DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I said sheer numbers. And black people are masking up more than not.
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I said sheer numbers. And black people are masking up more than not.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
No, she is the exact person who people want to try and protect by trying to persuade the people who can take the vaccine easily to do so. I also have a family member in this situation and I am honestly struggling to understand where your seeming hostility towards the vaccine is coming from.
synchronicity
Member
I would disagree that the behavioral versions of obesity/diabetes/ heart disease are the most complicated health issue(s) ever faced. Eating a whole, natural foods diet (of most any variety) while eliminating processed foods (boxed and packaged foods/restaurants/etc) will eliminate 99% of the aforementioned conditions. But that would require regulating the incredibly powerful and profitable food industry. And in the end, in the world we live in, money speaks louder than anything else. The solutions are simple, but there are interests with heavy pull that would squash any regulation. (And I'm not pro regulation, to be clear.)
Slaylock
Member
I have no hostility towards the vaccine. I have hostility to those who label all unvaccinated people as misinformed, low-IQ idiots. Don't lump all unvaccinated people into one pot. Many have very reasonable concerns about the vaccine.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Masks aren’t really doing anything anymore.
There’s one kind of mask that won’t protect you from the delta variant
“We need to talk about better masking.”
thehill.com
Also I asked you if black people were disproportionately unvaccinated. Sheer numbers are not relevant to that question. It is telling you don’t want to answer it though. Not that it matters, because it’s a math question with a right answer. Which is yes. They are.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
The historical and present-day concerns (think Venus Williams pregnancy) lie with white doctors not taking black/POC patients seriously when they say they're in extreme pain (believe it or not, a lot of doctors and nurses think black people have some magical tolerance for pain), prescribing the bare minimum of medication that can lead to complications or death... There's quite a bit more and these are stories a good majority of black people have when it comes to the medical profession. Not every professional is like that but enough of them were and ARE like that that black/POC folks have a deep mistrust.
You can discount them if you want (like some do just because they have never experienced it), but I've had my own experiences as have other black folks I know.
DeepBreath87
Banned
So earlier in this thread, it was said that if unvaccinated people don’t trust science and medicine when it comes to the vaccine, maybe they shouldn’t show up at the hospital to be treated by those professionals they don’t trust. Does that kind of sentiment apply here or is it ok to not trust doctors if you are black because sometimes a doctor is a jerk? Because there are a million stories about shit doctors. If that stops someone from taking care of themselves, they don’t get to blame “structural racism”. The get to blame the person they see in the mirror.
I see we want to carve out an exception though, because it’s hard to be consistent. Suddenly unvaccinated people aren’t idiots anymore. Well, depending on what color their skin is I guess.
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Jaysen
Banned
Who is doing that?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Hopefully this becomes more and more widespread. It would make a serious dent in the amount of cases we see and also put more confidence in consumers to go out and about if they know that businesses are requiring vaccinations.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
It seems like everyone is losing their minds over this and there are very few rational people left. Half the people think you should be stripped of all rights and privileges if you aren't vaccinated and some even now advocating you be turned away at hospitals if you are unvaccinated and get it. And the other half saying very disingenuous stuff like "Why must vaccinated people wear masks if the vaccines work?" and "people who are young and healthy don't really need it."
I don't understand how this is so hard to grasp. No, you should not be turned away from a hospital if you're ill. It's the duty of doctors to treat sick patients, and not all unvaccinated people did it out of spite. This is a social media creation not based on reality. And having kids sit and school and not allowed to talk or turn their heads is barbarism. If you're that paranoid, the kids shouldn't be in school. That isn't going to make a difference. I've seen someone say their school barred kids from talking or turning their heads. Insanity.
And there are breakthrough cases. Vaccinated people can get COVID and can get very sick. It's a lot rarer, but it happens. The vaccine works. Stop being so obtuse with the "Durrr... I thought the vaccine was supposed to work, why must vaccinated people do X, Y, and Z?" And COVID will always be a greater risk to one's health, young or not, than the vaccine. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there who can be asymptomatic with COVID, but have an awful reaction to the vaccine, but it's rare. If we're talking about numbers, chances of an awful reaction to COVID are greater on all demo's than the vaccine. And vaccinated people can still transmit the virus, creating more chances for new variants.
So few people with a measured take on any of this, it's infuriating.
I don't understand how this is so hard to grasp. No, you should not be turned away from a hospital if you're ill. It's the duty of doctors to treat sick patients, and not all unvaccinated people did it out of spite. This is a social media creation not based on reality. And having kids sit and school and not allowed to talk or turn their heads is barbarism. If you're that paranoid, the kids shouldn't be in school. That isn't going to make a difference. I've seen someone say their school barred kids from talking or turning their heads. Insanity.
And there are breakthrough cases. Vaccinated people can get COVID and can get very sick. It's a lot rarer, but it happens. The vaccine works. Stop being so obtuse with the "Durrr... I thought the vaccine was supposed to work, why must vaccinated people do X, Y, and Z?" And COVID will always be a greater risk to one's health, young or not, than the vaccine. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there who can be asymptomatic with COVID, but have an awful reaction to the vaccine, but it's rare. If we're talking about numbers, chances of an awful reaction to COVID are greater on all demo's than the vaccine. And vaccinated people can still transmit the virus, creating more chances for new variants.
So few people with a measured take on any of this, it's infuriating.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
This is an extreme over-exaggeration. There is no way in hell that "half" of anyone supports people getting stripped of all their rights. And the idea that unvaccinated people should be turned away from hospitals is even more isolated and absurd than the first one. Nobody is going to be turned away from a hospital. It defeats the entire purpose of having a hospital.
Turn off Twitter and turn on the news.
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RAÏSanÏa
Member
There are people with serious emergency conditions other than covid reportedly being turned away from hospitals due to overcrowding from unvaccinated covid admissions taking up staff and beds.
That is going to create some serious friction. Who is causing the problem?
Here in BC no one is being stripped of rights or turned away.
The Vaccination card is to help everyone who is vaccinated(the vast majority) live a normal life during this wave without worrying of infecting the unvaccinated and overcrowding hospitals(28 per 100,000 vs 2 per 100,000[vaccinated])
August 23rd vaccination rates:
Most everyone is ready to move forward and go back to normal activities. Need to let them without letting the unvaccinated hold everyone back.
Vaccination card doesn't apply to <12
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I think you're overstating the extremes here.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
You are missing the point. Yes that can work for an individual, the food pyramid can work for an individual, keto can work for an individual, a calorie restricted diet still with junk food can work for an individual.
Think about the mechanics of your 'simple' solution. First you have to actually get a nation of people to change their eating habits wholesale. No-one has come close to getting them to change them even a little bit through policy. Then you will of course have people just eating pounds of fried potatoes, steak and a single broccoli floret. Think about how you would even begin to mandate that. But If you even somehow magic that change up, you have just closed all the bars all the restaurants all the movie theaters in the nation, and killed several huge corporations, with a whole multitude of other unforseen knock-on effects.
Versus persuading people to take 15 minutes to get a vaccine.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
The news is essentially social media at this point.
I probably should have used the term "one side of the aisle" instead of "half" but regardless, it does seem like there aren't nearly as many out there with nuanced feelings on the subject.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
This still doesn't honestly make sense. 'I distrust doctors so I am not going to let a nurse give me a vaccination that will help massively reduce my need to .... see a doctor.' It's an explanation of why we might see a difference across demographics ( although if you controlled for income I bet the disparity would disappear), it's still flawed reasoning.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
There are.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
That would have been bullshit as well. I am left as left gets and I don't support either of the things you just listed.
And no social media is not the news. That is ridiculous.
Jaysen
Banned
Well yeah, he wouldn’t have had an argument without the insane hyperbole.
synchronicity
Member
Sure. I get that. But the idea behind both things is government intervention in the realm of - what ought to be - personal choice.
I always like to simplify/reduce things. Let's imagine that the entirety of society, the whole population, was 500 people. (or any small arbitrary number) When we look at things from this scale, it's painfully clear (at least to me) that no one has the right to dictate personal behavior to another, and anyone would be within their rights as a living being to resist such compulsion because such compulsion is, whatever the label, invariably a form of violence. Vaccine mandates are no different from my perspective. Force is not the way to operate in my view.
Thesuffering79
Banned
I shoulda said under 19s. AFAIK only one child under 19 died with covid here in Australia and that child died because of meningitis as recorded in the stats. If it doesn't happen to kids under that age then maybe kids at that age should the virus and be 6x more resistant the virus in future than the vaccine?
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
From what I've seen it's just as extreme, but I really don't watch any news as much anymore.
Are you saying there are people on the news with a nuanced opinion on it? A lot of the people on social media with these extreme takes are news people. I've seen several in the industry advocate for mandatory vaccinations approved by the government.
Is there anyone you like in particular who's been balanced? I've only found those people on podcasts.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
So you say that social media is basically the news in your opinion, but then admit you don't even watch the actual news anymore?
Dude. Listen to what you are saying.
DeepBreath87
Banned
You’re afraid to go to the pool fully vaccinated.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
Wuhan lab leak theory: How Fort Detrick became a centre for Chinese conspiracies
Apparent Chinese propaganda efforts are spreading ahead of a US report on Covid-19 origins.
www.bbc.com
my Chinese colleagues talk about this shit all the time lol
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
"Voluntarily ill"? What is that supposed to mean?
It is a fact that if it weren't for COVID, our hospitals wouldn't be overflowing right now and for much of 2020.
Eliminating a virus can be done. There is precedent for it. It just requires logistics. I am protected as an individual, but a society is comprised of more than just myself and the protection that a vaccination confers is more effective the more people in a community take it.
You're also ignoring the previous points of contention:
Are 400,000 deaths in the USA alone in one year that can be directly attributed to one disease be classified as a "danger"? Yes or no.
If COVID didn't exist, and in the absence of any other extraordinary event, would our hospitals be overflowing right now? Yes or no.
Did COVID kill more people in 2020 than the flu did on average in previous years, by an order of magnitude? Yes or no.
synchronicity
Member
Eat shit...don't move...continue over time...voluntarily ill. If all those who choose to make themselves sick through diet and sedentary lifestyle did not do so, there would be much more space within our hospitals.
Yes, I agree that covid is a danger. No I do not agree that government should have any involvement in what any of us choose to do in regards to this virus.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
For one, I think you're taking this way too seriously and literally and in modern age of technology you don't really need to watch anything live to get a sense of what's going on.
You really think news networks are better than social media? CNN had one of their anchors fake coming out of quarantine for the first time when the dude was caught out and about plenty of times before then. This is the type of stuff that exists on the news today.
The news isn't what it used to be. The industry is desperate for ratings more than it's ever been and will do whatever it takes to get eyeballs, they've long stopped caring about non-partisanship.
I think half of your statement was right: "Get off social media" but the follow up shouldn't have been "and watch the news" because it's as much of a joke as social media at this point.
But like I asked, if there are news shows out there that are offering measure and insightful takes, please share and I'll tune in and check them out.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
You are comparing the status quo to a virus that appeared out of nowhere.
Do you understand the difference between the sociological nature of lifestyle differences versus the virological and contagious aspect of a global pandemic and why these things aren't equivalent?
Do you understand the gigantic gulf in effort that corresponds to a "don't be fat" lifestyle change versus "get a shot"?
Was being fat a direct cause of our hospitals filling up in 2019?
Was COVID a direct cause of our hospitals filling up in 2020 and 2021?
Did COVID kill more people in 2020 than the flu did on average in previous years, by an order of magnitude? Yes or no.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
bro the problem is that you are conflating CNN with news. These networks are entertainment with current events designed to attract as many viewers as possible to sell car ads. If you want news go to Reuters or AP, but you won't-- because you don't actually want news. Stop blaming "news" -- it's still there, better than ever. Blame yourself.
Chankoras
Member
What kind of involvement is the government doing to prevent you from exercising your choices?
You can choose not to be vaccinated, what you can't do is expose others.
synchronicity
Member
You're certainly no autocrat wannabe, lol. You obviously think this is a clear cut right/wrong scenario. You are convinced of it, and so you think that anyone who doesn't share your perspective needs to be convinced of the error of their ways.
I've explained my perspective in a variety of ways - ways in which you don't see eye to eye. Nothing wrong with that. But you keep rephrasing things as if I don't understand that people are and have been dying from covid. Yes, I do know, and no I do not think that warrants mandatory vaccinations. You are free to feel differently, and you can point to evidence that you believe "proves" the justification for mandatory vaccinations, but that position is a matter of opinion. We've discussed (not just you and me) the variety of ways people die, including covid, and what should or should not be done about it ad nauseam in this thread. We don't not all feel the same way about it, despite the fact that it is a serious virus. I don't know where to go from here. You don't agree with my points, and I most certainly don't agree with your position. (I'm not talking about some of the facts, but the position that we all ought to be vaccinated.)
Things are encroaching towards mandates it seems. As of the moment, I'm free to go about my business. Granted, I don't know how things are going to play out. As to the second comment, even the vaccinated are at risk of exposing others.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
And that has literally nothing to do with anything I said in that post, but I thank you for your usual minimal contribution I guess?
Chankoras
Member
You're right about the vaccinated also infectious, but you need to consider is the liabilities or legal risk exposures of governments and private sectors for not taking necessary precautions whatever they might be by law to mitigate damage.
synchronicity
Member
Yes, I understand that there are a lot of dynamics at play, and many are concerned, and understandably so. I don't deny the complexities surrounding this situation. It's a delicate situation in more ways than one.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Already been posted.
RAÏSanÏa
Member
This did get me thinking of the wild shit that gets thrown around.
When I first started posting in this thread it was related to the loosening of restrictions in various regions in the Summer. Delta was distant and maybe contained. "Highly transmissible" was attention getting.
Got worried for Alberta kids over the direction of their pandemic response and the dropping of all testing,tracing, isolating with complete removal of restrictions weeks in advance.
Learned about various US State responses in the thread. How vvaccinated can carry Delta viral load without getting bad symptoms.
Seemed easy to make a connection that unvaxxed were at very serious risk since they can develop more serious symptoms from heavier viral loads. That a massive amount of vaxxed running around as asymptomatic or low sypmtom viral geysers the danger became easily mapped.
Folk medicine Fallibilism.
I posted an alarming post about children being the most vulnerable due to lack of vaccine and that restrictions needed to stay.
The response was like a Cassandra Complex.
Over a few weeks in the thread learned more about regional responses, how people on the ground think, made several connections on the North America pinboard of pandemic responses that were similar to Alberta's plan. I last mentioned Tennessee.
Looking again today
It's good that Alberta reversed course. Though their credibility is badly wounded. It'll be up to them to get that straightened. They're under watch.
Why was I right and so many people wrong when they guessed at wild shit?
Fallibilism, partly.
Maybe it's more a result of the application of it being guided by genuinely looking out for my neighbour, not myself.
Am I my brother's keeper?
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
I don't know, I just wanted to apologize, I flew off the handle there and basically insulted you. Working in or even adjacent to healthcare these days can cause one to get riled up far beyond what is appropriate.
CAB_Life
Member
Where do you think this rationally leads? Are you so gullible as to believe that the State will surrender this level of authority once the pandemic has “passed”? When will that period occur? We’re currently told that herd immunity is a myth, which implies Covid and its associated pressures can and will endure in perpetuity. (We’ve already known the virus will be around forever, but the measures are another matter.) Historically, crises have been used to attain ”emergency measures” authority, and those powers have yet to be rescinded in almost every case. The below gives you a general oversight of the use of emergency measures in NA. Do note the permanent policies that were spun in accordance with the majority of these measures.
North American emergencies: The use of emergency powers in Canada and the United States
Abstract. Although the United States and Canada have had quite different constitutional frameworks, their uses of emergency powers through most of the nine
academic.oup.com
The next step will be mandatory vaccination to enter any public space. I’d like to be wrong, but I doubt I will be.
CertifiedKiwi
Member
V
in case you missed it. It said vacations not vaccination.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I don't think people are telling us this. I think you might be confusing herd immunity with eradication.
funkygunther
Banned
Thesuffering79
Banned
Herd immunity is possible with other viruses but it is impossible with coronaviruses. That is because the coronavirus can jump from human to animal and back.
Jaysen
Banned
I get that reference.