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[12Goblins]

 

[poppabk]

Herd immunity is possible with other viruses but it is impossible with coronaviruses. That is because the coronavirus can jump from human to animal and back.

I saw the link from the oxford guy above. Guess it really depends on what you mean by herd immunity - if you hit 99% either vaccinated or recovered from an infection, I think that 1% will be pretty unlikely to come in contact with someone with a transmissible infection in day to day life.

 

[DeepBreath87]

he was nice and polite to everyone, I bet he changed everyone’s mind

Yeah, he should’ve called them stupid assholes who deserve to die. That would’ve definitely worked. Or at the very least it would’ve satisfied this weird fascination with being a cunt to people by flexing moral superiority. It certainly would’ve accomplished that if nothing else.

 

[funkygunther]

Yeah, he should’ve called them stupid assholes who deserve to die. That would’ve definitely worked. Or at the very least it would’ve satisfied this weird fascination with being a cunt to people by flexing moral superiority. It certainly would’ve accomplished that if nothing else.

sure would bro

 

[Nobody_Important]

South Dakota Leads U.S. in COVID Case Increase, With 312 Percent Rise

South Dakota's rising rates come just over a week after the end of the10-day Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, which was attended by an estimated 525,000 people.

www.newsweek.com

Fucking idiots. The exact same thing happened last year. They learned nothing. Either that or they just didn't care.

 

[12Goblins]

^its kind of like our own special Olympics

 

[Nobody_Important]

^its kind of like our own special Olympics

At least it was outdoors though. Outdoor events aren't a danger!


Or something like that. I forget how the excuse goes.

 

[12Goblins]

I mean, these people think God will just sort of take care of things, that way they don't have to take any accountability or feel shame for the hurt they've done. Taliban level thinking going on; keep dying, learn nothing

 

[MisterFalcon]

South Dakota Leads U.S. in COVID Case Increase, With 312 Percent Rise

South Dakota's rising rates come just over a week after the end of the10-day Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, which was attended by an estimated 525,000 people.

www.newsweek.com

Fucking idiots. The exact same thing happened last year. They learned nothing. Either that or they just didn't care.

Percentage increases don't say that much. If you get your state back to zero cases and one case is reported that's an increase of infinite percent. Every state had an infinite percent rise at one point in 2020 with their first cases.

A month ago, SD had 31 covid cases per million and now they have 274.
The US as a whole went from 157 to 453 cases per million. If the rate of growth stays the same for SD then they will be the most infected state in no time but it's not nearly there yet. Last year's Sturgis bump was a minor one, peaking at 354 cases per million.

 

[dcll]

At least it was outdoors though. Outdoor events aren't a danger!


Or something like that. I forget how the excuse goes.

According to Nancy Pelosi and her lavish donor gathering I just saw, none were wearing masks other than the lowly staff and crowded together. She is super catholic so her faith with protect her I’m sure

 

[Nobody_Important]

According to Nancy Pelosi and her lavish donor gathering I just saw, none were wearing masks other than the lowly staff and crowded together. She is super catholic so her faith with protect her I’m sure

That is also incredibly stupid. Stupidity is not exclusive to any political spectrum.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[vpance]

Never ending Aussie mask police drama

 

[Jaysen]

That is also incredibly stupid. Stupidity is not exclusive to any political spectrum.

It’s not hard to tell which people are stupidly playing politics. For any rational intelligent person, something that is demonstrably dumb by someone in one party is equally as dumb when committed by someone in the other. Politics have no place in a public health crisis.

 

[Nobody_Important]

It’s not hard to tell which people are stupidly playing politics. For any rational intelligent person, something that is demonstrably dumb by someone in one party is equally as dumb when committed by someone in the other. Politics have no place in a public health crisis.

And neither does race, but we seem to keep going down that road as well every once and while for some reason.

 

[FunkMiller]

sure would bro

Moral superiority bro fist.

 

[synchronicity]

Some of you posters would make the most wooden of musicians. And forget about playing/writing/appreciating jazz where any degree of improvisation/nuance/subtlety is involved. "The notes are right there on the page! It's literally in black and white!"

Oh, well. It takes all types to make the world go round as they say. Love to all.

 

[Nobody_Important]

COVID shuts down Texas oil town 100 miles from nearest ICU beds

Iraan, a small oilfield town in west Texas, has seen nearly half of the town's 1,200 people affected by COVID-19, and the school has shut down.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Rentahamster]

Herd immunity is possible with other viruses but it is impossible with coronaviruses. That is because the coronavirus can jump from human to animal and back.

Did you form this opinion with input from the experts you don't trust or the experts you do trust?

 

[Rentahamster]

This one is misleading. They are comparing breakthrough infections from the delta variant with unvaccinated infections in early 2020 when the delta variant didn't exist in Vietnam yet. The first case of the delta variant in Vietnam wasn't detected until April 2021.

The viral load of the delta variant is orders of magnitudes higher than previous variants, so even vaccinated people infected with the delta variant would probably still experience higher viral loads compared to unvaccinated people last year infected with the original strain or alpha.

 

[DeepBreath87]

This one is misleading. They are comparing breakthrough infections from the delta variant with unvaccinated infections in early 2020 when the delta variant didn't exist in Vietnam yet. The first case of the delta variant in Vietnam wasn't detected until April 2021.

The viral load of the delta variant is orders of magnitudes higher than previous variants, so even vaccinated people infected with the delta variant would probably still experience higher viral loads compared to unvaccinated people last year infected with the original strain or alpha.

You might be right. But you’re operating on assumption there. “Probably” is not a substitute for actual data.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Rentahamster]

You might be right. But you’re operating on assumption there. “Probably” is not a substitute for actual data.

What substitute? That is the data. It's in figure 2 of the original paper https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3897733

We have observed delta infections have as much as 1000 times the viral loads of previous strains. The CDC has said that viral loads in breakthough delta cases are similar to unvaccinated cases, and the data from Singapore shows that to be true at least in the early days.

If anything, the fact that the breakthrough delta infection viral loads are not 1000 times more should be a good sign in favor of the vaccine's efficacy.

 

[Rentahamster]

Why is it that so many people who justify their anti-vaccination position do so with bad math?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Why is it that so many people who justify their anti-vaccination position do so with bad math?

Because so many anti-vaxers are just stupid.

 

[funkygunther]

Why is it that so many people who justify their anti-vaccination position do so with bad math?

and bad literary references

 

[12Goblins]

mate you should probably use that incredible foresight of yours to figure out why you've lost all your friends ಥ‿ಥ

 

[12Goblins]

Did you form this opinion with input from the experts you don't trust or the experts you do trust?

you pick and choose. it's the "do your own research" buffet ( ´◡‿ゝ◡`)

 

[12Goblins]

 

[DeepBreath87]

What substitute? That is the data. It's in figure 2 of the original paper https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3897733

We have observed delta infections have as much as 1000 times the viral loads of previous strains. The CDC has said that viral loads in breakthough delta cases are similar to unvaccinated cases, and the data from Singapore shows that to be true at least in the early days.

If anything, the fact that the breakthrough delta infection viral loads are not 1000 times more should be a good sign in favor of the vaccine's efficacy.

This is what I’m focusing on:

---

Breakthrough Delta variant infections are associated with high viral loads,
44 prolonged PCR positivity, and low levels of vaccine-induced neutralizing antibodies,
45 explaining the transmission between the vaccinated people. Physical distancing measures
46 remain critical to reduce SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant transmission.

There appears to be some discrepancy between what studies are showing for the viral load of the delta variant. Here is Reuters saying it’s 300x based on a South Korean study. The article didn’t say whether those were breakthrough infections or not.

Delta cases show 300 times higher viral load - S.Korea study

People infected with the more transmissible Delta variant have a viral load 300 times higher than those with the original version of the COVID-19 virus, when symptoms are first observed, a South Korea study found.

www.reuters.com

However here is them referencing a Chinese study that does say 1000x

People with allergic reaction to mRNA vaccines can get 2nd dose; Delta viral load over 1,000 times higher

The following is a roundup of some of the latest scientific studies on the novel coronavirus and efforts to find treatments and vaccines for COVID-19.

www.reuters.com

 

[Chaplain]

Professor [of Medicine at Stanford University] Jay Bhattacharya is one of the famous voices to have emerged out of the pandemic. A vocal critic of lockdowns, his name became synonymous with the controversial Great Barrington Declaration, which called for an “alternative approach to the pandemic” that would entail no lockdowns. Along with co-signatories Sunetra Gupta and Martin Kulldforff, the trio argued that public health strategies should instead centre on the ‘focused protection’ of at-risk groups while keeping society as open as possible so the healthy parts of the population could build herd immunity. The declaration triggered a huge global debate, with critics arguing that many more lives would have been lost on account of the difficulty of shielding all those who were vulnerable. During this week’s interview, Freddie Sayers challenged Prof Bhattacharya on what would have happened if his strategy was adopted, whether he has changed his mind in retrospect, and how his ‘focused protection’ have would worked with waning immunity and new variants?

 

[Star-Lord]

So you recall the other day I had a run-in with my first proper anti-vax campaigner? Today I had my first proper run-in with a genuine COVID denier. Claims the entire pandemic has been set up by the worlds govermments as a means to initiate a global culling of the worlds population. I didn't know how to respond to that.

 

[FunkMiller]

and bad literary references

I personally cannot wait to have a rat cage strapped to my face in twelve months.

 

[Rentahamster]

This is what I’m focusing on:


There appears to be some discrepancy between what studies are showing for the viral load of the delta variant. Here is Reuters saying it’s 300x based on a South Korean study. The article didn’t say whether those were breakthrough infections or not.

Delta cases show 300 times higher viral load - S.Korea study

People infected with the more transmissible Delta variant have a viral load 300 times higher than those with the original version of the COVID-19 virus, when symptoms are first observed, a South Korea study found.

www.reuters.com

However here is them referencing a Chinese study that does say 1000x

People with allergic reaction to mRNA vaccines can get 2nd dose; Delta viral load over 1,000 times higher

The following is a roundup of some of the latest scientific studies on the novel coronavirus and efforts to find treatments and vaccines for COVID-19.

www.reuters.com

What about it? This is why the tweet is misleading because it's implying that the cause for the 251-fold increase in viral loads is the vaccine, when in fact it is most likely because the delta strain has a higher viral load in general, and when the study made no such implication between a link between the vaccination itself and higher viral loads. Breakthrough infections are associated with low levels of vaccine-induced antibodies which would suggest that for whatever reason, some people's vaccination protection wasn't that good, or it waned over time. Everyone's different, so things like that can happen.

If there was data that suggests unvaccinated people with delta have lower viral loads than vaccinated people with delta, that would support the tweet, but there is none of that. In fact, the data that is out there now shows that viral loads are similar in both groups at the outset, and are lesser in vaccinated groups as time goes on.

 

[thefool]

This is a terrific interview btw.

 

[DeepBreath87]

What about it? This is why the tweet is misleading because it's implying that the cause for the 251-fold increase in viral loads is the vaccine, when in fact it is most likely because the delta strain has a higher viral load in general, and when the study made no such implication between a link between the vaccination itself and higher viral loads. Breakthrough infections are associated with low levels of vaccine-induced antibodies which would suggest that for whatever reason, some people's vaccination protection wasn't that good, or it waned over time. Everyone's different, so things like that can happen.

If there was data that suggests unvaccinated people with delta have lower viral loads than vaccinated people with delta, that would support the tweet, but there is none of that. In fact, the data that is out there now shows that viral loads are similar in both groups at the outset, and are lesser in vaccinated groups as time goes on.

The tweet is the tweet. But your statement saying well delta has 1,000x viral loads for unvaccinated vs 250x viral for vaccinated people isn’t really painting the whole picture either. There is one study that says delta infections are 300x. That’s a relatively wide range 300 to 1000. We have one study here on breakthrough shows infections. It’s not entirely unlikely we could see a similarly large range as more studies are done. So it’s hard to say at the point.

I think we should stick to what we know. The vaccines prevent some infections, which wanes over time, at a rate we are still determining. It appears to also prevent severe disease in a more meaningful way and that protection seems more durable.

As the viral loads associated with vaccinated people unvaccinated ones, there is still a lot to learn. I don’t think one study gives us a lot work with considering the range we have seen for studies of delta infections.

If the tweet is meant to deter people from vaccinated, it is foolish. Most of the people in hospital are unvaccinated. People shouldn’t need more information than that.

 

[ManaByte]

With only 2 new COVID patients admitted Monday in L.A. County, hospitalizations appear to level off

In a promising sign that hospitalizations could be leveling off, Los Angeles County reported only two new patients with COVID-19 following four straight days of declines, according to state figures…

ktla.com

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

So you recall the other day I had a run-in with my first proper anti-vax campaigner? Today I had my first proper run-in with a genuine COVID denier. Claims the entire pandemic has been set up by the worlds govermments as a means to initiate a global culling of the worlds population. I didn't know how to respond to that.

I have this friend and he's got a sister that works in the european burocracy. He said his sister told him that everyone in the european instituions believe/knows this was intentional by the chinese to cull their older population.

I found the whole convo very odd.

 

[Rentahamster]

But your statement saying well delta has 1,000x viral loads for unvaccinated vs 250x viral for vaccinated people

That's not what I said.

When I said "up to 1000x" that was a general statement describing both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. I wasn't making a direct comparison between 1000x VL unvaccinated vs 250x VL vaccinated as if those are the only two options.

Why scientists are talking about viral load and the delta variant

What sets delta apart, experts say, is how much virus is produced by those who are infected — a measure known as viral load.

www.nbcnews.com

A study conducted by Chinese researchers that has yet to be peer-reviewed found that people infected with the delta variant had viral loads that were up to 1,260 times higher than the viral loads of individuals infected with the original strain that circulated in 2020.

Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 Infections, including COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 outbreaks associated with ...

www.cdc.gov

Although the assay used in this investigation was not validated to provide quantitative results, there was no significant difference between the Ct values of samples collected from breakthrough cases and the other cases. This might mean that the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 is also similar. However, microbiological studies are required to confirm these findings.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

• Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to be infectious for a shorter period: Previous variants typically produced less virus in the body of infected fully vaccinated people (breakthrough infections) than in unvaccinated people. In contrast, the Delta variant seems to produce the same high amount of virus in both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like other variants, the amount of virus produced by Delta breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people also goes down faster than infections in unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people are likely infectious for less time than unvaccinated people.

Virological and serological kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant vaccine-breakthrough infections: a multi-center cohort study

Objectives Highly effective vaccines against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) have been developed but variants of concerns (VOCs) with mutations in the spike protein are worrisome, especially B.1.617.2 (Delta) which has rapidly spread across the world. We aim to study...

www.medrxiv.org

PCR cycle threshold (Ct) values were similar between both vaccinated and unvaccinated groups at diagnosis, but viral loads decreased faster in vaccinated individuals. Early, robust boosting of anti-spike protein antibodies was observed in vaccinated patients, however, these titers were significantly lower against B.1.617.2 as compared with the wildtype vaccine strain.

Conclusion The mRNA vaccines are highly effective at preventing symptomatic and severe COVID-19 associated with B.1.617.2 infection. Vaccination is associated with faster decline in viral RNA load and a robust serological response. Vaccination remains a key strategy for control of COVID-19 pandemic.

There is one study that says delta infections are 300x. That’s a relatively wide range 300 to 1000. We have one study here on breakthrough shows infections. It’s not entirely unlikely we could see a similarly large range as more studies are done. So it’s hard to say at the point.

Yes I know, but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making, because my point doesn't hinge on the exact value of the multiplier in either vaccinated or unvaccinated groups. My point only hinges on the fact that delta viral loads are in general greater than the variants from last year.

i.e. delta viral loads are larger than last year's strains and respond differently to the vaccines, so comparing breakthrough (delta) infections from this year with (non-delta) infections from last year is not an accurate comparison, therefore the tweet is misleading.

I think we should stick to what we know.

I think so too, which is why I'm using what I know and what's been demonstrated by data to show that the tweet in question is misleading and trying to paint a picture of the vaccinations that the cited study itself is not even saying.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Rentahamster]

I have this friend and he's got a sister that works in the european burocracy. He said his sister told him that everyone in the european instituions believe/knows this was intentional by the chinese to cull their older population.

I found the whole convo very odd.

You should ask your friend to cross check his insider information with his uncle who works at Nintendo.

 

[Star-Lord]

I have this friend and he's got a sister that works in the european burocracy. He said his sister told him that everyone in the european instituions believe/knows this was intentional by the chinese to cull their older population.

I found the whole convo very odd.

Please tell me your friend's sister doesn't believe it.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

You should ask your friend to cross check his insider information with his uncle who works at Nintendo.

Please tell me your friend's sister doesn't believe it.

I've known this guy for years and see him often. I doubt he's making shit up - he comes from a family that has a lot of people in academia, business, high civil servants, etc.

I am not even saying this is true, just that bureocrats in the european union believe it is.

 

[Star-Lord]

I've known this guy for years and see him often. I doubt he's making shit up - he comes from a family that has a lot of people in academia, business, high civil servants, etc.

I am not even saying this is true, just that bureocrats in the european union believe it is.

I wasn't implying you were lying. Apologies if it came across that way.

I can believe the EU thinking it was man-made in China. Hell, even Trump referred to it as 'The China Virus' every time he spoke about Covid, so it wouldn't surprise me if his European counterparts followed suit.

 

[Rentahamster]

I've known this guy for years and see him often. I doubt he's making shit up - he comes from a family that has a lot of people in academia, business, high civil servants, etc.

I am not even saying this is true, just that bureocrats in the european union believe it is.

It's not necessarily about your level of confidence in him. There's several layers of hearsay at work.

1. You have to accept that your friend didn't mishear or is making shit up or is interpreting the information wrong.
2. You have to accept that your friend's sister didn't mishear or is making shit up or is interpreting the information wrong.
3. You have to accept that "everyone" is an accurate description of whom his sister is speaking to. I doubt she talked to "everyone" about this issue.

The game of telephone is a tricky one with two participants, let alone 3 or more.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I wasn't implying you were lying. Apologies if it came across that way.

I can believe the EU thinking it was man-made in China. Hell, even Trump referred to it as 'The China Virus' every time he spoke about Covid, so it wouldn't surprise me if his European counterparts followed suit.

That sounds reasonable.

It's not necessarily about your level of confidence in him. There's several layers of hearsay at work.

1. You have to accept that your friend didn't mishear or is making shit up or is interpreting the information wrong.
2. You have to accept that your friend's sister didn't mishear or is making shit up or is interpreting the information wrong.
3. You have to accept that "everyone" is an accurate description of whom his sister is speaking to. I doubt she talked to "everyone" about this issue.

The game of telephone is a tricky one with two participants, let alone 3 or more.

Come on...

 

[poppabk]

I've already posted links for the REACT data that shows that vaccinated people carry lower viral load than unvaccinated, majority in both cases having Delta.

 

[Rentahamster]

Come on...

What? The level of confidence decreases the more levels there are in a second-hand chain of information. That's the case for anything.

Your friend could be totally right. However, wouldn't your confidence level be higher if "everyone" in the European institutions told you this directly? As opposed to hearing this second hand from your friend who heard about this second hand, from his sister who heard about this second hand?

 

[poppabk]

Anything but natural origins or accidental lab leak doesn't make sense. You really think the Chinese would be stupid enough to deliberately release their bat coronavirus a couple of blocks from the Wuhan Institute of Virology famous for its bat coronavirus studies?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

What? The level of confidence decreases the more levels there are in a second-hand chain of information. That's the case for anything.

Your friend could be totally right. However, wouldn't your confidence level be higher if "everyone" in the European institutions told you this directly? As opposed to hearing this second hand from your friend who heard about this second hand, from his sister who heard about this second hand?

I just relayed a personal event. No need to debunk me.

I got my second shot today.