. You certainly pay big boy prices for a single issue. Inside, you want realistic depictions of sexuality, gender, and violence.

But the Joker doing Joker stuff is somehow crossing the line.

Yeah but what if maturity was being able to look at something like The Killing Joke, and being able to say "Actually, yeah, fuck this trash, and fuck the whole idea of women as disposable misery machines who can get beaten up and tortured as much as you'd like depending on how big you want the stakes to be for your big manly man showdown".

 

[MC Safety]

Yeah but what if maturity was being able to look at something like The Killing Joke, and being able to say "Actually, yeah, fuck this trash, and fuck the whole idea of women as disposable misery machines who can get beaten up and tortured as much as you'd like depending on how big you want the stakes to be for your big manly man showdown".

You can't have it both ways.

If you want your adult themes, you can't bark when you get adult themes that don't particularly agree with your worldview.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Two things:
1) Again, people talking about the cover and the artist of that cover responding to it is not censorship, no matter how much you repeat it
2) Have you even read Albuquerque's statement?

When the people bitching about it lead to the cover being pulled, yes that is censorship. No matter how you try to re-word or dance around it, that's censorship.

His statement is typical canned bs, that any time some one does something that the twitterverse doesn't like and has to apologize for uses.

If you're gonna say the hurt people feel when being reminded of the violent sexual assault of a character they like is somehow not legitimate, I dunno what to tell you, man.

They can feel hurt all they want, that doesn't mean they get to dictate what is and is not created/published. That's not how things work. Just because a few people are hurt by an image doesn't mean the vast majority who aren't don't get to experience it. Unless you're also ok with them stopping production on any Call of Duty games, or GTA or any violent video game as well.

The proper response to this cover shouldn't have been to stop it from coming out, but using it as a spring board to open discussions about ways to stop sexual assault, and things like that.

Instead of using every image or thing you don't agree with and going waaahhhhh I don't like it so no one can have it, use it to create the positive change in the world you want.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

You can't have it both ways.

If you want your adult themes, you can't bark when you get adult themes you don't want.

People have every right to criticize themes they don't agree with. Just because a message or theme is adult doesn't mean it's right or in good taste.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Yeah but what if maturity was being able to look at something like The Killing Joke, and being able to say "Actually, yeah, fuck this trash, and fuck the whole idea of women as disposable misery machines who can get beaten up and tortured as much as you'd like depending on how big you want the stakes to be for your big manly man showdown".

By dismissing The Killing Joke as trash you're also doing the same to Oracle, who and what she was, and the 25+ years of stories about her rising above adversity.

 

[Zombine]

Dudes, real discussion about books are getting lost among this debate. Please dear god can we move on? A lot of our regulars straight up aren't posting, or shit that is actually about books is getting lost. We've had new people come in asking for help and we're not doing what we normally do to help.

 

[ElNarez]

You can't have it both ways.

If you want your adult themes, you can't bark when you get adult themes that don't particularly agree with your worldview.

If I can't have kindness or empathy from my comics, fuck that, I'm out, and comics need to die.

 

[GrandHarrier]

If I can't have kindness or empathy from my comics, fuck that, I'm out, and comics need to die.

Every issue should end with a rational discussion about their differences and then hugging it out.

There is room for both types of comics, imo.

 

[MC Safety]

If I can't have kindness or empathy from my comics, fuck that, I'm out, and comics need to die.

Yeah, I think you've picked up the wrong hobby.

People have every right to criticize themes they don't agree with. Just because a message or theme is adult doesn't mean it's right or in good taste.

Criticize away, Baron. It's disingenuous to embrace the notion of comics as adult but not adult enough to hearken back to a comic book you don't like.

 

[olympia]

Eh fuck it. Waid has said most of what I feel about it.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Hi guys!

*found y'all secret base!!!!* >

I just started to pick up Crossed yesterday Does that count? ..... Uh.... Can I post here or do I have to accumulate enough cool creds first?

Exhibit A for your consideration for my posting rights: I own very old X-Men comics And .... uh, Excalibur ! ^____^

How did you find our secret base?! I thought we managed to hide it for good when we moved to community. I kid; let me give you a welcome as well!

There are absolutely no requirements to post here. You'll find that we're very inclusive even if we sometimes bicker like family.

What made you decide to pick up Crossed? How are you enjoying it so far? I've read probably the first dozen issues or so. It sure it something else.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Yeah, I think you've picked up the wrong hobby.

Refusal to change is gonna be the death of this hobby.

Criticize away, Baron. It's disingenuous to embrace the notion of comics as adult but not adult enough to hearken back to a comic book you don't like.

I believe it is adult to know your audience and to consider what is or isn't considered acceptable by that audience. Batgirl is a very upbeat and socially liberal comic, and its audience is very likely rather liberal as well. It's not the best of ideas to use a variant that diminishes the strength of a leading female character when the actual comic emphasizes feminist themes.

Spoiler

I assume it has strong feminist themes, it's liberal enough to have one of its main characters be transgender.

Hell, I do believe that The Killing Joke was actually referenced in the pages of the current Batgirl run, and said reference was depicted as being very offensive.

 

[Prozel]

Recently I've been in a DC mood with the animated movies so yesterday I bought first vol og Justice League New 52.

I want more now.

 

[Mindwipe]

It's not being censored, the artist requested it to be pulled and DC complied.

This is literally an artist doing what he thinks is best, which is what you say you want. It's a good thing.

Economic censorship is still censorship.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Recently I've been in a DC mood with the animated movies so yesterday I bought first vol og Justice League New 52.

I want more now.

Any characters in particular that you like?

Easy recommendations based on just the Justice League would be:

Starting at Volume 1
Justice League (which you've started)
Batman
Batman and Robin
Wonder Woman
Aquaman

 

[Mindwipe]

I believe it is adult to know your audience and to consider what is or isn't considered acceptable by that audience. Batgirl is a very upbeat and socially liberal comic, and its audience is very likely rather liberal as well.

Megalolz.

The same book that undid it's female character's decades of progression due to the editor's fetish for everything being like he remembers it in the 70s, and dumped DC's only significant disabled character into retcon-ville for a jolly teen girl book?

That's a "socially liberal comic"? GTFO.

 

[olympia]

Has anyone seen the June DC solicits? Legit excited for that Dr. Fate book.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I believe it is adult to know your audience and to consider what is or isn't considered acceptable by that audience. Batgirl is a very upbeat and socially liberal comic, and its audience is very likely rather liberal as well. It's not the best of ideas to use a variant that diminishes the strength of a leading female character when the actual comic emphasizes feminist themes.

Spoiler

I assume it has strong feminist themes, it's liberal enough to have one of its main characters be transgender.

Hell, I do believe that The Killing Joke was actually referenced in the pages of the current Batgirl run, and said reference was depicted as being very offensive.

1. Batgirl is not upbeat, even Stewart's TERRIBLE current run on it, isn't anywhere close to being upbeat.
2. I don't think there's anything particularly liberal about the current terrible run.
3. The variant didn't diminish her strength as a character, it showed one particular moment.
4. LOL what there's no strong feminist themes in the current run. Are you even reading it? In fact it makes Barbara Gordon look terrible at what she does, and makes her seem like a complete failure in all aspects of her life.
5. The liberal transgender character was from Gail Simone's run which was darker than the current one and where this variant would have fit. The current run dropped the transgender character completely.
6. Stewart's run hasn't mentioned the killing joke, Simone's run did, and in no way was said reference depicted as being very offensive.

If you're going to comment on this shit, at least be up to date and know what you're talking about.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Has anyone seen the June DC solicits? Legit excited for that Dr. Fate book.

As part of that excitement I'm also really looking forward to Earth 2: Society. It looks like a fascinating concept; The Earth 2 heroes helping to rebuild a new world after their last was destroyed. Curious if Fate will still be a part of that. He got sidelined in the previous Earth 2 stuff, sadly.

 

[Prozel]

Any characters in particular that you like?

Easy recommendations based on just the Justice League would be:

Starting at Volume 1
Justice League (which you've started)
Batman
Batman and Robin
Wonder Woman
Aquaman

I like the whole Lantern universe. Flash is cool . Batman's always a winner for me. Actually the whole Bat Family is something I'm interested in. I'm eyeing Bat, Detective Comic, NIghtwing and Batman and Robin.

That said I will settle with some more JL first. That stuff was awesome.

 

[Messi]

What's this about Batgirl?

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Recently I've been in a DC mood with the animated movies so yesterday I bought first vol og Justice League New 52.

I want more now.

You definitely want to pick up Snyder's run on Batman, and I mean all of it. Start from issue 1 of the N52 launch for it. You'll also want to check out Johns' short lived but awesome run on Superman, and pick up Action Comics once Pak took over writing duties on it. GH already recommended Batman and Robin, and Aquaman, those are also series you want to read from issue 1.

Personally I'd also recommend Superman/Wonder Woman, I think its been a solid and enjoyable read.

Just a heads up about WW the run with the N52 starts of really solid and then drags. It ends up being a story that lasts 36/7 issues and could definitely have been told in way fewer issues. There's moments of brilliance there, but editorial should have made them finish the arc and move on.

 

[Tyrant Rave]

Has anyone seen the June DC solicits? Legit excited for that Dr. Fate book.

Yeah we had some talk about the new books. I'm real excited for the Harley Quinn and Power Girl mini, Starfire, and Black Canary. Plus Grayson and Gotham Academy of course.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

Megalolz.

The same book that undid it's female character's decades of progression due to the editor's fetish for everything being like he remembers it in the 70s, and dumped DC's only significant disabled character into retcon-ville for a jolly teen girl book?

That's a "socially liberal comic"? GTFO.

Fair enough. I'll stop debating because I have not read the comic.

I'm just tired of people trying to argue that comics have no business trying to keep up with the modern world. If the Big Two are gonna keep making comics, they're gonna have to expand their audiences, and there are gonna be compromises on the way.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

As part of that excitement I'm also really looking forward to Earth 2: Society. It looks like a fascinating concept; The Earth 2 heroes helping to rebuild a new world after their last was destroyed. Curious if Fate will still be a part of that. He got sidelined in the previous Earth 2 stuff, sadly.

Even though I miss the concept of a JSA Earth that never really came to be, this whole earth 2 anything can happen and we'll just go nuts has been wildly entertaining.

 

[GrandHarrier]

I like the whole Lantern universe. Flash is cool . Batman's always a winner for me. Actually the whole Bat Family is something I'm interested in. I'm eyeing Bat, Detective Comic, NIghtwing and Batman and Robin.

That said I will settle with some more JL first. That stuff was awesome.

If you haven't already, check out Green Lantern Reading Order for how to dive into the Lanternverse. If you wanna just jump in, June will see the relaunch of Green Lantern as Green Lantern: Lost Army.

If you enjoy the Justice League stuff, also consider the Forever Evil trade.