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[QSD]

empathy is a "put yourself in someone's shoes" type of deal so requires a level of engagement above the emotional, it's that I do understand/do not understand why the person is against vaccines

sympathy is simply feeling bad because some feels bad, I feel bad because that person is in a hospital bed or I feel bad because that person lost someone to covid

I do confuse these two so I accept your correction. I would add though that the impulse to "put yourself in someone's shoes" is probably emotional (e.g. borne of sympathy), but the understanding part is - as you say - something that requires a higher level of engagement.

Fair play. I think it lets people off the hook a bit, but I can see the point you’re trying to make.

I guess my follow up point would be that I wish people would have less empathy for anti-vaxxers (who are making a deliberate choice) and more empathy for vulnerable or sick people who are forced to remain locked up in their homes, because of the anti-vaxxers.

I don't really think the chips are going to move much anymore no matter what we do or say now. In general I'm more worried about what is situation bodes for the future. How can we avoid such a schism (vax vs anitvax) happening again during a future calamity? Can we get the Rogans and the Weinsteins of the world to be more responsible with their conspiratorial musings? Can we get the government to function more transparently so as not to provide such an ample breeding ground for paranoia? What about the level of dependence we seem to all have towards pharmaceutical companies now? Is that something we ought to want?

 

[JumpMan1981]

The majority of Covid deaths are behind us.

Conversation took a very strange turn after Men_in_Boxes simply said that they thought the worst of the pandemic was behind us.

that's not what they said

OK you got me there.

The conversation took a very strange turn after Men_in_Boxes said the majority of covid deaths are behind us.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[FunkMiller]

FunkMiller "Do you have any empathy for thousands of immunocompromised people who are having to remain shielded, and have lost their freedoms?"

Hari Seldon "Of course I have empathy."

FunkMiller "So… no actual empathy for the people whose lives are being ruined by anti vaxxers."

What's the point of asking the question when you are just going to flat out ignore the answer? It seems to be your big "gotcha" question here but you just ignore the answer anyway.

I'm not sure I really understand the point of the argument.

Do I have empathy for vulnerable people who may die? Yes.

Do I think people should get vaccinated to help society? Yes.

Do I think people should be coerced into getting vaccinated under some kind of threat? No.

Do I have empathy for those who didn't get vaccinated or who were hardcore anti-vax and died? Yes.

Is there anything that's really difficult to understand there? It doesn't feel like any of these are extremist views.

I feel like some of the logic here is "well if we laugh at the anti-vaxxers who die then people will see that and be scared (or shamed) into getting vaccinated".

I think Rentahamster was making this point? More or less? While Hari Seldon finds the subreddit distasteful.

What QSD says is correct. It's not like you can just flip a switch and choose who you feel empathy for. It's a bit more complicated than that.

There seems to be a sense of people getting angry because there is a sense that anti-vaxxers are being "defended". I find that odd. Worrying, even.

You are either onboard with everything, forcing people out of work, laughing at the deaths of "enemies" OR you are defending anti-vaxxers. There's not middle ground with some of you folks and that fucking sucks.

Yet. Every one of you confesses that you would never be in favour of straight up dragging people from their homes and forcefully injecting them against their will.

How is it so hard then to understand that some folk just don't think it's cool to force people in other indirect ways. Such as loss of jobs etc etc. Though I personally don't have too much of an issue with vaccine passports for indoor concerts etc. It's a bit of a spectrum, in my view.

How does that basic set of viewpoints get turned into a very emotional, almost unhinged at times, discussion on empathy?

Like you can't have empathy for different groups here and you can think it's gross to celebrate other people dying. No that doesn't mean I think I have some moral high ground.

Conversation took a very strange turn after Men_in_Boxes simply said that they thought the worst of the pandemic was behind us.

I wonder how people will feel next summer when all the vaccine mandates are gone and those anti-vaxxers who bunkered down managed to get away with never being vaccinated?

Still avoiding. Still obfuscating.

I, and no one else, has championed the idea of coercing people to get vaccinated.

I do however champion the idea (and will continue to do so) that anti vaxxers are selfish assholes, who care more for their nebulous freedoms, and don’t seem to give two shits about the vulnerable or the sick around them.

The fact that you, and others, continue to bleat on in their defence is what I take exception to.

Stop fighting a fight that nobody else is having with you, and start engaging in what we’re actually saying. Nobody wants to force people to get vaccinated. We shouldn’t have to. They should want to do it out of a sense of civic duty, compassion, common sense and logic.

If a person can’t openly and clearly express disgust at the way the anti-vax minority are making other people’s lives a misery by refusing to get the jab, and continuing to spread misinformation, then the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that that person is sympathetic to the anti vax cause, and is possibly one themselves, despite what they may openly admit.

 

[funkygunther]

OK you got me there.

The conversation took a very strange turn after Men_in_Boxes said the majority of covid deaths are behind us.

Thanks for the correction.

it depends on your definition of "strange"

if it took a strange turn immediately after such bullshit was claimed then I agree

if it took a strange turn when you got involved and tied yourself into a pretzel then I also agree, always look before you leap Jumpman1981

 

[Thaedolus]

Seems that mandates…work

 

[Mistake]

Still avoiding. Still obfuscating.

I, and no one else, has championed the idea of coercing people to get vaccinated.

I do however champion the idea (and will continue to do so) that anti vaxxers are selfish assholes, who care more for their nebulous freedoms, and don’t seem to give two shits about the vulnerable or the sick around them.

The fact that you, and others, continue to bleat on in their defence is what I take exception to.

Stop fighting a fight that nobody else is having with you, and start engaging in what we’re actually saying. Nobody wants to force people to get vaccinated. We shouldn’t have to. They should want to do it out of a sense of civic duty, compassion, common sense and logic.

If a person can’t openly and clearly express disgust at the way the anti-vax minority are making other people’s lives a misery by refusing to get the jab, and continuing to spread misinformation, then the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that that person is sympathetic to the anti vax cause, and is possibly one themselves, despite what they may openly admit.

So if you’re not into coercing people, then what’s the difference between an antivaxxer and personal choice? Whether or not they spread the reasons for their decision? I keep hearing “trust the science” and “trust the data,” like it’s trying to convince me that numbers don’t lie. Sure jan

 

[Jaysen]

JumpMan1981 you've been accused of spreading misinformation. You are now an enemy of the state. Please stay inside your house while authorities are dispatched to transport you to reeducation center. Citizens who alerted us of your crime will be given the true Patriot star.

Woe as me! Why is everyone being so unfair to anti vaxxers? Let us be idiots without calling us out!

 

[ManaByte]

Merck Says It Has First Effective Antiviral Pill for Covid

Wait for it. Anti-vaxxers are going to turn into Anti-pillers now.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Most Anti Vax is objective stupidity and defiancy.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Merck Says It Has First Effective Antiviral Pill for Covid

Wait for it. Anti-vaxxers are going to turn into Anti-pillers now.

Of course they will. This will be good for kids though.

 

[Thaedolus]

Merck Says It Has First Effective Antiviral Pill for Covid

Wait for it. Anti-vaxxers are going to turn into Anti-pillers now.

Guess which company makes human ivermectin and has disavowed its use for Covid?

 

[QSD]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/01/how-persuade-people-you-dont-agree-with

Tamerius has co-written two bots for the New York Times that model conversations on polarizing subjects. Her most recent, on how to speak with people who don’t want a vaccine, opens with a friend texting that getting a Covid vaccination seems like a “bad idea”.

The bot then prompts you to choose a response: one is an answer you know is wrong (“Are you an anti-vaxxer?”), the second is a more subtle form of persuasion (“Covid is scarier”), and the third is a question (“You’ve heard some things that make you worried and unsure?”). When you click on your favored response, you’re told why it’s a good or less effective choice. The third one is the best choice because people want to feel heard – so instead of spamming someone with links to convince them that vaccinations are necessary, first hear where their fear comes from.

Tamerius often gets comments from people who say they know what the right answer is, but just can’t stop themselves and choose another. “That is exactly what [it’s] like when you’re in a conversation,” she said. “The responses that are counterproductive or emotionally gratifying are kind of like the junk food of political discourse.”

When you don’t have a bot to help you along in those moments, Tamerius suggests two things. First, change the way you think about the other person. “Stop thinking about the other person as ‘them’, and immediately start thinking in terms of ‘us’,” she advises. And second, listen. But, like, actually.

“That doesn’t mean listen to respond; or listen to rebut; or listen to reply – or God forbid, listen just to take turns talking,” she says. “It means listening to understand – until the other person feels heard, not until you feel like you’ve heard them.”
Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. But practically, how do you avoid reaching for the gratifying junk food when you’ve been fed a steady diet of it for a decade?
“You’ve got to set the intention and work at it,” says Tamerius. “Over time, it builds into habit.”

​

for all you conversational junk food addicts

 

[funkygunther]

Merck Says It Has First Effective Antiviral Pill for Covid

Wait for it. Anti-vaxxers are going to turn into Anti-pillers now.

more likely they'll stay anti-vax and say they're waiting for this pill

 

[Rentahamster]

How is he selfish when there is no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated?

Once you get symptomatically sick, viral loads are similar. However, there is less chance for vaccinated people to get sick in the first place, thus being vaccinated reduces transmission.

Conclusions Vaccination reduces transmission of Delta, but by less than the Alpha variant. The impact of vaccination decreased over time. Factors other than PCR-measured viral load are important in vaccine-associated transmission reductions. Booster vaccinations may help control transmission together with preventing infections.

Monitoring Incidence of COVID-19 Cases...

After the COVID-19 B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant reached predominance, fully vaccinated people had less risk of infection, hospitalization, and death.

www.cdc.gov

What is already known about this topic?

The incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection, hospitalization, and death is higher in unvaccinated than vaccinated persons, and the incidence rate ratios are related to vaccine effectiveness.

What is added by this report?

Across 13 U.S. jurisdictions, incidence rate ratios for hospitalization and death changed relatively little after the SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant reached predominance, suggesting high, continued vaccine effectiveness against severe COVID-19. Case IRRs decreased, suggesting reduced vaccine effectiveness for prevention of SARS-CoV-2 infections.

What are the implications for public health practice?

Getting vaccinated protects against severe illness from COVID-19, including the Delta variant. Monitoring COVID-19 incidence by vaccination status might provide early signals of potential changes in vaccine effectiveness that can be confirmed through robust controlled studies.

According to a study in Singapore, while initial viral loads are similar, vaccinated people reduce their viral loads more quickly on average, and recover faster, thus giving some insight into why there is less transmission among vaccinated people.,

Virological and serological kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant vaccine-breakthrough infections: a multi-center cohort study

Objectives Highly effective vaccines against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) have been developed but variants of concerns (VOCs) with mutations in the spike protein are worrisome, especially B.1.617.2 (Delta) which has rapidly spread across the world. We aim to study...

www.medrxiv.org

Conclusion The mRNA vaccines are highly effective at preventing symptomatic and severe COVID-19 associated with B.1.617.2 infection. Vaccination is associated with faster decline in viral RNA load and a robust serological response. Vaccination remains a key strategy for control of COVID-19 pandemic.

Furthermore, PCR testing for viral load doesn't tell you how much active and viable virus there is. You could have huge viral loads, but if they're all dead, it doesn't matter much for transmission. Does vaccination reduce active, viable virus? Probably.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1.full.pdf

Role in the transmission chain: Vaccinated vs. unvaccinated

We’re learning more and more about how our vaccines hold up against Delta. I feel like I’m drinking out of a firehose. So, here’s an attempt to get you up to speed… What we knew Last time I updated you (see August 6th post here), the science was telling us four things:

yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com

Scientists studied 161 breakthrough cases among healthcare workers (HCWs) in the Netherlands. The average age of the HCWs was 25.5 years and all infections were mild and did not require hospital admission. The PCR positive swabs were tested for the viral load (i.e. Ct value) AND tested for the presence of infectious virus (opposed to noninfectious virus) in that viral load.

What did they find?

• The viral load was the same with vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated samples. This is not new. It just confirms #3 in this post above. We saw this in the famous CDC study on the Massachusetts outbreak among vaccinated as well as other studies.

• 7 out of 10 (68.6%) vaccinated HCWs were positive for infectious virus compared to 8.5 out of 10 (84.9%) unvaccinated HCWs were positive for infectious virus. This tells us that if you’re vaccinated and you come in contact with the virus, you’ll likely to be less contagious than unvaccinated people. But not all the time.

 

[Rentahamster]

And I already told Rentahamster that the answers to their questions are all in my previous posts.

No you didn't. I asked you a direct question, and instead of quoting it and offering a direct response, you deflected and offered up your strawman arguments yet again.

I wonder how people will feel next summer when all the vaccine mandates are gone and those anti-vaxxers who bunkered down managed to get away with never being vaccinated?

When the pandemic subsides, it won't be thanks to them. If any of the anti-vaxxers "get away" with anything, it's because they're free-loading off the rest of society that's actually trying to take the steps that's proven to make this pandemic end.

 

[FunkMiller]

I keep hearing “trust the science” and “trust the data,” like it’s trying to convince me that numbers don’t lie. Sure jan

If you’ve convinced yourself that you’re being lied to about covid and vaccination figures then any further discussion is pointless.

 

[12Goblins]

anecdotally, but from my neck of the woods where covid ravaged through communities (MO), I think the delta wave is finally coming to an end but peeps are afraid to say it too early like last time. cheers boys we made it

what we learned: The vaccine works and it is overwhelmingly safe. alhamdulillah

if you followed conspiracy theories: you followed the wrong ones, got duped and in the process hurt yourself, your loved ones, and your country - it's time for some serious self reflection. But the good news is that there is no shame in admitting you were wrong, which is to say you are wiser today than you were yesterday. Live and learn. there are no mistakes if you learn from them.

 

[Jaysen]

FunkMiller "Do you have any empathy for thousands of immunocompromised people who are having to remain shielded, and have lost their freedoms?"

Hari Seldon "Of course I have empathy."

FunkMiller "So… no actual empathy for the people whose lives are being ruined by anti vaxxers."

What's the point of asking the question when you are just going to flat out ignore the answer? It seems to be your big "gotcha" question here but you just ignore the answer anyway.

I'm not sure I really understand the point of the argument.

Do I have empathy for vulnerable people who may die? Yes.

Do I think people should get vaccinated to help society? Yes.

Do I think people should be coerced into getting vaccinated under some kind of threat? No.

Do I have empathy for those who didn't get vaccinated or who were hardcore anti-vax and died? Yes.

Is there anything that's really difficult to understand there? It doesn't feel like any of these are extremist views.

I feel like some of the logic here is "well if we laugh at the anti-vaxxers who die then people will see that and be scared (or shamed) into getting vaccinated".

I think Rentahamster was making this point? More or less? While Hari Seldon finds the subreddit distasteful.

What QSD says is correct. It's not like you can just flip a switch and choose who you feel empathy for. It's a bit more complicated than that.

There seems to be a sense of people getting angry because there is a sense that anti-vaxxers are being "defended". I find that odd. Worrying, even.

You are either onboard with everything, forcing people out of work, laughing at the deaths of "enemies" OR you are defending anti-vaxxers. There's not middle ground with some of you folks and that fucking sucks.

Yet. Every one of you confesses that you would never be in favour of straight up dragging people from their homes and forcefully injecting them against their will.

How is it so hard then to understand that some folk just don't think it's cool to force people in other indirect ways. Such as loss of jobs etc etc. Though I personally don't have too much of an issue with vaccine passports for indoor concerts etc. It's a bit of a spectrum, in my view.

How does that basic set of viewpoints get turned into a very emotional, almost unhinged at times, discussion on empathy?

Like you can't have empathy for different groups here and you can think it's gross to celebrate other people dying. No that doesn't mean I think I have some moral high ground.

Conversation took a very strange turn after Men_in_Boxes simply said that they thought the worst of the pandemic was behind us.

I wonder how people will feel next summer when all the vaccine mandates are gone and those anti-vaxxers who bunkered down managed to get away with never being vaccinated?

Most people will still be of the correct opinion that anti-vaxxers are complete fucking idiots.

 

[Vicetrailia]

anecdotally, but from my neck of the woods where covid ravaged through communities (MO), I think the delta wave is finally coming to an end but peeps are afraid to say it too early like last time. cheers boys we made it

what we learned: The vaccine works and it is overwhelmingly safe. alhamdulillah

if you followed conspiracy theories: you followed the wrong ones, got duped and in the process hurt yourself, your loved ones, and your country - it's time for some serious self reflection. But the good news is that there is no shame in admitting you were wrong, which is to say you are wiser today than you were yesterday. Live and learn. there are no mistakes if you learn from them.

Well there are mistakes made, just try to not make them again.

 

[Kilau]

It’s great to see some data that shows the vaccines reduce transmission, that will be key if we are ever going to get this under control.

 

[CrankyJay™]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/09/28/christina-baker-kline-father-death-covid-quarantine/

The unvaccinated trample on our most vulnerable.

Is that claim reliable though? Here in the north east it seems there’s no discernible statistical difference in who is occupying hospital beds.

 

[Thaedolus]

Is that claim reliable though? Here in the north east it seems there’s no discernible statistical difference in who is occupying hospital beds.

I don’t have a peer reviewed study to go along with this opinion piece.

However this new Merck drug sounds super promising. Hopefully it holds up through further review.

 

[CrankyJay™]

I don’t have a peer reviewed study to go along with this opinion piece.

However this new Merck drug sounds super promising. Hopefully it holds up through further review.

Yeah it’s definitely a bit of good news.

 

[Rentahamster]

Having empathy for your fellow citizens is a great thing. Loving thy neighbor and all that good stuff. However, expressing empathy while engaging in or supporting actions that actively harm society is an empty platitude and virtue signaling.

Empathy alone doesn't kill SARSCOV2 and prevent its transmission. Empathy alone doesn't keep our hospitals from overflowing and civilization from breaking down. Sound public policy, sensible leadership, and a responsible populace with a strong sense of civic duty does.

Anti-vaxxers want to tone police about empathy because they completely fail at the evidence and public policy standpoints, and being concerned about empathy is the only leg they have left to stand on.

And it doesn't even work because they can say how empathetic they are, but their actions are anything but.

 

[Mistake]

If you’ve convinced yourself that you’re being lied to about covid and vaccination figures then any further discussion is pointless.

I've seen enough to know that we're not getting reliable information. Whether that is effective rates of vaccines, or the adverse effects. And if I don't have that information, I can't make a decision that I would be comfortable with. Yet lumping people like me into "antivax" is actively hurting your cause. I've had shots for measles, mumps, tetanus, and hpv.

 

[funkygunther]

I've seen enough to know that we're not getting reliable information. Whether that is effective rates of vaccines, or the adverse effects. And if I don't have that information, I can't make a decision that I would be comfortable with. Yet lumping people like me into "antivax" is actively hurting your cause. I've had shots for measles, mumps, tetanus, and even hpv.

what exact information do you need to make the decision to have the vaccine?

 

[Mistake]

what exact information do you need to make a decision?

We're only a year through and going through the second cold season, so we need to know vaccine effectiveness vs herd immunity. That's going to be hard data to get accurately. The real numbers on how many people are having adverse affects, or how they respond to alternative treatments would also be nice, but I fear that's not going to come out until much later. I've seen the videos of both people in the hospital over covid, and the vaccine. So let me be clear, I'm not downplaying either. I know people who's families have been hurt by covid, and the vaccine. But from the nurses I've spoken to, and how they're being fired across the country despite working through the whole pandemic, it only adds to my skepticism, that again, we're not getting reliable info

 

[funkygunther]

We're only a year through and going through the second cold season, so we need to know vaccine effectiveness vs herd immunity.

I'm not following sorry, am I understanding that you're waiting for herd immunity before getting the vaccine? Or do you think vaccine & herd immunity are separate?

To try and boil it down you must have a tipping point where you will think "yes, I will get the vaccine", I am trying to understand what that tipping point is.

 

[12Goblins]

your healthy immune system < jesse jackson's vaccinated immunity . RIP

 

[Rentahamster]

your healthy immune system < jesse jackson's vaccinated immunity . RIP

Damn, he was trying to dunk on Jesse Jackson because Jackson got a breakthrough infection? The point he missed was that while vaccinated people can still get COVID (but at a lower rate), they most likely will survive it. That dude... did not

 

[StreetsofBeige]

your healthy immune system < jesse jackson's vaccinated immunity . RIP

Not surprised a tough guy was bragging he doesnt need the vax. As I said a few times, it sure seems we get this kind of attitude more from people like that. I get it. You're fit, never been in a hospital and bench press more than anyone on the block. Doesn't make you invincible.

I dont know what the demographics are between vax an antivax, so maybe I'm wrong but as a betting man I'd say there's a much higher % of antivaxxers being guys.

 

[dcll]

Why would congress and other special groups be exempt from the manadates?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Just some interested stats.

The average anti-vaxxer is a liberal, middle-aged Midwestern man

Meet your average American anti-vaxxer.

qz.com

 

[funkygunther]

Why would congress and other special groups be exempt from the manadates?

here you go, read this page, starting where you asked the same question

Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]

Migrants and congress exempt???? This shit is infuriating

www.neogaf.com

 

[Rentahamster]

Why would congress and other special groups be exempt from the manadates?

Separation of powers under the US Constitution.

That's why he can only tell the people under the authority of the executive branch what to do, and not the congressional or judicial branches.

 

[Rentahamster]

we need to know vaccine effectiveness vs herd immunity

What does this mean? Can you reword this please?

 

[Kilau]

Just some interested stats.

The average anti-vaxxer is a liberal, middle-aged Midwestern man

Meet your average American anti-vaxxer.

qz.com

Anti vaxxers come in all forms, some of the most famous prior to covid would be described as politically left. Anti covid vaccine folks seems to be something different though.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

The trend I notice the most is that the vast majority of people who go on and on about being lions in a sea of sheep, not needing the vax if you're healthy, covid only kills 1% of people, etc. seem to overwhelmingly be 50+ year old fat fucks with diabetes or some other comorbidity who seem like they'd struggle to survive going up a flight of stairs let alone covid.

 

[ManaByte]

California Gov. Newsom announces nation’s 1st statewide COVID vaccine mandate for students

California Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday announced a first-in-the-nation mandate that will require all eligible students to get vaccinated against COVID-19 to go to school in person once vaccines get…

ktla.com

 

[FunkMiller]

I've seen enough to know that we're not getting reliable information. Whether that is effective rates of vaccines, or the adverse effects.

The effectiveness of the vaccine is shown when you look at the official stats for hospital admissions and deaths.

There aren’t many reports of adverse effects, because it hardly ever happens. 3.4 billion people vaccinated. Dont you think we’d have heard a lot more if any more than a tiny, tiny percentage were having adverse reactions?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

 

[poppabk]

They needed an ineffective treatment for their control arm?

 

[Jaysen]

Anti vaxxers come in all forms, some of the most famous prior to covid would be described as politically left. Anti covid vaccine folks seems to be something different though.

Yep, your average anti-vaxxer doesn’t go to school assemblies and threaten the lives of doctors who are trying to educate them about the health risks to their children. Your average anti-vaxxer doesn’t scream at doctors and nurses that they’re the enemy. And they also don’t have problems with mask mandates if it means protecting those around them. It’s a different breed of complete moron that is doing all that.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Just by 50% huh? Better to get the vaccine.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Yep, your average anti-vaxxer doesn’t go to school assemblies and threaten the lives of doctors who are trying to educate them about the health risks to their children. Your average anti-vaxxer doesn’t scream at doctors and nurses that they’re the enemy. And they also don’t have problems with mask mandates if it means protecting those around them. It’s a different breed of complete moron that is doing all that.

The trumpian political wave breed.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

We're only a year through and going through the second cold season, so we need to know vaccine effectiveness vs herd immunity. That's going to be hard data to get accurately. The real numbers on how many people are having adverse affects, or how they respond to alternative treatments would also be nice, but I fear that's not going to come out until much later. I've seen the videos of both people in the hospital over covid, and the vaccine. So let me be clear, I'm not downplaying either. I know people who's families have been hurt by covid, and the vaccine. But from the nurses I've spoken to, and how they're being fired across the country despite working through the whole pandemic, it only adds to my skepticism, that again, we're not getting reliable info

You've seen.... videos?

Perhaps you should take a step back and do some research on basic principles first before you start researching the vaccine.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Having empathy for your fellow citizens is a great thing. Loving thy neighbor and all that good stuff. However, expressing empathy while engaging in or supporting actions that actively harm society is an empty platitude and virtue signaling.

Empathy alone doesn't kill SARSCOV2 and prevent its transmission. Empathy alone doesn't keep our hospitals from overflowing and civilization from breaking down. Sound public policy, sensible leadership, and a responsible populace with a strong sense of civic duty does.

Anti-vaxxers want to tone police about empathy because they completely fail at the evidence and public policy standpoints, and being concerned about empathy is the only leg they have left to stand on.

And it doesn't even work because they can say how empathetic they are, but their actions are anything but.

I have empathy for the people with COVID whether vaccinated or unvaccinated (either by choice or because they cannot get the vaccine). I think the disconnect between me and the people who have zero empathy of the unvaccinated is that I associate an unvaccinated person in my brain the same way as I do say, a homeless person or a drug addict. I.e. someone who is probably terribly misguided and has made some horrible choices, probably poor with no prospects. Imagine if there was a subreddit that posted obituaries whenever some drug addict ODd. That would be horrible and so is doing the same for unvaccinated people.

 

[BadBurger]

If you’ve convinced yourself that you’re being lied to about covid and vaccination figures then any further discussion is pointless.

"Am I supposed to trust hard, verified facts and data? The reality before my eyes?! Please. Those aren't political and it's not what Guy On YouTube told me!"

 

[Jaysen]

I have empathy for the people with COVID whether vaccinated or unvaccinated (either by choice or because they cannot get the vaccine). I think the disconnect between me and the people who have zero empathy of the unvaccinated is that I associate an unvaccinated person in my brain the same way as I do say, a homeless person or a drug addict. I.e. someone who is probably terribly misguided and has made some horrible choices, probably poor with no prospects. Imagine if there was a subreddit that posted obituaries whenever some drug addict ODd. That would be horrible and so is doing the same for unvaccinated people.

Most homeless don’t run around telling people to quit their jobs and live on the street, or attempt in any way to shame people with homes.

 

[HoodWinked]

always see this thread jump to the top in off-topic all it is people just screaming at each other and this weird obsession with a subreddit. This had some better perspective from nations that didn't politize it and are now moving into the next phase.