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COMICS! |OT| May 2013. Nothing says "love you Mom" like a thick Man-Thing... Omnibus.

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Can someone explain to me the New 52? I'm doing a little bit of reading up on it and it sounds like a huge mess. Particularly everything related to Batman. So, it is a reboot of everything except for Batman, who now has all of his history crammed into 5 years? But then, a lot of the Bat Family members did get reboots, so are they just erased from all the stories of Batman that still are in continuity? And if Batman's history is still legit, what about all of his interactions with the JLA and whatnot? And then some writers say fuck it and write as if nothing has changed? And 2 years in they're already retconning stuff?

Is it the main universe now? Are books still written for the other ones?

The easiest way to describe the "New 52"-timeline as a whole is: It is a rebooted universe, with a complete new history where some events happend that resemble past DC stories.

Some recent history - like Batman and Green Lantern - resemeble their previous incarnations more than others - Superman or Wonder Woman -. This was done because their last runs in the old DCU were more successful and creators had set up stories that needed more time to conclude. So the first 2 years of the "New 52" Green Lantern books work kinda with the old GL books and Batman Inc. and Batman & Robin kinda work with the pre-new52 Batbooks.

This means: In the "New 52" Timeline No Public Superhero before Superman, who debutted around 6 years ago as seen in Action Comics Nr 1. Batman surfaced 6,5 years ago.
The 5 years before the stories of the relaunch are slowly revealed. Superman and the JLA had their origins shown. Batman's "Zero Year" begins next month etc. So they are slowly building the universe back up.

Now the more complex case of Batman: Many important events like Knightfall, the death of Jason Todd, the time when Dick was Batman etc. happend to those characters too. But those event's did not happen in the same way as characters and timelines were changed. So you can see those old stories as vague references. It does not make any sense to try to fit old stories into the new timeline and simply role with the information that is shown on page since the relaunch.

Long Story, short Answer: It's fucked up if you try to make any sense of the "New 52" and the previous timeline.
 

wetflame

Pizza Dog
Interested in jumping in for Daredevil. Is the MarvelNow relaunch a good jumping on point or do I have to go farther back?

I'd say if you can afford to start at the beginning then do so, mainly just because it's an excellent series and you'll enjoy it. I think they designed #23 as a jumping on point but there's some great stuff you'll be missing if you do.
 
The easiest way to describe the "New 52"-timeline as a whole is: It is a rebooted universe, with a complete new history where some events happend that resemble past DC stories.

Some recent history - like Batman and Green Lantern - resemeble their previous incarnations more than others - Superman or Wonder Woman -. This was done because their last runs in the old DCU were more successful and creators had set up stories that needed more time to conclude. So the first 2 years of the "New 52" Green Lantern books work kinda with the old GL books and Batman Inc. and Batman & Robin kinda work with the pre-new52 Batbooks.

This means: In the "New 52" Timeline No Public Superhero before Superman, who debutted around 6 years ago as seen in Action Comics Nr 1. Batman surfaced 6,5 years ago.
The 5 years before the stories of the relaunch are slowly revealed. Superman and the JLA had their origins shown. Batman's "Zero Year" begins next month etc. So they are slowly building the universe back up.

Now the more complex case of Batman: Many important events like Knightfall, the death of Jason Todd, the time when Dick was Batman etc. happend to those characters too. But those event's did not happen in the same way as characters and timelines were changed. So you can see those old stories as vague references. It does not make any sense to try to fit old stories into the new timeline and simply role with the information that is shown on page since the relaunch.

Long Story, short Answer: It's fucked up if you try to make any sense of the "New 52" and the previous timeline.

Actually Batman started 5 years before Superman showed up, he was considered just an Urban Legend/Myth during those first 5 years though. So technically Batman has been doing his thing for 11 - 12 years, Superman 6 - 7 years.
 

wetflame

Pizza Dog
Wonder Woman and FF for me. There's a few more I'd get if I wasn't really far behind and needing to catch up, namely BPRD and Fatale.

I see that the Scott Pilgrim Vol 3 Color edition is out this week too, hoping for a collected set when they're all released so I can grab them for slightly cheaper.
 
I thought Batman #0 debunked that theory.

I could have sworn it was more than a theory and DC's Official word on it. I don't remember Batman 0 offhand, what debunked the official word on it in it?

Plus in Red Hood and the Outlaws, in one of the issues Jason mentions training under Bruce for years. Pretty much impossible if we've seen 5 Robins in 6 years. Not that 12 is much better, but it is almost plausible. Plus you'd need at least close to that amount of time for Bruce to be Batman for a year or two before Dick becomes Robin, but still gives Dick time to grow up from a kid to a Man.

5 - 6 years just can not work for the Batman timeline they've hinted at.
 
Actually Batman started 5 years before Superman showed up, he was considered just an Urban Legend/Myth during those first 5 years though. So technically Batman has been doing his thing for 11 - 12 years, Superman 6 - 7 years.

Uhm no. that was a theory some fanboys had because they could not stand some of the implications made by the 5 year timeline.

But it DC always shut them down and the Zero month proved that Bruce returned to Gotham close to 7 years ago from the then present.
 
I could have sworn it was more than a theory and DC's Official word on it. I don't remember Batman 0 offhand, what debunked the official word on it in it?

Plus in Red Hood and the Outlaws, in one of the issues Jason mentions training under Bruce for years. Pretty much impossible if we've seen 5 Robins in 6 years. Not that 12 is much better, but it is almost plausible. Plus you'd need at least close to that amount of time for Bruce to be Batman for a year or two before Dick becomes Robin, but still gives Dick time to grow up from a kid to a Man.

5 - 6 years just can not work for the Batman timeline they've hinted at.

Snyder has gone on the record in several interviews on Newsarama and CBR.

And Dick was shown to be with the circus 5 years ago in Nightwing very often. It has been established that he never was a "boywonder" and that Robin was just a transition phase for him in Nightwing 0.

And we never had 5 Robins in the new52. We had Dick (appeard in the first year after JL:Origins), Jason and Damien. Red Robin was never officially a Robin. And the Bat-team even makes jokes about the fact that being a Robin is now something like an internship (Jason in the first DoTF aftermath issue of RHaO, as he talks with Damien even spells it out, that they share the experience of an "internship program called the Robins").

EDIT: Just checked it: Batman 0 from Snyder opens with the caption: "Gotham - 6 years ago" and the Back-up where the future Robins and Batgirl are featured begins with 5 years ago.
 

Owzers

Member
Dear DC,

Please bring back Superboy Prime and retcon-punch the "Nu52" back into 1993 where it belongs.

Thank you,

-Jon

The only thing that would make me excited about Trinity War is superboy prime shenanigans.

Ten issues into All New X-Men and the book still hasn't had a single story arc really.
 
DC doesn't care about things making sense or not in their new timeline. This would imply that they properly thought the re-launch out in the first place.

If you liked DC pre-New 52, you were a fan of the exact same thing that came out of that generations reboot, COIE. (p.s. that wasn't exactly well thought out either)

If you didn't like DC pre-New 52, then you weren't going to like whatever happened in any case.
 
If you liked DC pre-New 52, you were a fan of the exact same thing that came out of that generations reboot, COIE. (p.s. that wasn't exactly well thought out either)

If you didn't like DC pre-New 52, then you weren't going to like whatever happened in any case.

This COIE thing you keep trotting out is fallacious to the extreme.

If you don't want to feel like anyone who likes DC gets piled on, stop trying to devalue anyone's subjective sense that it stinks with wack arguments like "Well, where were you when they did COIE, I didn't hear you complain then."

ESPECIALLY considering in my personal case, dude, I literally bought and was hyped about literally every single Nu52 book. And now my personal subjective opinion is that 90% of them stink and are being choked to death by editorial.

People are allowed to think whatever they want. You're allowed to love Nu52 as much as you do, but stop trying to discredit other people's opinions.
 

kswiston

Member
If you liked DC pre-New 52, you were a fan of the exact same thing that came out of that generations reboot, COIE. (p.s. that wasn't exactly well thought out either)

If you didn't like DC pre-New 52, then you weren't going to like whatever happened in any case.

I liked pre-New 52 DC. I'm sure people rightly bitched about the COIE reboot, but I was 4 years old at the time and obviously wasn't reading comics to care. Assuming that they don't mess around with things a second time, perhaps DC fans in 10-15 years will view this as the continuity that they grew up with and will be perfectly fine with it.
 
This COIE thing you keep trotting out is fallacious to the extreme.

People are allowed to think whatever they want. You're allowed to love Nu52 as much as you do, but stop trying to discredit other people's opinions.

How is comparing COIE to New52 fallacious? They were both reboots born out of an event series that cherry picked continuity and glossed over anything that didn't mesh perfectly well. I see it as a perfectly valid comparison. Please enlighten me as to how they are invalid comparisons, please.

I liked pre-New 52 DC. I'm sure people rightly bitched about the COIE reboot, but I was 4 years old at the time and obviously wasn't reading comics to care. Assuming that they don't mess around with things a second time, perhaps DC fans in 10-15 years will view this as the continuity that they grew up with and will be perfectly fine with it.

If only the internet as it exists now had existed then.
 

Filthy Slug

Crowd screaming like hounds at the heat of the chase/ All the colors of the rainbow flood my face
Has anybody hopped on Red Hood since James Tynion hopped on? If so, how is it? I want to pick it up but I fear the post-Lobdell world of the comic.
 

DiscoJon

Banned
I keep having this dream. A vision if you will.

Setting: The Nu52

Scene: Earth is quaking, our heroes are gathered under darkened crimson skies, baffled as to what is going on.

Suddenly, a crack of thunder in the sky and a man clad in red appears in streak of light.

The Flash: "Who are you? Your costume... It's just like mine?"

Man in Red: "Barry?!? My god, is it you?!? I thought I'd never see you again!!!"

Flash: "I'm sorry, do I know you?"

Man in Red: "Barry, it's me!


Wally!!


WALLY WEST!!!"

Superman: "Flash, do you know this man?"

Flash: "Wally West? I'm sorry, I... I don't know who he is..."

W.W.: "Barry! But... No... There's no time left... He's coming! We're out of time!!!"

Batman: "Who? Who's coming?"

W.W.: The end of everything... I've ran so far... Oh god.."

Flash: "Who's coming, Wally? Who?"

W.W.: "THE ANTI-MONITOR."
 
How is comparing COIE to New52 fallacious? They were both reboots born out of an event series that cherry picked continuity and glossed over anything that didn't mesh perfectly well. I see it as a perfectly valid comparison. Please enlighten me as to how they are invalid comparisons, please.

Make the comparison, fine, but don't prop it up as a reason people aren't allowed to think most of Nu52 stinks.

You're not saying "These things are interesting, let's compare the two and enlighten both." You're saying "These things are similar, so if you like one, you have to like the other or you're just a hater."
 
GrandHarrier's favorite website

Ten issues into All New X-Men and the book still hasn't had a single story arc really.

Bendisssss

As for this week's haul:

Conan the Barbarian #16 - Another story arc, another artist! This time it's Wood's old Northlanders buddy, Davide Gianfelice. Still wish Cloonan would draw SOMETHING else besides the first three issues, but Wood has finally found a way to take his talent for dialog and characterization and put them into story arcs that don't seem padded out for the 6-issue trade.

Fatale #14 - Brubaker/Phillips

FF #7 - Medusa bout to break hearts

Iron Man #10 - Don't look now, but Land isn't drawing this and Gillen might be doing something besides Fraction/Ellis retreads!

Wolverine And The X-Men #29 - I'm sticking with this book because the Hellfire Saga is coming up next issue, but it's on thin ice, man.

Scott Pilgrim Color HC Vol. 03 - It's been nice revisiting this great comic waiting for the color hardcovers. It's just like the original releases all over again!
 
Superboy Prime was fun as hell.

All the meta uber fanboy comedy around him was amusing.

Yeah, he had an awesome arc.

I busted out 52 this weekend. God that was the best. That was DC Prime, right there. Infinite Crisis > 52 > One Year Later. Sinestro Corps was happening.

The best.
 
DC doesn't care about things making sense or not in their new timeline. This would imply that they properly thought the re-launch out in the first place.

The problem is that they tried to eat their cake and have it at the same time.

If they had been upfront with several properties (Batman / GL / Titans / Superboy) and simply told us that those are reboots in the same sense as Superman, JL and Wonder Woman the f4nboiz would have cried too, but we would have adjusted way better.

Now that they seem to reveal the early years of the new Batman and GL #20 seems to have a sequence showing Hal Jordans past we can assume that they have sorted it out. Same for the Titans, where it is established now that this is the first TT team and that Richard lead a group of younger heroes in the past in the period after he had changed his identity to Nightwing, but never formed a team with the Titans name and we do not know why they stopped working together.

And Superboy is a mess - from "Clone of Superman and Lex Luther" to "Clone of Superman and Lois Lane and a potential future son of them" is not an improvement ;)
 

dan2026

Member
Yeah, he had an awesome arc.

I busted out 52 this weekend. God that was the best. That was DC Prime, right there. Infinite Crisis > 52 > One Year Later. Sinestro Corps was happening.

The best.

Is the last time we saw Prime, back in his own universe trolling on the DC comics forum?

I believe it was at the end of Legion of Three Worlds.

Such an ridiculous awesome end to the guy.
 

Nudull

Banned
Pour one out for Amethyst. Hopefully she finds a place in something like Justice League Dark.

P.S. I hope all of you monsters who didn't buy it and support it feel proud of yourselves. You killed something beautiful. ;)

I will buy the trade in it's memory. Take comfort in that, at least.
 
Make the comparison, fine, but don't prop it up as a reason people aren't allowed to think most of Nu52 stinks.

You're not saying "These things are interesting, let's compare the two and enlighten both." You're saying "These things are similar, so if you like one, you have to like the other or you're just a hater."

A week or so ago I made a post specifically soliciting what series people didn't like, what they didn't like about them, while specifically highlighting those series that I personally felt were sub par. As you might imagine, there were very few responses, and I feel this is in large part because people have a tendency to trash talk or bitch about stuff they aren't actually getting.

Of course I could be entirely wrong. But to me that often seems to be the case. Hate Lobdell? Think he is a hack? Every book he write sucks. (Which actually isn't the case, Red Hood has consistently been an enjoyable series, to respond to a poster above about it).

Superboy Prime was fun as hell.

All the meta uber fanboy comedy around him was amusing.

Legion of Three Worlds is especially great.

I will buy the trade in it's memory. Take comfort in that, at least.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Lopresti's art is just... gorgeous. And Christy Marx crafted a fun story in an interesting world.
 
My mistake on Batman then and I remembered things wrong. Trying to cram 5 Robins in 6 years is LOLtastic. They should have listened to the theories and gone with 10 years of Batman at the start new 52 instead of 6.

In regards to this whole hate of the NU52, personally I'm a fan of reboots. I think it gives them a chance to update origins, and create a new continuity for a new generation of comic fans.

Reboots gave me as a young comic reader a continuity for my generation that would last for 25 years give or take. I have no problem giving up that continuity for a new generation so they can have their continuity.
 
A week or so ago I made a post specifically soliciting what series people didn't like, what they didn't like about them, while specifically highlighting those series that I personally felt were sub par. As you might imagine, there were very few responses, and I feel this is in large part because people have a tendency to trash talk or bitch about stuff they aren't actually getting.

Well, what are people supposed to do. I'm confident in saying a good 80% of the regs here gave (or gives) DC a fair shake but if they lost interest, it's not their fault. They have a right to say "I don't read that anymore" or "Every book by Lobdell I've read stinks so no thanks".

It's not that reasonable to expect everyone to have a reason for every DC book they're not getting past "Really not crazy about the direction of the line these days".
 

kswiston

Member
Small week for me:

- Age of Ultron #8
- Cable and the X-Force #8
- FF #7
- Wolverine and the X-Men #29


I didn't think the first two issues of Nova were bad, but I wasn't interested enough to continue with the series.

I enjoyed Cable and the X-Force more than I expected to, so that is getting added to the list.

I might go back and pick up Iron Man #9 and #10.

Can't wait to be done with Age of Ultron. Sometimes I think I pick up these crossovers solely so that I don't feel left out of forum debate...
 
Well, what are people supposed to do. I'm confident in saying a good 80% of the regs here gave (or gives) DC a fair shake but if they lost interest, it's not their fault. They have a right to say "I don't read that anymore" or "Every book by Lobdell I've read stinks so no thanks".

It's not that reasonable to expect everyone to have a reason for every DC book they're not getting past "Really not crazy about the direction of the line these days".

Sure. I completely get that. People are allowed to do that. I obviously do that for Marvel. I find most of it to be not of my taste. A few titles intrigue me (like Captain Marvel), but I don't want to get invested in just a one off piece of a shared universe. But, I still follow reviews about it, peek at it at the comic shop, etc. So I feel confident in telling myself that I'm OK not getting it, because of the previously mentioned reasons and the atrocious art.

But I don't make generalized comments about the Marvel U, or broad labeling, like "Everything is Uncanny or Avenging, Force or Avengers, or some combination of those terms". Because I don't feel comfortable in painting with those sort of strokes about stuff I don't actually read.

GrandHarrier, why can't you just be cool like tim1138

Ain't no one can be cool like tim1138.

Honest answer: I'm more prone to adversarial / arguementative comments online I guess. I'm passionate about what I like. And sometimes I feel like this is the Marvel Comics! |OT|.

Are you getting by DC? "If you don't like it, you're either a hypocrite or you were never going to like it!" sounds like it was ripped straight from their PR department.

My comment is meant to point out the fallacy of saying you hate a reboot for being a reboot while also loving stuff that came out of a reboot.
 

Blader

Member
If you liked DC pre-New 52, you were a fan of the exact same thing that came out of that generations reboot, COIE. (p.s. that wasn't exactly well thought out either)

If you didn't like DC pre-New 52, then you weren't going to like whatever happened in any case.

Are you getting paid by DC? "If you don't like it, you're either a hypocrite or you were never going to like it!" sounds like it was ripped straight from their PR department.
 
I think the new 52 has given some gifts thanks to the reboot, the current run on Aquaman is probably the best version/stories of Aquaman in the last 30 years. I'm personally damn happy to have Barry back, and Batgirl and Batwoman have had some really solid storytelling. Plus I think it's about damn fucking time that Barbara Gordon walked again. Considering the injuries that other DC characters came back from, the fact that she hasn't walked in multiple decades was just ridiculous at this point. Earth 2 has been firing on all cylinders for awhile and if you're reading DC books and not Earth 2 something is wrong and you need to change that.

I think there have been some pretty solid lows too though. Superman/Superboy/Supergirl are at a IMHO mutli-decade low. The handling of the characters has been pretty damn poor IMHO, including Morrison's run on AC. Rotworld took way too long for too little payoff, specially after how awesome Animal Man and Swamp Thing started off.

Point being shitting on all of the NU52 seems silly, there's good and bad there.
 
Can't wait to be done with Age of Ultron. Sometimes I think I pick up these crossovers solely so that I don't feel left out of forum debate...

Is there really a lot of debate about it? It seems so unconnected to the actual universe. It's so clearly going to have no impact on the MU proper.
 

kswiston

Member
My mistake on Batman then and I remembered things wrong. Trying to cram 5 Robins in 6 years is LOLtastic. They should have listened to the theories and gone with 10 years of Batman at the start new 52 instead of 6.

In regards to this whole hate of the NU52, personally I'm a fan of reboots. I think it gives them a chance to update origins, and create a new continuity for a new generation of comic fans.

Reboots gave me as a young comic reader a continuity for my generation that would last for 25 years give or take. I have no problem giving up that continuity for a new generation so they can have their continuity.

Having started with Marvel comics, I think that new fans are perfectly capable of diving into existing continuity. All of us who picked up the hobby in the 90s and 2000s did exactly that. I didn't really start reading DC comics until the mid 2000s, but when I started buying comics in 1995/1996, COIE was already a decade old and the titles relaunched in that event were nearing issue 150. I don't see how that is any more newcomer friendly than 30-40 years of continuity.

You can update character origins through retcons or retellings without doing line-wide reboots.
 
You can update character origins through retcons or retellings without doing line-wide reboots.

How do people feel about this stuff though? It is one point that has always personally bothered me. Sometimes I don't understand the hate for reboots but the acceptance for retcons. I mean, if you retcon something like Tony Stark or Punisher's origin, doesn't that invalidate previous stories that would have thus happened before their origin? It really feels like a reboot that is hush-whispered away.

I think the new 52 has given some gifts thanks to the reboot, the current run on Aquaman is probably the best version/stories of Aquaman in the last 30 years. I'm personally damn happy to have Barry back, and Batgirl and Batwoman have had some really solid storytelling. Plus I think it's about damn fucking time that Barbara Gordon walked again. Considering the injuries that other DC characters came back from, the fact that she hasn't walked in multiple decades was just ridiculous at this point. Earth 2 has been firing on all cylinders for awhile and if you're reading DC books and not Earth 2 something is wrong and you need to change that.

I think there have been some pretty solid lows too though. Superman/Superboy/Supergirl are at a IMHO mutli-decade low. The handling of the characters has been pretty damn poor IMHO, including Morrison's run on AC. Rotworld took way too long for too little payoff, specially after how awesome Animal Man and Swamp Thing started off.

Point being shitting on all of the NU52 seems silly, there's good and bad there.

You articulated my own thoughts much better.

Especially the Barbara disability stuff. Me and my friends would debate that all the time. I recall there being some murmurs about Barbara getting better being an insult to people with disabilities. And my only thought to that in response was, is getting better really insulting??? If someone couldn't walk and we developed the means to fix that, would they not pursue it, because it'd be insulting/demeaning?

But seriously. It really didn't make any sense.
 

Dysun

Member
Hopefully Superman Unchained is good to make up for everything else Superman being garbage. Still can't believe Lobdell is writing 2 Superman monthlies in multiple solicits now.
 

ReiGun

Member
Reboots and relaunches are a good way to get new readers because so many make reading comics out to be much harder than it is. I got into this like 3 or 4 years ago before nu52 and NOW started - in other words, while both companies were balls deep in continuity, crossovers and high numbers - and all I did was pick up books with characters I liked and started reading. Wasn't that hard for me, but whenever I try to explain that to others, all I get back are cries of "It's all too confusing" and "All they do is tell the same story over and over with all these different versions." Relaunches/reboots make it that much easier for people to just read the damn books.

On New 52, I've enjoyed it for the most part. I like what I read. Is it all quality, great books? No, of course not. There's 52 of the damn things. Of course there's gonna be crap. My problems with DC go beyond the books themselves as some writers do manage to navigate/circumvent the absolute clusterfuck that is editorial atm and actually put out quality work. Overall, I think the whole thing needed another year in the oven for DC to figure out just what the hell it was doing.
 

kswiston

Member
How do people feel about this stuff though? It is one point that has always personally bothered me. Sometimes I don't understand the hate for reboots but the acceptance for retcons. I mean, if you retcon something like Tony Stark or Punisher's origin, doesn't that invalidate previous stories that would have thus happened before their origin? It really feels like a reboot that is hush-whispered away.

I'd rather have stories I liked retconned, than characters I liked wiped out of existence. Granted I haven't kept up with Superboy since maybe issue 5, but he wasn't even the same character post reboot. Same seemed to be true with a few of the other titans. Legacy heroes were shunted to Earth 2 and radically changed. Others were erased from existence. I think all of that is on a different level than finding out Bucky was never dead, or that Hal was possessed by a yellow fear monster when he wiped out the Corps.

As someone who was basically new to the DCU, I think that Kevin Smith's Green Arrow relaunch and John's Green Lantern relaunch were much better ways to gain the attention of new readers. They were clear jumping on points. They explained what past continuity needed explaining to new readers without ignoring it completely. Whatever retcons were made were given context.
 
Having started with Marvel comics, I think that new fans are perfectly capable of diving into existing continuity. All of us who picked up the hobby in the 90s and 2000s did exactly that. I didn't really start reading DC comics until the mid 2000s, but when I started buying comics in 1995/1996, COIE was already a decade old and the titles relaunched in that event were nearing issue 150. I don't see how that is any more newcomer friendly than 30-40 years of continuity.

You can update character origins through retcons or retellings without doing line-wide reboots.


10 - 15 years of history is easy to catch up on with a few trade paperbacks. Marvel's continuity started in 1961. We're talking 52 years of history here, that's a lot. That's a lot of Omnibus' to catch up on. Plus how are some of these guys still fucking active. I get it comic book time, but you're going to reach a point where that just doesn't work IMHO.
 
How do people feel about this stuff though? It is one point that has always personally bothered me. Sometimes I don't understand the hate for reboots but the acceptance for retcons. I mean, if you retcon something like Tony Stark or Punisher's origin, doesn't that invalidate previous stories that would have thus happened before their origin? It really feels like a reboot that is hush-whispered away.



You articulated my own thoughts much better.

Especially the Barbara disability stuff. Me and my friends would debate that all the time. I recall there being some murmurs about Barbara getting better being an insult to people with disabilities. And my only thought to that in response was, is getting better really insulting??? If someone couldn't walk and we developed the means to fix that, would they not pursue it, because it'd be insulting/demeaning?

But seriously. It really didn't make any sense.

I kind of get how people like retcons instead of reboots. That said though reboots are the better way to go IMHO, specially since it usually needs to be a whole universe type of reboot. Retcon fixes Tony Start not being 70 and having been in vietnam, but what about his interactions with other characters that could effect their continuity? They may not get retconed and then it's inconsistent.

Yeah it blows my mind the it's insulting defense for keeping Barbara in a wheel chair. Bruce had his fucking back broken and was back on the job in no time. Decades later Barbara still can't walk. Considering the shit Mister Terrific and others pulled off, how the fuck couldn't they give Barbara her ability to walk back.

Hopefully Superman Unchained is good to make up for everything else Superman being garbage. Still can't believe Lobdell is writing 2 Superman monthlies in multiple solicits now.

Yeah I have high hopes for Superman Unchained, but I think the problem with the character goes deeper than the writer handling him at the moment. Personally I think having Ma and Pa Kent dead really hurt the overall mythos of the character. What reason does he really have to stay on Earth? They're created a Clark Kent/Superman that is more disconnected/alone from humanity than previous ones. To play up the whole Alien alone thing, which could work for other characters, one as powerful as Superman though, not so much. He can go anywhere, what the fuck is keeping him on Earth?

I'd rather have stories I liked retconned, than characters I liked wiped out of existence. Granted I haven't kept up with Superboy since maybe issue 5, but he wasn't even the same character post reboot. Same seemed to be true with a few of the other titans. Legacy heroes were shunted to Earth 2 and radically changed. Others were erased from existence. I think all of that is on a different level than finding out Bucky was never dead, or that Hal was possessed by a yellow fear monster when he wiped out the Corps.

As someone who was basically new to the DCU, I think that Kevin Smith's Green Arrow relaunch and John's Green Lantern relaunch were much better ways to gain the attention of new readers. They were clear jumping on points. They explained what past continuity needed explaining to new readers without ignoring it completely. Whatever retcons were made were given context.

Unfortunately Superboy was one of the characters poorly handled by this reboot. Sadly that happens. Like I said though we have an Aquaman that is better than any of the previous ones. They've actually managed to make the character interesting for a bit. Not ever character has benefited, but not every retcon is a benefit to the characters either.

That said just because a character is different now, other characters don't exist any more, doesn't mean the 25 years of comics that you have with them don't exist. You still have them, now a new generation gets their version of these characters.

John Byrne's reboot of Superman that made huge changes to Lex Luthor improved the mythos SO MUCH. I'm sure folks hated that at first, but it made Lex such a better villain in the long run, and I'm so glad they did that.


As a side note, personally I thought Hal getting the get out of killing millions free card with the retconning of Paralax being an evil entity that possed him was major fucking bullshit. It lessened the impact of everything that happened.
 

Filthy Slug

Crowd screaming like hounds at the heat of the chase/ All the colors of the rainbow flood my face
As someone who was basically new to the DCU, I think that Kevin Smith's Green Arrow relaunch and John's Green Lantern relaunch were much better ways to gain the attention of new readers. They were clear jumping on points. They explained what past continuity needed explaining to new readers without ignoring it completely. Whatever retcons were made were given context.

But those were safe bets, dude. DC needed to do something that affected more than one or two major characters. The company-wide reboot was necessary to attract new customers and shuffle around potentially stagnating creators and creations. Details like Batman's continuity being mostly the same pre-boot but in a more condensed timeline is stuff that can be found out by fans who look into it and there are always going to be questionable details over minute details in character's histories, reboot or not, because decades of character history remain like residue in the back's of creators' and fans' minds for top-tier characters.

I personally love the Nu-52. There's a cohesion to the universe when I read the titles that I appreciate and its birthed some truly great titles. Despite having a bit of a momentum shift since year one, I continue to enjoy the hell out of a bunch of titles and I like the chances DC has been taking--Dial H being my main example. Holy hell is that a great comic that I don't think would have had a home (no matter how temporary it may be) pre-52.
 
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