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[MonarchJT]

Assets on the ps5 are decompressed on the fly through hardware and streamed through the ssd

On xbox they are already uncompressed (or compressed very little) and the same amount of data is going through the ssd.

That's what I believe

this, at very minimum....but clearly the issue have nothing to do with kraken/oodle vs zlib/bcpack compression diff

 

[Panajev2001a]

On xbox they are already uncompressed (or compressed very little) and the same amount of data is going through the ssd.

I do not think I agree with this: there should be a big difference in streaming and loading times. You are comparing almost 5x more throughput in one case vs the other. BCPack and zlib usage are not dependent on Direct Storage being used to access them.

 

[Shmunter]

100% no it's an old gen title they did nothing like that just added rt reflections

I agree that the likelihood is low, but to 100% something is unwise. The game is hot off the press, and Sony may have released their latest "tools" changing the development lanscape via simple approaches.

See how the next crop turns out.

 

[Godfavor]

I do not think I agree with this: there should be a big difference in streaming and loading times. You are comparing almost 5x more throughput in one case vs the other. BCPack and zlib usage are not dependent on Direct Storage being used to access them.

There is definitely a difference in favor of the ps5 if we factor the hardware specs alone. But there is another major factor that affects loading times which is the cpu draw calls, before the IO is even taken into consideration. That's why we see no difference in load times, that is because the game was compiled with last generation consoles and pc's in mind

 

[martino]

Why isn't it obvious most of time now is spend on how the game data is structured and time spend to organize and (re)init content loaded....
And sony studios didn't waited ps5 hardware to do amazing work there / third party or competition on their own hardware.

 

[Panajev2001a]

There is definitely a difference in favor of the ps5 if we factor the hardware specs alone. But there is another major factor that affects loading times which is the cpu draw calls, before the IO is even taken into consideration. That's why we see no difference in load times, that is because the game was compiled with last generation consoles and pc's in mind

That would be the same thing holding back both (the difference between the two consoles in terms of cold boot loading times, before draw call rate become a factor at all, should be much bigger if XSX were streaming in just uncompressed data vs Kraken and Oodle Texture compressed on PS5). There is nothing I see that should suggest (not even from a historical perspective) that PS5 has or should have a deficiency over CPU overhead per draw call... maybe the opposite actually.

I think the most important factor for loading times will be re engineering how assets are exported, stored, unpacked, and streamed in. Until then you will have some bandwidth potential going to waste a bit.

Regardless, it is naive IMHO to think that XSX games are not using zlib to compress general game data and BCPack for textures as both are an asset export problem and for example for zlib this had been in use already for the Xbox One generation and it is transparent for the game developers using it. I do not see any evidence at the moment that supports this claim.

 

[assurdum]

Why did Digital Foundry not bring this up and provide insight into it during their analysis?

Hitman 3 face off was instantly released. But lately when ps5 is ahead in something, they need of more time to scrutinize it. What exactly they have to do in their analysis only God knows.

 

[MonarchJT]

That would be the same thing holding back both (the difference between the two consoles in terms of cold boot loading times, before draw call rate become a factor at all, should be much bigger if XSX were streaming in just uncompressed data vs Kraken and Oodle Texture compressed on PS5). There is nothing I see that should suggest (not even from a historical perspective) that PS5 has or should have a deficiency over CPU overhead per draw call... maybe the opposite actually.

I think the most important factor for loading times will be re engineering how assets are exported, stored, unpacked, and streamed in. Until then you will have some bandwidth potential going to waste a bit.

Regardless, it is naive IMHO to think that XSX games are not using zlib to compress general game data and BCPack for textures as both are an asset export problem and for example for zlib this had been in use already for the Xbox One generation and it is transparent for the game developers using it. I do not see any evidence at the moment that supports this claim.

the same game being double size isnt any evidence?

 

[priba76br]

the same game being double size isnt any evidence?

Well, the game is double the size on XBOX, yet load times are similar. So these numbers also show that XBOX SSD is performing with double the PS5 speed... LOL .
I think the larger size is related with Remedy not using smat delivery, Old and New Versions should be on the disk, that´s something being discussed on the other forum.

 

[kuncol02]

There is definitely a difference in favor of the ps5 if we factor the hardware specs alone. But there is another major factor that affects loading times which is the cpu draw calls, before the IO is even taken into consideration. That's why we see no difference in load times, that is because the game was compiled with last generation consoles and pc's in mind

Why would draw calls affect loading times? Can you explain what you exactly means by that?

 

[Panajev2001a]

the same game being double size isnt any evidence?

No, because it would need to be bigger than the game on Xbox One/X too or you want to make me believe they forgot how to use the zlib decoder/Move Engines and are running everything uncompressed?

Something is odd with the packaging of the game vs PS5, but you are jumping to conclusions here: are you trying to tell me that in January they still have not enabled to texture exporter tool to compress texture data for the BCPACK unit to use? Xbox haters seem to have a better appreciation for MS as software developers than Xbox fans apparently...

 

[Godfavor]

Why would draw calls affect loading times? Can you explain what you exactly means by that?

The CPU is the first one to determine which asset the IO would load in the first place.

The IO then takes the lead and load the assets from the SSD into the GPU/CPU gddr6 memory / cache. Old game engines will rely on CPU speeds for decompression. Unless the game was made or altered to use hardware decompression (MS velocity, Sony's IO).

Then the assets are drawn on screen, you still need to wait a bit so the gpu has finished rendering the screen with new information (or stored into gpu/cpu memory so they can be used later).

So you still need a cpu to execute code. You also need cpu to decompress game assets unless you have a hardware decompression to do it for you.

That's why I said earlier that the file size is bigger for series consoles, the assets are probably less compressed so the ssd will mostly take them as it is and load them into memory.

I believe that Control is using only the decompression engine on sony's machine. Nowhere near the full potential of the IO.

 

[DJTaurus]

If you go on MS store even Control UE that mentions series X/S version it says bundled with One version. Remedy either gave a dump delivery or it was a straight PC port. Ps5 version plays only on PS5.

The secret IO sauce

 

[Jokerevo]

Another multiplat bites the dust

 

[onesvenus]

Something is odd with the packaging of the game vs PS5, but you are jumping to conclusions here: are you trying to tell me that in January they still have not enabled to texture exporter tool to compress texture data for the BCPACK unit to use? Xbox haters seem to have a better appreciation for MS as software developers than Xbox fans apparently...

Do we know if assets between the XSS and XSX versions are the same?
Riky has reportedly downloaded the game on an XSX, saved to an external drive, moved it to an XSS and been able to run it with no problems. If the assets are different between both versions, which would make sense IMO, they are packaging both versions on the same package.

 

[DJ12]

Do we know if assets between the XSS and XSX versions are the same?
Riky has reportedly downloaded the game on an XSX, saved to an external drive, moved it to an XSS and been able to run it with no problems. If the assets are different between both versions, which would make sense IMO, they are packaging both versions on the same package.

Lol.

Dumb and dumber everyone.

 

[AgentP]

Do we know if assets between the XSS and XSX versions are the same?
Riky has reportedly downloaded the game on an XSX, saved to an external drive, moved it to an XSS and been able to run it with no problems. If the assets are different between both versions, which would make sense IMO, they are packaging both versions on the same package.

Is the game 80+GB? No, it the approximate size as the PS4 and PC versions? Ya, seems like it is not some magical beast with duplicates data then.

 

[onesvenus]

Lol.

Dumb and dumber everyone.

Such a great counterpoint, really

Is the game 80+GB? No, it the approximate size as the PS4 and PC versions? Ya, seems like it is not some magical beast with duplicates data then.

It would be double the size if all the assets were duplicated.
I'm just saying there can be other reasons for that disparity other than "Kraken/Oodle are the best".
Even if that was the case, who was expecting an almost 100% difference between both compression schemes?

 

[Interfectum]

I'm just saying there can be other reasons for that disparity other than "Kraken/Oodle are the best".

Just let the Sony fanboys have this one. They love talking about Kraken and noodles and I love reading their hilarious BS.

 

[DJ12]

Such a great counterpoint, really

Didn't realise you were after one, I mean your source is Riky.

Of course he can put the game on his external drive and play it on the S and X AS IT THE SAME GAME AND THE SAME FILES.

Hence why he's Dumb and you, for citing him and his 'evidence', is dumber.

 

[phil_t98]

Simple reason. The ps5 version is build just for the ps5. The Xbox version is readable on all current Xbox devices. If they would make an xbox series version, it would also shrink in size. If they would even offer smart delivery it could be smaller. But they made just one version "to rule then all"

I honestly don't think that's the reason. It seems odd it's not compressed like the PS5 version. It's all speculation till the Dev speaks about it

 

[onesvenus]

Didn't realise you were after one, I mean your source is Riky.

Of course he can put the game on his external drive and play it on the S and X AS IT THE SAME GAME AND THE SAME FILES.

Hence why he's Dumb and you, for citing him and his 'evidence', is dumber.

Well if that's all there's to it, why is everybody making such a fuzz?
If, as I said, there's some difference between assets in XSS vs XSX, it's obvious having both of them on the same package will make that package larger than PS5 version.

 

[phil_t98]

I agree that the likelihood is low, but to 100% something is unwise. The game is hot off the press, and Sony may have released their latest "tools" changing the development lanscape via simple approaches.

See how the next crop turns out.

Weren't you saying it was an old game yesterday?

 

[TKOFromTokyo]

I'm not knowledgeable on any technical specs, but I am interested in seeing if there will be visible advantages for simpletons like myself. Storage has already been an issue for me transferring PS4 data to my PS5. My preference in the future would be to not have to transfer stuff on and off of my SSD unless it can be done in a couple of minutes.

 

[DJ12]

Well if that's all there's to it, why is everybody making such a fuzz?
If, as I said, there's some difference between assets in XSS vs XSX, it's obvious having both of them on the same package will make that package larger than PS5 version.

I'm not sure if you read my post or not as what you typed has little relation to it.

There is no Series S version, there's an xbox version. textures and assets are like for like ie the same. there are not two lots of textures for the game.

Series S runs the same assets at a lower resolution.

Nothing is doubled up like CEO damage control has suggested. There is one version that works on both. The difference in performance mode code literally be a line in the ini saying "Series S resolution = 1600x900"

 

[Riky]

difference in performance mode code literally be a line in the ini saying "Series S resolution = 1600x900"

There you have it Devs of the world, it's that easy to make the Series S version.

 

[AgentP]

Such a great counterpoint, really

It would be double the size if all the assets were duplicated.
I'm just saying there can be other reasons for that disparity other than "Kraken/Oodle are the best".
Even if that was the case, who was expecting an almost 100% difference between both compression schemes?

I'm not even sold on compression being it, it could be redundant data too. The whole two games in one narrative is nonsense though because it fails basic logic when applied to the PS4 and PC versions.

 

[onesvenus]

I'm not sure if you read my post or not as what you typed has little relation to it.

There is no Series S version, there's an xbox version. textures and assets are like for like ie the same. there are not two lots of textures for the game.

Series S runs the same assets at a lower resolution.

Nothing is doubled up like CEO damage control has suggested. There is one version that works on both. The difference in performance mode code literally be a line in the ini saying "Series S resolution = 1600x900"

Can you confirm there's no difference in assets?
It makes no sense to me having the same assets when you know you'll render them in a smaller resolution

 

[AgentP]

Can you confirm there's no difference in assets?
It makes no sense to me having the same assets when you know you'll render them in a smaller resolution

It would be obvious is the textures were a quarter res. Plus frame buffer res is not tied to texture res, the camera can get close to textures in any output resolution.

 

[DJ12]

There you have it Devs of the world, it's that easy to make the Series S version.

Do you PC game? This kind of game changing information is quite previlent there.

Here's a snippet of Dirt Rally 2.0's setup:

<graphics_card rating="4">
<eyefinity force="" osd="" />
<stereo enabled="false" separation="0.015" convergence="0.5" />
<resolution width="2560" height="1440" aspect="auto" fullscreen="1" vsync="1" refreshRate="60" multisampling="8xmsaa" supersampling="1" taa="1" />
<gamma level="1.0" />
<hdr level="1.0" />

and here's a bit I modified for Series S

<graphics_card rating="4">
<eyefinity force="" osd="" />
<stereo enabled="false" separation="0.015" convergence="0.5" />
<resolution width="1600" height="900" aspect="auto" fullscreen="1" vsync="1" refreshRate="60" multisampling="8xmsaa" supersampling="1" taa="1" />
<gamma level="1.0" />
<hdr level="1.0" />

I think you're under the delusion that the Series S needs major reworking. it doesn't. it just needs the resolution reducing and at a pinch taxing features turning off.

 

[DJ12]

Well if that's all there's to it, why is everybody making such a fuzz?
If, as I said, there's some difference between assets in XSS vs XSX, it's obvious having both of them on the same package will make that package larger than PS5 version.

You tell me why everyone's making a fuss, it's irrelevant really, yet we have you two arguing theres double data which is why it's twice as large.

There isn't, or are we now going to argue that all other games that work on Series X|S that are the same size as the PS5 version also contain double the data?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

I would imagine what's going on here is there's been some sort of directive from MS to not use compression for whatever reason.

It's not like this is the only evidence PS5's compression is way better, just look at some patch notes for Vahalla, always significantly smaller updates on PS5.

 

[EventHorizon]

It would be obvious is the textures were a quarter res. Plus frame buffer res is not tied to texture res, the camera can get close to textures in any output resolution.

A higher resolution display would show more texture detail at the same distance from the camera than a lower resolution display, and games have a minimal accepted distance from the camera. After all, games aren't designed for you to take a microscope to a wall. At that minimum distance, the extra detail of a higher resolution texture on the Series S simply could not be seen.

In fact, the goal for the Series S was indeed to use lower resolution textures. See this IGN interview with Xbox for proof.

In an interview with IGN, Xbox director of program management Jason Ronald confirmed that game install sizes will be approximately 30% smaller on the Series S than on the Series X. This is due to the reduced resolution texture packages needed for games on the Series S, which will be targeting 1440p resolution instead of 4K on the Series X.

 

[onesvenus]

You tell me why everyone's making a fuss, it's irrelevant really, yet we have you two arguing theres double data which is why it's twice as large.

There isn't, or are we now going to argue that all other games that work on Series X|S that are the same size as the PS5 version also contain double the data?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

I would imagine what's going on here is there's been some sort of directive from MS to not use compression for whatever reason.

It's not like this is the only evidence PS5's compression is way better, just look at some patch notes for Vahalla, always significantly smaller updates on PS5.

Sorry for wanting to find other hupothesis other than "it's due to Kraken/Oddle vs Zlib/BCPack". As much as fanboys want, that doesn't explain a 100% reduction in data.
But yeah, feel free to stop replying.

 

[Shmunter]

Sorry for wanting to find other hupothesis other than "it's due to Kraken/Oddle vs Zlib/BCPack". As much as fanboys want, that doesn't explain a 100% reduction in data.
But yeah, feel free to stop replying.

I'm speculating PS5 needs less LOD assets shipped

 

[onesvenus]

I'm speculating PS5 needs less LOD assets shipped

Can anyone show any difference in LODs used between PS5 and XSX versions? AFAIK no one has find any difference at all.

 

[Panajev2001a]

A higher resolution display would show more texture detail at the same distance from the camera than a lower resolution display, and games have a minimal accepted distance from the camera. After all, games aren't designed for you to take a microscope to a wall. At that minimum distance, the extra detail of a higher resolution texture on the Series S simply could not be seen.

In fact, the goal for the Series S was indeed to use lower resolution textures. See this IGN interview with Xbox for proof.

The idea there, winked at, is that users on 1080/1440p displays would not notice textures being much different from the perceived quality of textures 4K TV users would see. That was the deal.

 

[The_Mike]

Honestly I don't notice particular difference in in this video

What's the point anyway when they made a IRL decent looking woman look like a tranny in the game.

Why didn't they even fix that, the number one problem regarding the graphic in the game.

 

[Topher]

Well if that's all there's to it, why is everybody making such a fuzz?
If, as I said, there's some difference between assets in XSS vs XSX, it's obvious having both of them on the same package will make that package larger than PS5 version.

Even if that is the case, that really doesn't help the situation for Xbox. If i were an Xbox Series X owner then it would suck knowing that a significant chunk of my SSD space was being taken up by XSS files.

 

[Negotiator101]

What's the point anyway when they made a IRL decent looking woman look like a tranny in the game.

Why didn't they even fix that, the number one problem regarding the graphic in the game.

What on earth are you on about?

 

[The_Mike]

What on earth are you on about?

She looks much more masculine in game and didn't keep her feminine parts.

Probably to cater to Era types.

 

[Negotiator101]

She looks much more masculine in game and didn't keep her feminine parts.

Probably to cater to Era types.

I highly doubt it was intentional.

 

[BbMajor7th]

The secret IO sauce

The difference really hasn't been at all compelling in third party titles - then again, most PS5 first party games load between areas in a matter 2-3 seconds, which I've not really seen replicated by third parties yet. Clearly it's possible, but it could well be the case that from a development perspective, you only one to build a single I/O pipeline into your engine and make it work for all platforms, rather than building separate pipelines? Not a developer, so I'm just guessing here.

 

[The_Mike]

I highly doubt it was intentional.

Probably not, but they should've fixed it.

 

[Thirty7ven]

The difference really hasn't been at all compelling in third party titles - then again, most PS5 first party games load between areas in a matter 2-3 seconds, which I've not really seen replicated by third parties yet. Clearly it's possible, but it could well be the case that from a development perspective, you only one to build a single I/O pipeline into your engine and make it work for all platforms, rather than building separate pipelines? Not a developer, so I'm just guessing here.

Engines are woefully outdated in terms of data management. This has been said by many devs, and it's the single biggest departure going into this new generation.

Sony are quite clearly ahead of the rest of the industry, which makes sense as it was at the heart of the PS5 design. Once U5 hits and other devs have had the time to get up to speed, it will all become normal.

Until then uninformed people and fanboy warriors will latch on to bs examples, and later they will develop amnesia.

 

[D.Final]

At least it's an achievement
I guess

 

[Astorian]

Why do we still not have an explanation for this?

 

[svbarnard]

This is unfair, XSX is not a last minute quickly assembled console purely off the shelves.

Direct Storage is not even available as a beta API on PC and they built a console I/O system around it. They have a custom data decompressor unit in HW with custom texture unpacking logic (2-3:1 decompression ratio/throughput), ability to boost clock with SMT disabled, MS designed Audio DSP's and security chips, etc... even the dual speed UMA memory setup is custom and they produced a massive GPU cluster.

They invested in the SSD I/O solution a lot, but Sony invested more and made some more customisation in the GPU partially also to make up the lower CU count (giving them other benefits too as it allowed them to pursue a higher clock... the two companies had different strategies and invested their R&D/silicon budget differently).

Do you realize how bad this is going to be for Microsoft if this is the way it's going to be for the next several years? Say a video game is 100 gigs on PS5 and 200 gigs on Xbox series X that will be a catastrophe!!!!!! Utter catastrophe!!!!!!!

 

[svbarnard]

Series X does have dedicated HW units for that, but PS5's is roughly 400% more powerful than XSX's.

How can Microsoft fuck up this bad this is embarrassing!

 

[The_Mike]

What a sad point of view you have.

Yeah I know. Its a sad point of view I respect women for their feminine sides and not forcing masculinity on them.

 

[The_Mike]

Another one... that just wants to beat off to video games. What is it about today?

Dude how old are you?

I have a wife and a kid. Not everyone lives in a basement like you and jerking off to Abby thinking that's how real women looks like.

Keep to the subject.

Seeing women as feminine is nothing about jerking off. It's called biology. Look it up.

Next time have something to say or you get on ignore. I'm too old to discuss with 5 year olds. I have enough with my daughter don't need other babies to take care of.