TheDreadBaron
Member
Who is meant to be the expert in this case, me? I said I don't know but related some data presented by people smarter than me that you're free to investigate.
don't forget anticoagulants as well!
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Cyberpunkd
Member
Yes, we do. It's called clinical trials and they cost fuckton of money to do. All the medicines and vaccines go through them. And all are put on the market after passing the trials. There is not a single 'let's get ok for our medicine, but chill for 5 years actually administering it'. How do you plan to study 'long-term effects' exactly if not by - wait for it - administering the medicine?
All the miracle drugs you mentioned - I thought we were past that? Reminds me of cancer patients refusing chemo because of some herb that is supposed to make them better. Spoiler: they die.
Cyberpunkd
Member
If you don't know then rely on scientific consensus where the overwhelming majority of medical professionals deem the vaccines safe or at least overwhelming benefit vs. risk ratio. The argument reminds me of minuscule evidence that there is a God somehow making both sides of the argument equally valid. Kinda like 'both sides' scenario.
Thesuffering79
Banned
How can you make that claim when vaccines haven't been out for years? The problem isnt that they are safe now but if they are safe 10 years down the line. Because vaccines have a permanent effect on your body, if there is something bad, there is no way top know if something bad will happen down the line. We only recently have the warning on vaccines that they can cause hart problems in young males. What else will we learn in the future?
Cyberpunkd
Member
Again - how do you plan to test for that? Give a shot to a control group and the whole word just take a pause for 10 years and raging Covid?
Let me try to put this the other way - do you imagine this scenario occurring when polio vaccine was developed? 'Nah, let's just go slow, we don't know the long term effects of the vaccine'. Silly, isn't it?
betrayal
Banned
This study has is meaningless because it has many flaws.
Here are some of them:
- Median age: 46
- Comorbidities: 137 out of 312 (44%)
- "Hospitalized patients were older than home-isolated patients, had higher body mass index (BMI) and had more comorbidities, including chronic lung disease, chronic heart disease, hypertension and diabetes."
- Symptoms were asked via interview; no clinical examinations
- Important in such studies: The participants were not randomly selected, but could decide for themselves whether to participate -> strong bias of the results, since people are more likely to participate if they are anxious and/or have psychosomatic problems
- One main sympton is fatigue -> "Data from Norway have previously shown slightly lower chronic fatigue prevalence (11%) in the general population24 than in the present household controls (14%)" -> according to a study fatigue without covid is already at 11% in the population
TL;DR: If you compare the symptoms of "Long Covid" with those of the population (without "Long Covid"), the numbers dwindle sharply and are largely normal statistical fluctuations.
This constant mixing of all people (fat, pre-existing conditions, age, young & fat, young & fit etc.), although there are clearly EXTREME differences, distorts the results enormously.
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TheDreadBaron
Member
The first 200,000 doses of the polio vaccine gave 40,000 people polio. Have fun beta testing vaccines for billion dollar corporations (who are absolved of any responsibility).
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TheDreadBaron
Member
Also, this cracks me up. You're taking proclamations from on high as the gospel truth. There is no "scientific consensus" on the safety of the vaccines, just official PR. As had been pointed out countless times, it's literally impossible for anyone to know if problems will show up down the road and you are correct no there is no way to test that. You've decided to believe one story that says it's safe. I'm remaining skeptical because I thought it through for a second and realized no one could possibly know if it's safe long term.
Raven117
Member
Don't feel weird. You are following the cdc guidelines. Besides, it's your choice from here on out. You want to wear one for life, do it and eff everyone else.I think I might be the last unvaccinated person still wearing a mask inside stores. starting to feel weird
M. Crassus
Member
The numbers they're using are from the Netherlands. Currently, according to the source they used, there are 409 deaths after vaccination (mind you, these are all deaths that occurred shortly after vaccination - not necessarily caused by it). Of those 409, 259 were older than 80 and 109 were between 65 and 79 (most of them on the older end of that spectrum). That's 368 frail, old people that would've almost certainly died from the virus itself too, which they will get eventually in an unvaccinated society without a constant lockdown.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Disappointing to see their numbers rise again. Definitely worth paying attention to for the next couple of months to see how it goes.
I know a lot of people were hoping their vaccination program had it beat, but we also have to keep in mind that their numbers basically exactly the same as they were at this point in time last year, so we can't rule out some degree of seasonality.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
What's funny about these hyperventilating, reactionary political Twitter tirades is that they never stop to think things through for a second. Yea, there's no evidence it has any affect on reproduction (what a wide net to cast) issues because we just started and barely any young people have gotten it. But beyond that, and obviously (humorously), who said it had any kind of that effect on reproduction in the first place? What are they even talking about?
This is just more conspiracy theory nonsense where someone made something up ("the vaccine is affecting the reproductive abilities of young people, even though there's no evidence and we couldn't know this for years to come! Why? Because I said so! Click like and subscribe and buy my book!").
Just fucking dumb shit. I look forward to this pandemic being behind us so I don't have to see such negative IQ tweets anymore. They'll move onto something else of course but I really just want to stop seeing it in regards to COVID-19.
TheDreadBaron
Member
I think people are just asking the question how could anyone know the long term effects?
They can't, so when someone says it's safe for children they are talking out of their ass because no one knows yet.
DeepBreath87
Banned
I think the concern would be that by the time we found out, it would be too late. Normally these things are studied prior to the vaccine being widely distributed. We all know this isn't normal times. But the idea that authorities are basically misleading people about what they know and don't know is concerning. We hear a lot about how the vaccine is safe and everything is fine. Maybe it is. But there is a lot we don't know that is just a function of the vaccines being new and not studied over time. I don't think that is being communicated very well to the public.
Then there is the idea we are coercing people to get the vaccine. Even people at minimal risk to the virus itself. If we did find out down the road there was some kind of consequence to the virus we aren't aware of now, it would be an atrocity to think people were forced to get it or be expelled from school, for instance.
I don't have any real fears about the vaccines, but I know there is plenty we don't know. The heart inflammation stuff is a good example of that. Hopefully it's the last as well.
pel1300
Member
Sounds similar to people who convinced their FB friends to comply with lockdowns in March 2020 and continue to this day to double down on.I don't want to throw shade at anyone in particular in this thread but I think there is a real problem in this discussion in general where vaccinated people have a huge inherent motivation to believe it's safe. The only people in my life that have actively pressured me to get vaccinated are people that have been vaccinated themselves. It would be exceedingly difficult to admit you had taken a vaccine that may not be as safe as you thought it was, and had gotten your children vaccinated too, and convinced your reluctant spouse to get vaccinated.
And maybe none of your family experienced any negative side effects from the vaccine, that's great for you hypothetical person. But hypothetical person, it would take a whole lot to convince you that you had put your whole family in danger because you trusted the official information which seemed totally reasonable at the time.
I don't see any solution for this conundrum, it's just especially insidious because unlike a bad idea you can't just drop your support for a vaccine you already have taken.
Covid gender gap widens as cases surge in Scotland
One expert suggests younger men meeting up to watch the Euro 2020 football tournament is behind the increase.
www.bbc.com
FunkMiller
Banned
Sydney in full lockdown. This is what happens when you don't get enough vaccines, and you get vaccine hesitancy among those who can have it. Australia embarrassing itself massively.
FunkMiller
Banned
I don't want to throw shade at anyone in particular in this thread but I think there is a real problem in this discussion in general where vaccinated people have a huge inherent motivation to believe it's safe. The only people in my life that have actively pressured me to get vaccinated are people that have been vaccinated themselves. It would be exceedingly difficult to admit you had taken a vaccine that may not be as safe as you thought it was, and had gotten your children vaccinated too, and convinced your reluctant spouse to get vaccinated.
And maybe none of your family experienced any negative side effects from the vaccine, that's great for you hypothetical person. But hypothetical person, it would take a whole lot to convince you that you had put your whole family in danger because you trusted the official information which seemed totally reasonable at the time.
I don't see any solution for this conundrum, it's just especially insidious because unlike a bad idea you can't just drop your support for a vaccine you already have taken.
Yes, yes, that's right. Everyone who's had the vaccine just wants you to get it so you can share their danger.
What a fucking grim view you have of people.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Why? I looked at worldometer and it doesn't look like they've had any big increase in cases.
FunkMiller
Banned
They've had a very small increase in delta cases, but because they stupidly tried to pursue a zero Covid strategy, they now have zero immunity in the community, and haven't procured anywhere enough vaccines. If delta got out into the community, it would run absolutely rampant… so they have to go back into hard lockdown. Completely avoidable.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Was just going to post and ask WTF is happening in Australia. How big is the percentage of people vaccinated?
FunkMiller
Banned
5%. In one of the world's richest first world countries.
It's currently surging in countries where the majority of the vulnerable population is already vaccinated. Maybe South Africa would be a better comparison point, if cases continue to grow.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I usually just lurk this thread but that number is genuinely shocking. What the hell are they thinking?
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FunkMiller
Banned
They locked down hard last March and dodged the virus more or less completely, but then sat on their hands when the vaccine procurement started, and were way too complacent. Add to that the government panicking for no reason about AstraZeneca, and you get a vaccine hesitant population, with not enough vaccines for those that want it, and a populace with zero herd immunity.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
What a shit show.
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FunkMiller
Banned
Yep. And they seem no closer to even beginning to allow fully vaccinated people in or out... and given how many Australians have family outside the country (mine included), you're starting to get into a potentially psychologically damaging scenario for millions of people. Australia is enormous, but I know a lot of people who are feeling very trapped right now.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
I want to vaccinate but it hasn't even been a year since humans first got these vaccines...
FunkMiller
Banned
Well, the best way you can look at it is that nearly 3 billion doses of the vaccine have now gone into people's arms, with absolutely zero sign of large scale serious side effects. A very, very few people have reacted badly - but that's expected with every single medicine on the planet.
Seriously, it's fine. Pop along and get it, you won't suffer any issues. The odds are astronomically against it.
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TheDreadBaron
Member
Humans are the first creatures to ever receive an mRNA vaccine, never even been tested in animals.
edit: oops, I believe I was mistaken
edit2: Well I don't know what to believe, there's a lot of conflicting info out there, the man that invented the mRNA technology said we are the first creatures to receive it so I guess I'll just go with what he said.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
But, but, but a friend of a friend of my mother's cousin second degree sister was feeling unwell for a day after getting vaccinated - what if they get cancer in 15 years?
Cyberpunkd
Member
It looks like Australia is heading straight into shitstorm.
TheDreadBaron
Member
Maybe you missed Birdo's post about their friend's foot getting chopped off. Do you have any clever thoughts about that? Just unlucky I guess?
Cyberpunkd
Member
Yes, I'm sorry for what happened to him but that doesn't change anything. If I remember correctly one airplane crash was due to a faulty repair performed 20 years prior, nobody is saying we should not fly.
Trogdor1123
Member
Just got my second shot. Pretty glad. Wife is later today.
TheDreadBaron
Member
Very interesting interpretation of what I said. I was thinking about it from the angle of vaccinated people having a blind spot to the potential risks. You interpreted it as vaccinated people knowing full well the risks but wanting me to share in the risk because they already got it.
Somehow I think you accidentally gave me more insight into the psychology
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You should really know better to argue with dismissive people like that. They aren't here for serious discussion.
vpance
Member
Basically unknown at this point. But if you're not in a vulnerable demographic then it's not something you should be worried about. Even if you were there's still things you can do in addition to these vaccines.
IMO it's better to rely on taking your own measures to decrease the overall risk of catching it or getting a severe case. Like taking vitamin D, C, zinc, and quercetin or turmeric. Don't be obese, stuff like that. Just know that the average age of death from covid is like 80, and having 2+ comorbidities. 80% of covid hospitalized are deficient in vitamin D. This will become endemic, no doubt. You can try to stay ahead of the game or lag behind waiting for vaccine protection to catch up.
Finally, there's promising results coming from taking certain therapeutics mentioned these last couple pages. So there's plenty of things we can do for prevention and in treatment. The line doesn't only begin and end with vaccines, as they would like you to believe. After all, you can still get covid even if you're vaccinated. So it's better to know what to do for yourself in that situation, because the only mandated things the current medical system will do for you is tylenols or ventilators.
FunkMiller
Banned
You know what? Never mind 
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TheDreadBaron
Member
I didn't have to invent anything. You're the one who said itYou know what? Never mind
Kev Kev
Member
nothing wrong with not getting it if you dont want to