Support NeoGAF

[Deleted member 17706]

Fast forward to a year from now when they start talking about how we need to send in agents from the newly established Federal Biosafety Agency to arrest parents who aren't complying with double masking in the home or injecting their toddlers with a 4th dose of the vaccine to keep their papers current.

 

[Thaedolus]

That is a fine appeal to authority, but for me and many others, this last year and a half or so has been a non-stop demonstration of why blind trust in our institutions may not be the best idea. Let's say (purely hypothetically because I have no idea) that it came to light that the Pfizer trial did not consider anyone who did not have a fever or cough to have been infected. Would I need an MD or PhD to debate the appropriateness of such a protocol?

I've given several reasons why my trust of FDA isn't blind, though. I don't distrust their motives or expertise based on years of submissions and interactions. And I understand why the EUA could get through quickly, but the full approval takes longer (because I know how much information has to be provided by the manufacturer about everything involved in the manufacturing process to get full approval). No, that trust isn't absolute, and I've certainly banged my head against the wall after dealing with them over the years, but I have no reason to think some lay person is going to be able to pick apart the appropriateness of the criteria for a positive COVID case better than their expert staff would. More likely the grifters that are "just asking questions" will find some minutia to quarrel with in order to continue their grift while ICUs fill up to levels even greater than last year, as we're seeing in my state and many others across the country.

 

[Rock And Roll]

Another solid video from Saagar and Krystal.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I've given several reasons why my trust of FDA isn't blind, though. I don't distrust their motives or expertise based on years of submissions and interactions. And I understand why the EUA could get through quickly, but the full approval takes longer (because I know how much information has to be provided by the manufacturer about everything involved in the manufacturing process to get full approval). No, that trust isn't absolute, and I've certainly banged my head against the wall after dealing with them over the years, but I have no reason to think some lay person is going to be able to pick apart the appropriateness of the criteria for a positive COVID case better than their expert staff would. More likely the grifters that are "just asking questions" will find some minutia to quarrel with in order to continue their grift while ICUs fill up to levels even greater than last year, as we're seeing in my state and many others across the country.

Excuse me, I can google. That means I'm an expert at everything.

edit: obvious /s since i'm getting triggered reactions lol

 

[Loki]

May I ask why? If you saw the criteria from the final protocols, would you have the knowledge and judgment to dispute its appropriateness at the time it was conducted? Do you know more than the MDs and PhDs at FDA?

In my experience, FDA and other regulatory bodies are nothing if not sticklers or complete pains in the ass about details such as these. However, I've never doubted they are being that way in the interest of the safety, so I have no reason to doubt the motives of the EUA here nor do I doubt their expertise.



"Only" is doing a lot of work here, for those on both sides of 60.

I agree it's a lot of people, and I certainly don't mean to minimize anyone's death, but at the end of the day this has like a .01% fatality rate for folks under 50, possibly even lower for the Delta variant. I'm not willing to upend society or curtail rights for those odds and that level of threat, nor should anyone else be.

 

[Mohonky]

Had my phfizer shot yesterday, first one, not feeling any side effects /shrug

 

[Halo is Back]

No point if I'll spread the virus anyways. Not getting vaccinated, i will alter my lifestyle to avoid the vax. If it's required to travel, i won't travel. If that means I can't leave my state at some point, I'll just never leave or find a clever way of bypassing whatever system the government puts in place.


Your system must learn to deal with people like me. There is no changing my mind on this subject. Ultimately either you accept my right to be unvaccinated, or use force against me. Even if I lose my job I'll just find another. If no employer will hire me I'll find some other way to get by.


I wouldn't get vaxxed for a million dollars. There is no incentive, and any force literally needs to be on the level of sending a hit team after me or I'm just not going to comply.

So you would give up all your precious freedom just because you don't want to get vaxxed?

 

[12Goblins]

Covid third wave: Florida surpasses all-time record for hospital admissions

The number of patients in the Sunshine State is higher now than at any point of the pandemic.

www.bbc.com

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Covid third wave: Florida surpasses all-time record for hospital admissions

The number of patients in the Sunshine State is higher now than at any point of the pandemic.

www.bbc.com

US health officials say 11,515 Florida residents are currently in hospital. Many are younger and healthier than patients seen earlier in the pandemic.

Many? What's the breakdown here?

Does anyone know where detailed Florida hospitalization data are available (if at all)?

 

[12Goblins]

I've been hearing a lot of about younger people being more affected this time around

for example:

but anecdotally I'm not seeing that, at all.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I've been hearing a lot of about younger people being more affected this time around

for example:

but anecdotally I'm not seeing that, at all.

Yeah, I've been hearing the same, as well as fear porn about kids in the ICU at "alarming rates." No one seems to want to publish actual concrete numbers, though...

 

[EverythingsOverrated]

Been getting a good chuckle out of the people mocking the "muh freedumbz" crowd.

Reminds me of the short sighted neo cons that were jizzing all over themselves over post 9/11 legislation. Fast forward 20 years and trustfund kid Mr Bowtie on fox is realizing the patriot act might not have been a good idea.

See ya in 20 years when you realize powers given for the now aren't just going to be used now.

 

[Kilau]

Yeah, I've been hearing the same, as well as fear porn about kids in the ICU at "alarming rates." No one seems to want to publish actual concrete numbers, though...

The local school board meeting tonight to decide if they will defy Desantis and mandate masks announced a child had died of Covid, very sad.

 

[Taxexemption]

So you would give up all your precious freedom just because you don't want to get vaxxed?

Not getting vaxxed is one of the most important freedoms. Do you think our society is run well? No corruption, no malicious actors? Do you trust that if people of a different ideology were in power they wouldn't find a way to abuse the power to force people into medical treatments? It's vaccines today, it will be gene therapy tomorrow, and in a hundred years anything that made you a human will be gone. All that will be left is artificially made genetically programmed humans who will probably come out of their mothers wombs (assuming they even have those in a hundred years) with a barcode and corporate logo on their butts.


If you have any imagination or awareness of the world you live in, you would know that we currently live in the early stages of a cyberpunk dystopia. In my mind the future where we aggressively pursue gene therapy is the worst possible road we can go down, and the one most likely to end the human race. Basically if a large percentage of people are not able to peacefully refuse vaccinations it will ensure a future where all of humanity is forced into gene therapy, which private corporations will have a big hand in deciding what kind of genes you should have.


The vaccine in my opinion is probably not harmful. To me the important question is, what comes next? You give a little today, a lot will be taken tomorrow, and more and more later. I'm stopping this all here, either I have no freedom and I will be forced vaccinated, or possibly die while resisting vaccination, or I will not be vaccinated even if the government tries to take away my freedom. At the moment I'm highly skeptical of the power of the government to actually take real action on this. I view this entire dialogue as agit-prop.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The local school board meeting tonight to decide if they will defy Desantis and mandate masks announced a child had died of Covid, very sad.

A very sad anecdote indeed.

 

[Kilau]

A very sad anecdote indeed.

Well it's not my anecdote, it's what they said to, I assume, underscore the need for kids to mask. This poor child certainly wasn't infected at school since they haven't been in session since June.

 

[Halo is Back]

Not getting vaxxed is one of the most important freedoms. Do you think our society is run well? No corruption, no malicious actors? Do you trust that if people of a different ideology were in power they wouldn't find a way to abuse the power to force people into medical treatments? It's vaccines today, it will be gene therapy tomorrow, and in a hundred years anything that made you a human will be gone. All that will be left is artificially made genetically programmed humans who will probably come out of their mothers wombs (assuming they even have those in a hundred years) with a barcode and corporate logo on their butts.


If you have any imagination or awareness of the world you live in, you would know that we currently live in the early stages of a cyberpunk dystopia. In my mind the future where we aggressively pursue gene therapy is the worst possible road we can go down, and the one most likely to end the human race. Basically if a large percentage of people are not able to peacefully refuse vaccinations it will ensure a future where all of humanity is forced into gene therapy, which private corporations will have a big hand in deciding what kind of genes you should have.


The vaccine in my opinion is probably not harmful. To me the important question is, what comes next? You give a little today, a lot will be taken tomorrow, and more and more later. I'm stopping this all here, either I have no freedom and I will be forced vaccinated, or possibly die while resisting vaccination, or I will not be vaccinated even if the government tries to take away my freedom. At the moment I'm highly skeptical of the power of the government to actually take real action on this. I view this entire dialogue as agit-prop.

In that case, it will be YOU who will have to live in a society that you will have to deal with. Not the other way around where you were beating your chest on how we will have to deal with you. If you are so paranoid then go live in the mountains off the grid. I don't think any medication or treatment should be mandated by law but it's your choice to not take something that could save you and your family a lot of trouble down the line.

 

[poppabk]

Not getting vaxxed is one of the most important freedoms. Do you think our society is run well? No corruption, no malicious actors? Do you trust that if people of a different ideology were in power they wouldn't find a way to abuse the power to force people into medical treatments? It's vaccines today, it will be gene therapy tomorrow, and in a hundred years anything that made you a human will be gone. All that will be left is artificially made genetically programmed humans who will probably come out of their mothers wombs (assuming they even have those in a hundred years) with a barcode and corporate logo on their butts.


If you have any imagination or awareness of the world you live in, you would know that we currently live in the early stages of a cyberpunk dystopia. In my mind the future where we aggressively pursue gene therapy is the worst possible road we can go down, and the one most likely to end the human race. Basically if a large percentage of people are not able to peacefully refuse vaccinations it will ensure a future where all of humanity is forced into gene therapy, which private corporations will have a big hand in deciding what kind of genes you should have.


The vaccine in my opinion is probably not harmful. To me the important question is, what comes next? You give a little today, a lot will be taken tomorrow, and more and more later. I'm stopping this all here, either I have no freedom and I will be forced vaccinated, or possibly die while resisting vaccination, or I will not be vaccinated even if the government tries to take away my freedom. At the moment I'm highly skeptical of the power of the government to actually take real action on this. I view this entire dialogue as agit-prop.

The irony is that people refusing to take the vaccine is the only thing that will allow the government a mandate to force a vaccine.
Has the federal government added any new legal powers since the pandemic started? I'm pretty sure they have power they haven't even used.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

No what I am saying is that if you've already had covid I see no reason to force someone to get the vaccine or mandate it and keep them from being able to go to places of business or entertainment because they have immunity that is equal if not slightly superior to vaccine-based immunity.

What I am tired of is the debate seems to be vaccine versus no vaccine when the debate should be immunity, previous infection or vaccine versus nothing.

Nowhere in my comments was I meaning to imply that everyone is better to get covid than to get the vaccine if you've had neither. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Because as one poster said before in the study linked there are a lots of ‘ifs’ attached to your statement, mostly involving the duration of the immunity.

 

[poppabk]

No what I am saying is that if you've already had covid I see no reason to force someone to get the vaccine or mandate it and keep them from being able to go to places of business or entertainment because they have immunity that is equal if not slightly superior to vaccine-based immunity.

What I am tired of is the debate seems to be vaccine versus no vaccine when the debate should be immunity, previous infection or vaccine versus nothing.

Nowhere in my comments was I meaning to imply that everyone is better to get covid than to get the vaccine if you've had neither. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I agree on that front, sorry for the misunderstanding. There is no real harm with getting a vaccination anyway, but there is no need to require it either, immunity regardless of the path should be sufficient.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

No what I am saying is that if you've already had covid I see no reason to force someone to get the vaccine or mandate it and keep them from being able to go to places of business or entertainment because they have immunity that is equal if not slightly superior to vaccine-based immunity.

Actually this is one of the avenues that allows you to get a ‘Covid pass’ in France - proof that you had Covid more than I think 2 weeks ago and less than 10 months. It is counted the same way as having been vaccinated.

 

[Taxexemption]

In that case, it will be YOU who will have to live in a society that you will have to deal with. Not the other way around where you were beating your chest on how we will have to deal with you. If you are so paranoid then go live in the mountains off the grid. I don't think any medication or treatment should be mandated by law but it's your choice to not take something that could save you and your family a lot of trouble down the line.

I'm skeptical of this society's ability to force its will on me, and in resisting I will be participating in a virtuous struggle. I'd like to live off the grid in a community of like minded individuals, but it can take quite a bit of money to make that a sustainable proposition. My dream is to earn enough money by participating in the system to make being a subsistence farmer a sustainable choice that I can make. Outside of that, I don't think the current political paradigm is sustainable. I don't think there will ever be a mandate that can force people to take vaccines.


Imagine for a moment that there was forced vaccinations. How is it going to look on the news the first time a minority or member of the LGBTQ community dies while resisting vaccination? Let's make it a real good one. Proud father of three, member of the nation of Islam who thinks that vaccination is a conspiracy harm black people, cites the Tuskegee experiments and other unethical medical studies as reasons why he is resisting before having a heart attack while police wrestle him to the ground.


So lets assume it's not forced, it's just a bunch of restrictions including numerous ones on employment. Does that hold up in court? What are you going to do with the entire communities of people who cite religious, ethical, or other objections? Realistically it's not going to be me alone on an Island, it will be at minimum tens of millions of people. Do you think our system can bar them from certain categories of employment without effectively discriminating against them? Do you think we have the will to oppress tens of millions of people over the course of decades?


Here is a fun question, am I irrational for not wanting the vaccine? If the answer is yes, the follow up question must be why. If my brain is malfunctioning in such a way that it causes me to be incorrect about something important, might I have a disability? Personally I don't think so, but I think there is a good argument that if all of the people against this vaccine are irrational, then we should be compensated if our irrationality makes it impossible to participate in the system that society has created. Heck, if we can get disability, I bet you'll have a few extra million that decide to avoid vaccination as an easy path to getting on the dole. I don't know that this is the path that will go on, but you are going to have to work with the tens of millions that are not going to want the vaccine.


Our society does not have the will to coerce tens of millions of its own citizens to do something they don't want to. By attempting to do so they will create parallel societies with strong bonds, which will cause issues of its own. You will be creating a situation where everyone who is anti-vax is essentially forced into like minded communities. Any real attempt at what is being proposed will cause all kinds of problems that are not possible to foresee at the exact moment we are in. I look forward to reading various vaccination related employment lawsuits in our near future.

 

[ManaByte]

Offspring drummer says he’s been booted from band for not getting vaccinated

Pete Parada says he's been told not to show up at the studio, though he says he has a medical reason for not getting the vaccine.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[ManaByte]

 

[Halo is Back]

I'm skeptical of this society's ability to force its will on me, and in resisting I will be participating in a virtuous struggle. I'd like to live off the grid in a community of like minded individuals, but it can take quite a bit of money to make that a sustainable proposition. My dream is to earn enough money by participating in the system to make being a subsistence farmer a sustainable choice that I can make. Outside of that, I don't think the current political paradigm is sustainable. I don't think there will ever be a mandate that can force people to take vaccines.


Imagine for a moment that there was forced vaccinations. How is it going to look on the news the first time a minority or member of the LGBTQ community dies while resisting vaccination? Let's make it a real good one. Proud father of three, member of the nation of Islam who thinks that vaccination is a conspiracy harm black people, cites the Tuskegee experiments and other unethical medical studies as reasons why he is resisting before having a heart attack while police wrestle him to the ground.


So lets assume it's not forced, it's just a bunch of restrictions including numerous ones on employment. Does that hold up in court? What are you going to do with the entire communities of people who cite religious, ethical, or other objections? Realistically it's not going to be me alone on an Island, it will be at minimum tens of millions of people. Do you think our system can bar them from certain categories of employment without effectively discriminating against them? Do you think we have the will to oppress tens of millions of people over the course of decades?


Here is a fun question, am I irrational for not wanting the vaccine? If the answer is yes, the follow up question must be why. If my brain is malfunctioning in such a way that it causes me to be incorrect about something important, might I have a disability? Personally I don't think so, but I think there is a good argument that if all of the people against this vaccine are irrational, then we should be compensated if our irrationality makes it impossible to participate in the system that society has created. Heck, if we can get disability, I bet you'll have a few extra million that decide to avoid vaccination as an easy path to getting on the dole. I don't know that this is the path that will go on, but you are going to have to work with the tens of millions that are not going to want the vaccine.


Our society does not have the will to coerce tens of millions of its own citizens to do something they don't want to. By attempting to do so they will create parallel societies with strong bonds, which will cause issues of its own. You will be creating a situation where everyone who is anti-vax is essentially forced into like minded communities. Any real attempt at what is being proposed will cause all kinds of problems that are not possible to foresee at the exact moment we are in. I look forward to reading various vaccination related employment lawsuits in our near future.

Lmao, what the hell are you going on about disabilities? You sure have a knack for overthinking things and putting words within my mouth. Do you have a good reason why you are against the vaccine? As I have said before, I don't believe it should be forced but you will certainly have a hard time in society once the restrictions get tighter. America has a history of failing to force laws on people who already want to do something (war on drugs and prohibition) the success of such restrictions will depend on how strong the opposition is against the vaccination. However, you are more than welcome to take your chances. The data overwhelmingly shows that unvaccinated people have a much higher chance of being hospitalized or die of Covid. Zefan (who just liked your post) also agrees with this statement.

 

[sinnergy]

Covid third wave: Florida surpasses all-time record for hospital admissions

The number of patients in the Sunshine State is higher now than at any point of the pandemic.

www.bbc.com

Like I said, it just builds if you let it go to much .. and explodes, 3 times a charm right? Next time they can keep some measures and prevent this .. but I see this everywhere, apparently we don’t learn from each other in the world, Israel, The Netherlands, France and probably next UK..

 

[xellos2099alpha]

The local school board meeting tonight to decide if they will defy Desantis and mandate masks announced a child had died of Covid, very sad.

Question is should it be mandate or highly recommanded. Mask don't do a whole lot unless it is n95. It help nut nto as useful as peopel think. Proper social distance and frequet hand washing seems more useful. Think of it this in a game term. Wear mask is 10% resistent. Social distance is 40% resistance. Frequent hand wash is another 40%.

 

[Taxexemption]

Lmao, what the hell are you going on about disabilities? You sure have a knack for overthinking things and putting words within my mouth. Do you have a good reason why you are against the vaccine? As I have said before, I don't believe it should be forced but you will certainly have a hard time in society once the restrictions get tighter. America has a history of failing to force laws on people who already want to do something (war on drugs and prohibition) the success of such restrictions will depend on how strong the opposition is against the vaccination. However, you are more than welcome to take your chances. The data overwhelmingly shows that unvaccinated people have a much higher chance of being hospitalized or die of Covid. Zefan (who just liked your post) also agrees with this statement.

I have a bunch of different reasons. A pragmatic reason is that I have unusual allergies which include very common medications. I'm more at risk of having an allergic reaction than the average person is. This risk is extremely hard to quantify, I'm allergic to medications that very few people are and it's unclear precisely what ingredients in them I'm allergic to. This will hopefully be my ticket to a medical exemption if it's made mandatory and I am not able to get a religious exemption.


In general I'm skeptical that they can really determine if the vaccine is safe or effective in such a short period of time, and I don't trust anyone involved in these corporations or in our government to honestly communicate with the public.

 

[Loki]

OMG 16 cases per 100,000 people, of which 0.5% will die, meaning 0.08/100K people or 1 person for every 1,200,000 will die. Shut down society! Abrogate all rights forthwith!

 

[Halo is Back]

I have a bunch of different reasons. A pragmatic reason is that I have unusual allergies which include very common medications. I'm more at risk of having an allergic reaction than the average person is. This risk is extremely hard to quantify, I'm allergic to medications that very few people are and it's unclear precisely what ingredients in them I'm allergic to. This will hopefully be my ticket to a medical exemption if it's made mandatory and I am not able to get a religious exemption.


In general I'm skeptical that they can really determine if the vaccine is safe or effective in such a short period of time, and I don't trust anyone involved in these corporations or in our government to honestly communicate with the public.

If you have a legit medical reason that relates to your history of allergic reactions then no one can fault you for that. Your skepticism is understandable considering big pharma's history but questionable in light of the news that the overwhelming majority who receive the vaccine do not experience adverse side effects and those who choose not to get it have a much higher risk of hospitalization. Almost everyone in my family including me has gotten the vaccine and no problems so far.

 

[Hydelol]

There's no need to "deal" with me. I'm vaccinated and follow the rules.

Cool I don't remember saying anything about vaccines. You do know that there are other things than Covid rules you can break, don't you?

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

The people who support vaccine passports for everyday activities would also support jailing the non-vaccinated if that came to fruition and at this rate it absolutely will in some states.

Jail sounds crazy. An open air work camp follows the science.

 

[FunkMiller]

If you have a legit medical reason that relates to your history of allergic reactions then no one can fault you for that. Your skepticism is understandable considering big pharma's history but questionable in light of the news that the overwhelming majority who receive the vaccine do not experience adverse side effects and those who choose not to get it have a much higher risk of hospitalization. Almost everyone in my family including me has gotten the vaccine and no problems so far.

As more time goes on, the case for not getting vaccine gets more and more shaky, simply because so many people have had it with no problems. Let’s hope Taxexemption doesn’t become one of the poor buggers in an ICU, drowning in their own lungs, and regretting the decision not to take the tiny risk of getting jabbed.

There seems to be a growing amount of people like that, sadly. Paranoia and distrust can cause an awful lot of damage.

 

[terintamel]

Actually this is one of the avenues that allows you to get a ‘Covid pass’ in France - proof that you had Covid more than I think 2 weeks ago and less than 10 months. It is counted the same way as having been vaccinated.

Well that's interesting news. However I'm in the US and there has been no such discussion or mention of anything like that being allowed in any of the places that are pushing these mandates.

 

[MisterFalcon]

OMG 16 cases per 100,000 people, of which 0.5% will die, meaning 0.08/100K people or 1 person for every 1,200,000 will die. Shut down society! Abrogate all rights forthwith!

I'd like to live in your alternate reality where covid killed 1 in 1,2 million, or less then 300 people in the US.

 

[DeepBreath87]

I'd like to live in your alternate reality where covid killed 1 in 1,2 million, or less then 300 people in the US.

I has killed about 180 per 100,000 people in the US to this point. 0.18% of the total population. That’s a lot of people. It’s not exactly the apocalypse though. Covid has definitely receive a very exaggerated reputation. All you have to do is look at the polling data for how many people Americans believe die from the virus vs the actual data.

 

[Loki]

I'd like to live in your alternate reality where covid killed 1 in 1,2 million, or less then 300 people in the US.

False equivalence combined with math fail. No one said or suggested that COVID only killed 300 people in the US. First off, “original” COVID had a higher IFR than the Delta variant based on available data (~1%, though bear in mind that that percentage is heavily skewed by the higher mortality rate among those 65+ years of age - for folks under 60, original COVID was at something like a .6% fatality rate). The fact is that the Delta variant is likely less lethal than classic COVID, thus I put the IFR at .5%. However, even if you put it at .7% or whatever, my point still holds. COVID killed many people in its first year, but the factors contributing to that are not limited to the inherent lethality of the virus. The CDC’s own 7-day rolling averages from last week support the math above: 72,000 cases reported along with 300 deaths (~0.4% IFR). Source: Report on CDC Data. So, if anything, I overstated Delta’s IFR. Also keep in mind that, as has always been the case with COVID, the actual number of cases is likely quite a bit higher than the number of reported cases, which would push the IFR down even lower. Lastly, as always with COVID, that 0.4% IFR is not equal across all cohorts. For those under 50, it is likely 0.25% or less. So again, I am not willing to upend society and lose cherished freedoms in response to that level of threat, nor should any other sane person.

 

[Thaedolus]

As more time goes on, the case for not getting vaccine gets more and more shaky, simply because so many people have had it with no problems. Let’s hope Taxexemption doesn’t become one of the poor buggers in an ICU, drowning in their own lungs, and regretting the decision not to take the tiny risk of getting jabbed.

There seems to be a growing amount of people like that, sadly. Paranoia and distrust can cause an awful lot of damage.

People seem to have the risks backwards, like the assumption is that they won’t get COVID or, if they do, there’s essentially no chance it’ll be serious. Conversely they take the absolutely minute chance of the vaccine hurting them as some sort of life and death situation they’re not willing to risk.

The fact of the matter is: COVID is dangerous, even if you’re young and healthy, and death is only one possible permanent side effect. And with the new super contagious variants, you’re almost certain to get it and spread it at some point. Alternatively: the vaccine is not dangerous and greatly reduces your chance of having any kind of serious illness from COVID, and it’s freely available.

Any other argument about “muh rights!” and the legality or morality of passports or whatever is inconsequential: you’d be a fool not to get the vaccine at this point. Hesitancy at the beginning was somewhat understandable, but that’s less the case as days and weeks and months go by and show that the vaccine is safe and effective. Also don’t complain about lockdowns and masks and the economy if you’re going to spurn the best weapon we have against this thing

 

[Interfectum]

The people who support vaccine passports for everyday activities would also support jailing the non-vaccinated if that came to fruition and at this rate it absolutely will in some states.

 

[Raven117]

The fact of the matter is: COVID is dangerous, even if you’re young and healthy, and death is only one possible permanent side effect.

Any other argument about “muh rights!” and the legality or morality of passports or whatever is inconsequential: you’d be a fool not to get the vaccine at this point.

Well, covid isn’t all THAT dangerous if you are young and healthy. Anything with a survival rate of over 99 percent is not all risky. Don’t know about how many long covid cases there are, but it doesn’t seem to be a large percentage either.

So you are that flippant about rights are you? That statement says alot about you.

My bet is that if you looked deep down, you don’t care whether those people take the vaccine, you just want to make them do it over their objection.
(To be clear, I’m all for the vaccine, but do not believe it’s worth having to mandate it to participate in society)

 

[DeepBreath87]

Yeah. Shrug your shoulders at jailing people who don’t take their medicine. You would’ve been an excellent 1930s German. You would’ve fit right in. But I’m sure you’re queuing up your indignant “false equivalency” argument already. Let me do it for you. You have a “good” reason to express ambivalence towards to jailing of innocent people. Better yet you’ll claim they aren’t innocent, because they didn’t take their medicine. The only people who are innocent are the ones that do what you like. I’m sure it will be something like that. You can save it for someone who hasn’t heard it before.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

People seem to have the risks backwards, like the assumption is that they won’t get COVID or, if they do, there’s essentially no chance it’ll be serious. Conversely they take the absolutely minute chance of the vaccine hurting them as some sort of life and death situation they’re not willing to risk.

The fact of the matter is: COVID is dangerous, even if you’re young and healthy, and death is only one possible permanent side effect. And with the new super contagious variants, you’re almost certain to get it and spread it at some point. Alternatively: the vaccine is not dangerous and greatly reduces your chance of having any kind of serious illness from COVID, and it’s freely available.

Any other argument about “muh rights!” and the legality or morality of passports or whatever is inconsequential: you’d be a fool not to get the vaccine at this point. Hesitancy at the beginning was somewhat understandable, but that’s less the case as days and weeks and months go by and show that the vaccine is safe and effective. Also don’t complain about lockdowns and masks and the economy if you’re going to spurn the best weapon we have against this thing

No one should be forced to do something they are skeptical about just to take their absolute risk of death from 0.0009% to 0.00009%.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Also don’t complain about lockdowns and masks and the economy if you’re going to spurn the best weapon we have against this thing

Exactly this. You can't whine about the vaccine while also complaining about masks or potential lockdowns. The vaccine is the best chance we have against those things being necessary. The "muh rites" people should the ones lining up left and right to take the vaccine that way they can help ensure the masks go away and that lockdowns aren't needed. And the funny part is if they did actually suck it up and do the right thing then things would be going a lot smoother at this point.


Instead we have this anti-vax anti-science circus going on everywhere.

 

[Thaedolus]

Well, covid isn’t all THAT dangerous if you are young and healthy. Anything with a survival rate of over 99 percent is not all risky. Don’t know about how many long covid cases there are, but it doesn’t seem to be a large percentage either.

I wouldn’t elect to take my chance with anything that had a 99% survival rate unless the alternative was somehow worse (e.g. surgery vs. letting something it’s supposed to fix kill me)

So you are that flippant about rights are you? That statement says alot about you.

I’m not flippant about actual rights, I’m flippant about people who think they know their rights when they don’t. See: everyone claiming that asking about their vaccination status violates their “HIPAA rights.” It’s absolute nonsense. You don’t have a right to not be asked something, you don’t have a right to air travel, you don’t have a right to drive a car, etc. People who don’t understand that these are privileges and claim oppression because they can’t obey some rules deserve mockery.

My bet is that if you looked deep down, you don’t care whether those people take the vaccine, you just want to make them do it over their objection.
(To be clear, I’m all for the vaccine, but do not believe it’s worth having to mandate it to participate in society)

I care about people getting the vaccine because when cases skyrocket and our medical system is overwhelmed and the economy suffers, or I get sick myself, it directly affects me. I genuinely want everyone to be healthy and well, and most people I see who are hesitant are simply uninformed or misunderstanding the risks at play.

 

[Infiltrator Irelia]

Cool I don't remember saying anything about vaccines. You do know that there are other things than Covid rules you can break, don't you?

But I don't break rules.

 

[DeepBreath87]

I wouldn’t elect to take my chance with anything that had a 99% survival rate unless the alternative was somehow worse (e.g. surgery vs. letting something it’s supposed to fix kill me)

This isn’t about what you would do though. It’s not about what I would do. I made decision to get the shots, same as you. But I this is about whether other people are allowed to make different choices and how much we should discriminate against them if they make a choices we don’t necessarily agree with.

The idea that we can or should harshly discriminate against people based on health decisions is… dicey. But it’s not entirely without precedent I guess. We don’t allow pregnant people on certain amusement park rides for instance. It’s just a matter of whether we actually think curtailing the things unvaccinated are allowed to do (not their rights, which should not be infringed upon in any way) will actually make anything better.

I just don’t think it will. I think it will further stratify society and breed resentment, while not doing very much to actually change the spread of the virus, which will likely run its course either way

 

[Nobody_Important]

This isn’t about what you would do though. It’s not about what I would do. I made decision to get the shots, same as you. But I this is about whether other people are allowed to make different choices and how much we should discriminate against them if they make a choices we don’t necessarily agree with.

We are not talking about simple differences of opinion though. We are talking about a tangible effect of overall safety. The vaccines make a difference. People should absolutely be entitled to make whatever ignorant or uninformed choices they want as they go through life, but once those choices start messing with the safety and health of others that is a problem. Nearly all of the people who are opposed to the vaccine are not doing so for some deeply held religious belief or some other genuine reason. They are refusing the vaccine out of spite towards those who are pushing it (politics) or they are doing it because they have genuinely been taken in by the lies and misinformation being pushed by grifters in the media or online.


And that is what is happening right now with this whole vaccine nonsense. You have a multitude of either the intentionally ignorant who simply don't care what is true and what isn't so long as it's what they wanna hear or you have genuinely misinformed people who don't know any better. And these two groups are creating a feedback loop of spite and doubt toward something that we know is safe and that we know is effective. And most of it is being fueled by disingenuous grifters on tv, radio, and social media who are trying to make either money or fame off the ignorance of others. They don't give a shit if the vaccine is actually dangerous or not, but they know their listeners do. So they keep spreading lies and misinformation which in turn creates doubt and ignorance about something that everyone should be lining up to take.


And that is just not the same as genuine differences of opinion or outlook. It's a dangerous decision that affects others that is being based on a foundation of misinformation and outright lies.

 

[12Goblins]

 

[Deleted member 17706]

We are not talking about simple differences of opinion though. We are talking about a tangible effect of overall safety. The vaccines make a difference. People should absolutely be entitled to make whatever ignorant or uninformed choices they want as they go through life, but once those choices start messing with the safety and health of others that is a problem. Nearly all of the people who are opposed to the vaccine are not doing so for some deeply held religious belief or some other genuine reason. They are refusing the vaccine out of spite towards those who are pushing it (politics) or they are doing it because they have genuinely been taken in by the lies and misinformation being pushed by grifters in the media or online.

And that is what is happening right now with this whole vaccine nonsense. You have a multitude of either the intentionally ignorant who simply don't care what is true and what isn't so long as it's what they wanna hear or you have genuinely misinformed people who don't know any better. And these two groups are creating a feedback loop of spite and doubt toward something that we know is safe and that we know is effective. And most of it is being fueled by disingenuous grifters on tv, radio, and social media who are trying to make either money or fame off the ignorance of others. They don't give a shit if the vaccine is actually dangerous or not, but they know their listeners do. So they keep spreading lies and misinformation which in turn creates doubt and ignorance about something that everyone should be lining up to take.

And that is just not the same as genuine differences of opinion or outlook. It's a dangerous decision that affects others that is being based on a foundation of misinformation and outright lies.

There are all sorts of things that can have "tangible effects of overall safety" that we do not mandate. Your line of what is acceptable to mandate is just different than that of others. It's really that simple.

You like to call people ignorant, but a lot of us are just waiting and seeing how this all pans out. At this point in time, the vaccines are simply not looking like a very high value proposition for healthy people under 50 or 60 or so.

 

[Nobody_Important]

There are all sorts of things that can have "tangible effects of overall safety" that we do not mandate. Your line of what is acceptable to mandate is just different than that of others. It's really that simple.

You like to call people ignorant, but a lot of us are just waiting and seeing how this all pans out. At this point in time, the vaccines are simply not looking like a very high value proposition for healthy people under 50 or 60 or so.

And what is your definition of a high value proposition? Is protecting your health and the health of others not of high value? And don't give me oh but 1% or whatever. We already know that the vaccines drastically reduced the chances of being able to get covid. And we already know that the vaccines are safe as evidenced by the the uncountable millions of doses that have been safely administered all over the world.


If you wanted to give me the wait and see spiel within the first few weeks of the vaccines rolling out then I would have given you that, but at this point it's just stubbornness and spite.