funkygunther
Banned
"all of liberals"
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"all of liberals"
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
There also a subreddit for people who like celeb feet pics. Doesn't mean you should go around and make assumptions about large swathes of people over it. You can find all kinds of weird and horrible shit on the internet if you go looking for it. But that is a very small number compared to the actual majority opinion. The majority of people left or right of the aisle just wants this to be done. There are differences of opinion on how to accomplish that obviously, but neither sides majority is wishing death on anyone.
In fact as I already pointed out those of us who are pushing for more vaccinations and supporting the mandates is hoping for literally the exact opposite.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Hammy you gotta read between the lines bro. They are clearly hoping that people die in those posts.
The Pleasure
Member
Sunk to this level? That's a bitch move my friend. I believe they said Man up and take your lumps like a man.
Hari Seldon
Member
Yeah it was that one. You posted some of the positive threads but the majority of that subreddit is mocking people who died. It is fucking disgusting. This kind of shit makes me alternate between anger and depression.
QSD
Member
The pretty mundane but still absolutely true answer is that people are irrational. Many will forever be convinced that 9/11 was worse than this pandemic because it felt worse and seemed worse. A lot of what I see here in this thread is people endlessly lamenting the fact that people are irrational and they make decisions based on feelings, when that can't be changed with any skill that we here posses. It's a bit like having a rally against tornadoes really.
QSD
Member
Posting some examples of people who have changed their mind doesn't mean that on the whole this subreddit is not doing a lot of damage, further entrenching the hesitant and foisting social mistrust.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
What makes you think it's all liberals, though? What use is it to analyze this with generalizations about political tribe identity?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
There is no way to tell one way or the other, reliably.
Saying that they're definitely helping or that they're definitely doing a lot of damage isn't able to be substantiated, as all anyone's able to do is cherry pick posts and then say how these posts make them feel. Certain generalizations about the current zeitgeist can be reasonably inferred from the activity, but for the most part, how one feels about this subreddit is mostly a consequence of their emotional state, and not a reflection of what's actually going on. The entirety of the content is an exercise in selection bias sampling.
FunkMiller
Member
Ok, fuck it. Let’s ask you too:
Do you have any empathy for thousands of immunocompromised people who are having to remain shielded, and have lost their freedoms?
And if so, how does that make you feel about the anti-vaxxers responsible for their continued confinement?
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QSD
Member
Sure, it's a very willing subject to project one's own feelings on
All I'm saying is:
Anecdotal Evidence: if it ain't good for ivermectin it ain't good for exonerating the activities of a morally slightly dubious subreddit
FunkMiller
Member
HermabCainAwards and SorryAntiVaxxer are both pretty horrible sites to peruse.
….but more because of the seemingly endless accounts of children being left without parents, and partners being left without loved ones … rather than the somewhat unsavoury schadenfreude being exhibited by people frustrated to see so much needless, stupid death.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Never knew about sorryantivax site. Skimming now. Not surprisingly, most are guys with that redneck vibe to them. Got to hold up that tough guy image to the bitter end.
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12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
i think it's scaring the shit out of even the most staunch anti vaccers tbh which is why it's so effective IMO
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Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Some interesting data on COVID rates here in BC:
Un vaxxed case rate: 133 per 10k
Fully vaxxed: 12.1 per 10k
Hospitalizations for unvaxxed: 185.4 per 100k
Fully vaxxed: 3.3 per 100k
COVID-19 Regional Surveillance Dashboard (bccdc.ca)
The only reason COVID is a thing is because of the large pool of unvaccinated persons keeping this in circulation. They are also responsible for the breakthrough cases we see in vaccinated individuals. If vaccination rates for COVID were at the same level for other diseases like measles, this pandemic would be over.
Un vaxxed case rate: 133 per 10k
Fully vaxxed: 12.1 per 10k
Hospitalizations for unvaxxed: 185.4 per 100k
Fully vaxxed: 3.3 per 100k
COVID-19 Regional Surveillance Dashboard (bccdc.ca)
The only reason COVID is a thing is because of the large pool of unvaccinated persons keeping this in circulation. They are also responsible for the breakthrough cases we see in vaccinated individuals. If vaccination rates for COVID were at the same level for other diseases like measles, this pandemic would be over.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
It's almost as if the vaccine is safe and that it works.
What a shocking development.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Makes sense.
Why is polio virtually stricken from earth when it used to be 100,000s per year long time ago? Everyone jumped on it. And somehow every anti-vaxxer never had issues with it decades ago and now. Now it's basically only in dirt poor countries where it might pop up where they dont have access to it or whatever.
Polio
The world has made great progress against polio and two out of three types of wild poliovirus have been eradicated. This page presents global data and research on polio and the remaining challenges in eradicating the disease.
ourworldindata.org
GPEI-Polio Now
polioeradication.org
I think a bunch of reasons which prevent current day antivaxxers from jumping on like people taking vaccines long time ago or current vaccines at toddler age.
1. Too much social media clouding their heads
2. Covid is something which basically is a you dont get hurt or you die kind of virus. With polio or measles, you got people not only dying but if you survive you can get fucked up legs and spine issues making you basically a walking retard or gross red rashes. Given how much people love social media and image, they surely have no problem with polio or measles vaccines because they dont want to look bad on FB or Instagram
3. Vaccines in general are taken at baby to young kid age. You got no choice really. Your parents will just force it on you. And if you got them, you probably dont even remember anyway unless you have the genius ability to remember vaccines at 2 years old. But with covid coming out of nowhere and just about everyone (except age 12 and under I think being told to hold off), now you got everyone from 18-100 being asked to get it asap. But as an adult, now comes the tough guy image that if they're healthy they dont need it. Ya, a reason why youre healthy at age 40 because you probably got 10 vaccines as a kid already making you feel fine and not a polio victim walking like a peg legged pirate since a kid. So if you take covid vax it'll make it your 11th. Big deal
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Hari Seldon
Member
Of course I have empathy. But unlike you I don't think that anti-vaxxers are a bunch of comic book villains. I'd wager most of them are just poor people, both white and black, who just distrust the shit out of government and media... usually for good reason.
Hari Seldon
Member
No you are right this was an error on my fault. It is not all people. I think most reasonable people are not so off the rails that they would celebrate other people dying.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Possibly.
I'd be interesting to see what other kinds of thing antivaxxers distrust. Here's a bunch off the top of my head as possibilities:
- Prescription drugs
- Other vaccines
- Medical staff like docs, surgeons, paramedics, dentists and nurses
- The drug store pharmacist dishing out the drugs
- Government workers who run the local power and water utilities
- Cops
- Firemen
- Board of education
- Local Ministry of Labour (employment centres)
If someone is poor and distrustful of government, they should probably listen to them and give them a try again. A lot of quality of life processes in life (from schools to healthcare to employment to fire protection) comes from government. If someone wants to be stubborn and be rebel on their own that's their life. But if they want a good standard of living, they better be like Michael Dell being clever while dropping out.
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NoLootBoxDev
Member
Can you imagine this issue during the days of the black death? It would be funny to see all those experts going with these cures now:Makes sense.
Why is polio virtually stricken from earth when it used to be 100,000s per year long time ago? Everyone jumped on it. And somehow every anti-vaxxer never had issues with it decades ago and now. Now it's basically only in dirt poor countries where it might pop up where they dont have access to it or whatever.
Polio
The world has made great progress against polio and two out of three types of wild poliovirus have been eradicated. This page presents global data and research on polio and the remaining challenges in eradicating the disease.GPEI-Polio Now
I think a bunch of reasons which prevent current day antivaxxers from jumping on like people taking vaccines long time ago or current vaccines at toddler age.
1. Too much social media clouding their heads
2. Covid is something which basically is a you dont get hurt or you die kind of virus. With polio or measles, you got people not only dying but if you survive you can get fucked up legs and spine issues making you basically a walking retard or gross red rashes. Given how much people love social media and image, they surely have no problem with polio or measles vaccines because they dont want to look bad on FB or Instagram
3. Vaccines in general are taken at baby to young kid age. You got no choice really. Your parents will just force it on you. And if you got them, you probably dont even remember anyway unless you have the genius ability to remember vaccines at 2 years old. But with covid coming out of nowhere and just about everyone (except age 12 and under I think being told to hold off), now you got everyone from 18-100 being asked to get it asap. But as an adult, now comes the tough guy image that if they're healthy they dont need it. Ya, a reason why youre healthy at age 40 because you probably got 10 vaccines as a kid already making you feel fine and not a polio victim walking like a peg legged pirate since a kid. So if you take covid vax it'll make it your 11th. Big deal
MisterFalcon
Member
For this pandemic there is not. But that list of 3 options presented the third as some ideal 'everyone is free to do X' solution which ignores that if A is free to not get vaccinated that means B is not free to get treated and live life as normal. A and B never actually interact or know the other exists beyond numbers of capacity used but A is taking away B's freedom.
In the future you could come up with a set of conditions for a serious health crisis where treating the people who decline vaccination gets limited to an amount that ensures people who need treatment for other things are not impacted so much. Or make vaccinations a mandatory part of any treatment. It seems like some of the harcore anti vaxxers are already choosing not to go to the hospital as they believe it's the doctors killing people and not covid. This would also solve a lot of the problem the rest of society still has due to the pandemic.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Then look at other countries where people are not paranoid n regards to the government THEY ELECT and see how vaccines are working for them.
Why are Americans incapable of looking outward, what is this BS snowflake American exceptionalism? In France, a country of 70mln we have 50 deaths per day. Daily cases are down to 5000 per day.
Yes, the government basically forced people to get vaccine or sit TF at home. Feel free to calculate how many lives were saved because we didn’t cave to a bunch of weirdos. Yes, they came out to protest, 250k in one day at the peak. But guess what, people saw vaccines are working, number of people in hospital is going down despite Delta being way more contagious. And so the movement floundered .
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Because the US is 330M people and have such different views on politics and lifestyle cross regions. So you'll get a lot of headbutting even among states beside each other.
The US populace is conditioned to be armed, untrusting of gov, and let's face it everyone. The average American vs. typical European or Canadian is a lot more gung ho at fighting back. That fighting spirit that also seems to spread to half the countries in the world with US soldiers, bases and patrolling battleships, even though locally when was the last time an invading country ever tried taking over US soil?
And it's not even foreign invaders all the time. It's the federal government. How many other rich countries have people acting like self policing militia hiding in forests because they think the US Army will take over cities and steal everyone's house?
To sum up. The American style is not liking taking orders from people. Even if it's government trying to trample a viral crisis for the greater good of everyone.
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FunkMiller
Member
So… no actual empathy for the people whose lives are being ruined by anti vaxxers. Really just empathy for people who distrust the government and media.
You basically feel worse for people with paranoia, than you do for people with cancer.
See the issue here?
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You have a point here, but I really doubt that a NBA athlete will end in a hospital because of covid...
No, please, really, be my guest... I'm open minded...
Here is my evidence:
No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant
We found no significant difference in cycle threshold values between vaccinated and unvaccinated, asymptomatic and symptomatic groups infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta. Given the substantial proportion of asymptomatic vaccine breakthrough cases with high viral levels, interventions, including...
www.medrxiv.org
Covid-19 Breakthrough Infections in Vaccinated Health Care Workers | NEJM
Correspondence from The New England Journal of Medicine — Covid-19 Breakthrough Infections in Vaccinated Health Care Workers
www.nejm.org
Fauci o maskah
www.bitchute.com
Thank you in advance.
FunkMiller
Member
No, please, really, be my guest... I'm open minded...
Here is my evidence:
No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant
We found no significant difference in cycle threshold values between vaccinated and unvaccinated, asymptomatic and symptomatic groups infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta. Given the substantial proportion of asymptomatic vaccine breakthrough cases with high viral levels, interventions, including...
Covid-19 Breakthrough Infections in Vaccinated Health Care Workers | NEJM
Correspondence from The New England Journal of Medicine — Covid-19 Breakthrough Infections in Vaccinated Health Care Workerswww.nejm.org
Fauci o maskah
Thank you in advance.
The first has not been peer reviewed. I’ll look at others.
Edit: Fauci was talking about viral load in the carrier, not shedding. Also… Fauci is now good?
Edit: the New England journal doesn’t say anything about vaccinated people having similar viral loads to unvaccinated.
Unless you can point to a peer reviewed analysis that indicates clear evidence that vaccinated people are as likely to pass on the infection as unvaccinated, it’s not a thing.
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Safe? Tell that to the people who died or got injured following COVID-19 shots... Two days ago a 20-year old girl died in my country because of the Janssen poison ops vaccine...
Among the 80 workers with breakthrough infection for whom data were available, the median value for the lowest N-gene Ct value was 22 (range, 14 to 38), which was considered to indicate a high degree of infectivity.1,2
FunkMiller
Member
But your point was that vaccinated people pass on the virus as easily as unvaccinated. This says nothing about that.
QSD
Member
This is such a strange way of putting it. People have emotions, they don't 'choose' them. Who you feel empathy for is a function of your previous life experiences and your temperament, neither of which you choose either. I don't see how you get from that to more or less blaming people for emphasizing with the wrong crowd. I also don't see how it's any good to proselytize about how some people in your eyes are unworthy of empathy.
Cyberpunkd
Member
He has exactly the same chance as everybody else that is healthy and not vaccinated. Is the chance high? No. Is it more than 0? Yes.
We were incredibly lucky with Covid - it’s a highly contagious (much more than flu, which is why casualty rate is a rubbish metric) but ultimately an easy disease to control. However there will always be young and healthy people that will end in ICU - that’s just statistics.
Again:
Among the 80 workers with breakthrough infection for whom data were available, the median value for the lowest N-gene Ct value was 22 (range, 14 to 38), which was considered to indicate a high degree of infectivity.1,2
infectivity-->the ability to produce or transmit infection; the capacity to spread from host to host
FunkMiller
Member
I agree.
FunkMiller
Member
…please point to where in that article it states that vaccinated people are as likely to spread the disease as unvaccinated people.
Edit: I think you’re confusing viral load in vitro with tranmissibility.
Vaccinated people are able to spread the virus for a far shorter period of time than the unvaccinated. Hence why that sports bloke is a selfish twat. Vaccinated people spread the virus over far less time. Which is why he needs to get it.
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funkygunther
Banned
Slovenia?
Cyberpunkd
Member
How many shots were administered in your country till that accident? How many adverse reactions were reported?
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QSD
Member
Um, it's just that it's pointless to criticize people for something they don't choose. Besides that, it's also asinine.
FunkMiller
Member
QSD
Member
What I'm saying is that empathy is a feeling, it's experienced (or not), it isn't decided upon by some deliberative process.
"Support" more in general terms may be decided upon for strategic reasons, but we were talking about empathy.
When I read a lot of your comments I do wonder whether you've accepted the extent to which people do in fact function on emotion. Like I said before, people are irrational at their core - most of what goes around for 'reasoning' is simply post-hoc scaffolding placed around positions that are arrived at emotionally. Getting frustrated about that is kind of like protesting against volcanic eruptions.
FunkMiller
Member
Fair play. I think it lets people off the hook a bit, but I can see the point you’re trying to make.
I guess my follow up point would be that I wish people would have less empathy for anti-vaxxers (who are making a deliberate choice) and more empathy for vulnerable or sick people who are forced to remain locked up in their homes, because of the anti-vaxxers.
JumpMan1981
Banned
FunkMiller
"Do you have any empathy for thousands of immunocompromised people who are having to remain shielded, and have lost their freedoms?"
Hari Seldon
"Of course I have empathy."
FunkMiller
"So… no actual empathy for the people whose lives are being ruined by anti vaxxers."What's the point of asking the question when you are just going to flat out ignore the answer? It seems to be your big "gotcha" question here but you just ignore the answer anyway.
I'm not sure I really understand the point of the argument.
Do I have empathy for vulnerable people who may die? Yes.
Do I think people should get vaccinated to help society? Yes.
Do I think people should be coerced into getting vaccinated under some kind of threat? No.
Do I have empathy for those who didn't get vaccinated or who were hardcore anti-vax and died? Yes.
Is there anything that's really difficult to understand there? It doesn't feel like any of these are extremist views.
I feel like some of the logic here is "well if we laugh at the anti-vaxxers who die then people will see that and be scared (or shamed) into getting vaccinated".
I think
Rentahamster
was making this point? More or less? While
Hari Seldon
finds the subreddit distasteful.What
QSD
says is correct. It's not like you can just flip a switch and choose who you feel empathy for. It's a bit more complicated than that.There seems to be a sense of people getting angry because there is a sense that anti-vaxxers are being "defended". I find that odd. Worrying, even.
You are either onboard with everything, forcing people out of work, laughing at the deaths of "enemies" OR you are defending anti-vaxxers. There's not middle ground with some of you folks and that fucking sucks.
Yet. Every one of you confesses that you would never be in favour of straight up dragging people from their homes and forcefully injecting them against their will.
How is it so hard then to understand that some folk just don't think it's cool to force people in other indirect ways. Such as loss of jobs etc etc. Though I personally don't have too much of an issue with vaccine passports for indoor concerts etc. It's a bit of a spectrum, in my view.
How does that basic set of viewpoints get turned into a very emotional, almost unhinged at times, discussion on empathy?
Like you can't have empathy for different groups here and you can think it's gross to celebrate other people dying. No that doesn't mean I think I have some moral high ground.
Conversation took a very strange turn after
Men_in_Boxes
simply said that they thought the worst of the pandemic was behind us.I wonder how people will feel next summer when all the vaccine mandates are gone and those anti-vaxxers who bunkered down managed to get away with never being vaccinated?
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funkygunther
Banned
empathy is a "put yourself in someone's shoes" type of deal so requires a level of engagement above the emotional, it's that I do understand/do not understand why the person is against vaccines
sympathy is simply feeling bad because some feels bad, I feel bad because that person is in a hospital bed or I feel bad because that person lost someone to covid
funkygunther
Banned
Conversation took a very strange turn after
that's not what they said, not what you initially came into the thread to discuss or defend, and not what led to a "conversation" (in the loosest terms) that for me ended with you having this tantrum:
I think
Rentahamster
asked for your opinion on the other page but actually answering that is not as fun as inventing strawmen and misrepresenting conversations you decide to partake in
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JumpMan1981
Banned
Well that's an easy one to answer.
Yes more (however we are measuring it) empathy and concern for people who are more vulnerable. They are stuck in a terrible situation.
Doesn't change how I feel about consent and bodily autonomy on an individual level.
JumpMan1981
Banned
that's not what they said, not what you initially came into the thread to discuss or defend, and not what led to a "conversation" (in the loosest terms) that for me ended with you having this tantrum:
I think
And I already told
Rentahamster
that the answers to their questions are all in my previous posts.