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[Deleted member 17706]

And what is your definition of a high value proposition? Is protecting your health and the health of others not of high value? And don't give me oh but 1% or whatever. We already know that the vaccines drastically reduced the chances of being able to get covid. And we already know that the vaccines are safe as evidenced by the the uncountable millions of doses that have been safely administered all over the world.


If you wanted to give me the wait and see spiel within the first few weeks of the vaccines rolling out then I would have given you that, but at this point it's just stubbornness and spite.

I've made plenty of posts in this thread about the data coming out of England, and the numbers there just do not present a strong case to me for vaccination against Delta for those under 50. The next report should be out this Friday.

Israel (Pfizer) as well, does not seem to indicate a great value proposition for all but the elderly and it's going to be interesting to see if their estimates of efficacy against infection continue to plummet.

I'm guessing our Delta peak comes in 2 to 3 weeks from now if it plays out like India and England.

 

[Thaedolus]

This isn’t about what you would do though. It’s not about what I would do. I made decision to get the shots, same as you. But I this is about whether other people are allowed to make different choices and how much we should discriminate against them if they make a choices we don’t necessarily agree with.

The idea that we can or should harshly discriminate against people based on health decisions is… dicey. But it’s not entirely without precedent I guess. We don’t allow pregnant people on certain amusement park rides for instance. It’s just a matter of whether we actually think curtailing the things unvaccinated are allowed to do (not their rights, which should not be infringed upon in any way) will actually make anything better.

I just don’t think it will. I think it will further stratify society and breed resentment, while not doing very much to actually change the spread of the virus, which will likely run its course either way

I don’t think you can morally or legally compel someone to be vaccinated against their will. I do think you can morally and legally curtail their privileges (not constitutional rights) for the safety of others. There’s over 100 years of legal precedent for this. That this has a “coercive” effect of incentivizing them to do something they might not otherwise want to do is beside the point. That people might get resentful over it is something worth considering when deciding whether or not it’s good policy, but I think the eventual effect (“oh fuck it I want to fly, give me the damn shot”) will negate whatever further resentment might take hold.

The new variants cropping up around the world make me worried this won’t just burn itself out, and possibly the worst is yet to come, if we don’t vaccinate. Masks and distancing and lockdowns simply aren’t tenable forever. Vaccines that mitigate the risks are.

 

[Halo is Back]

There are all sorts of things that can have "tangible effects of overall safety" that we do not mandate. Your line of what is acceptable to mandate is just different than that of others. It's really that simple.

You like to call people ignorant, but a lot of us are just waiting and seeing how this all pans out. At this point in time, the vaccines are simply not looking like a very high value proposition for healthy people under 50 or 60 or so.

How is the vaccine "not a high-value proposition for healthy people under 50 or 60"? What data do you have that proves these vaccines are dangerous for these populations? How is it not a high-value proposition when the state I live in is being overwhelmed with hospitalizations from Covid patients because we have one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country? Because of this, we are now back to a mask mandate with private businesses.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

How is the vaccine "not a high-value proposition for healthy people under 50 or 60"? What data do you have that proves these vaccines are dangerous for these populations? How is it not a high-value proposition when the state I live in is being overwhelmed with hospitalizations from Covid patients because we have one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country? Because of this, we are now back to a mask mandate with private businesses.

Here's a post I made about it earlier. There should be a new report from England this Friday, so I'm interested in seeing how things have changed in the last couple of weeks as deaths have risen a bit, but reports from the symptom tracker app also indicated a decline in unvaccinated cases and an increase in vaccinated cases.

What state do you live in and what kind of numbers are we talking about?

 

[Raven117]

I wouldn’t elect to take my chance with anything that had a 99% survival rate unless the alternative was somehow worse (e.g. surgery vs. letting something it’s supposed to fix kill me)

I’m not flippant about actual rights, I’m flippant about people who think they know their rights when they don’t. See: everyone claiming that asking about their vaccination status violates their “HIPAA rights.” It’s absolute nonsense. You don’t have a right to not be asked something, you don’t have a right to air travel, you don’t have a right to drive a car, etc. People who don’t understand that these are privileges and claim oppression because they can’t obey some rules deserve mockery.


I care about people getting the vaccine because when cases skyrocket and our medical system is overwhelmed and the economy suffers, or I get sick myself, it directly affects me. I genuinely want everyone to be healthy and well, and most people I see who are hesitant are simply uninformed or misunderstanding the risks at play.

That's fine (if you want to indulge in threshold bias). You do stuff everyday that has more risk (and there is probably a safer alternative).

You do have a right of privacy (and be very careful how you argue against privacy...as privacy was the basis of roe v. wade...(not to bring in an abortion discussion, but a privacy right acknowledgement)). Under your flippant definition of rights, you can drive a truck of totalitarianism through it. Your privilege v. rights issue is a red-herring in this context. Besides, there is a mountain of case law discussing privilege v. rights, and the government can't force a violation of a right through the limitation of a privilege. The only thing here that deserves mockery is your position regarding how you view individuals right to choose what is best for them. (In the same post, you then say some people deserve mockery, yet then say "I want everyone to be healthy and well") Its your type of thinking that ends in jackboots. Its authoritatism masquerading as virtue. Good intentions pave the way to hell.

As for the third point. We are WELL below medical systems getting overwhelmed in the U.S. They didn't didn't the height of Covid, and now that over half of the country is vaccinated, you think this is still a risk? This isn't March/April 2020. If you are vaccinated (assuming you believe in the vaccine), then you wont get sick (yeah, there are some breakthrough cases, but as of now, statistically insignificant). I want people to be healthy and well also, but I will not advocate making choices for them because "I know better." I'm all for fighting misinformation and addressing misunderstanding, but will not resort to force. The "free market" will sort this out. If they view the risk of the vaccine greater than the risk of Covid, then they don't have to take it. However, as we have seen, now that cases are increasing again, vaccine uptake has increased. Accordingly, some now view the risk of covid over the risk of the vaccine.

 

[12Goblins]

 

[Raven117]

here’s over 100 years of legal precedent for this.

Yeah, and none with a public health issue with a 99% survival rate.

The issue is "how far should the state be allowed to go." As it always is. Something with a 99 percent survival rate....I advocate is too far.

The continuing tensions between individual rights and public health. Talking Point on public health versus civil liberties

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Infiltrator Irelia]

The short and simple truth of the matter is that if you are anti vax and refuse to get the vaccine at this stage of the pandemic, you hate your country and you hate your countrymen. You are no patriot. You want to see the country whither and die on the vine, all in the name of childish petulance. There is simply no other explanation at this point.

 

[Raven117]

He shouldn't because....

 

[Zangiefy360]

Exactly this. You can't whine about the vaccine while also complaining about masks or potential lockdowns. The vaccine is the best chance we have against those things being necessary. The "muh rites" people should the ones lining up left and right to take the vaccine that way they can help ensure the masks go away and that lockdowns aren't needed. And the funny part is if they did actually suck it up and do the right thing then things would be going a lot smoother at this point.


Instead we have this anti-vax anti-science circus going on everywhere.

I don't think you have a good handle on the data for who is and isn't getting vaccinated.

So tell us all, what's your plan for getting the black community and other POCs to take the vaccine so this anti-science circus can come to an end?

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/...bal-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html

 

[Guileless]

Illuminating back and forth between Nate Silver and a NYT reporter:

 

[Nobody_Important]

I don't think you have a good handle on the data for who is and isn't getting vaccinated.

So tell us all, what's your plan for getting the black community and other POCs to take the vaccine so this anti-science circus can come to an end?

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/...bal-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html

What does race have to do with this? I don't care what color someone's skin is. I just want people to be vaccinated.

 

[12Goblins]

He shouldn't because....

I don't think you understand what he's saying

 

[Raven117]

I don't think you have a good handle on the data for who is and isn't getting vaccinated.

So tell us all, what's your plan for getting the black community and other POCs to take the vaccine so this anti-science circus can come to an end?

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/...bal-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html

He just wants to force them. Robbing them of individual automony to make their own decisions. No problem.

 

[Raven117]

I don't think you understand what he's saying

I don't think you are.

Cloth masks = not very effective. N95 = Effective.

People wear cloth masks (not N95) = People wearing "not very effective" masks.

Brostradamus right again.

 

[RoboFu]

FL still going UP UP UP,,, hospitals being filled with *gasp* unvaccinated people!!??

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't think you understand what he's saying

"The face cloth coverings the people wear are not very effective in reducing any of the virus movement in or out--either you're breathing out or you're breathing in."

Seems pretty damn clear to me and aligns with everything we've observed up until now, but I don't think we're allowed to talk about it in this thread.

 

[Raven117]

FL still going UP UP UP,,, hospitals being filled with *gasp* unvaccinated people!!??

They have made their choice.

Hopefully others see this, and don't make the same mistake.

/fin

 

[Deleted member 17706]

FL still going UP UP UP,,, hospitals being filled with *gasp* unvaccinated people!!??

Where is the source data for this claim that breaks down the hospitalized by vaccination status and reason for hospitalization? I would love to take a look.

 

[BouncyFrag]

He shouldn't because....

The childish bickering over masks has never been about health. It is about control and fear.

 

[Nobody_Important]

The childish bickering over masks has never been about health. It is about control and fear.

Well you are half right. It's definitely been childish.

 

[12Goblins]

I don't think you have a good handle on the data for who is and isn't getting vaccinated.

So tell us all, what's your plan for getting the black community and other POCs to take the vaccine so this anti-science circus can come to an end?

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/...bal-distribution/us-vaccine-demographics.html

it's always been a class issue even though people like to pretend its a political democrats vs republican issue. Republicans have money and t hey see doctors routinely. Their doctors tell them to get vaccinated.

"The face cloth coverings the people wear are not very effective in reducing any of the virus movement in or out--either you're breathing out or you're breathing in."

Seems pretty damn clear to me and aligns with everything we've observed up until now, but I don't think we're allowed to talk about it in this thread.

I don't think you are.

Cloth masks = not very effective. N95 = Effective.

People wear cloth masks (not N95) = People wearing "not very effective" masks.

Brostradamus right again.

cloth masks contain some of your germs. n95's contain all your germs. its not rocket science god damn why do I have to hold everyone's fucking hand to get people to stop trying to fit information to their dumbass agenda

 

[Deleted member 17706]

cloth masks contain some of your germs. n95's contain all your germs. its not rocket science god damn why do I have to hold everyone's fucking hand to get people to stop trying to fit information to their dumbass agenda

Cool, but we're not talking about "germs" and bacteria. We're talking about a much smaller virus.

 

[Raven117]

it's always been a class issue even though people like to pretend its a political democrats vs republican issue. Republicans have money and t hey see doctors routinely. Their doctors tell them to get vaccinated.


cloth masks contain some of your germs. n95's contain all your germs. its not rocket science god damn why do I have to hold everyone's fucking hand to get people to stop trying to fit information to their dumbass agenda

NOT VERY EFFECTIVE. - Dr. Osterholm, epidemiologist and Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy.

So what agenda is that Goblins? You know more about it than Dr. Osterholm (who was on Biden's Covid 19 committee), or are we going to argue what "not very effective" means? (And what Zefah said...germs and bacteria are not aresoled virus loads (or droplets)...huge difference).

I do think while this thread has a ban on discussing masks in detail...since there is a movement to reinstate them, the discussion may need to be renewed. Regardless, I'll stop discussing this point.

 

[Zangiefy360]

What does race have to do with this? I don't care what color someone's skin is. I just want people to be vaccinated.

Race has everything to do with it, according to the data. Your fantasy that it's due to a hoard of Jenny McCarthy clones that are resisting because of "muh rights" is factually incorrect.

 

[Raven117]

Race has everything to do with it, according to the data. Your fantasy that it's due to a hoard of Jenny McCarthy clones that are resisting because of "muh rights" is factually incorrect.

Yeah, they think the anti-vaxxers are the toothless MAGA hat wearing rednecks...and they want to force it on them. Thats what it really comes down to. None of this "I want everyone to be healthy...I just don't believe that."

 

[Rock And Roll]

Exactly this. You can't whine about the vaccine while also complaining about masks or potential lockdowns. The vaccine is the best chance we have against those things being necessary. The "muh rites" people should the ones lining up left and right to take the vaccine that way they can help ensure the masks go away and that lockdowns aren't needed. And the funny part is if they did actually suck it up and do the right thing then things would be going a lot smoother at this point.


Instead we have this anti-vax anti-science circus going on everywhere.

Yes you can. Do you think anyone who is against the vaccine is asking for lockdowns and masking? They don't want lockdowns or masks because the effectiveness of these are highly questionable. We were told if you got vaccinated you wouldn't have to wear a mask anymore and now they are threatening to bring back masks. You can claim anti-science (and I won't deny there are a lot of people out there who are actually sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring certain things) but then also ignore the fact that breakthrough cases seem to be happening close to the same amount as unvaccinated people. It's been clear covid is here to stay since last year and pretending that if we all got vaccinated it will go away and the only people spreading it are unvaccinated is amti-science.

This "anti-science" cultish mentality goes both ways. You can be on the right and think it's back loaded with chemicals to kill us/make us infertile or whatever it is they babble on about or you can be on the left, who continually ignore data that isn't in favor of the agenda and continue to move the goalposts as the "science" is updated.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Race has everything to do with it, according to the data. Your fantasy that it's due to a hoard of Jenny McCarthy clones that are resisting because of "muh rights" is factually incorrect.

Where the hell did I say anything about the skin color of the people involved? Ignorant misinformation and grifting is not exclusively effective against only white people. It can affect everyone from all walks of life.


What a bizarre direction to try and take this.

 

[RoboFu]

Where is the source data for this claim that breaks down the hospitalized by vaccination status and reason for hospitalization? I would love to take a look.

I mean its easy to google but....

The delta variant is 'ripping through the unvaccinated' and crowding hospitals in Florida, Texas

COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths were up in nearly all 50 states last week, fronted by Florida and Texas, according to CDC data.

www.usatoday.com

"Nowhere is the strain more apparent than Florida, which reached a new peak Tuesday of 11,515 people hospitalized with COVID-19, according to data from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

Hospitals in Jacksonville and Orlando last week crashed through their pandemic peaks, and hospitals in Miami-Dade County are at or approaching record coronavirus hospitalizations this week, said Mary Mayhew, CEO of Florida Hospital Association.

And cases continue to surge, with 110,477 residents testing positive for the COVID-19 virus for the week that ended July 29, foreshadowing more people needing hospital care in the weeks ahead.

"The delta variant is ripping through the unvaccinated," Mayhew said. "




With more than 1,000 coronavirus patients at hospitals across its six-county region, Orlando's AdventHealth suspended non-emergency operations last week to free up staff and space. More than 90% of COVID-19 patients at AdventHealth's hospitals are unvaccinated, and the small number of vaccinated patients with COVID-19 typically have underlying conditions such as cancer or autoimmune disease, the hospital said.


"

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I mean its easy to google but....

The delta variant is 'ripping through the unvaccinated' and crowding hospitals in Florida, Texas

COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths were up in nearly all 50 states last week, fronted by Florida and Texas, according to CDC data.

www.usatoday.com

"Nowhere is the strain more apparent than Florida, which reached a new peak Tuesday of 11,515 people hospitalized with COVID-19, according to data from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

Hospitals in Jacksonville and Orlando last week crashed through their pandemic peaks, and hospitals in Miami-Dade County are at or approaching record coronavirus hospitalizations this week, said Mary Mayhew, CEO of Florida Hospital Association.

And cases continue to surge, with 110,477 residents testing positive for the COVID-19 virus for the week that ended July 29, foreshadowing more people needing hospital care in the weeks ahead.

"The delta variant is ripping through the unvaccinated," Mayhew said. "




With more than 1,000 coronavirus patients at hospitals across its six-county region, Orlando's AdventHealth suspended non-emergency operations last week to free up staff and space. More than 90% of COVID-19 patients at AdventHealth's hospitals are unvaccinated, and the small number of vaccinated patients with COVID-19 typically have underlying conditions such as cancer or autoimmune disease, the hospital said.


"

That's certainly a mainstream media article, but where is the data that differentiates between vaccinated and unvaccinated and thus, I assume, forms the basis for the claim?

 

[RoboFu]

That's certainly a mainstream media article, but where is the data that differentiates between vaccinated and unvaccinated and thus, I assume, forms the basis for the claim?

so you are are saying the surge is all made up and Mary Mayhew, CEO of Florida Hospital Association citing U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is a liar?


yeah thats whats going on.

 

[Raven117]

so you are are saying the surge is all made up and Mary Mayhew, CEO of Florida Hospital Association citing U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is a liar?


yeah thats whats going on.

Not saying it isn't. But what is the data between the vaccinated and unvaccinated?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

so youare are saying the surge is all moade up and Mary Mayhew, CEO of Florida Hospital Association citing U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is a liar?

yeah thats whats going on.

I'm saying I want to see the underlying data. Florida used to be very transparent about this stuff, but stopped their updates back in June or so.

The reports of hospitalizations being 90% or more unvaccinated are simply incongruous with what we're seeing in the UK and Israel.

 

[Loki]

People seem to have the risks backwards, like the assumption is that they won’t get COVID or, if they do, there’s essentially no chance it’ll be serious. Conversely they take the absolutely minute chance of the vaccine hurting them as some sort of life and death situation they’re not willing to risk.

The fact of the matter is: COVID is dangerous, even if you’re young and healthy, and death is only one possible permanent side effect. And with the new super contagious variants, you’re almost certain to get it and spread it at some point. Alternatively: the vaccine is not dangerous and greatly reduces your chance of having any kind of serious illness from COVID, and it’s freely available.

There appears to be a ~11.5% chance of contracting COVID these days (11.5K cases/100K persons). So we have .115 multipled by the IFR for those under 50 years of age, which is ~0.5%. Thus, the absolute risk of death for those under 50 as things stand currently is .115 * .005 = .000575, or 1 in 1739 people at a population level. Meaning that 1 out of every 1739 people under 50 will die from COVID as it exists now. Again, I’m definitely not willing to shut down society or curtail fundamental rights for that level of threat.

I also have to lol @ whoever said that traveling is not a right. Really? Freedom of movement is not a right? What about people who have immediate family in other states/countries? Those who are fleeing oppressive conditions?

Also, I have to triple LOL @ Mayor DumbBlasio, who says that they are "evaluating" whether to extend the vaccine mandate to grocery stores. You'll see armed conflict fairly rapidly if 35-45% of people can't even buy food.

 

[poppabk]

I'm saying I want to see the underlying data. Florida used to be very transparent about this stuff, but stopped their updates back in June or so.

The reports of hospitalizations being 90% or more unvaccinated are simply incongruous with what we're seeing in the UK and Israel.

They are fairly in line.
Here is a nice article showing how rate of vaccination will affect % of admissions.

Why are 40% of COVID hospitalizations in the UK among the vaccinated?

Q: I heard 40% of COVID hospitalizations in the UK are among the vaccinated. What’s going on, this sounds bad? A: This is a confusing statistic, for sure.

dearpandemic.org

 

[Raven117]

Also, I have to triple LOL @ Mayor DumbBlasio, who says that they are "evaluating" whether to extend the vaccine mandate to grocery stores. You'll see armed conflict fairly rapidly if 35-45% of people can't even buy food.

I just don't understand why you think this is a violation of rights. Just do what I tell you to, and you can eat.

 

[Kilau]

I'm saying I want to see the underlying data. Florida used to be very transparent about this stuff, but stopped their updates back in June or so.

The reports of hospitalizations being 90% or more unvaccinated are simply incongruous with what we're seeing in the UK and Israel.

I’m not sure if anyone actually has that data officially, I only ever see the quotes from hospital officials with estimates on vaccinated versus unvaccinated admissions.

As for Florida, they stopped posting daily data themselves but it’s all on the CDC website.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I’m not sure if anyone actually has that data officially, I only ever see the quotes from hospital officials with estimates on vaccinated versus unvaccinated admissions.

As for Florida, they stopped posting daily data themselves but it’s all on the CDC website.

COVID-NET?

 

[Jaysen]

These stupid motherfuckers.

 

[Jaysen]

Where the hell did I say anything about the skin color of the people involved? Ignorant misinformation and grifting is not exclusively effective against only white people. It can affect everyone from all walks of life.


What a bizarre direction to try and take this.

It’s prevalent in this thread though. “It’s not just white idiots! Look at those black idiots!”

 

[ManaByte]

‘Enough is enough’: L.A. lawmakers want to require proof of COVID vaccination for indoor dining, bars, gyms

With coronavirus case rates again on the rise and the delta variant circulating, the Los Angeles City Council is set to consider whether the city should start requiring residents to show proof of C…

ktla.com

Proof of COVID vaccination would be required to enter public indoor spaces under LA council proposal

Proof of at least partial vaccination against COVID-19 would be required to enter public indoor spaces in the city of Los Angeles under a new proposal.

abc7.com

"Enough is enough already,'' Martinez, who co-introduced the motion with Councilman Mitch O'Farrell, said in a statement. "Hospital workers are exhausted, moms who have put aside their careers are tired, and our kids cannot afford the loss of another school year. We have three vaccines that work and are readily available, so what's it going to take?''

The proposal is similar to a policy announced this week in New York City, but it would be more restrictive with the inclusion of retail establishments, potentially limiting access to some basic necessities. The New York policy restricts access only to more entertainment-oriented venues such as indoor restaurants, fitness centers and theaters.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

 

[Nobody_Important]

How fucking stupid can you be? What did he expect?

 

[12Goblins]

^I appreciate that he can admit his mistake and adjust accordingly. Like he says, hindsight is always 20/20. he gets my respect

 

[Rock And Roll]

These stupid motherfuckers.

Wonder if this mentality applies to the mayor of Boston

 

[sinnergy]

How fucking stupid can you be? What did he expect?

He expected all would be fine that’s what COVID denialers do … haven’t you heard .. it’s just the flu. (Even after 1,5 years with this shit)

 

[sinnergy]

Not saying it isn't. But what is the data between the vaccinated and unvaccinated?

Who gives a shit? It are people .. and a government needs to protect their citizens… not make stupid decisions, not based on science whom recommended measures.

We all know healthcare takes a hit, now non Covid patients are also at risk of dying , a great mind that dude has , great to have as head decision maker

 

[Raven117]

Who gives a shit? It are people .. and a government needs to protect here citizens… not make stupid decisions, not based on science whom recommended measures.

Nope. Try again, jackboots.

For a disease that is not very lethal (just look at the data), mandating a vaccine "for their own good" is not the way a free society works. Extrapolate that principle (which they will) across all manner of activities...and you are signing away your personal autonomy to the government. Ya know...for your own protection.

This is a "social credit score" not all that different from China...Its just coming in the form of a vaccine (if mandated). And would only be the beginning.

 

[Nobody_Important]

He expected all would be fine that’s what COVID denialers do … haven’t you heard .. it’s just the flu. (Even after 1,5 years with this shit)

I need that meme where the guy on the bike shoves a stick in the wheel.

 

[Kilau]

COVID-NET?

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Tons of data if you are interested.