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[Deleted member 17706]

COVID Data Tracker

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.

covid.cdc.gov

Tons of data if you are interested.

Thanks... yeah, still nothing about hospitalizations by age or vaccination status, unfortunately. Just everyone lumped together.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Edit: Shitty day.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yes I would like data please. No wait not that data....

Every. Single. Time.

Jesus Christ, dude... At least follow the conversation thread if you're going to make snide comments.

Lowest effort troll on the board, I swear to God.

 

[WoJ]

Thanks... yeah, still nothing about hospitalizations by age or vaccination status, unfortunately. Just everyone lumped together.

A little after the halfway point there is a section titled Healthcare settings. I didn't dive too deep into this yet but the first link under there looked like you could at least filter by age. Not sure if this is what you are looking for but thought I'd point it out.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

A little after the halfway point there is a section titled Healthcare settings. I didn't dive too deep into this yet but the first link under there looked like you could at least filter by age. Not sure if this is what you are looking for but thought I'd point it out.

Thanks! It looks like you can filter by age at least for new hospital admissions, but not in the hospitalized patients tab. Much appreciated!

 

[Nobody_Important]

Jesus Christ, dude... At least follow the conversation thread if you're going to make snide comments.

Lowest effort troll on the board, I swear to God.

Actually you know what I will apologize for that. It's been a shit week, but I shouldn't snap at people.

 

[Thaedolus]

You do have a right of privacy (and be very careful how you argue against privacy...as privacy was the basis of roe v. wade...(not to bring in an abortion discussion, but a privacy right acknowledgement)).

Of course you have a right to privacy, nobody's disputing that. Nobody can compel you to disclose your vaccination status. But also, anyone citing HIPAA is stupid, and anyone who thinks merely asking if you're vaccinated is violating your right to privacy doesn't understand your rights to privacy. Feel free to decline to disclose anything, nobody's forcing you. But if I don't want to disclose my finances to a financial institution, they don't have to give me a loan. If you don't disclose your vaccination status to entities that have determined they require it for the safety of their other patrons or their own employees, they don't have to serve you.

Under your flippant definition of rights, you can drive a truck of totalitarianism through it. Your privilege v. rights issue is a red-herring in this context. Besides, there is a mountain of case law discussing privilege v. rights, and the government can't force a violation of a right through the limitation of a privilege. The only thing here that deserves mockery is your position regarding how you view individuals right to choose what is best for them.

I'm not saying an individual doesn't have the right to choose what's best for them, they do. And society as a whole can determine that individuals making these choices don't get to endanger the rest of us. It's your right to sit at home and get drunk; it's not your right to get drunk then get behind the wheel of a car. Eliminate alcohol and you still don't have the right to drive: you have to pass a test and pay car registration fees. We also don't let blind people drive, is that a violation of their rights? You can't smoke on a plane because it impacts everyone around you. The analogies go on and on, but nobody's forcing anyone to do anything, and the right to forgo the vaccine doesn't extend to endangering the rest of society.

(In the same post, you then say some people deserve mockery, yet then say "I want everyone to be healthy and well") Its your type of thinking that ends in jackboots. Its authoritatism masquerading as virtue. Good intentions pave the way to hell.

Laughing at the stupid reasons people come up with to validate their desire to endanger the rest of society isn't incongruent with wanting them to be healthy and well, which I think would be a benefit to society. And I'm not out here advocating we turn into China and start welding anti-vaxxers in their houses. I just don't want them sitting next to my kids on a plane.

As for the third point. We are WELL below medical systems getting overwhelmed in the U.S. They didn't didn't the height of Covid, and now that over half of the country is vaccinated, you think this is still a risk? This isn't March/April 2020. If you are vaccinated (assuming you believe in the vaccine), then you wont get sick (yeah, there are some breakthrough cases, but as of now, statistically insignificant). I want people to be healthy and well also, but I will not advocate making choices for them because "I know better." I'm all for fighting misinformation and addressing misunderstanding, but will not resort to force. The "free market" will sort this out. If they view the risk of the vaccine greater than the risk of Covid, then they don't have to take it. However, as we have seen, now that cases are increasing again, vaccine uptake has increased. Accordingly, some now view the risk of covid over the risk of the vaccine.

Tell that to people working in the ICUs around here. They're more crowded than they were at the previous peaks, and the healthcare workers are exhausted and traumatized from a year and a half of watching people die, holding up phones to them so their loved ones can hear their last gasps for air. What a great way to let this thing burn itself out "naturally."

 

[Kilau]

Thanks... yeah, still nothing about hospitalizations by age or vaccination status, unfortunately. Just everyone lumped together.

Yeah, again I’m not sure if that data is out yet and I would be interested in seeing it as well. Still tons of data there.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So what is the best explanation in favor of this massively increased push for vaccination mandates in light of the recent discoveries that breakthrough infections and transmission from fully vaccinated people are higher than initially expected? I'm trying to understand the logic, because it seems rather contradictory.

 

[ManaByte]

 

[poppabk]

Nope. Try again, jackboots.

For a disease that is not very lethal (just look at the data), mandating a vaccine "for their own good" is not the way a free society works. Extrapolate that principle (which they will) across all manner of activities...and you are signing away your personal autonomy to the government. Ya know...for your own protection.

This is a "social credit score" not all that different from China...Its just coming in the form of a vaccine (if mandated). And would only be the beginning.

You can totally have a free society where vaccines can be mandated - if you are in the US you are living in one.
"It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law...."

 

[Raven117]

Of course you have a right to privacy, nobody's disputing that. Nobody can compel you to disclose your vaccination status. But also, anyone citing HIPAA is stupid, and anyone who thinks merely asking if you're vaccinated is violating your right to privacy doesn't understand your rights to privacy. Feel free to decline to disclose anything, nobody's forcing you. But if I don't want to disclose my finances to a financial institution, they don't have to give me a loan. If you don't disclose your vaccination status to entities that have determined they require it for the safety of their other patrons or their own employees, they don't have to serve you.


I'm not saying an individual doesn't have the right to choose what's best for them, they do. And society as a whole can determine that individuals making these choices don't get to endanger the rest of us. It's your right to sit at home and get drunk; it's not your right to get drunk then get behind the wheel of a car. Eliminate alcohol and you still don't have the right to drive: you have to pass a test and pay car registration fees. We also don't let blind people drive, is that a violation of their rights? You can't smoke on a plane because it impacts everyone around you. The analogies go on and on, but nobody's forcing anyone to do anything, and the right to forgo the vaccine doesn't extend to endangering the rest of society.


Laughing at the stupid reasons people come up with to validate their desire to endanger the rest of society isn't incongruent with wanting them to be healthy and well, which I think would be a benefit to society. And I'm not out here advocating we turn into China and start welding anti-vaxxers in their houses. I just don't want them sitting next to my kids on a plane.


Tell that to people working in the ICUs around here. They're more crowded than they were at the previous peaks, and the healthcare workers are exhausted and traumatized from a year and a half of watching people die, holding up phones to them so their loved ones can hear their last gasps for air. What a great way to let this thing burn itself out "naturally."

(1) That is not what privacy means amigo. See Roe v. Wade (discussion on 4th and 14th Amendment). You obviously are just focusing on HIPPA. Thats not what I'm talking about.

(2) We are ultimately talking about lines to draw here. 99% (and better) survivability rate = not risky and not worth mandating. The balance here is not in favor of draconian measures (if we were talking about something more deadly, different analysis...This isn't it). If the government can force anyone to do anything that they deem unsafe (and that can be anything if we are considering things that have a 99% survivability rating), then you are giving up personal autonomy. Might as well be China with a social credit score.

(3) Its not endanger. If you are vaxxed, you are safe. PERIOD. If you are saying you aren't safe, then you don't believe in vaccines. And thus, they were right to begin with. As for your kids...well...you don't have a right to fly. As you said. Quite frankly, I don't think kids should be allowed on airplanes. My flights would sure be alot better. (Hopefully vaccines will be approved for them....and even if they got it...VERY LOW CHANCE OF ANYTHING SERIOUS HAPPENING). You don't get to dictate others people's freedom because you FEEL unsafe. You aren't. Not with a vaccine and kids are fine with Covid.

(4) I don't care how they feel. I didn't choose their job for them and I'm sorry ya know...sick people dying is a part of that job...in a hospital. That is not a reason at all to limit individual freedoms. And yeah, it should burn out naturally. Especially now that we have vaccinations. I think we should all do everything we can to educate and address misinformation...But in the end...if people want to roll the dice...effing let them. Why is it so hard for you and others of your ilk to let people live (and potentially die) by their own decisions? What else do you want to mandate for their own safety? The way you write, it can be absolutely anything. And thats the thing...I don't think they care. They just want them to do what they are told...they want that power...

 

[vpance]

So what is the best explanation in favor of this massively increased push for vaccination mandates in light of the recent discoveries that breakthrough infections and transmission from fully vaccinated people are higher than initially expected? I'm trying to understand the logic, because it seems rather contradictory.

The need for logic has died a long time ago I'm afraid. We're in a phase where they'll continually poke and prod us with new mandates and restrictions to see how we'll react and if we'll allow it. Science became a cult and there's no stopping whoever is manipulating it.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Man needs to watch his language.

 

[Halo is Back]

Here's a post I made about it earlier. There should be a new report from England this Friday, so I'm interested in seeing how things have changed in the last couple of weeks as deaths have risen a bit, but reports from the symptom tracker app also indicated a decline in unvaccinated cases and an increase in vaccinated cases.

What state do you live in and what kind of numbers are we talking about?

Louisiana

https://ldh.la.gov/Coronavirus/

 

[Cockles & Whelks]

Went to my first clubbing event in UK at weekend.

Showing proof of vaccine was done in seconds (think ahead kids and download as a PDF!). Same with my ticket. Took longer to be searched for drugs.

Only thing that slowed things down was dopey youths unaware of this particular clubs policies, probably same little shits that claimed they were robbed of Brexit but didn't even know there was a vote on because they were too busy TikToking their dicks and fannies.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The need for logic has died a long time ago I'm afraid. We're in a phase where they'll continually poke and prod us with new mandates and restrictions to see how we'll react and if we'll allow it. Science became a cult and there's no stopping whoever is manipulating it.

Yeah, that's what I suspect, but I would love to hear whatever the best explanation is and try to candidly evaluate it.

I mean, what we were hearing before this latest Delta panic was that everyone needed to do their part to get vaccinated to protect those who could not. And then it came to light that actually breakthrough infections are more common than we expected (at least with Delta) and vaccinated people who are infected can spread it just as easily as the unvaccinated, and that it seems like vaccine efficacy may be fading over time (Israel data), etc. etc. and somehow that all triggered this renewed vigor to go hardline on vaccine mandates and none of it makes a lick of sense.

 

[Raven117]

You can totally have a free society where vaccines can be mandated - if you are in the US you are living in one.
"It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law...."

LOL, you want to go a few rounds on this? Alright, lets go.

You cited Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905). If you were being completely honest here, you would have used the whole quote which states "It related to compulsory vaccination, and the law was held valid as a proper exercise of the police powers with reference to the public health. It was stated in the opinion that it was a case "of an adult who, for aught that appears, was himself in perfect health and a fit [*56] subject for vaccination, and yet, while remaining in the community, refused to obey the statute and the regulation adopted in execution of its provisions for the protection of the public health and the public safety, confessedly endangered by the presence of a dangerous disease." Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 55-56

Moreover, the vaccination in question was for SMALL POX. According to wiki had a 30% mortality rate. See contra (Covid with less than 1% mortality rate). That is orders of magnitude different than the situation we have with Covid.

Thats not even getting into the other cases that distinguish Jacobson.

So shove that clean up your pipe on that citation. I never said the state CAN'T do it, I said that they shouldn't for lots of different reasons...including following the precedent you cited.

​

 

[Cockles & Whelks]

And a story of caution from the Guardian.

Fitness enthusiast, 42, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid

John Eyers had been climbing mountains four weeks before his death in intensive care

www.theguardian.com

 

[Thaedolus]

I don't care how they feel. I didn't choose their job for them and I'm sorry ya know...sick people dying is a part of that job...in a hospital. That is not a reason at all to limit individual freedoms.

Jesus Christ

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Louisiana

https://ldh.la.gov/Coronavirus/

Not really sure what you're trying to show me with that as a reply to what I asked, but Louisiana does not look in terrible shape. Looks like your cases may have peaked already and your deaths were higher this time last year when cases were lower. Sounds like the vaccines are working to protect those who wanted it.

 

[Halo is Back]

Not really sure what you're trying to show me with that as a reply to what I asked, but Louisiana does not look in terrible shape. Looks like your cases may have peaked already and your deaths were higher this time last year when cases were lower. Sounds like the vaccines are working to protect those who wanted it.

My point exactly on why it is a "high-value proposition"

 

[Deleted member 17706]

My point exactly on why it is a "high-value proposition"

If you're old or obese, and especially if you're old and obese, sure. I can't find a way to breakdown the LA death data by age. Can you help?

 

[Raven117]

Jesus Christ

Hey, I know. Some people are uncomfortable with the jobs they chose that literally deal with death....Lets completely run a truck over each and every citizens' rights to personal autonomy in light of a disease with a less than 1 percent mortality rate. Certainly some folks feelings are more important that the U.S. Constitution and freedoms.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

And a story of caution from the Guardian.

Fitness enthusiast, 42, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid

John Eyers had been climbing mountains four weeks before his death in intensive care

www.theguardian.com

Sad anecdote that shows you really just never know, but a reminder that a total of 45 people under the age of 50 in England had died with the Delta variant from February 1st through July 19th.

 

[Thaedolus]

Hey, I know. Some people are uncomfortable with the jobs they chose that literally deal with death....Lets completely run a truck over each and every citizens' rights to personal autonomy in light of a disease with a less than 1 percent mortality rate. Certainly some folks feelings are more important that the U.S. Constitution and freedoms.

You can keep setting up strawmen to justify the sociopathy or perceived tough guy routine you're displaying here but I'm pretty much done. Agree to disagree.

 

[ManaByte]

 

[vpance]

Yeah, that's what I suspect, but I would love to hear whatever the best explanation is and try to candidly evaluate it.

I mean, what we were hearing before this latest Delta panic was that everyone needed to do their part to get vaccinated to protect those who could not. And then it came to light that actually breakthrough infections are more common than we expected (at least with Delta) and vaccinated people who are infected can spread it just as easily as the unvaccinated, and that it seems like vaccine efficacy may be fading over time (Israel data), etc. etc. and somehow that all triggered this renewed vigor to go hardline on vaccine mandates and none of it makes a lick of sense.

As long as the vaccines reduce chance of infection, they'll want people to get it regardless of the quality and duration of efficacy. After the Israel data came out there's been a steady push of news stating that 90% of hospitalized are unvaccinated. So I believe off of that they ramped up the mandate talks. But truthfully, they were going to come regardless of what the virus was going to do.

At this point it's still much less lethal isn't it? I saw someone in the thread bring up there is worry that hospital beds and ICU are starting to fill up again. So I guess that's the second trigger for mandates.

 

[Raven117]

You can keep setting up strawmen to justify the sociopathy or perceived tough guy routine you're displaying here but I'm pretty much done. Agree to disagree.

Its nether of those things, and what you are proposing is far more insidious. its not as strawman either. You are the one that brought them up.

You are using these frontline workers as justifications not to question your motives of literally robbing people of their personal autonomy to choose a vaccine with less than 1% mortality rate. As I said, you may be well meaning, but you don't realize what you are doing. OR, you know exactly what you are doing, and want to be able to mandate a vaccine to control people the way you want to.

 

[Raven117]

Need several days like this? What does he mean?

 

[Zangiefy360]

Where the hell did I say anything about the skin color of the people involved? Ignorant misinformation and grifting is not exclusively effective against only white people. It can affect everyone from all walks of life.


What a bizarre direction to try and take this.

It's not a bizarre direction at all.

As you casually talk about taking away the rights of people for being "ignorant" it's obvious you don't know the consequences of what you're talking about. In your mind, you believe it's the deplorables that voted for President Trump that are going to get railroaded, but that's only because you don't know the data. What you're really doing is cheer-leading for kneeling on the necks of the entire black community. I don't think you're purposely being racist, but you're advocating for racist policy without a doubt.

 

[Raven117]

It's not a bizarre direction at all.

As you casually talk about taking away the rights of people for being "ignorant" it's obvious you don't know the consequences of what you're talking about. In your mind, you believe it's the deplorables that voted for President Trump that are going to get railroaded, but that's only because you don't know the data. What you're really doing is cheer-leading for kneeling on the necks of the entire black community. I don't think you're purposely being racist, but you're advocating for racist policy without a doubt.

You see...its only racist when Republicans make policy with disparate impact.

Thought you knew that Zangiefy.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

But the CDC told me they were committed to vaccine equity!

 

[Nobody_Important]

It's not a bizarre direction at all.

As you casually talk about taking away the rights of people for being "ignorant" it's obvious you don't know the consequences of what you're talking about. In your mind, you believe it's the deplorables that voted for President Trump that are going to get railroaded, but that's only because you don't know the data.

Where in the hell did I mention Trump?? What are you even talking about? Dude you came in here bringing up race and now Trump when nobody even said anything about either.


You need to step away from the computer and get some air I think because you sound like a nutcase right now.

 

[Zangiefy360]

But the CDC told me they were committed to vaccine equity!

Shocker it isn't working!

If NY, CA, and other left leaning states have their way the black community is getting a one ways ticket to indefinite state dependency. Or perhaps that's the plan?

Where in the hell did I mention Trump?? What are you even talking about? Dude you came in here bringing up race and now Trump when nobody even said anything about either.


You need to step away from the computer and get some air I think because you sound like a nutcase right now.

OK, now that you got that out of the way, how about putting some thought into a response?

 

[Halo is Back]

If you're old or obese, and especially if you're old and obese, sure. I can't find a way to breakdown the LA death data by age. Can you help?

https://ldh.la.gov/index.cfm/page/4065

We already knew this for a long time. However, don't you find it interesting that once we relaxed Covid mandates, coupled with the fact that we have one of the lowest rates of vaccinations in the country our cases are exploding including the number of hospitalizations of those particularly not fully vaccinated?

Simply put, the best way to protect yourself and your community is to get fully vaccinated. Especially if you have any underlying health conditions.

At this point, I don't see any good reason why someone would not get the vaccine unless they are immune-compromised.

 

[Nobody_Important]

OK, now that you got that out of the way, how about putting some thought into a response?

You first lol


You came in here bringing up race and now politics out of nowhere when nobody brought up either. Then you accused me of being racist because I support vaccination. You need help.

 

[Raven117]

Simply put, the best way to protect yourself and your community is to get fully vaccinated. Especially if you have any underlying health conditions.

Of course.

 

[Jaysen]

Wonder if this mentality applies to the mayor of Boston

Why wouldn’t it?

 

[Zangiefy360]

You first lol


You came in here bringing up race and now politics out of nowhere when nobody brought up either. Then you accused me of being racist because I support vaccination. You need help.

Well, it's clear to everyone reading this thread that you want to kick people of color, who are impacted disproportionately by COVID, while they are down.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Sad anecdote that shows you really just never know, but a reminder that a total of 45 people under the age of 50 in England had died with the Delta variant from February 1st through July 19th.

Hi Zefah, do you have a link to this data or story?

Curiosity on my part as I haven't been able to find any Delta specific data for age groups.

Thanks.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Well, it's clear to everyone reading this thread that you want to kick people of color, who are impacted disproportionately by COVID, while they are down.

Supporting vaccination is not racist. Good lord.


You have to be trolling. It's the only explanation. Nobody can be that dense.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Hi Zefah, do you have a link to this data or story?

Curiosity on my part as I haven't been able to find any Delta specific data for age groups.

Thanks.

Sure thing! It's right here in the latest report from Public Health England:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1005517/Technical_Briefing_19.pdf

See Table 5 on pages 18 and 19.

And here is their archive of previous reports:

Investigation of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern: technical briefings

Technical briefing documents on novel SARS-CoV-2 variants.

www.gov.uk

 

[Rock And Roll]

Why wouldn’t it?

Great, just wanted to clarify that you believe someone is a "dumb motherfucker" for pointing out the parallels in requiring people (most often minorities) to show papers or be segregated/shunned from society, because we all know historically these measures have worked out splendidly.

 

[poppabk]

LOL, you want to go a few rounds on this? Alright, lets go.

You cited Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905). If you were being completely honest here, you would have used the whole quote which states "It related to compulsory vaccination, and the law was held valid as a proper exercise of the police powers with reference to the public health. It was stated in the opinion that it was a case "of an adult who, for aught that appears, was himself in perfect health and a fit [*56] subject for vaccination, and yet, while remaining in the community, refused to obey the statute and the regulation adopted in execution of its provisions for the protection of the public health and the public safety, confessedly endangered by the presence of a dangerous disease." Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 55-56

Moreover, the vaccination in question was for SMALL POX. According to wiki had a 30% mortality rate. See contra (Covid with less than 1% mortality rate). That is orders of magnitude different than the situation we have with Covid.

Thats not even getting into the other cases that distinguish Jacobson.

So shove that clean up your pipe on that citation. I never said the state CAN'T do it, I said that they shouldn't for lots of different reasons...including following the precedent you cited.

​

Showed me. 250 deaths in a city of 500k over 3 years. Scale that up to the current US population and you are looking at 200000 deaths over 3 years. It's just on a completely different scale to COVID.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

https://ldh.la.gov/index.cfm/page/4065

All that shows is the age data for the entire pandemic, I believe. I'm talking about the more recent weekly data.

We already knew this for a long time. However, don't you find it interesting that once we relaxed Covid mandates, coupled with the fact that we have one of the lowest rates of vaccinations in the country our cases are exploding including the number of hospitalizations of those particularly not fully vaccinated?

No, because it's following a seasonal trend, and deaths are down year over year while cases are up (same thing we're seeing elsewhere with Delta).

Simply put, the best way to protect yourself and your community is to get fully vaccinated. Especially if you have any underlying health conditions.

Sure, if you want to get vaccinated for the extra protection, go for it. I am not trying to stop anyone.

At this point, I don't see any good reason why someone would not get the vaccine unless they are immune-compromised.

Luckily for everyone, you're not the arbiter of what constitutes a good reason.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Supporting vaccination is not racist. Good lord.

No, but salivating at the idea of shunning and segregating the unvaccinated while knowing full well that would disproportionately affect historically marginalized ethnic minorities quite possible is.

 

[Halo is Back]

All that shows is the age data for the entire pandemic, I believe. I'm talking about the more recent weekly data.



No, because it's following a seasonal trend, and deaths are down year over year while cases are up (same thing we're seeing elsewhere with Delta).



Sure, if you want to get vaccinated for the extra protection, go for it. I am not trying to stop anyone.



Luckily for everyone, you're not the arbiter of what constitutes a good reason.

What data do you have that proves not getting the vaccine is a good idea?

 

[Nobody_Important]

No, but salivating at the idea of shunning and segregating the unvaccinated while knowing full well that would disproportionately affect historically marginalized ethnic minorities quite possible is.

Stop. Just stop. I know you well enough by now to know you are smarter than that. You aren't going to bait me with that shit.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Stop. Just stop. I know you well enough by now to know you are smarter than that. You aren't going to bait me with that shit.

It's not meant to be a bait at all, but it is in line with that the Boston mayor is also saying.

Boston mayor compares NYC’s vaccine mandate to slavery, birtherism

The mayor of Boston said the city won’t be following New York’s lead requiring proof of vaccination at many indoor businesses, claiming the move is reminiscent of “slavery” …

nypost.com

I think it's dumb policy regardless of who gets disproportionately affected, but the numbers do paint a picture of who will be hurt the most by such policies, and it doesn't look pretty from my vantage point.

Anyway, I'll drop it since apparently it's too political and Zangiefy got banned already.

What data do you have that proves not getting the vaccine is a good idea?

I don't think I ever said it was a good idea. There are far too many factors at play and it completely depends on your situation. That's why it should be left up to the individual and this talk of universal mandates is insane.