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[Deleted member 17706]

So you admit the numbers regarding kids are disturbing and you acknowledge the rise in hospitalizations among young adults, but you still have the same stance towards vaccinations against it.


Help me understand where you are coming from because I don't get it. You clearly see how bad it is, but at the same time you don't seem to care.

Any increase in hospitalizations among young people is disturbing, but are they dying in large numbers? Doesn't seem to be the case in Florida or really anywhere else on the entire planet throughout this pandemic.

Any individual death is tragic, but I don't see why you would let a few anecdotes move you to push for universal vaccination of children when there is a very strong debate about whether or not the benefits outweigh the potential risk.

Like, I could post plenty of anecdotes from Twitter about teens in the hospital with Myocarditis after vaccination. Here's one:



No, I don't think policy should be made based off anecdotes.

 

[Kraz]

I’m sorry, but if you honestly think children are at most risk from covid, we have nothing else to discuss. That is completely unreasonable when looking at any data regarding covid. Period. It’s not up for discussion. It’s simply counter to reality. So if you’re going to persist with that, we can just stop talking and you can go on with your delusions.

"most at risk" can be elaborated upon. The lack of vaccine access and loosening of policies will expose them to heavier viral counts than previously vulnerable groups. Of course the unvaxxed of other groups remain vulnerable, but the hesitant have access to vaccine and for those that cannot for health reasons there will have to be some allowance made for them according to their routine and places/times of congregation. With that some courteous people who are not vulnerable might continue wearing masks when they take transit, for example. Or self isolate, if possible in their circumstance.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Does anyone know where I can find up-to-date vaccination data by age for Florida (or all states, for that matter if available in one location)?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Any increase in hospitalizations among young people is disturbing, but are they dying in large numbers?

So that's where you draw the line? Young people need to be dying in droves? That's insane to me. The goal should be to head off such an outcome. Not to wait until things get that bad and THEN react.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So that's where you draw the line? Young people need to be dying in droves? That's insane to me. The goal should be to head off such an outcome. Not to wait until things get that bad and THEN react.

Any Zero Covid policy is wildly unrealistic. It's never going to happen.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Any Zero Covid policy is wildly unrealistic. It's never going to happen.

And I agree. But it's not an all or nothing situation. You can do the best you can within reason to bring it as close to zero as possible.


You don't just give up and then wait for it to get even worse to try and do something.

 

[DeepBreath87]

"most at risk" can be elaborated upon. The lack of vaccine access and loosening of policies will expose them to heavier viral counts than previously vulnerable groups. Of course the unvaxxed of other groups remain vulnerable, but the hesitant have access to vaccine and for those that cannot for health reasons there will have to be some allowance made for them according to their routine and places/times of congregation. With that some courteous people who are not vulnerable might continue wearing masks when they take transit, for example. Or self isolate, if possible in their circumstance.

That’s just not a reasonable definition of what “most at risk” means. Especially when put in context with the rest of your post. Let’s review.

Hospitilizations? Accurate? Insane.

Vaccine still isn't approved for 12 and under there either?

Used to be the elderly that were the most vulnerable. Now it's the kids.

You were comparing risk between the elderly at the beginning of the pandemic to the risk of children now. There is no reasonable comparison to be made there that isn’t alarmist nonsense.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

The narrative being pushed by a certain side of this mess so far has been that it only affects older people severely and your reaction to a story like that showing that nearly 1/5 of those severely affected are between the ages of 18 and 34 is to say "AHA BUT ITS NOT KIDS LIKE YOU SAID!"


Eventually there's going to come a moment where you guys have to admit that it's just more serious than what you thought. It's okay to be wrong.

Dawg it’s not a narrative it’s the hard numbers, a bunch of overblown anecdotal stories being spread around to prove a point doesn’t change that.

 

[Kraz]

That’s just not a reasonable definition of what “most at risk” means. Especially when put in context with the rest of your post. Let’s review.


You were comparing risk between the elderly at the beginning of the pandemic to the risk of children now. There is no reasonable comparison to be made there that isn’t alarmist nonsense.

Most at risk now doesn't have to mean co-equal to the same risks faced as the elderly. That's an equivalency you're making.

It means given the lack of approved vaccine and loosened restrictions they currently have the least health options and protections since the start of the pandemic making them the most vulnerable as an age demographic.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Most at risk now doesn't have to mean co-equal to the same risks faced as the elderly. That's an equivalency you're making.

It means given the lack of approved vaccine and loosened restrictions they currently have the least health options and protections since the start of the pandemic making them the most vulnerable as an age demographic.

You drew the comparison. Again, there is no reasonable comparison. Children remain low risk to covid. Lower than any other age group. This was true before the vaccine and remains true now. This is a fact, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not is irrelevant.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Most at risk now doesn't have to mean co-equal to the same risks faced as the elderly. That's an equivalency you're making.

It means given the lack of approved vaccine and loosened restrictions they currently have the least health options and protections since the start of the pandemic making them the most vulnerable as an age demographic.

Fully vaccinated elderly people are still at a much much higher risk than unvaccinated children. Why would we give the OK to live freely to fully vaccinated elderly people who got vaccinated and took their absolute risk of death down from, say, 5% to 1%, but continue to put restrictions on children that are much closer to 0.0001% or even lower unvaccinated?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Fully vaccinated elderly people are still at a much much higher risk than unvaccinated children. Why would we give the OK to live freely to fully vaccinated elderly people who got vaccinated and took their absolute risk of death down from, say, 5% to 1%, but continue to put restrictions on children that are much closer to 0.0001% or even lower unvaccinated?

And vaccinated children are better off than unvaccinated. So that means that they should be vaccinated right?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

And vaccinated children are better off than unvaccinated. So that means that they should be vaccinated right?

What is the absolute risk reduction for children who get vaccinated?

Not that 4 point reduction is for older people (at least over 50). The risk reduction is much lower in people under 50.

 

[Kraz]

You drew the comparison. Again, there is no reasonable comparison. Children remain low risk to covid. Lower than any other age group. This was true before the vaccine and remains true now. This is a fact, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not is irrelevant.

46 per day ICU Florida and rising, if accurate and applicable, (the data for this hasn't been challenged by you at all) indicates a higher risk than what you're claiming. Then again, standards do vary on what constitutes a public health response. Either way, ignoring new data to fit previously held facts can have problematic results, like policy driven facts.

 

[BouncyFrag]

They should apply the same logic to people who died after getting a vaccine that they applied to Covid. Died by lightning / motorcycle accident? Covid death. Died after getting a shot? Vaccine death

If only. With the covid deaths, they needed the inflated death count to push the fear and now there is too much money on the line for Big Pharma and their multi billion dollar vaccine program to face any scrutiny. That’s why we see the media and politicians doing everything they can to divide the vaccinated vs unvaccinated to keep us distracted. It is an effective tactic as the sheep are completely oblivious to it. The medical industrial complex doesn’t fuck around.

 

[Nobody_Important]

What is the absolute risk reduction for children who get vaccinated?

Not that 4 point reduction is for older people (at least over 50). The risk reduction is much lower in people under 50.

Good lord


The risk is lower. You know it is, but you still have to argue about it.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Seems like a fair policy

 

[RoboFu]

What is the absolute risk reduction for children who get vaccinated?

Not that 4 point reduction is for older people (at least over 50). The risk reduction is much lower in people under 50.

you do know many of those inflammation cases in teens turned out to be coincidental and caused by other issues.

And no im not going to get you the data you can look it up yourself.

I sure hope no one who is unvaccinated reads into your bs and ends up in a hospital ( over 90% unvaccinated patients)

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Good lord


The risk is lower. You know it is, but you still have to argue about it.

How much lower? This is important information whether you care or not. We know it's a lot less already in the wider <50 group. What is it in <18 or <12?

you do know many of those inflammation cases in teens turned out to be coincidental and caused by other issues.

And no im not going to get you the data you can look it up yourself.

I sure hope no one who is unvaccinated reads into your bs and ends up in a hospital ( over 90% unvaccinated patients)

"Coincidental" Huh... How very convenient.

Well, I hope you let the various world governments putting out warnings on the vaccines about it. They will surely be thankful for your insights.

 

[ManaByte]

Seems like a fair policy

 

[Infiltrator Irelia]

If only. With the covid deaths, they needed the inflated death count to push the fear and now there is too much money on the line for Big Pharma and their multi billion dollar vaccine program to face any scrutiny. That’s why we see the media and politicians doing everything they can to divide the vaccinated vs unvaccinated to keep us distracted. It is an effective tactic as the sheep are completely oblivious to it. The medical industrial complex doesn’t fuck around.

I thought conspiracy theories were a no go. You've crept dangerously close to the line and then jumped over it.

 

[Kraz]

Fully vaccinated elderly people are still at a much much higher risk than unvaccinated children. Why would we give the OK to live freely to fully vaccinated elderly people who got vaccinated and took their absolute risk of death down from, say, 5% to 1%, but continue to put restrictions on children that are much closer to 0.0001% or even lower unvaccinated?

Elderly have the best health options and protections given their circumstance in our first world high vaccinated societies. There is still controls over care homes and such. If schools keep contact tracing, isolation with families taking decent responsibility for themselves., 12+ getting vaccinated it shouldn't be too bad and require any great burden. Still doesn't mean 12 and under don't have the least options and aren't living in the most unrestricted stage of the pandemic and the health mandates that protect them are vulnerable. Seemingly already inadequate in some cases.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Seems like a fair policy

Definitely harsh, but I can get where Lowes is coming from. The unvaccinated workers are more of a risk to themselves and others. And if they are more likely to get sick then they are more likely to miss work. Having to get shifts covered at the last minute in retail is a shit show and results in poor performance for the store and the employees.


It makes sense they wouldn't want to deal with it.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

If only. With the covid deaths, they needed the inflated death count to push the fear and now there is too much money on the line for Big Pharma and their multi billion dollar vaccine program to face any scrutiny. That’s why we see the media and politicians doing everything they can to divide the vaccinated vs unvaccinated to keep us distracted. It is an effective tactic as the sheep are completely oblivious to it. The medical industrial complex doesn’t fuck around.

As someone with a over a decade in the “medical industrial complex”: nah

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Seems like a fair policy

Looking forward to see them do this with yearly influenza shots, too. Booster shots for COVID first though!

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Looking forward to see them do this with yearly influenza shots, too. Booster shots for COVID first though!

Are we back on the COVID = flu bullshit wagon?

 

[Singular7]

My wife's company said "both shots by October 1st or you're fired".

Part of me says, OK, I'll put 10k towards a lawyer and see what happens.

Part of me says, OK, we'll just find her a new job.

I'm pretty sure this is a violation of Nuremberg, and just basic human rights, especially since she's 100% permanent remote.

A 99.7% survivable virus too. Weird stuff!

Australia locking down for 2 deaths a day... very very weird stuff. Global unified medical-state-big-pharma messaging system to convince me I'm about to die for a 99.7% survival cold.

.... very very weird stuff.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Looking forward to see them do this with yearly influenza shots, too. Booster shots for COVID first though!

It's not the same thing. Jesus. H. Christ.

 

[WoJ]

Does anyone know where I can find up-to-date vaccination data by age for Florida (or all states, for that matter if available in one location)?

Florida has a weekly report they issue on covid data including vaccinations herehttps://floridahealthcovid19.gov/

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It's not the same thing. Jesus. H. Christ.

So what is the threshold? There should be some objective criteria here, no?

We're seriously talking about waning immunity and needing booster shots after 6 months or so, so what is the actual requirement and justification?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

My wife's company said "both shots by October 1st or you're fired".

Part of me says, OK, I'll put 10k towards a lawyer and see what happens.

Part of me says, OK, we'll just find her a new job.

I'm pretty sure this is a violation of Nuremberg, and just basic human rights, especially since she's 100% permanent remote.

A 99.7% survivable virus too. Weird stuff!

Australia locking down for 2 deaths a day... very very weird stuff. Global unified medical-state-big-pharma messaging system to convince me I'm about to die for a 99.7% survival cold.

.... very very weird stuff.

I posed this question yesterday, but it didn't get much traction: What is the best explanation in favor of this massively increased push for vaccination mandates in light of the recent discoveries that breakthrough infections and transmission from fully vaccinated people are higher than initially expected? I'm trying to understand the logic, because it seems rather contradictory.

 

[Singular7]

I posed this question yesterday, but it didn't get much traction: What is the best explanation in favor of this massively increased push for vaccination mandates in light of the recent discoveries that breakthrough infections and transmission from fully vaccinated people are higher than initially expected? I'm trying to understand the logic, because it seems rather contradictory.

The explanation quite obviously has nothing to do with science or medicine.

We can't talk about the logic anymore. We can't even talk about the science.

There is only compliance. It's really quite brilliant, because to ask questions means you are trying to kill grandma and somehow don't 'believe in science'

(an actual conundrum, since science isn't really ever settled [look at the history of the science of cholesterol in humans], and is predicated on asking challenging questions)

 

[poppabk]

They should apply the same logic to people who died after getting a vaccine that they applied to Covid. Died by lightning / motorcycle accident? Covid death. Died after getting a shot? Vaccine death

Again we literally know how many people got better erections after getting the COVID vaccination, we know with insane granularity what effects the vaccination has. COVID deaths meanwhile align very well with overall excess deaths.
You are just sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'La, la, la' because you don't want to accept the reality of the situation.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That was a fantastic thread.

 

[Singular7]

That was a fantastic thread.

Perfect summary of the events of the last 5 years. One big nonsense machine.

 

[Nobody_Important]

That's basically what this whole thread has become. It's the same arguments over and over. The only thing that changes are the dates on the articles and tweets.

 

[Jaysen]

Dawg it’s not a narrative it’s the hard numbers, a bunch of overblown anecdotal stories being spread around to prove a point doesn’t change that.

As opposed to people pointing to a tiny number of cases of people dying from the vaccine in a sad attempt to prove that being anti-vax is justified?

 

[\m/etalStorm]

If you think the people who restrict, oppress, fan fear, censor critics and make billions while conducting the largest medical experiment in history are the good guys, then their brainwashing worked very well on you.
That's all i ever need to say about this worldwide situation.

 

[ManaByte]

experiment

This is how you spot an anti-vaxxer, especially on social media.

 

[Nobody_Important]

This is how you spot an anti-vaxxer, especially on social media.

That or a person trolling for reactions. It's honestly a toss up.

 

[iorek21]

Just got my first dose of CoronaVac here in Brazil; seems to be one of the most "traditional" vaccines out there so I'm kinda glad I got that.

Feeling some pain in my arm, but I guess thats common.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That's basically what this whole thread has become. It's the same arguments over and over. The only thing that changes are the dates on the articles and tweets.

Not really, the situation is ever changing and people are reacting to it/sharing information. Just go back to mid-June and the tone from US posters is completely different.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Not really, the situation is ever changing and people are reacting to it/sharing information. Just go back to mid-June and the tone from US posters is completely different.

The same people who have been against the vaccine are still against it and the people who support it's implementation still do. You even still have the same ridiculous flu comparisons that we had when all of this started last year popping up now and then. People still ridiculously calling it an "experiment". Masks are still being fussed over, so is businesses requiring vaccinations, etc etc. It's all the same stuff just on a different day.


It's people talking at each other instead of with each other.

 

[Singular7]

If you think the people who restrict, oppress, fan fear, censor critics and make billions while conducting the largest medical experiment in history are the good guys, then their brainwashing worked very well on you.
That's all i ever need to say about this worldwide situation.

Yes! The most bizarro event in human history.

I've had every vaccine known to man too .... yet I'm called anti-vax because I don't want to participate in this experiment. Most vaccines are approved after 10 years of development!

Pardon me for not trusting the former President's "warp speed" cancellation of standard scientific methodology.

Quite unsettling the US ruling in 1986 where you can't sue a vaccine company.

If that was overturned, at least I would have recourse, and *maybe* would let them experiment on me (if the alternative is being a yellow-star persona-non-grata who can't buy/sell in society)

 

[12Goblins]

Part of me says, OK, I'll put 10k towards a lawyer and see what happens.

Part of me says, OK, we'll just find her a new job.

I'm pretty sure this is a violation of Nuremberg, and just basic human rights, especially since she's 100% permanent remote.

A 99.7% survivable virus too. Weird stuff!

Australia locking down for 2 deaths a day... very very weird stuff. Global unified medical-state-big-pharma messaging system to convince me I'm about to die for a 99.7% survival cold.

.... very very weird stuff.

you might be right, but part of the problem is that people are now that much more willing to give up their civil liberties and dismiss your concerns as selfish and ignorant seeing that you've been crying foul every step of the way. grats you owned urself and fucked it up for the rest of us, but at least you and pea brains like this guy get to validate their dumbass beliefs about a "Bio-Medical Security State". ultimately though it comes down to you being trapped in your narrow-minded misconceptions of the world and your inability to project that there are well-intentioned people that do things that benefit people they don't know (HOW SOCIETY GROWS GREAT--while you contribute nothing)

 

[Singular7]

you might be right, but part of the problem is that people are now that much more willing to give up their civil liberties and dismiss your concerns as selfish and ignorant seeing that you've been crying foul every step of the way. grats you owned urself and fucked it up for the rest of us, but at least you and pea brains like this guy get to validate their dumbass beliefs about a "Bio-Medical Security State". ultimately though it comes down to you being trapped in your narrow-minded misconceptions of the world and your inability to project that there are well-intentioned people that do things that benefit people they don't know (HOW SOCIETY GROWS GREAT--while you contribute nothing)

So basically a run-on-sentence of ad hominem..

Convincing! I have no interest in arguing, just looking for basic human decency and letting me make medical decisions for myself.

IF this were a 75% death sentence virus, I would let them experiment on me.

It's 99.7% survival. 100% for a person of my age / weight / health. Get the vaccine! Then you're safe from boogey men like me.

 

[Nobody_Important]

So basically a run-on-sentence of ad hominem..

Convincing!

You keep calling it an "experiment". I doubt there is any chance of convincing you of anything.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The same people who have been against the vaccine are still against it and the people who support it's implementation still do. You even still have the same ridiculous flu comparisons that we had when all of this started last year.


It's people talking at each other instead of with each other.

Yes, some people have not been convinced to change their positions. What a surprise on the Internet. That's still just one aspect of this thread.

Still lots of great info and discussion for those who are interested.

 

[Singular7]

You keep calling it an "experiment". I doubt there is any chance of convincing you of anything.

Correct -- standard procedure for an FDA approved vaccine is animal trials, then human trials, and 10 years of long-term data.

This is former President's 'warp speed' new technology that bypassed all protocols.

It's an experiment. I support it too! I think people should be able to take whatever chemicals they want into their body.

I also believe that a person should be free to choose what chemicals they don't want in their body. The state shouldn't be able to force a medical procedure on a person, or prevent them from electing one.

The basics of Nuremberg, which I would highly suggest reading the 10 points that came out of that trial.